Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?

#137 by kaalchakra

It is both amusing and revealing that while talking about Hindu animosity towards Muslims, tahmed32 blissfully ignores centuries of Muslim hostility towards adherents of other faiths (Hindus and Sikhs in the case of the subcontinent). Also amusing is the fact that if others make the same kind of gross generalizations that he`s been merrily making, he would waste no time in playing the cop.

I`m not trying to turn this into a slanging match, but just wanted you to know that it is futile to argue with someone who is so blinded by prejudice that he refuses to see things objectively.

Re: # 134

what does pak history book say about Hindu animosity? Whether it was during Partition and Kashmir wars or since time immemorial.

harish hyd: We can talk about muslim hostility later if you wish. I have no problem with recognizing that muslim hostility to hindus also exists. Why do you have so much trouble recognizing that hindu hostility to muslims also exists? even though it is practiced daily on chowk by your illustrious colleagues!!

Netizen: Last time I read a ``pak history book`` was in high school, from where I graduated around the same time as the first battle of panipat. Who cares what ``india history books`` have to say vs ``pak history books``. I just want to understand the disease that afflicts some patients of mine (Mr. Jay Thakeray being the most interesting case). More seriously, there may be good reason for this hindu animosity to muslims (given that it seems to be quite widespread, at least going by the admittedly limited sample provided on chowk).

what would be the cause(s) for animosity amongst many muslims in what is now pakistan towards non-muslims? ah, wouldn`t it be lovely to shed some light and insight on that as well. but wait, there are muslims in pakistan who can`t tolerate some of those who are under the umbrella of ``islam``. where is that animosity, and murderous thought coming from? it didn`t just begin fifty-eight years or so ago.

arjuna, #142

but what about your reality and your worldview? can it be challenged or questioned a) without calling you a bigot and b) without you linking yourself to ``paki this and paki that.`` your identity on chowk for many of us, even the more open-minded of us, has been that of paki-hater. now if that is something you want to be known as, and you see nothing wrong with it, then that`s your burden to bear. you can`t expect that not to be challenged though. and while there are pakistanis whose actions and views should be challenged here, be they muslim, or atheist or whatever, like i said, it is how you say it. if you just want to slap pakiworld on us, and not go any further than that, we`re not really having a dialogue.

if pakistanis say that bangladesh never happened (and i don`t know where you`re getting that from) then they are deluded fools. i don`t know that many here are saying that, the spin, however, on what happened in bangladesh is going to vary, because even for that, some of us are going to put more of the responsibility on the indians and the then ``east pakistanis`` than on ourselves in the west. arjun, the reality is that it isn`t pakistanis alone who keep passing the buck. but what a lot of us don`t realize is that an indian does not have to be a hindutva/RSS wala to say the negative things they do to pakistanis, and pakistanis do not have to be jihadis or mullahs at heart to question indians.

but i`ll stop here, because i need to spend this quarter on ``calling someone who cares.`` :)

kaalchakra #141

``good`` is a relative term though, innit? :)

Hatred is greatly misunderstood. It`s nothing to sneeze at or be disparaged. It`s as natural and healthy a reaction to the external world as love.

Like all things human, hatred is dangerous only if it is hidden and unacknowledged. So let`s not deny it. Of course, Hindus hate Muslims. Many hindus don`t but many Hindus also live in icy Himalyan caves or in mental assylums.

For first hand, instructive, experience, all one needs to do is to listen carefully to the dominant discourses of Hindus and Muslims.

The ubiquitous hatred one finds for each other is a positive sign, if we can honestly talk about it.

Later today, I will take a stab at tahmed32`s important question. Just my hunches but that`s way better than not talking about them.

For the record, I too dont think TAhmed is a bigot, its simply that he is singularly obdurate.

There is clearly a framework within which ‘hating Islam’ is equated with ‘hating Muslims’ (and similarly with any other religion, or source of group ‘identity’). Just count the number of times the two have been conflated on this board. For many people from the subcontinent this appears to be an absolutely natural, even unconscious assumption.

Does everyone realise that there is a framework within which one can hate, despise, execrate Islam, without wanting to harm or harass people of Muslim background, do them bodily injury, rob them of their property, deprive them of their civil rights, etc.?
That it’s perfectly possible for someone even of Muslim background to hate Islam? And similarly with any other religion (or source of group identity)?

I suspect that many people who take religion or a specific religion seriously, will simply reject the second possibility out of hand, will not even want to acknowledge it. For me, it is the only sensible option.

re: AlephNull # 151

That is so self-evident that it shouldn`t be even an issue. But, I think, hating people is OK too, if given the amount of information available and processed, there is reasonable cause for such hatred.

It`s pure form of bigotry to deny anyone the right to hate.

the indian non-muslims in general have a dim-view of mulsim faith as far as i can tell. there is little that is perceived by them as an ``obvious`` good..and this inspite of state and non-state education systems saying only generic good things. i cannot however pinpoint what one thing that bothers them..more correct thing to say would be there is little that apeals to them.

kaalchakra #151

{{That is so self-evident that it shouldn`t be even an issue.}}

But it is not self-evident to a huge number of people. It is an issue. Just look around Chowk. This conflation is the basis for a lot of apparent rage.

I think it would be pay rich dividends to understand where this conflation orginates. Why or how does it become second nature? Is it hardwired or is it programmed? (I have my own partial answers).

{{But, I think, hating people is OK too, if given the amount of information available and processed, there is reasonable cause for such hatred.}}

I’m fine with that, provided that people and ideologies are not automatically conflated. I don’t in general oppose emotions – they are often telling you something very important about a situation in which you find yourself. I learned that the hard way.

mr alehph null pls use simpler language, even at the risk of being inaccurate.

so mr tahmed, the thing is hindooos dont particularly find christianity attractive enough to convert en-masse (as in korea e.g), but somehow ascribe positive values to it and thus dont have a dim view. christianity is associated with education, modernity, peace. i suspect even muslims (in india and pakistan) view it thus, does not mean they are rushing to convert. its kind of like this...pres bush keeps saying islam is a great religion and religion of peace. most americans however i think have a dim view. similarly, in movies, text-books, media, islam in india is never portrayed -vely, but the general awam has dim view. for example, one never says stuff like ``muslims have a XXXX mentality`` (chose a favorite stereotype here), nor is there any association of a particular mentality with muslims.

kaalchakra:
AlephNull is making an important point here, IMO. There is definitely a trend here when people use religous/nationalistic constructs and followers of those religions/whathaveyou interchangeably.

I am thinking out loud but i think on internet even hatred and demonization of peoples and whole groups is not something necessarily be destructive. That is one of the major plus of internet - it gives a means of expression to all but not let one group superimpose itself violently as it might have happened specifically in the case of racist and religio-fascist groups lynching dissenters in the real world. So yea, hate is good - it increases the resolution of the spectrum of opinions from left to right.

Re: # 147

``Netizen: Last time I read a ``pak history book`` was in high school, from where I graduated around the same time as the first battle of panipat. Who cares what ``india history books`` have to say vs ``pak history books``. I just want to understand the disease that afflicts some patients of mine (Mr. Jay Thakeray being the most interesting case). More seriously, there may be good reason for this hindu animosity to muslims (given that it seems to be quite widespread, at least going by the admittedly limited sample provided on chowk).``

First batle of panipat? that was in 1526. Well you should have been aware of the animosity b/t hindus/muslims ;)

My 2 cents,
Hindu hatred for muslims can be compared to Chinese/Korean hatred for Japanese.

Hate is an emotion for uncouth and unsophisticated. Better emotions are like and dislike and people who care about people or the quality of life avoid hating anything but they may or may not like something.
Indians/Pakistanis are generally loud and express emotions in absolutely terms. I have no doubt that RSS/VHP show immense dislike and in Indian emotional term hate, of Muslims in India or elsewhere. At the same time, I doubt that they have similar feelings for Islam but Islam too is attacked when RSS followers or the Hindutva followers attack or show their immense displeasure of Muslims of Pakistani or Indian origins.

Since there is no comparable organization in Pakistan or even India, at the RSS/VHP level, we are safe to assume that the hatred of Hindu in Muslim communities in India or in Pakistan is not institutionalized. Neither is Muslims sentiment part of the mainstream as in the case of Hindus where both RSS/VHP are mainstream and publicly well-supported political as well as religious parties.
Denying that Some Hindus don’t hate Muslims is absolutely nonsensical as there is plenty of evidence that these two organizations support hatred of Muslims in India.

Raw_Dust. I don`t know how you read him but alephnull is promoting hate. That he always does.
I am impressed with your logic that if you are safe behind an IP adress, you are allowed to show your ugliest face. I guess that is may be part of your or Alephnull`s ethics but certainly unethical for most of the people.

HP:
yea, i donot have problems when nicks/people abusing me or the things i care for on internet. I think i made my point very clear in the last post but your criticism though a little skewed is prolly valid.

cheers.

HP, while i think most hindus have a negative opinion of muslims, it has nothing to do with ``institutions`` like vhp or rss. most hindus, even highly religious ones, dont know where the local vhp or rss office is...in vast south, bengal, most of maharshtra (except some cities), rss and vhp are almost non-existent.

the point is if someone wants to address the dim-view, it is incorrect to address vhp or rss rants.