Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?

re: HP # 123

Look forward to reading your views. My knowledge of Mr. Jinnah as a person or of his personality or mental make-up is close to nil. I based my answer on my understanding of how in times of rapid and unexpected change groups can very quickly settle on someone as a leader. People who emerge as leaders during these brief periods of intense change rarely do well in the following periods of quiet and consolidation.

UP-ians, no idea! Except that humanity could do without whatever comes out of there :) :)

Our friend, tahmed sahib, has a long history of spin-doctoring on chowk. One time he made the claim that islam believes in ``equality of all people`` etc, the usual soft-islamist nonsense that suggests Mohammed founded Amnesty International. After appropriate citation from koran, hadith and islamic practice he decided he didn`t want to discuss the issue any futher.

So I wouldn`t worry too much about his paranoid ramblings about ``hindu hostility``. People who propagate self-serving fairy tales about their traditions are going to encounter hostility and ridicule.

RE:118
Humsab

i think i have read the following. Is this Sir Syed Ahmed Khan addressing UP Nawabs? :-)

``......Over all races, not only Muhammadans but Rajas of high position and the brave Rajputs who have not forgotten the swords of their ancestors, would be placed as a ruler a Bengali who at sight of table knife would crawl under his chair ( uproarious Cheers and laughter), ........ Do you think that the Rajut and the fiery Pathan..... could remain in peace under the bengalis? ( Cheers). ..... therefore, if any of you - men of good position, Raises, men of middle classes, men of noble family to whom God has given sentiments of honour - if you accept that the country should groan under the yoke of Bengali rule and its people lick the bengali shoes, then, in the name of God jump into the train, sit down, and be off to Madras, be off to Madras ( Loud Cheers``

Re: # 130

That`s why tahmed`s is known as the ``closet-mullah`` :)

jang #127 you write in response to my question: ``hindus that i know in india have a dim view of muslims, but cant call it animosity. there is animosity towards pakistanis due to the wars etc... som of it seems to emanate from partition experience. ``

Thanks for a straight answer (sometimes hard to get on chowk).

If you dont mind another question: what exactly is it about muslims that causes them to have a dim view of them?

Netizen #126 I dont know what you mean. Please clarify.

pmishra #130 So, you contradict yourself in the same post. Accusing me of ``paranoid ramblings about ``hindu hostility```` in one sentence; and providing the ``explanation`` for your hostility towards Islam and muslims in the next.

You are almost as entertaining as your hindutva leaders: your ``national leader`` Advani who intimidates his fellow citizens who happen to by muslim by destroying their place of worship (Babri masjid) crosses the border into Pakistan and sings like a nightingale at the tomb of the worst nightmare of the hindutvas. ha! ha!

Sir Syed Khan`s Speech

I am surprised so few know of/have read the famous Lucknow speech. Can anything in the history of India`s freedom movement be understood without being familiar with the speech? I guess, some, but not much.

The Issue of Animosity

I don`t agree with our Indian friends in labelling tahmed32 as a bigot. There are differences in his and our understandings. Such differences in understandings are natural, and should be addressed.

IMO, Hindu animosity toward Muslims (we all speak in general terms here) exists. One can point out that Muslims have a similar or greater animosity toward Hindus. From there, we can see if we can support our views about the existence of such Hindu/Muslim animosities. We may also get into the possible causes/sources of these feelings on both sides.

This requires a mutual willingness to discuss threadbare most politically incorrect of subjects (the only ones really worth discussing) calmly and truthfully.

kaalchakra,

your #137 begs the question of whether it is even possible to have a discussion on the most politically incorrect of subjects ``calmly`` and ``truthfully`` here on chowk.

i don`t agree with the indians labelling a pakistani as a bigot, but let`s look at the other side as well, these people labeled as ``bigots`` may have also labeled certain indians as bigots, when their worldview is challenged. misunderstandings and animosity do work both ways. . . and slapping down a label such as racist or bigot is one of the quickest and easiest ways to end a conversation.

then again, one has to want to have a conversation or dialogue, or be patient enough to be calm and truthful. there are some of us here who are more interested in shouting down folks, and saying ``na na na na na na, what have you got to say for yourselves now. . `` rather than having a calm dialogue. and it isn`t just some of the indians who do this.

chalo, perhaps one of these days. . .

#129 by kaalchakra
”Look forward to reading your views.”
Kaal,
I just got home and it is little late for me to be hangin out at the puter. I have whole post in my head and hopefully, sometime tomorrow I will post it.

Thanks.

HP Ji Jang ji and Raw Dust ji

Raw Dust has given the information. This speech is of Great Sir Syed Ahmed Khan who has a place in India`s history books as a Great Nationalist. And all those Muhajirs who are blamed for Pakistan`s domestic policy and also Punjabis from well to do family were trained at his Institution AMU.
Actually, there are many such priceless gems in his Writings and Speeches.

At the end, ` As we sow so shall we reap`.

Regards

ana

We are all in the same boat. Condemned to row it with the same two oars of love and bigotry.

It`s all good.



HP

Bro, with all that stuff spinning around in your head, you should write a couple of books.

#138 by ana on June 9, 2005 7:48pm PT


when their worldview is challenged.


Which, for most pakis, happens when shown the reality...they just can`t handle the bitter reality when non-pakis give them a glimpse of the real world(as opposed pakiworld, the parallel universe most pakis live in....where Indians are bad bad bad because of gujrat and bangladesh never happened...or where a majority of pakis don`t support Islamic jihadi causes)...

If I had a nickel for everytime a paki said he came to the internet full of love for his fellow man but turned into a frothing-at-the-mouth jihadi because of ``hatred from Indians``, i`d be able to upgrade to a 7 series....

kaalchakra #137 I appreciate your reasonable post. We can now carry the discussion the next step beyond recognition of this hostility, and try to understand the causes of this animosity towards muslims and islam among hindus (i.e., the same question I had for jang in #133 who was similarly good enough to recognize the obvious fact that this animosity exists).

Any insights you could provide would be appreciated.

the way this discussion is goin on tells a lot about why we haven`t reached to a solution to kashmir
come on people, we`ve got to think above animosity and enmity.... we`ve made this a matter of our ego more than a matter of the fate of kashmiris ....
the whole mindset has got to change and it`s time we gave kashmiri their rights.... and by their rights, i mean what they want, may it be through a plebiscite or any other way the authorities deem right