Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?

For those who are going ga ga over peace with pakis - here is a reminder:

http://nation.com.pk/daily/june-2005/15/columns1.php

``From the point of view of Pakistan`s Islamist militants and their backers in the establishment, Jihad is only on hold but not yet over. The major Kashmiri Jihadi groups retain their infrastructure that could be pressed into service at a future date. Afghanistan`s Taliban also continue to find safe haven in parts of Pakistan as recently as the spring of 2005. ``

Fools sitting in delhi have started visaless travel for pakis. So good luck!!!

This is why Pakiland wants Kashmir so bad...It`s not about their fellow muslims or civilizational relationships or any such BS...It`s about the water that flows from Indian Kashmir into Pakistan..Pakistan`s lifeline...

War over water

ASIF J. MIR

A water war between India and Pakistan is inevitable in the future. Apart from other native, vernacular, political, and national sound reasoning, Pakistan`s prime interest was to secure its water resources.
Though Kashmir is a political conflict, one of its dimensions is linked to water, because all water resources for India and Pakistan generate from Kashmir. The head-works of main Pakistani rivers originate in India.
The Indus River Basin has been an area of conflict between India and Pakistan. Spanning 1,800 miles, the river and its tributaries together make up one of the largest irrigation canals in the world. The basin provides water to millions of people in northwestern India and Pakistan. Dams and canals built in order to provide hydropower and irrigation has dried up stretches of the Indus River. Water projects have further caused the displacement of people and have contributed to the destruction of the ecosystem in the Indus plain.
The enmity between India and Pakistan over water started early when India discontinued water supplies to Pakistan. Hard bargaining and the mediation of the World Bank led to the world acclaimed Indus Water Treaty in 1960. The treaty allocated the three Eastern Rivers - Ravi, Sutlej and Beas - to India, the three Western rivers - Indus, Jhelum and Chenab - to Pakistan. Pakistan was to meet its requirements of its Eastern river canals from the Western rivers by building replacement works. Safeguards were included in the treaty to ensure unrestricted flow of waters in the Western rivers. Also both parties were to regularly exchange flow-data of rivers, canals and streams. A permanent commission known as the Indus Waters Commission was constituted to resolve the disputes between the parties. This treaty is globally respected that it has survived wars and periods of acute tension between the two hostile neighbours. However, the treaty has encountered hiccups wherein some contentious issues have cropped up.

Re: # 282 jang

You are bullshitting again. What happened in Europe in the past is irrelavent. Just look at the way they`ve handled the Dutch and French rejection of European integration and compare it to ``my backyard`` and the 600 000 raping, murdering, torturing Indian troops in Kashmir.

dyno, europeans clearly have a different trajectory, and indians have a different. they have done 2 world wars, and killed 7 million jews and others in a few months just 60 years ago. so you go study whats happening in holland, afterall its west-looking ;-). whats with the foam on you mouth dino? you should be more focused on your backyard, and learn about that.

Re: # 277 stuka ``Because Pakistan is not Pyo di Jagir of Jinnah. He may have a view but your government as a whole decides. Same thing in India``

Nonsense. These weren`t Nehru`s personal ramblings. They were official goverrnment statements made at various times to foriegn heads of state, before the country on the national media, and before the national parliament. Which ever way you spin it only Kashmiris have the right to decide Kashmir`s future just as only Punjabis, not Madrasis or Biharis, had the right to decide Punjab`s future in 1947.

#276 jang ``Nehru made some speeched in early times, when the nation was taking shape. Now, ksshmir his not his personal jagir. Later, a concensus was built about kashmir as the nation matured.``

Please see reply to stuka above, freakin moron. ``nation taking shape`` ``nation maturing`` ``nation greying`` ``nation balding`` ``nation farting``... What kind of irrelevent babble is that, retard? Try to learn something from recent events in Holland and the EU.

Stuka #277: ``I was being sarcastic on the issue of South Iindians being dark and ugly as that seems to be some kind of consensus in Pakistan.``

How long were you in Pakistan to make this assumption that Pakistanis have this consensus.

``people did not believe I was Hindu``

Your being bigger and not darker skinned or not bigger and darker skinned, has nothing to do with you being a Hindu. Or not being one. People don`t change skin color or start growing if they change their religion. At least not as far as I know.........Though there maybe some religion that can do that..........

People`s skin color etc. is decided by their genes, which are usually defined by the ethnic community their family belonged to. Which are defined by, in general, the civilization they are a part of. Your being taller and fairer than someone from Bihar proves the argument that I am trying to make............

``The races of Iindia are mixed and dispersed.``

They are not mixed and dispersed yet. People can move from one part of India to another, for jobs etc., hence they are mixing and dispersing. But this is a new phenomenon. Barely a few decades old. It is competing against thousands of years of lack of dispersal and mixing.

It will take some time. It will actually happen faster in Pakistan, since it is much less diverse. A few hundred years from now, if Pakistan and India keep their borders intact, this mixing will have resulted in the emergence of a new language(s), a new culture, a new ethnicity, etc.

At which time, India could be one civilization. However, that is in the future. You civilizational heritage is decided by your past............And that past covers hudreds to thousands of years...........

Re: # 277 stuka ``I was being sarcastic on the issue of South Iindians being dark and ugly as that seems to be some kind of consensus in Pakistan. ``

So South Indians aren`t dark? What the hell is wrong with you? It is just a MYTH that Indians are a brown race. This is how they like to project themselves in their movies and media. Outside of a few border states they are as black as Africans. Even most North Indians are Sansritized Dravidians rather than Indo-Aryans.

``Heck, when Ii was at Daata Sahib in Lahore, people did not believe I was Hindu coz I was bigger and lighter skinned and their perception of Hindus was that we are scrawny and dark.``

Stuka, Hindu is a religon not a race. This is not a diffucult concept and I don`t understand why you have such difficulty grasping it. With roots in Jhelium racially you are no different to the Lahoris you met at Data Darbar and ARE different to the vast majority of Indian Hindus, whether you like to admit it or not.


``Gujjars range from West Punjab to Bihar, Drvidians from Punjab to Tamil Nadu. Where does that leave your theories of Punjabis versus Biharis then? Are you going to call Yohana a Tamilian even if he is a Chamar?``

Your mind has been brainwashed into pulp. Gujjars , Rajputs and other Hun-Sythnic groups have their home in North East Pakistan and North West India. They are NOT found all over the subcontinent. And even if they were, so what? Punjabi gujjars are proudly Punjabi and I assume Rajsthani Gujjars are proudly Rajasthani. Most Germans, Englishmen and the American elite are from the same Anglo-Saxon stock. Does that mean Germany, Engliand America have to be one country???

It would be stupid to deny racial overlap in South Asia but its also foolish to pretend there are no differences. And more importantly than race there are big cultural differences. How many Biharis listen, read or understand Waris Shah`s Heer Ranjha, for instance?


The bottom line is that Kashmiris, Biharis, Punjabis, Tamils etc are all different nations. If they wish to live in one united South Asian state all well and good. But no one has the right to FORCE them to do so.

#275 Harish,

I don`t have the time to argue with you anymore. But I just want to say that unlike you I am not justifying or making excuses for my country`s crimes, such as the mass murders in Bengal in 1971.

#274 Arjun wrote ``Try going to the tribal areas and see American fighters/helicopters bombing the cr@p out of Pakistani citizens in Pakistani territory.``

The Americans don`t need to bomb the hell out of Pakistani citizens. The focking pimp Musharaf has got the Pakistani armed forces doing that for them. BTW, I know people serving in Wana so don`t presume to teach me about what is going on over there.

Romair:

I was being sarcastic on the issue of South Iindians being dark and ugly as that seems to be some kind of consensus in Pakistan. Heck, when Ii was at Daata Sahib in Lahore, people did not believe I was Hindu coz I was bigger and lighter skinned and their perception of Hindus was that we are scrawny and dark.

If you notice, the leading Ladies of Bollywood are South Indian. And they have an all Iindia appeal and play North Indian charachters..Rekha, Sridevi, Hema Malini et al.

Dionysus: That is the whole point. The races of Iindia are mixed and dispersed. Gujjars range from West Punjab to Bihar, Drvidians from Punjab to Tamil Nadu. Where does that leave your theories of Punjabis versus Biharis then? Are you going to call Yohana a Tamilian even if he is a Chamar?


With regard to Nehru`s speech on Kashmir, what happened to Jinnah`s speech on secularism that Yasser keeps posting? U guys still became Islamic republic right? Because Pakistan is not Pyo di Jagir of Jinnah. He may have a view but your government as a whole decides. Same thing in India.

dyno,

Nehru made some speeched in early times, when the nation was taking shape. Now, ksshmir his not his personal jagir. Later, a concensus was built about kashmir as the nation matured. Now in pakistan i understan speeched like the Aug 11 by jinnah or one in Dacca University are highly respected and implemented, even to detriment which leads to losing of half of its (darker) polulation. But india is different, kinda obtuse to speeches..many are made, sometimes people even clap. But on major issues, an effort to reach a consensus is made. U see, we want to avoid civil wars if we can. Pakistanis, especially panjabis, coming from martial stock (except for a few chamars like Yohana) are more risk-taking as has been demonstrated. So dont expect banias to behave like proud warriors ;-)

#270 by dionysus

[You really are a dumb fuddu, aren`t you?]

Nope. You are the dumb ass who thinks by appealing to our conscience, you can get on a platter what you couldn’t grab by waging 4 wars.

[This is Pandit Nehru, the father of your country and the leader of your country during the Indian invasion of J & K. His pledges aren`t just his personal pledges, they are the pledges of the Indian government.]

Really? But who cares? Not the India of 2005. If you think Pakiland cares, why don’t you grant independence to your part of Kashmir. And no, just calling it “Azad” doesn’t make it so. Ask the JKLF chief, Amanullah Khan.

[Yes, all these years and you still haven`t honoured your pledges to the Kashmiris. In fact, you`ve now started murdering, torturing and raping them in order to avoid honouring your pledges to them. You people have no shame.]

Coming from a Paki, this is sorta rich. You folks, who had no qualms about raping and murdering 3 million unarmed Bangladeshi men, women, and even children have no moral right to complain about it.

[It would be a bit dumb to appeal to the conciences of people who having once made solemn pledges to the Kashmiri nation are now mass-murdering them in order to avoid honouring those pledges, woudn`t it?]

If Pakiland is that conscientious, how come it separated the Northern Areas from Kashmir? Heck, you folks even gifted away a part of it to your masters, China.

[But FYI, the first attempt to grab Kashmir from India came in 1965, several years after India all-of-a-sudden started declaring Kashmir to its be own part.]

Really, then why did the so-called tribal lashkars invade Kashmir when Pakiland had signed a standstill agreement with the Maharaja of Kashmir?

[Nothing we do can invalidate or free you from them.]

And no amount of impotent seething is going to get India to hand over Kashmir to Pakiland on a platter.

#273 by dionysus on June 14, 2005 4:35am PT


hahahaha..so we should get the Kashmiris a teeny weeny bit of autonomy by totally sacrificing our own independence


Your Kashmir policy, encouraging Islamic fundamentalism in paki society to create a suitable environment to breed jihadis, has already cost you your independence...don`t believe me? Try going to the tribal areas and see American fighters/helicopters bombing the cr@p out of Pakistani citizens in Pakistani territory....

Re: # 271 hindvi ``Pakistan`s best hope of obtaining autonomy for Indian Kashmir lies in changing that view, and that can only occur if economic and tourist barriers between the two countries are dismantled.``

hahahaha..so we should get the Kashmiris a teeny weeny bit of autonomy by totally sacrificing our own independence and exposing our country to the teeming hordes of Hindustan? Yeah right! You guys are just too good! To hell with Kashmir. hahahaha

Re: # 269 paghal kutta


paghal kuttay, if your Indian parliament passes a resolution that says the Earth is flat does that make it the truth? If the Indian parilament passes a resolution declaring Pakistan to be an integral part of India does that mean we shoiuld all make our way westward and empty the country for you ugly blackies ?


And anyway, you missed the entire point of my posting Nehru`s statement, mad dog that you are. Stuka came up with a bullshit argument about why Kashmir was a part of India since the beginning of time. My point was that how come the founder and father of India and the man who got India into Kashmir in the first place, didn`t know anything about these Hindu civilizational arguments.

India has been able to partly sustain its possesion of kashmir thanks to the negative view of pakistan that most Indians possess. Pakistan`s best hope of obtaining autonomy for Indian Kashmir lies in changing that view, and that can only occur if economic and tourist barriers between the two countries are dismantled. This would offcourse involve a tradeoff, where increased dependence on India is traded for economic benefits, lower military spending and autonomy for Kashmir.

Re: # 267 harish

``Nehru, who? Unlike you, we are not hung up on personalities, be it Gandhi, Nehru, or whoever. ``

You really are a dumb fuddu, aren`t you? This isn`t just any personality. This isn`t some Nathoo Raam pakora fryer on some smelly chowk in Delhi. This is Pandit Nehru, the father of your country and the leader of your country during the Indian invasion of J & K. His pledges aren`t just his personal pledges, they are the pledges of the Indian government.

`` In case you missed it, this is circa 2005 and we left behind 1952 some 53 years ago. ``

Yes, all these years and you still haven`t honoured your pledges to the Kashmiris. In fact, you`ve now started murdering, torturing and raping them in order to avoid honouring your pledges to them. You people have no shame.


``However, if you are trying to appeal to our conscience (after having tried thrice to grab Kashmir by force, unsuccessfully if I may add), you`re only deluding yourselves.``

It would be a bit dumb to appeal to the conciences of people who having once made solemn pledges to the Kashmiri nation are now mass-murdering them in order to avoid honouring those pledges, woudn`t it? Clearly such people don`t have a conscience to appeal to.

But FYI, the first attempt to grab Kashmir from India came in 1965, several years after India all-of-a-sudden started declaring Kashmir to its be own part. And futhermore, you have made commitments to the Kashmiris themselves. Nothing we do can invalidate or free you from them.