Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?
H P June 6, 2005
#161 Posted by HP on June 10, 2005 1:22:01 pm
Jang,
Negative is an extremely soft word when you come across undeniable evidence that RSS/VHP have institutionalized hatred.
I agree that ``most`` woud not know any thing about RSS/VHP but those ``most`` don`t control the society either.
I am positive that common Hindus don`t hate Muslims and I would strongly disagree with anyone who asserts that all Hindus hate Muslims.
The religious acrimonies mostly exist in lower middle class people. People who show strong religious beliefs are mostly from the classes that lack better upbringing.
Since they already lack quality motor skills, they find it convenient to attack or hate people based on religion.
Negative is an extremely soft word when you come across undeniable evidence that RSS/VHP have institutionalized hatred.
I agree that ``most`` woud not know any thing about RSS/VHP but those ``most`` don`t control the society either.
I am positive that common Hindus don`t hate Muslims and I would strongly disagree with anyone who asserts that all Hindus hate Muslims.
The religious acrimonies mostly exist in lower middle class people. People who show strong religious beliefs are mostly from the classes that lack better upbringing.
Since they already lack quality motor skills, they find it convenient to attack or hate people based on religion.
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#172 Posted by anil on June 10, 2005 7:49:46 pm
Re: # 162
HP: Very interesting observation and analysis. I wonder what Yasser`s views are on this analysis. After I had read Sole Spokesman, and Walport on Gandhi, I felt similar that none of these English trained Indians were religious, and none of them were economist or technologist to understand nation-state. These british trained lawyers, no doubt delivered the independence from British, or independence was handed to them by the British. I also feel that they did not understand the law of numbers in democratic set up, or may be they were getting tired and wanted independence in their life time.
Distanced from independent leaders, my and even younger generations of Yassers, it is not easy to understand the dynamics, the history is quite static. I know V.S. Naipaul is not popular among Pakistani readers, but in his book ``Beyond Belief`` he wrote something that has stuck with me, which is that once the demand for Pakistan was made in 1900-1910 for the first time, it was only a matter of time and and question of who will lead the deliverance of Pakistan. In my thought process, the muslim leaders and the elites of the time always considered themselves to be the rulers, and had not understood democracy. There was very little experience in those days to go around with the democratic nation-state. Even England had aritocracy and landed gentry. Therefore, they were afraid that they would loose power. They did not understand the power really come from the economic might and access to capital. Those who understood it, Bombay muslims, thought a separate state will deliver greater riches to them. They did not realize, Azim Premji`s only two generation separated from them is a product to India, technology, and western education.
Frankly, we can gro thru gyrations of who was who, and play the blame game, I think if the same leaders were today, and were going for independence the outcome would have been very different. But then India was the first nail in the coffin of colonialism, and led its funeral procession. May be if the world order has not changed what is possible today may not be possible also. In a way it is all mental exercise.
Anil Kapuria
HP: Very interesting observation and analysis. I wonder what Yasser`s views are on this analysis. After I had read Sole Spokesman, and Walport on Gandhi, I felt similar that none of these English trained Indians were religious, and none of them were economist or technologist to understand nation-state. These british trained lawyers, no doubt delivered the independence from British, or independence was handed to them by the British. I also feel that they did not understand the law of numbers in democratic set up, or may be they were getting tired and wanted independence in their life time.
Distanced from independent leaders, my and even younger generations of Yassers, it is not easy to understand the dynamics, the history is quite static. I know V.S. Naipaul is not popular among Pakistani readers, but in his book ``Beyond Belief`` he wrote something that has stuck with me, which is that once the demand for Pakistan was made in 1900-1910 for the first time, it was only a matter of time and and question of who will lead the deliverance of Pakistan. In my thought process, the muslim leaders and the elites of the time always considered themselves to be the rulers, and had not understood democracy. There was very little experience in those days to go around with the democratic nation-state. Even England had aritocracy and landed gentry. Therefore, they were afraid that they would loose power. They did not understand the power really come from the economic might and access to capital. Those who understood it, Bombay muslims, thought a separate state will deliver greater riches to them. They did not realize, Azim Premji`s only two generation separated from them is a product to India, technology, and western education.
Frankly, we can gro thru gyrations of who was who, and play the blame game, I think if the same leaders were today, and were going for independence the outcome would have been very different. But then India was the first nail in the coffin of colonialism, and led its funeral procession. May be if the world order has not changed what is possible today may not be possible also. In a way it is all mental exercise.
Anil Kapuria
#162 Posted by HP on June 10, 2005 1:29:31 pm
Anyways, enough of this nonsense. lets move forward.
Kaal here is the promised post. Though written in haste.
Kaal,
(Long post)
Jinnah in his personal life was not taken in by any religion and my personal read is that he was either an atheist or an agnostic. Therefore, I think when he joined Indian National Congress he never wanted to be known as a “Muslim” politician. Ironically, he was right away tagged as an “ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity”. It must have pleased him then and many historians cite that as a big feather in his cap but as I read it, and in hindsight, I can say this with full conviction that that was the worst thing that happened to him. It was a title, he could have done without and this title alone destroyed his political future as an all India level politician.
Here is the irony. Jinnah in the early to late 20s and even before that never associated himself with any Muslim cause. He did not support the largest Muslim agitation, the Khilafat Movement. He in fact, opposed it. Whereas it was Gandhi, who not only supported the Khilafat Movement but also befriended Muslim clergy and its leaders Maulana Azad and Ali Brothers. Jinnah never liked Muslim clergy and throughout his career never allowed them to be close to him even when he was leading Muslim League.
Despite Gandhi’s closeness to Muslim clergy, Gandhi was never called the Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity instead the title fell on a person who never wanted anything to do with any religion. If you go thru the Newspapers throughout the 20s, you will notice that he was mostly referred to as a Muslim or a Mohammedan leader. That tag was unfortunate because nobody in any newspaper in India ever referred to Gandhi, Nehru or any other leader as “Hindu” leaders. Jinnah was pigeonholed into something he was not. He was tagged as a Muslim leader when in reality his politics was more secular than that of Gandhi who occasionally talked about the Hindu revival and actively supported Muslims causes and Muslim clergy.
Since Jinnah was initially pleased with his title, I think he never grasped the Modern concept of Nation and Nationalism advocated by Congress.
Nation and Nationalism
Sir Syed first referred to Hindu and Muslims as “Doo Quom”. “Quom” is a loose translation of “nation” in Urdu. Hindu and Muslims were religious entities but they were not Nations or “Quom” in the strict sense of the word. Sir Syed was not a well-educated person and I doubt that he even understood modern concept of Nation. Sir Syed’s terminology got currency in Muslims in the center provinces and when “Doo Quom” was translated into English, it became the “Two nation Theory”. The appropriate name should have been the “Two Religious entities theory”.
When Jinnah decided to switch to Muslim politics, he bought the Sir Syed interpretation of Quom or honestly, he probably found it convenient to further his political ambition.
UP-ians
Three prominent UPians who helped Jinnah in his Muslim League politics were Raja Mehmoodabad, Liaquat Ali Khan and Chowdry Khaliquzamman. All three were secular in their politics. Liaquat and Perhaps Khaliq also had Hindu wives. While these politicians used Islam, Two Nation Theory and Urdu as the Muslims symbols, I doubt that they had any commitment to establish Islam in a new country. That was good enough for Jinnah too. (Raja Mehmood wanted Islam but other leaders rejected him and he went back to India)
Once Pakistan was established, the only thing they could agree on to appease their supporters was to establish Urdu as the only Language of Pakistan. Since none of them was religious in any way, Jinnah reclaimed his Secular past with his now famous speech of “Muslims cease to be Muslims and Hindus cease to be Hindus”.
What they confronted in Pakistan was not the TNT based fervor but the modern concept of Nation and Nationalism espoused by Bengali, Sindhi and Pakhtoon. Jinnah and the Muslim League leaders from UP never fully understood that Sindhi, Bengali and to some extent Punjabi supported Pakistan for their own nationalistic reasons and coming under the Pakistan umbrella was just a politically expedient way for them to establish their national credentials.
Soon enough Jinnah under his interpretation of a Muslim Nation went on to establish Urdu as the language of Muslims in Bengal and Bengali went berserk over that. Later on, Sindhi followed suit in re-establishing their own language.
You have already captured the Philosophical side of Jinnah’s decision in your post and I wont add any thing there.
Kaal here is the promised post. Though written in haste.
Kaal,
(Long post)
Jinnah in his personal life was not taken in by any religion and my personal read is that he was either an atheist or an agnostic. Therefore, I think when he joined Indian National Congress he never wanted to be known as a “Muslim” politician. Ironically, he was right away tagged as an “ambassador of Hindu-Muslim Unity”. It must have pleased him then and many historians cite that as a big feather in his cap but as I read it, and in hindsight, I can say this with full conviction that that was the worst thing that happened to him. It was a title, he could have done without and this title alone destroyed his political future as an all India level politician.
Here is the irony. Jinnah in the early to late 20s and even before that never associated himself with any Muslim cause. He did not support the largest Muslim agitation, the Khilafat Movement. He in fact, opposed it. Whereas it was Gandhi, who not only supported the Khilafat Movement but also befriended Muslim clergy and its leaders Maulana Azad and Ali Brothers. Jinnah never liked Muslim clergy and throughout his career never allowed them to be close to him even when he was leading Muslim League.
Despite Gandhi’s closeness to Muslim clergy, Gandhi was never called the Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity instead the title fell on a person who never wanted anything to do with any religion. If you go thru the Newspapers throughout the 20s, you will notice that he was mostly referred to as a Muslim or a Mohammedan leader. That tag was unfortunate because nobody in any newspaper in India ever referred to Gandhi, Nehru or any other leader as “Hindu” leaders. Jinnah was pigeonholed into something he was not. He was tagged as a Muslim leader when in reality his politics was more secular than that of Gandhi who occasionally talked about the Hindu revival and actively supported Muslims causes and Muslim clergy.
Since Jinnah was initially pleased with his title, I think he never grasped the Modern concept of Nation and Nationalism advocated by Congress.
Nation and Nationalism
Sir Syed first referred to Hindu and Muslims as “Doo Quom”. “Quom” is a loose translation of “nation” in Urdu. Hindu and Muslims were religious entities but they were not Nations or “Quom” in the strict sense of the word. Sir Syed was not a well-educated person and I doubt that he even understood modern concept of Nation. Sir Syed’s terminology got currency in Muslims in the center provinces and when “Doo Quom” was translated into English, it became the “Two nation Theory”. The appropriate name should have been the “Two Religious entities theory”.
When Jinnah decided to switch to Muslim politics, he bought the Sir Syed interpretation of Quom or honestly, he probably found it convenient to further his political ambition.
UP-ians
Three prominent UPians who helped Jinnah in his Muslim League politics were Raja Mehmoodabad, Liaquat Ali Khan and Chowdry Khaliquzamman. All three were secular in their politics. Liaquat and Perhaps Khaliq also had Hindu wives. While these politicians used Islam, Two Nation Theory and Urdu as the Muslims symbols, I doubt that they had any commitment to establish Islam in a new country. That was good enough for Jinnah too. (Raja Mehmood wanted Islam but other leaders rejected him and he went back to India)
Once Pakistan was established, the only thing they could agree on to appease their supporters was to establish Urdu as the only Language of Pakistan. Since none of them was religious in any way, Jinnah reclaimed his Secular past with his now famous speech of “Muslims cease to be Muslims and Hindus cease to be Hindus”.
What they confronted in Pakistan was not the TNT based fervor but the modern concept of Nation and Nationalism espoused by Bengali, Sindhi and Pakhtoon. Jinnah and the Muslim League leaders from UP never fully understood that Sindhi, Bengali and to some extent Punjabi supported Pakistan for their own nationalistic reasons and coming under the Pakistan umbrella was just a politically expedient way for them to establish their national credentials.
Soon enough Jinnah under his interpretation of a Muslim Nation went on to establish Urdu as the language of Muslims in Bengal and Bengali went berserk over that. Later on, Sindhi followed suit in re-establishing their own language.
You have already captured the Philosophical side of Jinnah’s decision in your post and I wont add any thing there.
#163 Posted by jang on June 10, 2005 1:41:16 pm
#161 by HP
let me try again.... a COMMON hindu has negative sentiment, whereas he is blissfully unaware of RSS or VHP existance. now, i see folks repeatedly ``attacking`` vhp/rss while failing to see this simple truth.
wheather this negative sentiment is soft or not is a different issue. aleph and raw adresses some aspects of this, i.e. actions emanating from a negative sentiment.
let me try again.... a COMMON hindu has negative sentiment, whereas he is blissfully unaware of RSS or VHP existance. now, i see folks repeatedly ``attacking`` vhp/rss while failing to see this simple truth.
wheather this negative sentiment is soft or not is a different issue. aleph and raw adresses some aspects of this, i.e. actions emanating from a negative sentiment.
#164 Posted by HP on June 10, 2005 1:54:06 pm
Jang- I think we are close in our definition.
The point that I am making is that you are wrong when you say that common Hindus have negative sentiments. Because common Hindus don`t. Only people living in cities and have access to means of hate, hate people.
I think your idea of common Hindu is different than mine. I think common Hindu is mostly village dweller poor peasant or a laborer but to you that common Hindu is a city dweller who either has access to media or hear things from crazies from RSS/VHP on regular basis. That person may have a negative view but he is still not a majority or “most”.
#165 Posted by jang on June 10, 2005 2:55:39 pm
HP i did not use the word hate. I used the word negative sentiment. You ask ANY hindu, (actually a non-muslim is more appropriate) village, city, north, south if he thinks high of islam or muslims. The sentiment is negative, without any vhp or rss. Rabid mouth frothing hate is a different thing. that is more restrictive.
so when tahmed or you seem to point to vhp and rss as the bad guys, you are missing the whole big negativity from a common man. i am acknowledging this negativity (or non-positivity). i dont know if its important to you folks. to me as an indian that is more important. i am perfectly happy with managing this negativity as opposed to removing it ;-)
so when tahmed or you seem to point to vhp and rss as the bad guys, you are missing the whole big negativity from a common man. i am acknowledging this negativity (or non-positivity). i dont know if its important to you folks. to me as an indian that is more important. i am perfectly happy with managing this negativity as opposed to removing it ;-)
#170 Posted by cayenne on June 10, 2005 7:18:14 pm
Re: # 166
Coming from a pak whose country has seen bloody sectarian violence within the last 30 days , please, clean your house before you pass sanctimonious statements about mine.I believe , all indians, irrespective of race or religion, have more or less reconciled themselves to the idea of nationhood and are more interested in their quality of life and development issues rather than the petty issues of the past.One can even say, charitably, that Advani, a hindu hardliner of note has set the tone of reconciliation among all indians to the idea of religious harmony and getting along.
Your arguments are based on an inherent dislike of all things indian and though you are entitled to your narrow view, a very diverse india has withstood all kinds of shocks these last 57 years to emerge as one of the leading nations of this century by any yardstick and that is a testament to the solid foundations set by our politicians, businessmen/industrialists, educators, bureaucrats, technocrats and above all the average citizen.
It is the first time in our history that india has a minority head of state and head of government and if the last year is a yardstick for development, the best is yet to come.From automobiles to aviation, electronics to IT, biotech to pharma, consumer durables to foodgrains, India has seen production quadruple in all spheres.Last year 1.2 million new automobiles were registered in India.This year the figure is expected to rise to 1.6 million, not counting exports.Textile exports have risen to 12 billion from 8 billion after quotas were lifted.India is the world`s largest consumer of gold importing more than 700 metric tons a year.What`s your point?.
Coming from a pak whose country has seen bloody sectarian violence within the last 30 days , please, clean your house before you pass sanctimonious statements about mine.I believe , all indians, irrespective of race or religion, have more or less reconciled themselves to the idea of nationhood and are more interested in their quality of life and development issues rather than the petty issues of the past.One can even say, charitably, that Advani, a hindu hardliner of note has set the tone of reconciliation among all indians to the idea of religious harmony and getting along.
Your arguments are based on an inherent dislike of all things indian and though you are entitled to your narrow view, a very diverse india has withstood all kinds of shocks these last 57 years to emerge as one of the leading nations of this century by any yardstick and that is a testament to the solid foundations set by our politicians, businessmen/industrialists, educators, bureaucrats, technocrats and above all the average citizen.
It is the first time in our history that india has a minority head of state and head of government and if the last year is a yardstick for development, the best is yet to come.From automobiles to aviation, electronics to IT, biotech to pharma, consumer durables to foodgrains, India has seen production quadruple in all spheres.Last year 1.2 million new automobiles were registered in India.This year the figure is expected to rise to 1.6 million, not counting exports.Textile exports have risen to 12 billion from 8 billion after quotas were lifted.India is the world`s largest consumer of gold importing more than 700 metric tons a year.What`s your point?.
#166 Posted by HP on June 10, 2005 3:21:51 pm
Jang,
In that case, it is a social malaise and nauseating to think that a whole population feels negatively about something, most of the time, they do not even interact with.
Is this because of the social conditions that Muslims live in or is this because they have been made pirańa by the society due to on going anti-Muslim propaganda or is it something that Muslims do that turns off pretty much the whole society.
I guess that negativity eventually leads to Physical attacks on Muslims.
The Indian society needs lots of sanitation work.
#167 Posted by cayenne on June 10, 2005 3:37:46 pm
H P....You are an India hater.You are a contemptible person.Sicko!!.
#168 Posted by tahmed32 on June 10, 2005 6:09:10 pm
There are some interesting points made here in the last several posts on this board.
What jang seem to be saying is that clear is that there is no real appreciation for the positive aspects of islam or muslims (and points to the low rate of conversion from hinduism to islam). That does not come as a surprise though - compared to centuries past, religion does seem to have become a less significant factor not across the world (it is hard to imagine that just about 400 years ago they were burning witches in America, and over a couple of hundred thousand anabaptists were burnt at the stake in europe between the 15th and 16th centuries for the crime of calling for baptism at adulthood rather than at childhood).
Nevertheless, religion remains a significant factor in the subcontinent in the sense of communal violence (in India) and sectarian violence (in Pakistan). So, while jang may be right in terms of his own circle of friends/relations, the fact is that for many hindus (and muslims) religion is a major cause of real life events (including the formation of Pakistan, which is the question that started this round of discussion on this board). Netizen equates the hindu hostility to muslims with the chinese/korean hostility to japanese - and there may be some parallelism there (although japanese atrocities during wwii are still fresh, muslim invasions are ancient history).
Perhaps kalchakraa has some additional light to shed (as he indicates in his post).
HP added to my knowledge - I didnt know Begum Liaqat Ali Khan was a hindu. Are you sure??
What jang seem to be saying is that clear is that there is no real appreciation for the positive aspects of islam or muslims (and points to the low rate of conversion from hinduism to islam). That does not come as a surprise though - compared to centuries past, religion does seem to have become a less significant factor not across the world (it is hard to imagine that just about 400 years ago they were burning witches in America, and over a couple of hundred thousand anabaptists were burnt at the stake in europe between the 15th and 16th centuries for the crime of calling for baptism at adulthood rather than at childhood).
Nevertheless, religion remains a significant factor in the subcontinent in the sense of communal violence (in India) and sectarian violence (in Pakistan). So, while jang may be right in terms of his own circle of friends/relations, the fact is that for many hindus (and muslims) religion is a major cause of real life events (including the formation of Pakistan, which is the question that started this round of discussion on this board). Netizen equates the hindu hostility to muslims with the chinese/korean hostility to japanese - and there may be some parallelism there (although japanese atrocities during wwii are still fresh, muslim invasions are ancient history).
Perhaps kalchakraa has some additional light to shed (as he indicates in his post).
HP added to my knowledge - I didnt know Begum Liaqat Ali Khan was a hindu. Are you sure??
#169 Posted by tahmed32 on June 10, 2005 6:15:22 pm
*** PLease ignore #168 where some of the sentences are unreadable. the corrected version is below ***
There are some interesting points made here in the last several posts on this board.
What jang seem to be saying is that there is no real appreciation for the positive aspects of islam or muslims (and points to the low rate of conversion from hinduism to islam). That does not come as a surprise though - compared to centuries past, religion does seem to have become a less significant factor across the world, and the subcontinent has followed the same trend (it is hard to imagine that just about 400 years ago they were burning witches in America, and over a couple of hundred thousand anabaptists were burnt at the stake in europe between the 15th and 16th centuries for the crime of calling for baptism at adulthood rather than at childhood).
Nevertheless, religion remains a significant factor in the subcontinent in the sense of communal violence (in India) and sectarian violence (in Pakistan). So, while jang may be right in terms of his own circle of friends/relations, the fact is that for many hindus (and muslims) religion is a major cause of real life events (including the formation of Pakistan, which is the question that started this round of discussion on this board). Netizen equates the hindu hostility to muslims with the chinese/korean hostility to japanese - and there may be some parallelism there (although japanese atrocities during wwii are still fresh, muslim invasions are ancient history).
Perhaps kalchakraa has some additional light to shed (as he indicates in his post).
HP added to my knowledge - I didnt know Begum Liaqat Ali Khan was a hindu. Are you sure??
There are some interesting points made here in the last several posts on this board.
What jang seem to be saying is that there is no real appreciation for the positive aspects of islam or muslims (and points to the low rate of conversion from hinduism to islam). That does not come as a surprise though - compared to centuries past, religion does seem to have become a less significant factor across the world, and the subcontinent has followed the same trend (it is hard to imagine that just about 400 years ago they were burning witches in America, and over a couple of hundred thousand anabaptists were burnt at the stake in europe between the 15th and 16th centuries for the crime of calling for baptism at adulthood rather than at childhood).
Nevertheless, religion remains a significant factor in the subcontinent in the sense of communal violence (in India) and sectarian violence (in Pakistan). So, while jang may be right in terms of his own circle of friends/relations, the fact is that for many hindus (and muslims) religion is a major cause of real life events (including the formation of Pakistan, which is the question that started this round of discussion on this board). Netizen equates the hindu hostility to muslims with the chinese/korean hostility to japanese - and there may be some parallelism there (although japanese atrocities during wwii are still fresh, muslim invasions are ancient history).
Perhaps kalchakraa has some additional light to shed (as he indicates in his post).
HP added to my knowledge - I didnt know Begum Liaqat Ali Khan was a hindu. Are you sure??
#171 Posted by arjun_m on June 10, 2005 7:48:40 pm
well lookie here ana...another pakistani, full of innocence and love for his fellow humankind, driven into doing not so nice things because of hatred shown by hindus on the internet....
the hindus made me do it...that`s the paki equivalent of the twinkie defense....
Ties to Terror Camps Probed
An investigation of Pakistani Americans` alleged links to foreign training centers expands beyond Lodi. A fifth person is detained.
By Rone Tempest, Greg Krikorian and Lee Romney
Times Staff Writers
June 9, 2005
LODI, Calif. — Immigration officials in Sacramento detained a fifth person Wednesday as part of what authorities described as a widening investigation of a group of Pakistani Americans and recent immigrants, some of whom allegedly attended terrorist training camps.
The initial arrests of a Northern California father and son with alleged terrorist connections were the result of a several-year investigation focused on the Muslim community of this Central Valley agricultural center, an FBI official said Wednesday.
``We believe from our investigation that various individuals connected to Al Qaeda have been operating in the Lodi area in various capacities, including individuals who have received terrorist training abroad,`` said Sacramento FBI chief Keith Slotter.
Umer Hayat, a 47-year-old ice-cream truck driver, and his 22-year-old son Hamid Hayat, a worker at a fruit packing plant, were charged with making false statements to federal investigators after being arrested Sunday. Three others were detained on immigration violations.
Defense attorney Johnny L. Griffin III, a former federal prosecutor representing the father, said the relatively minor nature of the charges does not justify the amount of attention the government is giving the case.
Umer Hayat ``is being portrayed as a terrorist when all he has been charged with is making false statements to federal officials,`` Griffin said. ``This is painting a picture with a broad brush.``
At an arraignment Tuesday, a U.S. magistrate ordered Umer Hayat held without bail. Hamid Hayat is to be arraigned Friday.
The government`s record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished. After the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, for example, FBI fingerprint experts erroneously identified a Portland, Ore., attorney as a suspect. Spanish police had questioned the accuracy of the fingerprint match. A federal judge in Portland later dismissed the case, and agents apologized to the attorney, Brandon Mayfield, a Muslim convert.
In a Detroit case, federal officials announced charges against three North African men with great fanfare in 2001. After the government initially won convictions, the cases fell apart and were eventually dismissed.
At a news conference in Sacramento, Slotter said the bureau in the latest case had no details about specific plans for terrorist acts.
``We do not possess information concerning exact plans or timing of specific targets of opportunity,`` Slotter said. ``It has been reported that certain institutions such as hospitals and food stores were targeted. We do not have information that these or any other sectors in the United States have been primarily targeted or are specifically vulnerable to attack.``
Slotter disclosed that the younger Hayat, who was born in the United States but studied for years at his grandfather`s religious school in Pakistan, has been ``under investigation for an extended period of time.``
An FBI official in Washington confirmed that the arrests were part of a broader investigation into suspected Islamic militants within the Pakistani community in the United States, including Lodi. He said he could not discuss details of the probe or its findings to date, given the sensitivity of U.S.-Pakistani counterterrorism efforts.
Details about the direction of the federal probe were contained in an affidavit released Tuesday in which the younger Hayat allegedly told federal agents that he attended a terrorist camp in Pakistan for six months in 2003-04 and was instructed on attacking targets in the United States.
Included in the training, Hamid Hayat reportedly told agents, was target practice using pictures of President Bush.
Umer Hayat allegedly told investigators that he also toured camps operated by Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khalil, a family friend who once headed an organization identified by U.S. officials as a terrorist group. Both men allegedly made the statements after first denying any terrorist links.
Despite the FBI affidavit, family members in Lodi contend that the terrorist allegations are false. Salma Hayat, the mother of Hamid Hayat, said she was with him in their ancestral village of Hazro in the northern part of Pakistan`s Punjab province while he allegedly was at the training camp.
A cousin, Maher, said Hamid was too frail to participate in training. ``He was with his mom the whole time,`` the cousin said Wednesday.
At the Sacramento news conference, U.S. Atty. McGregor Scott said two other Lodi men, Muslim clerics Mohamed Adil Khan and Shabir Ahmed, have been detained by the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement on suspicion of immigration violations. On Tuesday, the FBI searched both men`s homes and offices, as well as the Hayat home in Lodi, confiscating videotapes, photos and computer equipment.
The immigration and customs office confirmed late Wednesday that agents had also detained Mohammad Hassan Adil on suspicion of an immigration violation. Adil is the 19-year-old son of Mohammad Adil Khan.
Federal agents have been scrambling in recent days to assess the significance of every potential lead.
``When you have two guys taken in, they are not your problem anymore,`` said one counterterrorism official, referring to the Hayats. ``Right now, we are trying to find their entire universe, and that takes time and effort, and it is critical that we do that immediately to see where, if anywhere, it leads.``
Authorities were chasing down leads outside of Sacramento, officials said. In San Francisco, for example, an FBI spokeswoman said agents have been following up on information developed by their counterparts in Sacramento. And in Los Angeles, a local counterterrorism official said it was too early to rule out the possibility that one or more of the men arrested in Lodi might have links to individuals there.
``This investigation is going to lead to other people,`` the official said. ``It will just take awhile to unravel.``
In Washington, several U.S. counterterrorism officials said it was too early to say whether there was an Al Qaeda sleeper cell in Lodi but that the arrests and detentions underscored how the terrorist network was still trying to recruit Americans.
For years, a senior U.S. counterterrorism official said, law enforcement and intelligence officials have closely monitored men traveling to and from Pakistan from the United States and watched as many attended madrassas, or religious schools, that often espouse a virulent anti-American curriculum.
The U.S. official said the madrassas became particularly important training grounds for Al Qaeda after the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan and even more so in recent months, as the Islamabad government launched crackdowns of its own in the tribal areas.
``In terms of actual military-style camps, there are only so many places where they can be, [and] not in urban areas,`` said the U.S. official. ``But in the madrassas, there is recruitment, indoctrination, selection. You can take a look at somebody in that setting and say, `Hey, that person can be a candidate for something bigger.` ``
The Hayat arrests have roiled this normally placid mid-sized city that describes itself in promotional brochures as ``Loveable Liveable Lodi`` and where many Pakistani Muslims have lived and worked for years.
``My concern is about the potential backlash,`` said Grace Presbyterian Church Pastor David Hill, who heads a local community relations organization. ``I`m a little concerned that some people might see this as a green light to go out and do something.``
George Gladius, bartender at Ollie`s bar, said he was frustrated by some people who ``don`t understand democracy, and they want to infiltrate our country.``
And Mike Lapenta, 75, a Lodi resident for 37 years, said, ``If these two guys have done something, then let them have it.
``I don`t think the majority of them are that way, but we wouldn`t be thinking people if we didn`t suspect there were a few more sympathizers`` among the immigrant population.
Lodi, a major Zinfandel winemaking center and fruit-packing town between the larger cities of Sacramento and Stockton, had a population of 57,037 in 2000. When the city`s mosque was attacked in 1995 by teenage white supremacists, who painted its walls with swastikas and threw flares through the windows, the community rose in support of the local Muslims, some of whom have lived in Lodi for decades.
One of the offshoots was the Breakthrough Project, the brainchild of former Police Chief Larry Hanson, who now serves on the City Council.
Like others in Lodi, Hanson is worried that the terror allegations against two of Lodi`s citizens will disrupt the balance of a predominantly white city that has large Latino and Pakistani Muslim minorities.
``It bothers me that there might be an Al Qaeda cell in Lodi,`` Hanson said. ``But we want to be careful that we don`t lump the whole Muslim community into this.``
Lodi Muslims, meanwhile, seem stunned by the developments, including the detentions of two religious leaders. Late Tuesday night, Lodi Muslim Mosque President Mohamed Shoaib huddled with other local elders after evening prayers.
``We`ve never had any problem in this town,`` said one of the men, who identified himself as the mosque treasurer but asked not to be named. ``My uncles came here in the 1940s. The city of Lodi and the police have done everything they can to make us feel welcome.``
Some people here were worried about the news scaring off potential visitors. Lodi has a developing wine tourism business.
Others, such as bartender Gladius, appeared to enjoy the attention.
``This puts Lodi in the news worldwide,`` Gladius said, ``but I don`t think it is a haven here for these guys. But it shows you they can pop anywhere.``
the hindus made me do it...that`s the paki equivalent of the twinkie defense....
Ties to Terror Camps Probed
An investigation of Pakistani Americans` alleged links to foreign training centers expands beyond Lodi. A fifth person is detained.
By Rone Tempest, Greg Krikorian and Lee Romney
Times Staff Writers
June 9, 2005
LODI, Calif. — Immigration officials in Sacramento detained a fifth person Wednesday as part of what authorities described as a widening investigation of a group of Pakistani Americans and recent immigrants, some of whom allegedly attended terrorist training camps.
The initial arrests of a Northern California father and son with alleged terrorist connections were the result of a several-year investigation focused on the Muslim community of this Central Valley agricultural center, an FBI official said Wednesday.
``We believe from our investigation that various individuals connected to Al Qaeda have been operating in the Lodi area in various capacities, including individuals who have received terrorist training abroad,`` said Sacramento FBI chief Keith Slotter.
Umer Hayat, a 47-year-old ice-cream truck driver, and his 22-year-old son Hamid Hayat, a worker at a fruit packing plant, were charged with making false statements to federal investigators after being arrested Sunday. Three others were detained on immigration violations.
Defense attorney Johnny L. Griffin III, a former federal prosecutor representing the father, said the relatively minor nature of the charges does not justify the amount of attention the government is giving the case.
Umer Hayat ``is being portrayed as a terrorist when all he has been charged with is making false statements to federal officials,`` Griffin said. ``This is painting a picture with a broad brush.``
At an arraignment Tuesday, a U.S. magistrate ordered Umer Hayat held without bail. Hamid Hayat is to be arraigned Friday.
The government`s record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished. After the Madrid train bombings in March 2004, for example, FBI fingerprint experts erroneously identified a Portland, Ore., attorney as a suspect. Spanish police had questioned the accuracy of the fingerprint match. A federal judge in Portland later dismissed the case, and agents apologized to the attorney, Brandon Mayfield, a Muslim convert.
In a Detroit case, federal officials announced charges against three North African men with great fanfare in 2001. After the government initially won convictions, the cases fell apart and were eventually dismissed.
At a news conference in Sacramento, Slotter said the bureau in the latest case had no details about specific plans for terrorist acts.
``We do not possess information concerning exact plans or timing of specific targets of opportunity,`` Slotter said. ``It has been reported that certain institutions such as hospitals and food stores were targeted. We do not have information that these or any other sectors in the United States have been primarily targeted or are specifically vulnerable to attack.``
Slotter disclosed that the younger Hayat, who was born in the United States but studied for years at his grandfather`s religious school in Pakistan, has been ``under investigation for an extended period of time.``
An FBI official in Washington confirmed that the arrests were part of a broader investigation into suspected Islamic militants within the Pakistani community in the United States, including Lodi. He said he could not discuss details of the probe or its findings to date, given the sensitivity of U.S.-Pakistani counterterrorism efforts.
Details about the direction of the federal probe were contained in an affidavit released Tuesday in which the younger Hayat allegedly told federal agents that he attended a terrorist camp in Pakistan for six months in 2003-04 and was instructed on attacking targets in the United States.
Included in the training, Hamid Hayat reportedly told agents, was target practice using pictures of President Bush.
Umer Hayat allegedly told investigators that he also toured camps operated by Maulana Fazlur Rehman Khalil, a family friend who once headed an organization identified by U.S. officials as a terrorist group. Both men allegedly made the statements after first denying any terrorist links.
Despite the FBI affidavit, family members in Lodi contend that the terrorist allegations are false. Salma Hayat, the mother of Hamid Hayat, said she was with him in their ancestral village of Hazro in the northern part of Pakistan`s Punjab province while he allegedly was at the training camp.
A cousin, Maher, said Hamid was too frail to participate in training. ``He was with his mom the whole time,`` the cousin said Wednesday.
At the Sacramento news conference, U.S. Atty. McGregor Scott said two other Lodi men, Muslim clerics Mohamed Adil Khan and Shabir Ahmed, have been detained by the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement on suspicion of immigration violations. On Tuesday, the FBI searched both men`s homes and offices, as well as the Hayat home in Lodi, confiscating videotapes, photos and computer equipment.
The immigration and customs office confirmed late Wednesday that agents had also detained Mohammad Hassan Adil on suspicion of an immigration violation. Adil is the 19-year-old son of Mohammad Adil Khan.
Federal agents have been scrambling in recent days to assess the significance of every potential lead.
``When you have two guys taken in, they are not your problem anymore,`` said one counterterrorism official, referring to the Hayats. ``Right now, we are trying to find their entire universe, and that takes time and effort, and it is critical that we do that immediately to see where, if anywhere, it leads.``
Authorities were chasing down leads outside of Sacramento, officials said. In San Francisco, for example, an FBI spokeswoman said agents have been following up on information developed by their counterparts in Sacramento. And in Los Angeles, a local counterterrorism official said it was too early to rule out the possibility that one or more of the men arrested in Lodi might have links to individuals there.
``This investigation is going to lead to other people,`` the official said. ``It will just take awhile to unravel.``
In Washington, several U.S. counterterrorism officials said it was too early to say whether there was an Al Qaeda sleeper cell in Lodi but that the arrests and detentions underscored how the terrorist network was still trying to recruit Americans.
For years, a senior U.S. counterterrorism official said, law enforcement and intelligence officials have closely monitored men traveling to and from Pakistan from the United States and watched as many attended madrassas, or religious schools, that often espouse a virulent anti-American curriculum.
The U.S. official said the madrassas became particularly important training grounds for Al Qaeda after the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan and even more so in recent months, as the Islamabad government launched crackdowns of its own in the tribal areas.
``In terms of actual military-style camps, there are only so many places where they can be, [and] not in urban areas,`` said the U.S. official. ``But in the madrassas, there is recruitment, indoctrination, selection. You can take a look at somebody in that setting and say, `Hey, that person can be a candidate for something bigger.` ``
The Hayat arrests have roiled this normally placid mid-sized city that describes itself in promotional brochures as ``Loveable Liveable Lodi`` and where many Pakistani Muslims have lived and worked for years.
``My concern is about the potential backlash,`` said Grace Presbyterian Church Pastor David Hill, who heads a local community relations organization. ``I`m a little concerned that some people might see this as a green light to go out and do something.``
George Gladius, bartender at Ollie`s bar, said he was frustrated by some people who ``don`t understand democracy, and they want to infiltrate our country.``
And Mike Lapenta, 75, a Lodi resident for 37 years, said, ``If these two guys have done something, then let them have it.
``I don`t think the majority of them are that way, but we wouldn`t be thinking people if we didn`t suspect there were a few more sympathizers`` among the immigrant population.
Lodi, a major Zinfandel winemaking center and fruit-packing town between the larger cities of Sacramento and Stockton, had a population of 57,037 in 2000. When the city`s mosque was attacked in 1995 by teenage white supremacists, who painted its walls with swastikas and threw flares through the windows, the community rose in support of the local Muslims, some of whom have lived in Lodi for decades.
One of the offshoots was the Breakthrough Project, the brainchild of former Police Chief Larry Hanson, who now serves on the City Council.
Like others in Lodi, Hanson is worried that the terror allegations against two of Lodi`s citizens will disrupt the balance of a predominantly white city that has large Latino and Pakistani Muslim minorities.
``It bothers me that there might be an Al Qaeda cell in Lodi,`` Hanson said. ``But we want to be careful that we don`t lump the whole Muslim community into this.``
Lodi Muslims, meanwhile, seem stunned by the developments, including the detentions of two religious leaders. Late Tuesday night, Lodi Muslim Mosque President Mohamed Shoaib huddled with other local elders after evening prayers.
``We`ve never had any problem in this town,`` said one of the men, who identified himself as the mosque treasurer but asked not to be named. ``My uncles came here in the 1940s. The city of Lodi and the police have done everything they can to make us feel welcome.``
Some people here were worried about the news scaring off potential visitors. Lodi has a developing wine tourism business.
Others, such as bartender Gladius, appeared to enjoy the attention.
``This puts Lodi in the news worldwide,`` Gladius said, ``but I don`t think it is a haven here for these guys. But it shows you they can pop anywhere.``
#173 Posted by ana on June 10, 2005 8:50:13 pm
arjuna, #171
how come you didn`t highlight the section that says the government`s record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished???!!! geez louise! and what does this have to do with hindus on the internet?
your ``lookie here approach while thumbing your nose`` is getting old and tired. is it at all possible for you to find a different approach to express your feelings? try it. look at kaalchakraji, he`s trying a different approach from his previous ones and has got people talking to him. you can do it too arjun, you have the technology. . . .
thanks for reposting the article. i had already heard about it.
how come you didn`t highlight the section that says the government`s record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished???!!! geez louise! and what does this have to do with hindus on the internet?
your ``lookie here approach while thumbing your nose`` is getting old and tired. is it at all possible for you to find a different approach to express your feelings? try it. look at kaalchakraji, he`s trying a different approach from his previous ones and has got people talking to him. you can do it too arjun, you have the technology. . . .
thanks for reposting the article. i had already heard about it.
#174 Posted by arjun_m on June 10, 2005 9:09:33 pm
#173 by ana on June 10, 2005 8:50pm PT
how come you didn`t highlight the section that says the government`s record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished?
And O.J. Simpson got off....so, by your logic, the DA should stop prosecuting every murderer the cops bust....
Now that it`s clear that there are plenty of pakistani jihadis who didn`t get that way because they were exposed to the hatred of the hindus, you make lame arguments?
to find a different approach to express your feelings?
This isn`t about my feelings...this is about a bunch of pakis being busted for terrorism and a bunch of pakis who support islamic terrorism....and about hollow claims(made by pakistanis) about pakistanis being full of love and against fundamentalism....how I express it doesn`t change that fact...
wtf do you want me to say? poverty makes a majority of pakistanis support islamic terrorists who would kill Indians and Americans?
how come you didn`t highlight the section that says the government`s record on terrorism arrests is not unblemished?
And O.J. Simpson got off....so, by your logic, the DA should stop prosecuting every murderer the cops bust....
Now that it`s clear that there are plenty of pakistani jihadis who didn`t get that way because they were exposed to the hatred of the hindus, you make lame arguments?
to find a different approach to express your feelings?
This isn`t about my feelings...this is about a bunch of pakis being busted for terrorism and a bunch of pakis who support islamic terrorism....and about hollow claims(made by pakistanis) about pakistanis being full of love and against fundamentalism....how I express it doesn`t change that fact...
wtf do you want me to say? poverty makes a majority of pakistanis support islamic terrorists who would kill Indians and Americans?
#175 Posted by KaalChakra on June 10, 2005 9:51:18 pm
I cannot believe the nonsense I wrote about hatred, earlier in the day today...What an ugly example of blind rationality devoid of any uplifting sense of morality.
HP, thanks! That was very impressive, and educational for me. Had no clue about the three interesting UP`ians. Your portrayal of early Jinnah is right on, and needs to be appreciated.
Are you sure about Sir Syed not being very educated? He rose to the position of a subjudgeship and wrote a few books. I guessed that might have put him among the most educated back then.
HP, thanks! That was very impressive, and educational for me. Had no clue about the three interesting UP`ians. Your portrayal of early Jinnah is right on, and needs to be appreciated.
Are you sure about Sir Syed not being very educated? He rose to the position of a subjudgeship and wrote a few books. I guessed that might have put him among the most educated back then.
#176 Posted by KaalChakra on June 10, 2005 9:58:38 pm
tahmed32
With your permission, I will get back to the issue tomorrow. Right now, the very subject of hatred is making me feel uneasy.
With your permission, I will get back to the issue tomorrow. Right now, the very subject of hatred is making me feel uneasy.
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