Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?

Re: # 315
My pleasure, I am moving on...for no one likes to waste time trying to reason with unreasonables

Over the last thirty years, has any Indian or Pakistani ever been swayed by the logic presented by the other side? :)

ALL arguments have been infinitely repeated, are understood by every newborn child in both countries, but surprisingly, continue to be made with great passion as if people had just thought them up!

sif

Since we are so sure - where is the need for a referendum? Anycase - you pakis should be last people demanding such things. I mean you guys are ruled by a tinpot dictator - so why should anybody listen to you? To make matters worse - even the tinpot mushy has publicly discarded the idea of referendum.

Like I said - stop shedding crocodile tears. First thing first - get a democracy for yourselves and then we will lprobably isten your sub story about ``referendum for akshmiris``. Until then stop bothering us.

Re: # 313 On referndology you guys are an expert especially democrats of the military variey. General Z conducted one and so did the present General M. We will need General M`s expertise on conducting a referendum. Your legal luminaries are also experts at framing referendum questions. Only shortfall is on the part of general public who seem to know more of Indian Army`s atrocities in Kashmir on Kashmiris than of their own on themselves. Subversion of constitution and democracy obviously mean nothing to you. By the way why don`t your APHC brothers take part in elections. If taking part in rigged elections is sin than surely you guys should stop participating in rigged referenda (or is it referendums)?
By the way who invented this phrase ``doctrine of necessity``?

Mohar, the statistics you are referring to are from the survey conducted by indian press, published at the eve of president Mushraf`s visit...its valadity is questionable...to us for you it may not be. Ok if you indians are so sure, why not to have plebesite under neutral observation? Give it a go every thing will come in black and white, and you should not be afraid as you say Kashmiris have learnt!
Regarding the other two responces, including that of you mohar, I feel sorry, for education, culture and values do not permit me to go this level. Better behave, get real and talk sense.

Re: # 311 southasian

Sifjal, like all pakis when it comes to kashmir, is a jacka$$. The story never changes. It`s the same old BS about muslims - the same old Acquired Victim Syndrome. These guys have been sponsoring a violent jihad for years and now that it failed - they have started breast-beating about ``will of kashmiris``.

Re: # 308 Sifjal the only ones who were thrown out of their houses in Kashmir were Kashmiri Pandits. For all I know your freedom fighters are not fighting for them nor are you Pakistanis shedding tears for them.

Re: # 308 sif
//...Indians today do announce for accepting the will of Kashmiries and give in, their image will not go down in the eyes of the world rather enhance,...//

Thanks for the advice - but Indians will decide about that .... And Indians` decision has been very clear - kashmir stays where it is, with india. If any kashmiri is not happy for whatever reasons, he/she can move over to pakistan - that`s why that country was created for - it was created for disgruntled and delusional muslims.

That has been our position all the time - nothing has changed and nothing will change. How many times do we have to repeat this?? It`s time for all islamic crocodiles like you to stop shedding false tears about kashmiris[or anybody else]. Nobody gives flying f***.

So stop crying and move on with your life. With time and realization - kashmiris will be just fine..... Actually, they are already beginning to be fine. Here are some quotes, from a paki paper:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-6-2005_pg3_2

``54 percent of Kashmiris in Held Kashmir wanted the LoC to become permanent border while 74 percent Indians, too, wanted it. Only 3 percent Kashmiris in Held Kashmir wanted Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan while 43 percent of them thought of Musharraf as their favourite personality.``

Like I said - Kashmiris have already learnt. So just let them be.

Dear Arjun (ref#302)
I am a researcher and a developer, and a frequent traveller to all of the continents. Mostly to the developed part of the world! I never had any problem before and will never! Just for a change, I suggest you to try and seek the truth in all aspects you have mentioned, for sure, whenever you have the time and willingness to do so. Once you have the light of truth, you will be afraid of no darkness at all may it be from the west, east, north or south!
Hope you find the light
Take care

Hi friends remember if today your neighbour forcefully enters your home and drive some of your family members out, you would not like it. Further, if the neighbour start throwing parties in that home, as a very special place, all new neighbourhood would love to go there and enjoy unaware of the fact that the host is not the real owner of the place. The only people who will never become part of the party enjoying group would be the real home owners, both driven out and left in, and their sincere friends, they would be fighting to get back their home and freedom along with honour and respectability.

Few decades later, if the saga continues, some of the weak family members remained inside the home may give up and accept the new owner, nevertheless those with integrity, strength and honour would never give up their struggle will go on and the support of those driven out would always be there.

The new neighbourhood, party visitors and some ignorant peace lovers may also look at the freedom fighters as troublemakers in the neighbourhood; they may not understand why these few people are fighting and turning such a beautiful home into a shamble. The ‘culprit’ who took over your home would always be showing an innocent face to these new neighbours and visitors seeking their blessing and support against the fighters.

This is what is happening in Kashmir. The people who are fighting in Kashmir against Indian army are not terrorist rather freedom fighters only trying to get back their home and their freedom. Past Indian government and United Nations have on record accepted these facts. All the right-minded people in the world should help the Kashmiries. They have suffered a lot; lets put an end to the continuing suffering of these people. 80,000 (Indian news statistics) to over 200,000 (Pakistani news figures) have been killed, many raped (even Indian army court-martialled some of its soldiers for gang rape), abducted and tortured.

Sincerely, if Indians today do announce for accepting the will of Kashmiries and give in, their image will not go down in the eyes of the world rather enhance, for they say “subha ka bhoola agar shaam ko lot aye tu ussay bhoola nahein kehtey…; though in the Kashmir case this shaam has gone a bit too long…almost 58 years.

#304 by dionysus

[If we`re going to have a friken slanging match, can`t you try to be a bit more creative in your insults instead of repeating the same old crap, you mindless moron?]

Who told you this is a slanging match? With your ranting and raving in impotent rage, you`ve proved that you`re a hijRa, and nothing I call you is going to change that.

#303 by dionysus on June 16, 2005 7:17am PT

``Bite us``

Majority of 1 billion Indians to Pakiland...


Funny how Indians are hateful and celebrate when Kashmiris are killed but Pakis are angels when the completely deny that they train the kashmiri islamic terrorists....

denial is bliss?

#298 by dionysus

its a little hard to understand what you saying, its wrapped in all kinds of insults, references to skinny black asses and such. also, you seem to spell fuck wrong.

in any case, there is a consensus in india that a politically united india is good for its citizenery. our history tell us that when there was political unstability due to weak states in northern india, in medieval and especially post-shahjehan times, the citizens suffered a lot. stable deccani sultanates, for that matter musalman ones at that, were better for its citizenary. you seem to think political instability is droll (and makes you laugh apparently). we differ in our outlook. given the political consensus built in india, and we will defend our worldview with strength, and in time you will see that less bhayyas or madrasis are not that scary...many are working on the kashmir rail projects. they could in time work on amritsar-lahore rail project too, so that we can have a amritsar-nankana shatabdi express. its not very scary, no killing, no ethnic-cleansing.

in return we have a pledge to increse the pentration of panjabi-suit among our women from 60 to 71% by 2010.

Re: # 300 harish ``But all that impotent rage tells us exactly the opposite, you`re losing sleep, and badly at that. Not for nothing are you squirming, you fcuking hijRa, and the sooner you admit it, the better you`ll sleep.``

If we`re going to have a friken slanging match, can`t you try to be a bit more creative in your insults instead of repeating the same old crap, you mindless moron?

Re: # 301 harish ``Funny, coming as it does from a Paki. You folks have turned denial into such a fine art, if Goebbels were alive today, he would be ashamed of himself. ``

HAHAHAHAHA...No Paki or Geoebells can match Indian levels of self-delusion:

``I wish to draw your attention to broadcast on Kashmir which l made last evening. have stated our
Government`s policy and made it clear that we have no desire to impose our will on Kashmir but to
leave final decision to people of Kashmir. l further stated that we have agreed on impartial
international agency like United Nation`, supervising any referendum.``

Pandit Nehru PM of India to Liaqat Ali Khan

#299 by sifzal on June 16, 2005 1:54am PT

That`s right...Indians are hateful and bigoted...

and the people who supported jihad aka islamic terrorism in kashmir, created and wholeheartedly supported the taliban and still think Osama is a hero......they`re just full of love....

The world isn`t buying it...the next time you land at any western airport, they`ll be checking you for rope burn marks..not the hateful bigoted indians....

#299 by sifzal

[I can only say that it hurt to read the response of Harish...bigoted, unreasonable typical indi mentality ensuring no justice or peace to prevail in Pakistani-indian subcontinent.]

Yup. Now that your bleed India policy is biting you in the rear, you play the morality card. Nice try, but no cigar.

[Wake up Harish and get out of this ``we all know...`` stuff. Get real and courageous enough to do research from real historic archives not Indian media fed articles.]

Funny, coming as it does from a Paki. You folks have turned denial into such a fine art, if Goebbels were alive today, he would be ashamed of himself.

[Even your so close friend America does not accept forged papers of Maharaja acceding with India...]

Are you telling us that you`ve been so incompetent that you couldn`t forge similar papers?

BTW, what`s this `India`s close friend America` sh!t? I thought it was Pakiland that was `bestowed` the status of Major Non-NATO Ally.

#298 by dionysus

[I tell you the Kashmiris have themselves to blame for their occupationa nd oppression by India and that I won`t lose a moment`s sleep over what India is doing to them.]

But all that impotent rage tells us exactly the opposite, you`re losing sleep, and badly at that. Not for nothing are you squirming, you fcuking hijRa, and the sooner you admit it, the better you`ll sleep.

I can only say that it hurt to read the response of Harish...bigoted, unreasonable typical indi mentality ensuring no justice or peace to prevail in Pakistani-indian subcontinent. Wake up Harish and get out of this ``we all know...`` stuff. Get real and courageous enough to do research from real historic archives not Indian media fed articles. Even your so close friend America does not accept forged papers of Maharaja acceding with India...

Re: # 296 Some deranged Madrasi wrote ``Suffice it to say that it gives Indians great pleasure to see Pakis squirm and seethe with impotent rage (despite protestations to the contrary) without having the means (or the balls) to change anything on the ground. ``


I tell you I consider Pakistan (as well as India) as nothing more than an accident of history and a failed state. That I find its ideological moorings repellant and many of its action since 1947 even more repellant. I tell you the Kashmiris have themselves to blame for their occupationa nd oppression by India and that I won`t lose a moment`s sleep over what India is doing to them....BUT...YOU...in your infinite sambar eating olly-haried butt-ugly Madrasi wisdom, somehow know better??? Are you fukin mindreader or something?


``Suffice it to say that it gives Indians great pleasure to see Pakis squirm and seethe with impotent rage (despite protestations to the contrary) without having the means (or the balls) to change anything on the ground. ``

My ``rage`` is against arrogant little Indian Nazis like you and Jang. And it sure has hell ain`t impotent. Just check out the lashings on your skinny black Indian arse.


Now you join that fuddu Jang, and fukkk off too.

Dio ji

Nice to see you smiling after fierce fights with us! Keep smiling. It is good for health. And let me tell you that Indians don`t mind if you are having fun in beating us on Kashmir. We know what is right for us and these cyberfights don`t leave any mark. So, relax. And ammunition provided by Nehru is damp. It does not work now since Nehru is not around.
Jai Durge, Kai aaye kai turr gaye!

Now, the issue is that you still have not told about your whereabouts during your absence from chowk. I know it is non of my business but my worry is that you must have been in a very very bad company. Just re read your posts and count number as well as variety of your abuses. It is very undignified and unbecoming to call others pagal kuttay and ch.. etc.

You need to learn the art of riling up opposition without using bad words from our cyber fighters. Be honest and you will agree that arjun-m, jang and aleph null simply excel in that. Come on, gentleman, there is no harm in learning even from enemies.

But yes I do give you high fi and pat on your back for your performance as ` sava lakh se ek larhau`. Single handedly you have been managing your opposition. Bravo.

That reminds me to ask you if you met Wadhawa Singh Babbar in your country during recess. Actually there seems to be something fishy the way you are going on about Sikh cause. Let me assure you that they are very capable of taking care of themselves and are front runners in our country. You don`t know the ground realities. Khalistan website does not give you the truth. And I neither have energy nor time to get into political discourse. But I do enjoy all that on Chowk. So, youngman, please don`t try to provoke Sikhs because they won`t get provoked.

Now, if you are telling me that 20 kms away from border weather suddenly becomes very cool then I do get my doubts. You need to read Ferozk`s I log to know daily temperature. Or you may be living near murree. If yes, I hope you won`t mind hosting me during summers. Do you?

We have plenty of melons and mangoes but alas no Pakistani mangoes. For that matter, you don`t have Dasahari either. Let me know your mailing address and I will send you a `Peti` of these.

Barkhurdar, Khush raho, phalo phulo. And enjoy life. You are a good man.

Regards

#293 by dionysus

[Once his army invades the state your country makes all kinds of pledges to the ``Kashmiris brothers`` and the world to settle the dispute in a honourable fashion according the wishes of your ``Kashmiri brothers``.]

Spoken like a true Paki. We all know it was Pakiland that sent the “tribal lashkars” to take over Kashmir despite Jinnah having signed a standstill agreement with the Maharaja of Kashmir. It was this invasion that forced the Maharaja to accede to India. In response, the Indian Army threw out the so-called “tribals”, and if there wouldn’t have been a ceasefire, India would have retaken “Azad” (haha) Kashmir. But that is another story. Suffice it to say that it gives Indians great pleasure to see Pakis squirm and seethe with impotent rage (despite protestations to the contrary) without having the means (or the balls) to change anything on the ground.

[…..you lanuch another mericless and savage milliary campaign against your ``Kashmir brothers`` that has so far left hundreds of thousand dead, maimed or traumatized.]

The only people I see traumatized here are the ordinary Pakis like you, who can only fume and froth at their mouths without being able to avenge either the “unfair” Partition in which they lost out on Kashmir, Junagadh, Hyderabad Deccan, Gurdaspur, or of course, to top it all, the loss of Bangladesh.

dionysus:

In all honesty, you can`t balme Kashmiris. It was the Maharaja who decided to accede to India. The only Kashmiri you can ``blame`` was Sheikh Abdullah. Nehru made it a condition that he agreed to the accession and he did. Moreover, both Maharaja and Abdullah agreed to a limited accession, Kashmir still had its own Sadr-e-Riyaasat, its flag, its prime minister and its own constitution after accession.

Re: # 292 paghal kuttay, beleive me I won`t lose a second of sleep if the Kashmiris never get their freedom from their Indian occupiers and oppressors. They have to take full responsiblity for the situation they are in. You get what you deserve in this world. Why the hell did they trust India in the first place? Big, big mistake. Now pay the price for it.

But you, my butt ugly Madrasi friend, should feel ashamed of yourself boasting about oppressing and occpying the Kashmiris like that. This is the twenty first, not the first, century we are in now.

Re: # 289 Jang

You are an A-class choootiya. Who do you think you are fooling with these crocodile tears? Your Army demolishes the Golden Temple complex, the holiest site of your ``Sikh brothers``, even Abdali and the Turko-Aghans never dreamed of doing such a thorough demolition job. Then Indian mobs turn on innocent Sikhs all over that hellhole of a country mericilessly murdering and raping people your ``Sikh brothers``. When your ``sikh brothers`` fight back your army launches a savage 10 year mililtary campaign that leaves a quarter of a million of your ``Sikh brothers`` dead, and most of the rest embittered and eternally aliented from India.

But at least East Punjab is legally a part of India, your country`s behaviour in Indian occupied Kashmir is even more disgraceful. Your PM Nehru cons your ``Kashmiri brothers`` into thinking he is their friend who has no ulterior motive and just wants to ``protect`` them from Pakistan. Once his army invades the state your country makes all kinds of pledges to the ``Kashmiris brothers`` and the world to settle the dispute in a honourable fashion according the wishes of your ``Kashmiri brothers``. But then you start backtracking and rigging elections and installing puppet governments to avoid honouring your pledges to your ``Kashmiri brothers`` When finally after nearly half a century of waiting your ``Kashmiris brothers`` get sick of all this and demand you leave their country you lanuch another mericless and savage milliary campaign against your ``Kashmir brothers`` that has so far left hundreds of thousand dead, maimed or traumatized.

You are a fuckin disgrace and your country is a fuckin disgrace. Now fok off.

#290 by dionysus on June 15, 2005 8:13am PT


Vaisay, beating Indians up on Kashmir is a very easy source of fun and amusement, ``We have given our solemn pledge


Being that India has no intention of giving up it`s part of Kashmir, the joke`s on you.

If the Indian position on Kashmir is a source for your amusement, you`ll be able to have fun and amusement for a long long time.....laugh it up...

#290, you find kasmiri plight amusing? shame on you.

Re: # 288

Hello Humsab ji, how are you? Vaisay, beating Indians up on Kashmir is a very easy source of fun and amusement, and I enjoy it, so why not? . Pandit Nehru provided us with lots of ammunation. I sometimes wonder whose side he was on. Or that if he really was deciving Sheikh Abbullah and the Kashmiris, which now seems to be something beyond doubt, why did he make all those extemely embarrasing statements. ``We have given our solemn pledge, to the Kashmiris and the World. As a great nation we cannot go back out of it.`` hahahahahaha...love it. I bet even you enjoyed watching that fuddu Jang and his pals squirming at all this. Just admit it. ;)

So how are you doing anyway? Is it roasting in Amritsar? We are getting a pretty mild summer here on the right side of the border. Saving lots of money on air-conditiioning. The mango and water melon season is here. Have you ever eaten chilled Pakistani mangoes or water melons? Wah ji Wah! They are a gift from Phagwan. ;)

#283 by dionysus

i agree, in kashmir troop violence should be brought down, it sucks. also the weekly bomb-blast killing innocent school children. this will happen with combination help of mushy and his rental sepoys, and some infrared heat sensors, nice fencing and some TATA buses, and kashmiri boys and girls jobs in india. more than anything else, our kashmiri brothers themselves will kill militancy and associated troop violence, just like our sikh brothers did it in the 80`s after paki support of khalistan died out.

no jehadis, no sedition, no need of troops..see the logic? it will be slow, but you will get it. in the meanwhile, make sure those PCTL guys dont ask for self determination.

interesting point about the dutch... all it took was one theo van gogh and they are shit-scared of turkish integration and that is why they voted against EU. what logic, go figure.

Dio ji

What a relief! You got Kashmir in the picture. I was really getting worried that all of sudden you were losing focus on your pet passion and concentrating totally on finding new genetic code of punjabis!

But what has happened during last three four months when you took a sabbatical from chowk. Aap to aise na the!

Regards

#278 by dionysus

[I don`t have the time to argue with you anymore. But I just want to say that unlike you I am not justifying or making excuses for my country`s crimes, such as the mass murders in Bengal in 1971.]

I`m not justifying the excesses committed by the IA in Kashmir, just wanted to put things in perspective. How many times have you protested Paki atrocities in B`desh? AFAIK, not once. Then what makes you cry rivers for Kashmir?

#280 by Romair

[How long were you in Pakistan to make this assumption that Pakistanis have this consensus.]

And how long have you been in India to say that Indians know nothing about Pakistan?

For those who are going ga ga over peace with pakis - here is a reminder:

http://nation.com.pk/daily/june-2005/15/columns1.php

``From the point of view of Pakistan`s Islamist militants and their backers in the establishment, Jihad is only on hold but not yet over. The major Kashmiri Jihadi groups retain their infrastructure that could be pressed into service at a future date. Afghanistan`s Taliban also continue to find safe haven in parts of Pakistan as recently as the spring of 2005. ``

Fools sitting in delhi have started visaless travel for pakis. So good luck!!!

This is why Pakiland wants Kashmir so bad...It`s not about their fellow muslims or civilizational relationships or any such BS...It`s about the water that flows from Indian Kashmir into Pakistan..Pakistan`s lifeline...

War over water

ASIF J. MIR

A water war between India and Pakistan is inevitable in the future. Apart from other native, vernacular, political, and national sound reasoning, Pakistan`s prime interest was to secure its water resources.
Though Kashmir is a political conflict, one of its dimensions is linked to water, because all water resources for India and Pakistan generate from Kashmir. The head-works of main Pakistani rivers originate in India.
The Indus River Basin has been an area of conflict between India and Pakistan. Spanning 1,800 miles, the river and its tributaries together make up one of the largest irrigation canals in the world. The basin provides water to millions of people in northwestern India and Pakistan. Dams and canals built in order to provide hydropower and irrigation has dried up stretches of the Indus River. Water projects have further caused the displacement of people and have contributed to the destruction of the ecosystem in the Indus plain.
The enmity between India and Pakistan over water started early when India discontinued water supplies to Pakistan. Hard bargaining and the mediation of the World Bank led to the world acclaimed Indus Water Treaty in 1960. The treaty allocated the three Eastern Rivers - Ravi, Sutlej and Beas - to India, the three Western rivers - Indus, Jhelum and Chenab - to Pakistan. Pakistan was to meet its requirements of its Eastern river canals from the Western rivers by building replacement works. Safeguards were included in the treaty to ensure unrestricted flow of waters in the Western rivers. Also both parties were to regularly exchange flow-data of rivers, canals and streams. A permanent commission known as the Indus Waters Commission was constituted to resolve the disputes between the parties. This treaty is globally respected that it has survived wars and periods of acute tension between the two hostile neighbours. However, the treaty has encountered hiccups wherein some contentious issues have cropped up.

Re: # 282 jang

You are bullshitting again. What happened in Europe in the past is irrelavent. Just look at the way they`ve handled the Dutch and French rejection of European integration and compare it to ``my backyard`` and the 600 000 raping, murdering, torturing Indian troops in Kashmir.

dyno, europeans clearly have a different trajectory, and indians have a different. they have done 2 world wars, and killed 7 million jews and others in a few months just 60 years ago. so you go study whats happening in holland, afterall its west-looking ;-). whats with the foam on you mouth dino? you should be more focused on your backyard, and learn about that.

Re: # 277 stuka ``Because Pakistan is not Pyo di Jagir of Jinnah. He may have a view but your government as a whole decides. Same thing in India``

Nonsense. These weren`t Nehru`s personal ramblings. They were official goverrnment statements made at various times to foriegn heads of state, before the country on the national media, and before the national parliament. Which ever way you spin it only Kashmiris have the right to decide Kashmir`s future just as only Punjabis, not Madrasis or Biharis, had the right to decide Punjab`s future in 1947.

#276 jang ``Nehru made some speeched in early times, when the nation was taking shape. Now, ksshmir his not his personal jagir. Later, a concensus was built about kashmir as the nation matured.``

Please see reply to stuka above, freakin moron. ``nation taking shape`` ``nation maturing`` ``nation greying`` ``nation balding`` ``nation farting``... What kind of irrelevent babble is that, retard? Try to learn something from recent events in Holland and the EU.

Stuka #277: ``I was being sarcastic on the issue of South Iindians being dark and ugly as that seems to be some kind of consensus in Pakistan.``

How long were you in Pakistan to make this assumption that Pakistanis have this consensus.

``people did not believe I was Hindu``

Your being bigger and not darker skinned or not bigger and darker skinned, has nothing to do with you being a Hindu. Or not being one. People don`t change skin color or start growing if they change their religion. At least not as far as I know.........Though there maybe some religion that can do that..........

People`s skin color etc. is decided by their genes, which are usually defined by the ethnic community their family belonged to. Which are defined by, in general, the civilization they are a part of. Your being taller and fairer than someone from Bihar proves the argument that I am trying to make............

``The races of Iindia are mixed and dispersed.``

They are not mixed and dispersed yet. People can move from one part of India to another, for jobs etc., hence they are mixing and dispersing. But this is a new phenomenon. Barely a few decades old. It is competing against thousands of years of lack of dispersal and mixing.

It will take some time. It will actually happen faster in Pakistan, since it is much less diverse. A few hundred years from now, if Pakistan and India keep their borders intact, this mixing will have resulted in the emergence of a new language(s), a new culture, a new ethnicity, etc.

At which time, India could be one civilization. However, that is in the future. You civilizational heritage is decided by your past............And that past covers hudreds to thousands of years...........

Re: # 277 stuka ``I was being sarcastic on the issue of South Iindians being dark and ugly as that seems to be some kind of consensus in Pakistan. ``

So South Indians aren`t dark? What the hell is wrong with you? It is just a MYTH that Indians are a brown race. This is how they like to project themselves in their movies and media. Outside of a few border states they are as black as Africans. Even most North Indians are Sansritized Dravidians rather than Indo-Aryans.

``Heck, when Ii was at Daata Sahib in Lahore, people did not believe I was Hindu coz I was bigger and lighter skinned and their perception of Hindus was that we are scrawny and dark.``

Stuka, Hindu is a religon not a race. This is not a diffucult concept and I don`t understand why you have such difficulty grasping it. With roots in Jhelium racially you are no different to the Lahoris you met at Data Darbar and ARE different to the vast majority of Indian Hindus, whether you like to admit it or not.


``Gujjars range from West Punjab to Bihar, Drvidians from Punjab to Tamil Nadu. Where does that leave your theories of Punjabis versus Biharis then? Are you going to call Yohana a Tamilian even if he is a Chamar?``

Your mind has been brainwashed into pulp. Gujjars , Rajputs and other Hun-Sythnic groups have their home in North East Pakistan and North West India. They are NOT found all over the subcontinent. And even if they were, so what? Punjabi gujjars are proudly Punjabi and I assume Rajsthani Gujjars are proudly Rajasthani. Most Germans, Englishmen and the American elite are from the same Anglo-Saxon stock. Does that mean Germany, Engliand America have to be one country???

It would be stupid to deny racial overlap in South Asia but its also foolish to pretend there are no differences. And more importantly than race there are big cultural differences. How many Biharis listen, read or understand Waris Shah`s Heer Ranjha, for instance?


The bottom line is that Kashmiris, Biharis, Punjabis, Tamils etc are all different nations. If they wish to live in one united South Asian state all well and good. But no one has the right to FORCE them to do so.

#275 Harish,

I don`t have the time to argue with you anymore. But I just want to say that unlike you I am not justifying or making excuses for my country`s crimes, such as the mass murders in Bengal in 1971.

#274 Arjun wrote ``Try going to the tribal areas and see American fighters/helicopters bombing the cr@p out of Pakistani citizens in Pakistani territory.``

The Americans don`t need to bomb the hell out of Pakistani citizens. The focking pimp Musharaf has got the Pakistani armed forces doing that for them. BTW, I know people serving in Wana so don`t presume to teach me about what is going on over there.

Romair:

I was being sarcastic on the issue of South Iindians being dark and ugly as that seems to be some kind of consensus in Pakistan. Heck, when Ii was at Daata Sahib in Lahore, people did not believe I was Hindu coz I was bigger and lighter skinned and their perception of Hindus was that we are scrawny and dark.

If you notice, the leading Ladies of Bollywood are South Indian. And they have an all Iindia appeal and play North Indian charachters..Rekha, Sridevi, Hema Malini et al.

Dionysus: That is the whole point. The races of Iindia are mixed and dispersed. Gujjars range from West Punjab to Bihar, Drvidians from Punjab to Tamil Nadu. Where does that leave your theories of Punjabis versus Biharis then? Are you going to call Yohana a Tamilian even if he is a Chamar?


With regard to Nehru`s speech on Kashmir, what happened to Jinnah`s speech on secularism that Yasser keeps posting? U guys still became Islamic republic right? Because Pakistan is not Pyo di Jagir of Jinnah. He may have a view but your government as a whole decides. Same thing in India.

dyno,

Nehru made some speeched in early times, when the nation was taking shape. Now, ksshmir his not his personal jagir. Later, a concensus was built about kashmir as the nation matured. Now in pakistan i understan speeched like the Aug 11 by jinnah or one in Dacca University are highly respected and implemented, even to detriment which leads to losing of half of its (darker) polulation. But india is different, kinda obtuse to speeches..many are made, sometimes people even clap. But on major issues, an effort to reach a consensus is made. U see, we want to avoid civil wars if we can. Pakistanis, especially panjabis, coming from martial stock (except for a few chamars like Yohana) are more risk-taking as has been demonstrated. So dont expect banias to behave like proud warriors ;-)

#270 by dionysus

[You really are a dumb fuddu, aren`t you?]

Nope. You are the dumb ass who thinks by appealing to our conscience, you can get on a platter what you couldn’t grab by waging 4 wars.

[This is Pandit Nehru, the father of your country and the leader of your country during the Indian invasion of J & K. His pledges aren`t just his personal pledges, they are the pledges of the Indian government.]

Really? But who cares? Not the India of 2005. If you think Pakiland cares, why don’t you grant independence to your part of Kashmir. And no, just calling it “Azad” doesn’t make it so. Ask the JKLF chief, Amanullah Khan.

[Yes, all these years and you still haven`t honoured your pledges to the Kashmiris. In fact, you`ve now started murdering, torturing and raping them in order to avoid honouring your pledges to them. You people have no shame.]

Coming from a Paki, this is sorta rich. You folks, who had no qualms about raping and murdering 3 million unarmed Bangladeshi men, women, and even children have no moral right to complain about it.

[It would be a bit dumb to appeal to the conciences of people who having once made solemn pledges to the Kashmiri nation are now mass-murdering them in order to avoid honouring those pledges, woudn`t it?]

If Pakiland is that conscientious, how come it separated the Northern Areas from Kashmir? Heck, you folks even gifted away a part of it to your masters, China.

[But FYI, the first attempt to grab Kashmir from India came in 1965, several years after India all-of-a-sudden started declaring Kashmir to its be own part.]

Really, then why did the so-called tribal lashkars invade Kashmir when Pakiland had signed a standstill agreement with the Maharaja of Kashmir?

[Nothing we do can invalidate or free you from them.]

And no amount of impotent seething is going to get India to hand over Kashmir to Pakiland on a platter.

#273 by dionysus on June 14, 2005 4:35am PT


hahahaha..so we should get the Kashmiris a teeny weeny bit of autonomy by totally sacrificing our own independence


Your Kashmir policy, encouraging Islamic fundamentalism in paki society to create a suitable environment to breed jihadis, has already cost you your independence...don`t believe me? Try going to the tribal areas and see American fighters/helicopters bombing the cr@p out of Pakistani citizens in Pakistani territory....

Re: # 271 hindvi ``Pakistan`s best hope of obtaining autonomy for Indian Kashmir lies in changing that view, and that can only occur if economic and tourist barriers between the two countries are dismantled.``

hahahaha..so we should get the Kashmiris a teeny weeny bit of autonomy by totally sacrificing our own independence and exposing our country to the teeming hordes of Hindustan? Yeah right! You guys are just too good! To hell with Kashmir. hahahaha

Re: # 269 paghal kutta


paghal kuttay, if your Indian parliament passes a resolution that says the Earth is flat does that make it the truth? If the Indian parilament passes a resolution declaring Pakistan to be an integral part of India does that mean we shoiuld all make our way westward and empty the country for you ugly blackies ?


And anyway, you missed the entire point of my posting Nehru`s statement, mad dog that you are. Stuka came up with a bullshit argument about why Kashmir was a part of India since the beginning of time. My point was that how come the founder and father of India and the man who got India into Kashmir in the first place, didn`t know anything about these Hindu civilizational arguments.

India has been able to partly sustain its possesion of kashmir thanks to the negative view of pakistan that most Indians possess. Pakistan`s best hope of obtaining autonomy for Indian Kashmir lies in changing that view, and that can only occur if economic and tourist barriers between the two countries are dismantled. This would offcourse involve a tradeoff, where increased dependence on India is traded for economic benefits, lower military spending and autonomy for Kashmir.

Re: # 267 harish

``Nehru, who? Unlike you, we are not hung up on personalities, be it Gandhi, Nehru, or whoever. ``

You really are a dumb fuddu, aren`t you? This isn`t just any personality. This isn`t some Nathoo Raam pakora fryer on some smelly chowk in Delhi. This is Pandit Nehru, the father of your country and the leader of your country during the Indian invasion of J & K. His pledges aren`t just his personal pledges, they are the pledges of the Indian government.

`` In case you missed it, this is circa 2005 and we left behind 1952 some 53 years ago. ``

Yes, all these years and you still haven`t honoured your pledges to the Kashmiris. In fact, you`ve now started murdering, torturing and raping them in order to avoid honouring your pledges to them. You people have no shame.


``However, if you are trying to appeal to our conscience (after having tried thrice to grab Kashmir by force, unsuccessfully if I may add), you`re only deluding yourselves.``

It would be a bit dumb to appeal to the conciences of people who having once made solemn pledges to the Kashmiri nation are now mass-murdering them in order to avoid honouring those pledges, woudn`t it? Clearly such people don`t have a conscience to appeal to.

But FYI, the first attempt to grab Kashmir from India came in 1965, several years after India all-of-a-sudden started declaring Kashmir to its be own part. And futhermore, you have made commitments to the Kashmiris themselves. Nothing we do can invalidate or free you from them.

#266 by dionysus on June 14, 2005 3:11am PT


Here are some more solemn pledges, just for you. Read em and squirm:


I`ll see your dead PM statement and raise you a parliamentary resolution...

Indian Parliament Resolution on Jammu & Kashmir
dated 22-Feb-1994

Firmly declares that-

1. ``The state of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be an integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest of the country will be resisted by all necessary means;


i.e. The Indian parliament sez bite us....

Re: # 250 stuka

Youhana is a Chamar. It`s very telling that you chose a Chamar to a South Indian because they both belong to the same Dravidian race. And if you`re staying that most Indians look like our ChewRay then the vast majority of Pakistanis will agree with you. (T)

266 by dionysus

[Have some respect, you fuddu. This is Pandit Jawahralal Nehru we are talking about: the founder, creator, father and first PM of your country, not some two bit Gandhi family puppet.]

Nehru, who? Unlike you, we are not hung up on personalities, be it Gandhi, Nehru, or whoever. So what if Nehru said that? In case you missed it, this is circa 2005 and we left behind 1952 some 53 years ago.

[If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir.]

If you want help, I can locate some more of Nehru`s ``solemn pledges``. But they are just that, pledges. However, if you are trying to appeal to our conscience (after having tried thrice to grab Kashmir by force, unsuccessfully if I may add), you`re only deluding yourselves.

Re: # 265 harish

Have some respect, you fuddu. This is Pandit Jawahralal Nehru we are talking about: the founder, creator, father and first PM of your country, not some two bit Gandhi family puppet. It was Nehru who negotiated the terms of the Indian invasion with Sheikh Abudulla and the Kashmirs, not the puppet. Nothing the puppet says can invalidate the solemn pledges of Pandit Nehlru.

Here are some more solemn pledges, just for you. Read em and squirm:


``If, however, the people of Kashmir do not wish to remain with us, let them go by all means. We will not keep them against their will, however painful it may be to us. I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. ``


PM Nehru in a statement in the Indian Parliament on 7th August, 1952.

#263 by dionysus

[BTW, the Republic of India never agreed to ``partition``, but it certainly, emphatically and very publicly agreed that Kashmir wasn`t a part of India]

In case you didn`t notice, just as certainly, emphatically, and publicly, Manmohan Singh said something that I reproduce below for you:

``I have said to President Musharraf that India will never accept anything which smacks of a further division of our country on religious lines -- and I have no mandate to negotiate to redraw the boundaries of our two countries``. -- Manmohan Singh in New Delhi on May 30, 2005.

How on earth is one person going to prove that Ghazni had/has anything to do with Islam, if another refuses to accept that? What kind of evidence would you furnish? And what would that evidence achieve?

The flip side of `Ghazni was secular` argument is that India didn`t exist and all its sundry variations. Does one expect to make any greater progress in `explaining` these issues?

Neither evidence, nor logic, nor history is the issue in such debates.

So I repeat, it is not worth a cent to be discussing issues like what India is, whether India existed or not, whether Hinduism ever existed, or whether Indian civilization means the same as the Hindu civilization.

If one must indulge in such intellectually robust excercises, one will need to begin with the basics. We can`t use Indian concepts (of religion, culture, society, polity, and, above all, the individual human being) and expect people unfamiliar with them to understand the distinctions we so effortlessly make.

There is a reason why Indian society is so different. It is because our basic tools of thought - cultural concepts, assumptions, models - have been different, both in a good and bad way.

That`s why, the dialogue between Dost-Mittar and Romair seems like one person speaking in French, the other in Chinese. I wonder if any other Indian feels the same way?

stuka ``But the Republic of India agreed to Partition.``


BTW, the Republic of India never agreed to ``partition``, but it certainly, emphatically and very publicly agreed that Kashmir wasn`t a part of India:

`` Kashmir is not the property of either India or Pakistan. It belongs to the Kashmiri people. When Kashmir acceded to India, we made it clear to the leaders of the Kashmiri people that we would ultimately abide by the verdict of their Plebiscite. If they tell us to walk out, I would have no hesitation in quitting. We have taken the issue to United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision``.


Jawarhalal Nehru, PM of India in Calcutta, on 2nd January, 1952

Re: # 248 stuka ``Dude, I have met plenty of clean shaven Sikhs and they look no different from Biharis and UPites. If some Punjabis are brought up on fukked notions on racial superiority, that does not take away from facts on the ground.``

hahahaha...you have lost your fucken mind! No one is denying that there is overlap in the racial characteristics of all the Indo-Aryan nations but to claim that there are no differences whatsoever between them , and that they are the same even as the South Indian Dravidians is the senseless delusion of a brainwashed mind that sees only what it wants to see. Sikhs and Punjabis look like Biharis????? Even Biharis themselves don`t believe it hahahahahaha




``The TNT is not my theory. It is the Pakistani theory``

No, the issue is not the TNT per se but the notion of defining nationhood through religuon which, according to Hindus, is evil when Muslims do it but just fine and dandy when Hindus themselves do it. The hypocrisy is simply breathtaking!

``I could. But the Republic of India agreed to Partition. End of Story. ``

The Republic of India didn`t agree to shit. The Republic of India came into existence one day after the Republic of Pakistan so it couldn`t agree to anything when it didn`t even exist. The Republic of India still hasn`t come to terms with the Pakistani right to self-determination excericed in 1947, just look at the fuss about Advani`s comments Jinnah, for instance.

So ask I you again, if you can use those pile of shit arguments about being Hindu to illegally occupy Kashmir why can`t you use them also to invade, occupy and brutalize West Punjab or Sindh with a perfectly clear, serene Gandhian conscience? haiN?



Thanks in advance.

Re: # 235

Romair:

``You seem extremely interested in quoting from the Quran? Why is that? We are not discussing the Quran. Why don`t I have any interest in quoting from the Hindu Vedas? Please do go ahead and quote. Let`s see how knowledgeable you are. I hope your knowledge of the Quran exceeds your knowledge of Ashoka.........

---

Because you alluded to hate speech from Hindu Indians, I reminded you of the hate speech from Quran.. You are free to quote from Vedas.. That is called the freedom of speech..

Well for a start, some samples from Quran chapter 2: the cow :-))

Quran Surah 2: The Cow

Don`t bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 6
Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 10
A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 24
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 39, 90
For disbelievers is a painful doom. 104
For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 114
Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 126
The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 162
They will not emerge from the Fire. 167
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 174
How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 175
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 191
War is ordained by Allah. 216
Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 217
Disbelievers worship false gods. They will burn forever in the Fire. 257
Allah does not guide disbelievers. 264
``Give us victory over the disbelieving folk.`` 286

References:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

Now, If this doesn`t sound like hate speech then what is??

---

``Studying history, of South Asia, objectively is very important. I would suggest you study that first, before trying to study the religious books of other faiths. This is what I do. Especially for Indians. And specially for Indian Hindus. It is this history, on the basis of which, many current social relationships are being formed. I think it affects Indian Muslims the most.

If everyone in India, keeps thinking that Ashoka did not kill anyone and only Ghaznavi did. And that any Hindu who invaded another land in South Asia was a hero and any Muslim (specifically one who did not have Hindu wives) who invaded another land was an invader, then they will always have a view of Islam, that you currently have....``

-- FYI I never said Ashoka did not kill people.. This is what I said..

``Good question.. .. The revulsion about the invasion from Ghori/Ghazni than the invasion of Ashoka maybe due to the accompanied atrocities carried out by the armies.. While it`s clearly documented and boasted by Ghazni there is no documented atrocities (atleast that I know of..) from Ashoka.. other than Ashoka himself changing his heart on seeing the destruction caused by wars and enforcing a golden rule.. ``

and this is how I ended..

``History/Religion are different beasts to different people.. I think it`s better to focus on current affairs and see how we can just move on.. I am not religious (infact anti-religious esp.. anti-Hindu to begin with..) had no knowledge of Islam/Quran.. before I chanced upon a few websites.. I think you`ve alluded to ``hate speech`` by Hindu Indians in a few responses in this board.. I felt like laughing.. What`s your opinion on the ``hate speech`` in your ``holy book``?.. Do you want me to quote the verses??.. :-))

Makes sense??..

Romair:

Your jubiliation is premature. Ashok IS a hero to all Indians, including those Punjabis who consider themselves Indian. However, to you and others for whom Punjab is not part of the Indian civilization, he may not be so...and I have no problem with that.

romair you are right. indians have a sense of arrival. ``arrival`` is the ultimate ram-rajya of peace tranquility and prosperity for all, not that of conquest over skinny dark people. neither does it involve gene-pool improvemnt experiments. its a bania thing..so anyhoo, please dont wait for the indian rupee - monetary union, and pay those royaltees in your retirement.

HP #255: ``PS. Youhana and Balaji...They are both so freaking ugly... ``

I always thought Balaji was a good-looking guy. Kind of like an Indian Imran Khan. I must say I am surprised Stuka thinks so low of his South Indian looks........

Balaji was the most popular Indian, during the recent tour of Pakistan. Everyone, from college girls to politicians were chasing after him. He was himself, completely overwhelmed by his popularity, in comparison to others like Irfan Pathan, Sachin etc......He became a sex symbol of sorts.......Apparently, in India, he does not get the same fan following.........

jang #256: ``we have arrived.``

I have always wanted to ask our Indian colleagues why they are so interested in, ``arrving.`` Every Indian wants to, ``arrive.`` Why do you want to, ``arrive`` so much.........

``pakistanis, you better pay some royalities..``

We, ``arrived`` a few hundred years ago. We had our fun. And now we are into retirement......It`s too hard to rule over you guys, forever. We have now decided to let you, ``arrive`` so you can have a feel of it, also :-)

also, it used to be panjabi fair, bengali short and black and ugly.

stuka
yohanna is a bad example.. you need a real surajvanshi rajput .. not the ..whats that word they use in pakistan..something starting with cho..

anycase, fact that in india an ex-pathan from dilli acts with a khatri kapur to celeberate a bihari king hero and people spend money with the behari kings lion-seal to watch means we have arrived. pakistanis, you better pay some royalities..jinnah chap currency is ok..dont wait-up for the common southasian rupee.

Okay, this thread is now Oficially closed. No more posts. Find something better to do in life.

PS. Youhana and Balaji...They are both so freaking ugly...

Is he really that deluded to think India is about to make territorial concessions?

Kashmir solution in two weeks if leaders show will: president

KUALA LUMPUR: President General Pervez Musharraf said on Monday that the decades old dispute with archrival India over Kashmir could be resolved in two weeks if leaders of both countries showed political will.

“I am just saying two weeks (as an example.) The most important thing is for the leadership to have the will to reach a conclusion,” Musharraf told reporters in Kuala Lumpur during a refuelling stop on his way to Australia. “At this moment, the leadership has the will and I am very hopeful.”

Musharraf confirmed that talks with India were proceeding on issues such as withdrawing troops from the Siachen glacier. He said negotiations to re-deploy the troops were meant to end the “eyeball to eyeball confrontation,” adding that he was “sure we’ll reach a conclusion.”

Asked if he would like to visit Indian Held Kashmir, Musharraf said: “I would love to go there.” But he added that he would not make a formal proposal to visit the region because, “the time is not ripe yet.”

Musharraf refused to affirm if he would step down by 2007 and hand power to civilian leaders, saying “we will cross the bridge when we come to it.” The president also defended the decision to deport top Al Qaeda operative Abu Faraj Al Libbi to the United States after his arrest in May, saying it was an important move for the international fight on terror.

“If you can do much more to get to the roots of Al Qaeda, to apprehend more people around the world through the interrogation of this one man, I think that is more important than trying him (in Pakistan),” he said.

Later on Monday, President Musharraf arrived in Canberra, becoming the first Pakistani head of state to visit Australia. During his visit, Australia and Pakistan are to sign a new counter-terrorism pact, making Pakistan the 11th country to sign an agreement with Australia since the Sept 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, as Australia continues to build regional cooperation against terror groups.

The focus of Musharraf’s trip will also be on alleviating Canberra’s concerns about the links between Al Qaeda or other Pakistan-based militant movements and Islamic radicals in Southeast Asia, including Australia.

Three out of four suspects currently charged with or facing trial in Australia for terrorism offences are alleged to have obtained terrorist training in Pakistan. Prime Minister John Howard said Pakistan was a strong ally in the war against terrorism and the campaign to dismantle Al Qaeda. “These agreements play an important role in fostering cooperation between our intelligence, security, law enforcement and defence agencies,” Howard said in a statement. agencies

Dost-mittar #247: ``You have a point if you look strictly from a Punjab perspective. You could go down further and look it from a Multan versus Lahore perspective also, if you so want.``

Thank God!!......Now I can rest in peace........I hope I will not catch you dancing to the songs of the movie Ashoka, staring Shahrukh Khan, anytime soon. That would be no different than someone in Lahore dancing to the songs of a movie about Ghaznavi.......Do keep in mind that Ashoka (and others) could have killed many of your ancestors.........Had they not done so, there could potentially be a hundred Dost-mittars in Ottowa and a hundred Stukas in USA.......

``The world historians will continue to treat the whole subcontinental civilization as one, albeit one comprising several strands, even though it is now divided into four nation states.``

Yes. Which is an idiciation of how little, the world historians know about this area............

Stuka #250: ``Romair..interesting that you bring up this point...I am pasting below two images..the first is Yousaf Yohana..a ``Fair and Lovely`` Punjabi of Pakistani heritage. The send is the Dark Madrasi Balaji. Please point out what racial differences you see...``

You seem to be brinigng down South Indians in the looks dept. I never said they were inferior looking. Why do you keep saying they are. I just said people look different across South Asia.........

I will give you the one on Yosuf Yohana.......He could pass off for Balaji.............But I was comparing the whole team to Sri Lanka. And compared Harbajan to Balaji..........Do post their pictures..........

I know so many Punjabis and Pathans who could pass off as Britishers. That does not mean a majority of Punjabis could. We are discussing the majority here..........Minorities keep migrating in and out. Put up a complete picture of the Pakistan team and the Sri Lankan team, and we can do a comparison...........I think many would find the Sri Lankan team better looking.........But everyone would find the two team different looking..........

Stuka #249: ``Damn, this Punjabi = Fair and Tall and Bihari = Short and Dark mantra has been internalized wesat of the Border.``

I never once mentioned that Punjabis were better looking than Biharis. You seem to have come up with that notion on your own. Husn-e-Bengal is world famous. I just said they looked different............

``These extend from Punjab all the way to Eastern UP and Bihar. Would you say they are different nations?``

It`s not a question of nations. It is a question of civilizations. Many civilizations can be in one nation. As in India. Or in Pakistan. If the above-mentioned satisfy the pre-requisites of a civilization, then they are. Otherwise they are not........

``Who said Urdu`s roots are Turki and Irani? That is the root of the script. If Urdu`s roots were only Turkish and Iranian, no Indian would understand it. Urdu is a combination of Hindi mixed with the languages you mention. But Urdu is way more similar to Hindi that it is to Turkish and Persian. How many Iranians would understand Urdu compared to Indians?``

Hindi can be looked at two ways. The original Hindi, with Sansikrit and Prakrit roots. However, the spoken Hindi is more like Urdu (from what I understand). Urdu`s roots are actually Persian, Turkish, Arabic and Sansikrat-based Hindi. The word Urdu is, itself, a Turkish word.

In that sense spoken Hindi is similar to Urdu. Not the other way around. I assume, original Hindi, would be more Sansikrit bases. I think it would be easier for an Urdu speaker to study Persian than to study Sansikrat.........

``Western civilization is one large civilization that exists in multiple national manifestations.``

Western civilization is one large civilization, only after Samuel Huntington published his book. He also considers Islam to be one large civilization. As well as Hinduism to be one large civilization. He, himself argued that he was writing at a very abstract level.

Do you consider Islam or Hinduism to be one large civilization? I certainly don`t. Languages are actually very good indicators of civilizations............

``So, since an Englishman may not understand French, you mean England and France are two distinct civilzations?``

Yes. Of course..........Perhaps not within their current geographical boundaries. But on ethnic historical basis............Punjab is a civilization of its own which is currently split across two countries. As are Bengalis. As are Pathans, split across two countries.........

``Everytime the Pakistani cricket team, which is primarily from Lahore, Peshawar and Karachi, and is Punjabi, Pushtu and Urdu speaking, is standing next to the Sri Lankan team, which is primarily Tamil and Sinhalese, I get so confused. They look so identical, that it is impossible to tell them apart, without looking at the color of their uniforms.....:-) ``

Romair..interesting that you bring up this point...I am pasting below two images..the first is Yousaf Yohana..a ``Fair and Lovely`` Punjabi of Pakistani heritage. The send is the Dark Madrasi Balaji. Please point out what racial differences you see...

``Similar features!! And that too from a Punjabi. What`s this world coming to? Heer and Ranjha must be rolling in their graves. You have committed cultural and civilizational blashpemy!! Are you going to tell me that my features are similar to those of someone from Tamil Nadu, or Bihar or Bengal or Sri Lanka? What in the world is similar about our features?....... ``

Damn, this Punjabi = Fair and Tall and Bihari = Short and Dark mantra has been internalized wesat of the Border.

Sir, now that I have spent a few days in Lahore, I can assure you that there is NO DIFFERNCE at all between Biharis, Punjabis and Bengalis in terms of physical features. I know many a Bihari who would be lighter skinned than Punjabis.

Let me tell you another fact...Bihar Punjab etc are relatively recent boundaries. Let us look at castes like Jat, Gujjar, Rajput etc. These extend from Punjab all the way to Eastern UP and Bihar. Would you say they are different nations?


``My features are probably similar to yours. They have a closer similarity to the adjacent civilizations of Kashmir (on India`s side), Sind and Afghanistan and maybe even Iran, than they do with someone three civilizations away in Bihar.............I have been confused for an Indian Punjabi, an Afghani and and Irani by people. I have even been confused for a South American. My wife has been confused for an Afghani, a Latino, an Irani, an Italian, even a Russian.

But, never in our lives have we ever been confused for a Bihari or a Tamil...........And I doubt a Bihari or a Tamil would be confused for a Pathan or a Punjabi.......... ``

I do not know you personally and would not like to comment on individuals. The point is that there is no physical difference between a Gujjar from Bihar and a Gujjar from Punjab...or for that matter a Gujjar and Rajput and a Jaat.

``Same Root Language!! The basis of civilization is not root language, but language itself. Otherwise, so many poeple become Latin and Arabs. Urdu`s roots are in Turkish and Persian. Am I a Turk? Am I an Irani? ``

Who said Urdu`s roots are Turki and Irani? That is the root of the script. If Urdu`s roots were only Turkish and Iranian, no Indian would understand it. Urdu is a combination of Hindi mixed with the languages you mention. But Urdu is way more similar to Hindi that it is to Turkish and Persian. How many Iranians would understand Urdu compared to Indians?
Take another example of Punjabi...One Language written in two scripts..Gurmukhi and Shamukhi. One of Indian origin and the other of Pharisee origin. The very fact that you speak Urdu and not Pharsee speaks to your Indic origin rather than a Semite one. (again Civilization and not Nation)

You are wrong on the fact that ``the basis of civilization`` is one language and not one root language as you are again confusing civilization with nation. Western civilization is one large civilization that exists in multiple national manifestations.



``The different languages spread across the Sub-Continent actually clearly identify the fact that this was various different civilizations. Languages take centuries to mature. And if they have matured, that means they were growing in relative isolation from each other. I cannot make heads or tails of farsi, sindhi, baluchi, much less Tamil, Malyalam, etc. ``

So, since an Englishman may not understand French, you mean England and France are two distinct civilzations? What about the Saxon and the Norman conquest of England? That was a scarce 1000 years ago. Anyways, the point is that civilization is distinct from nation and the latter may be maifest in numerous forms.

Anyways, the rest of your post is essentially the same point. Yes, Punjabis and Pathans have the same macro culture. Let me turn your hypothesis around. Are you saying that a Punjabi and a Pathan have as many differences as say a Pathan and a Swede? After all, they are all distinct civilizations right? What about the food eaten by a Pathan and Punjabi? Or for that matter (horror of horros) the food eaten by a Punjabi and a Bihari? Maybe that food is as distinct as food eaten by an Arab?

You discount all other factors and zero in on Hinduism alone. Then you apply that to Islam and see that it does not fit. Taking that logic you now apply that back to Hinduism and ipso facto you prove that Hinduism..just like Islam...is all different civilizations..Oh well, at best we can agree to disagree.

``hahaha...similar features??? Why don`t you go on to one of the Sikh websites and try persuading them that they look Biharis???? hahahahahahahaha ``

Dude, I have met plenty of clean shaven Sikhs and they look no different from Biharis and UPites. If some Punjabis are brought up on fukked notions on racial superiority, that does not take away from facts on the ground. If you look at rcultural references, features, language...the works...the root is the same.


``From a civilizational perspective, it is India and India alone that has the right to have a moral claim on Kasshmir. The original inhabitants of Kashmir were Hindu.``

LOL! TNT indeed! In actual fact, the original inhabitants were pagans and animists. Organized religions like Hinduism and Islam came long afterwards. So what happens to your little theory now? ``

The TNT is not my theory. It is the Pakistani theory. You are right about the animists and Pagans...BUT ..surprise surprise..neither the animists, nor the pagans, nor the Hindus are asking for different countries. We do live together in India for better or for worse. The honor of asking for a unique country based on religion goes to a segment of the Muslim leadership...so fine, they walked away.

``And if you can use this kind of total bullshit argument to justify your occupation of Kashmir why can`t you use it to jusfity occupying Lahore or Peshawar? haiN? ``

I could. But the Republic of India agreed to Partition. End of Story.

Romair#243:

``I thought you were living a life of retirement.....``

Yes, most of the time. But from time to time, some people get me involved in their projects.

Apropos, the topic. You have a point if you look strictly from a Punjab perspective. You could go down further and look it from a Multan versus Lahore perspective also, if you so want. The world historians will continue to treat the whole subcontinental civilization as one, albeit one comprising several strands, even though it is now divided into four nation states.

#241 Rmair ``Same Root Language!! The basis of civilization is not root language, but language itself. Otherwise, so many poeple become Latin and Arabs. Urdu`s roots are in Turkish and Persian. Am I a Turk? Am I an Irani?``

Not only that, Bihari-Hindustani has the same ``root language`` as Persian (Pehlavi, the ancient Persian, is almost identical to Sanskrit) and most European langauges. Using this logic Iran and Europe are a part of India too.

``Similar Religious traditions!! Yes this is the only common factor (until other religions like Islam and Christianity came in). And this is the factor that people on this thread are using.``

But this doesn`t cut it either. Firstly it is hypocrisy and absurdity of the highest order to castigate the concept of an Islamic Ummah and an Islamic state (which Indians regularily do) and then to turn around and claim the Hindu religion not only as the basis of India`s existence but also as a justification for India to occupy other nations in Sooth Asia. Secondly, Stuka claims India is some ancient Hindu civilization, but was India Hindu during the time of the Indus Valley ciivlization, before the Aryans invaded? I think not. India was also Buddhist for a very long time. Buddhism is the enemy religion of the Brahminical Hindusim that now holds sway in India and is used to claim the entire subcontinent as one Hindu nation.


Basically these guys are A-class bullshit artists. The bottom line is that both Pakistan and India are fake and phone countries who came into existence purely by historical accident. Neither of them have the ``right`` to occupy a single peice of land in the entire subcontinent against the wishes of its native peoples.

Stuka #236: ``How about similar features,``

I just cannot keep from laughing, when I read this. So I have to write some more.............

Everytime the Pakistani cricket team, which is primarily from Lahore, Peshawar and Karachi, and is Punjabi, Pushtu and Urdu speaking, is standing next to the Sri Lankan team, which is primarily Tamil and Sinhalese, I get so confused. They look so identical, that it is impossible to tell them apart, without looking at the color of their uniforms.....:-)

Whenever Harbajan Sing is standing next to Laxmikant Balaji, they look like twins. It`s impossible to tell who is from where............:-)

#242 paghal kuthha ``all your arguments about how Kashmir should really belong to Pakiland because of civilizational commonalities or some such BS are completely wasted on Indians...``

Paghal kuthay, it was your fellow Indians who were attempting a jusfication of the occupation on the basis of civilization, not me. Can you read English? Or is all that froth emanating from your mouth and covering your face obscuring your view of your monitor?


``.It`s the oldest rule of civilization..might makes right... ``

That`s the rule of the jungle, not civilization.

``take two asprins and call us when that changes in your favor... ``

Who`s wating for it to change in my favour? Not me. Do try to engage your brain first before shouting off like a mad dog.

Dost-mittar #240: ``my deadline has been extended, so I am back!]``

I thought you were living a life of retirement.....

``there are local Hindu villainous figures in history but they are not considered foreigner.``

Why aren`t they considered foreigners? This is what I am asking you. Just because someone has an incorrect assumption of history, does not make it right. Mohd bin Qasim and Ghauri are not considered foreigners by many Pakistanis. Yet, isn`t this the basic stance of yours and others that they should be considered foreign invaders of Sind and Punjab...........

``They were not mere colonisers like the British but clearly had a religious agenda as well. But in these posts, I see them wearing an external rather than a religious turban.``

I think one has to first define the boundaries of the area one is talking about. They become external invaders and Chandragupta and other Hindus become internal ones, if you draw the boudaries of a civilization extending from Bihar to Sri Lanka to Taxila.

However, this is the whole point. I am drawing the boundaries around Punjab and Sind and Bihar, and Bengal and Baluchistan and Tamils and Malyalam etc. Because, these are historically independent civilizations. All of India, or Hind or Baharat or Sub-Continent is basically just a geographical area, called Hind or Sub-Continent etc.

Anyone who invade Punjab from outside Punjab, is thus an invader. He is not a landed immigrant of Punjab. At the very least, the first time he invaded Punjab to bring it under his empire, he is definitely a foreign invader. After that, he is a subjugator, though not an invader. Your example of Babar and Akbar fits in here.

Based on this, Ghaznavi and Mauryans and British, and Darius and Alexander etc are invaders of Punjab..........They were first-time invaders. While Ranjit Singh (and probably Sher Shah) is not. They would be invaders of other areas, outside Punjab.......

A point you seem to be unwilling to accept...........To you, everyone of the above is an invader of Punjab, except the Mauryans. The only common factor I can see for your views being religion. There is no other common factor. Mauryans were first-time invaders of Punjab. Hence they were like Babar and Ghaznavi. The only difference being one was Hindu/Bhuddist