anti-depressant

Bluegaze,

Injured outrage now....I`m sorry, but I find this becoming less and less credible with every interact.

Spirit,

Oh please....as if het women dont swagger themselves...your post sounds more like a straight guy trying to imagine 1. what het women think/do/are 2. what lesbian women think/do/are. Thats ultimately what gave both of you up....you operate on the notion of difference....

Re: # 24
Saminasha,
What in the hell are you on? I think that Spirit and myself have tried to explain in so many ways what this is all about, but perhaps you just don`t WANT to understand. What is it that you don`t understand, precisely? I wonder where you are based and what your exposure is to gay issues. What is pejorative about being called a ``dyke`` or ``butch`` if i am one and feel comfortable with it, what is your issue with it? Or are you just doing this for lack of anything better to do?
F.

Bluegaze,

In other words, you want to be able to use pejorative stereotypes, but shame on anyone who calls you on it?

Re: # 21
> spirit seems to assume that only glbt relationships are fraught with
> the dynamics of power struggle, gender fluidity
No, I did not say that. I said the poem is about butch/femme dynamics which are really very unique to lesbian culture and come with their own issues. The butch/femme relationship is very different from the heterosexual man/woman relationship, it`s a separate subculture with its own nuances. This is the part that is truly authentic and unique to this piece. The butch woman finds herself having to ``compete with a man`` -- there`s a dark irony underlying the ``your prince will come`` line here. The straight girl, I`m imagining, is totally fascinated with this woman, with the butch mystique -- the confident swagger, the sure-footing, the tilt of the head, maybe a smirk, the posturing, the soft curves and the strong arms exemplifying the contradictions of a butch woman`s singularity, the combination of roughness and sweetness, the gallant raunchiness in private moments (in old-school butch/femme roles, sexual pleasure is supposed to be focused on the femme). This is what the ``I don my butch self for you . . . / a sewn patch on your feminine suit`` part reminded me of. There`s something about butch masculinity (and it`s different from male masculinity) that even straight women would find attractive . . . but ultimately she still wants a man, hence the irony.

The rest is your subjective opinion that you`re entitled to of course.

Re: # 21
Well what can I say? I don`t want to defend my work, because I don`t think that it`s all that great, anyway. What is actually more interesting is what has come out regarding it in all the interacts. Of course that includes you too. Now, however adolescent my comments may seem or for that matter anything I say regarding my poem, I do think that a piece of creativity whether it is good or bad is at times just that. As a friend of mine once told me if you analyze a butterfly by dissecting it, it will actually ruin it. So, please let the piece i wrote stay as it is, after all it`s an expression of my creativity and to change it or to justify it will kill its importance for me. I am not looking to make it technically sound in any way. It`s raw and i like it like that not because it is well written but because it`s true. Be gentle with it.

Bluegaze,

I`m still not sure why you wont address that obviously misplaced line in this piece, but argue for words that are more adolescent boy than anything else....My comment about sending this piece to Reznor was tongue in cheek...check him, PJ Harvey, Bjork, Radiohead, or Tricky if you want to see it done right..

which brings me to my next point; dont rely on other people to do your work for you...in spirit `s comments ie spirit seems to assume that only glbt relationships are fraught with the dynamics of power struggle, gender fluidity...YOUR work actually is interesting in the first few lines, but quickly settles for rock cliches. Right at ``demon of sadness``, in fact. You start with the Velvet Underground and you end with arena rock....and I havent learned anything or have been startled by an AUTHENTIC revelation or insight...

At the worst, this could be running on the same mo of that french slasher Haute Tensione...which does the deed of denying and pathologizing female desire in a very convoluted manner....

Re: # 16
For a detailed response please see comments by Spiritofnow. Let me just say two things: 1. I did not ``complain`` about the editors, it was in my response to someone here that I mentioned what had happened.
2. Your comments are valid only because you have a right to your own opinion. I really don`t care whether people think that the piece I wrote is shitty or whatever. What matters is to be able to use creativity as a vent more than a commercial venture or for the sake of entertaining others. I hate being bound by traditional notions of writing. Whether the text has risen fully or not is subjective and will change from one person to the next, in any case. Funny thing is that your own opinion about this poem has changed from one interact to the next.
If you want to understand what is going on in the poem, Spiritofnow has explained it pretty well. You are no one to judge whether something is authentic or not, but let me say, this is coming out of personal experience. I relate to the word Butch, so it is my reality how can you tell me whether it is right or wrong?

Spiritofnow!!
Hey
Glad you joined! Thanks for the very detailed response to Saminasha. I could not have done it better myself.

Re: # 16

> First of all, ``butch`` coming from a straight girl or guy has pejorative
> denotations...like ``queer`` or ``nancy boy`` or ``fag hag``....your poem
> tends to bear that tone out.
And a very major part of queer culture is to reclaim all the above words as compliments. :-) Words like ``queer``, ``boi``, ``butch``, ``dyke`` and so on are reclaimed as our own, as a way of being in-your-face. As I read the poem, I certainly didn`t think the word `butch` was used in a derogatory way. I saw it as illustrative of butch/femme dynamics in lesbian culture.

> I didnt comment on this before, but this poem doesnt seem very
> authentic or written with knowledge of the world you are representing.
I`m not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you mean, then I have to disagree. For one thing, I`d really like to hear what makes you a judge of ``authentic knowledge`` of the world she`s representing. The scenario described in the poem is a common one found in queer culture as I`ve explained below. And clearly, *she`s* the representative of that world, and I`m sure what she`s written has some basis in experience.

> It seems more like your attempt at lampooning what you seem to find
> ridiculous about the convoluted relationship that you are rendering
That *is* what she`s doing -- that`s kind of the point, being stuck in a meaningless relationship where one person is just using the other person for their kicks. Throw in the complications of butch/femme dynamics and the difficulty of defining labels when it comes to sexuality (is the straight girl just confused? is she a closet lesbian? is she bisexual? is she still straight because maybe she just views the butch lesbian as a man?), and you`ve got a right old postmodern mess on your hands. Anyway, I found the poem quite thought-provoking. :-)

> I`m still not completely sure whats going on.
Straight femme girl is using butch lesbian as her ``lesbian experiment`` -- she`s interested in experimenting but has no intention of taking it further than that. The butch mystique is a very important part of this poem -- many straight femme girls find butch women attractive because it`s hard to tell them apart from men and boys given their masculine appearance. Very common occurrence in lesbian culture. :-)

> The ensuing confusion for your reader may give you a quick thrill,
> but in terms of writing, clarity is paramount
I think what you`re saying is unfair here. It`s a judgment call, telling her she wants a quick thrill. The reason why the poem may have been unclear is because most people are not familiar with queer culture and dynamics, and queer terminology. Someone who`s steeped in it (me) would have no problems understanding it.

> It seems that you changed your piece willingly. So...whats the complaint again?
That the title should have been changed in the first place. In fact the poem would have been a lot clearer if ``for a butch`` had been in the title. I can see why the editors would have a problem with ``cum``, but it`s absolutely beyond me why they should have a problem with ``butch``, a term that simply indicates an alternative gender performance. Yes, I realize it used to be used in a derogatory sense, but in queer culture the words ``butch`` and ``dyke`` have very much been reclaimed as positive.

Really the only problem I had with the poem was the ``do ya hear`` -- the ``ya`` as temporal points out tends to jump out at the reader but maybe that was the poet`s intention anyway. Also, I`m very squeamish about words like ``cum``, so maybe I`m a little glad Fatimah changed that, heheh, but that`s just me.

Hey, Fatimah, next time I`ll write the cliff notes for your poetry. ;-)

Hey, Fatimah,

Nice poem, although I`m disappointed to hear they made you change the title. Why on earth would they do that? It`s the Internet for heaven`s sake. And I thought Chowk was supposed to be a pretty open-minded place.

I liked this part best: ``must be amusing / to fulfill your aging fantasies with my boy-like charms, no?`` You should write lyrics for my band some day. ;-)

Ref: #10 by BeeJay

> I thought that South Asia has no (out of closet) lesbians, but I must be
> wrong, of course.
Yep, there are plenty of us around. I run a mailing list for Pakistani lesbians/queer women/transfolk.

> Perhaps a technicality, but I suppose the term would be a “bi” rather than
> “straight” for the other woman (and perhaps that’s why you put it
> within quotes).
Not necessarily. Lots of people engage in homosexual behaviour but self-identify as heterosexual.

bluegaze,

When the editors at Chowk posted my piece, ``Dude, Where`s My Reference Point?``, they edited out a para-for reasons, I imagine, concerning brevity, space or possibly a political position with which they did not agree. I was pretty happy to have my piece on fp and I posted the excised para in one of my responses.

There are probably many reasons why you were asked to revise two words in your piece. First of all, ``butch`` coming from a straight girl or guy has pejorative denotations...like ``queer`` or ``nancy boy`` or ``fag hag``....your poem tends to bear that tone out. I didnt comment on this before, but this poem doesnt seem very authentic or written with knowledge of the world you are representing. It seems more like your attempt at lampooning what you seem to find ridiculous about the convoluted relationship that you are rendering-and I`m still not completely sure whats going on. The ensuing confusion for your reader may give you a quick thrill, but in terms of writing, clarity is paramount-even if the perspective is of a girl who likes boys to be girls or whatever...and ``cum`` or ``butch`` dont mean a thing when it comes to a text that hasnt risen fully...


It seems that you changed your piece willingly. So....whats the complaint again?

Dear Saminasha,
The editors at chowk asked me to change the title of my poem which was, ``Anti-depressant for a Butch`` - i agreed to change this
The last line where it now says ``come`` was originally ``cum`` The rest I told them I did not want to tone down. comments?
Fatimah

Bluegaze,

Seriously, your comments about censorship should be as well supported as possible. Could you please detail:

* what `changes`` the Chowk Staff made
* did they inform you of the changes they were making
* did you acquiesce or object then
* and why are you crying out loud now?

thanks!

Bluegaze,

The editors at chowk suggested you tone this down? Any corroboration?

Dear Beejay,

Thanks for your comments. A poem is a poem. what does this have to do with having outlets for lesbians? I am not sure I understand where you are coming from. In any case, I am sure you are not totally oblivious to the gay movement in Delhi and Bombay? There are a bunch of organizations that work on such issues, so in Inida one finds outlets which are more organized than in Pakistan.

Regarding your comments about the editors at Chowk. I totally agree. I had to fight with them to get this piece in and that too with some changes. It amazes me that when one talks about creative and free expression they are not totally clear about what that should entail. Yes, the readers should not be protected from anything that is too jarring, critical, harsh, open or raw. This is precisely why the middle class morality rules supreme in the sub-continent. When i told the editors that i was not willing to tone the poem down, they thought i was brave. I wondered what that meant. Why did they call me that for something as simple as saying that I would like my piece to be published as is or not. and who was out to get me?

BeeJay #10:

wait

you picked up the ball and are running in the wrong direction:)

i am reiterating two things...words as a tool in the hands of a writer or poet ...and...their ability to communicate with the reader... why else would a piece be published?...

rgds

t