Last Rites in Kashmir or a New Journey?

#28 Aha_Snark
“It can, if the paradigm is moved beyond a zero-sum game scenario. For example, say, a uniform strategy for Primary Health Care implemented in both Indian and Pakistani Kashmir could, conceivably, be done with both sides agreeing.”

Some other areas would be Tourism, common wholesale markets for agriculture products and fruits, and Small home based industries. These and many other areas can be prime targets for a non intrusive type of cooperation between the two Kashmir.

#29 by Netizen
“Indians have forgotten Kargil and Mushy`s deeds?”
History books are full of such acrimonies. Yes! Pakistan and India had more skirmishes during the Congress rule but they have talked more too. Familiarity breads confidence.
About Kasuri-
Kasuri’s father was a former congressi. If you ask him as a private individual, who would he like to go to dinner with in India, He would reel off several names, and none of them would have last names like Advani or Vajpayee.
Sonia rocks!

#35 by BeeJay
“does it not appear curious that few have come up to counter my points!”

There is nothing sensational about your remarks. We have been hearing them for the last 57 years and that act is now stale.

#36 by Raw_Dust

I am glad that you are a Pakistani. Unlike the Pakistani Army, people of Pakistan are generally democratic and live with diversity of opinion. You are entitled to your opinions and nobody has any problem with that.

I am glad that you’re not Indian. You see what they are doing with Advani over there and how about the guy who wrote the thread above about Godhra inquiry. He is being treated to some nice welcome comments. Please also read Romair’s post on Advani thread where he talked about Altaf Hussein and Advani.
An extract here.
#289 on Advani thread.
“Recently Altaf Hussain - the third most powerful politician in Pakistan - went to India, and stated that the whole creation of Pakistan was a grave mistake. He didn`t just praise Gandhi/Nehru etc. He disregarded the whole creation of his homeland, where he was born!! Other than a little hoopla in the media, nothing changed in Pakistani politics. He is still the powerful head of his party. He is still in alliance with the Musharraf govt. His party still runs Sind. Politics goes on, as usual.........”

Personally, I am a great admirer of GM Syed, Wali Khan and Ghous Bax Bizenjo and in Pakistan had the honor of meeting them on several occasions. I never considered them anti Pakistan. They were/are Pakistanis with a different opinion about Pakistani politics.

#289 by Romair

[Recently Altaf Hussain - the third most powerful politician in Pakistan - went to India, and stated that the whole creation of Pakistan was a grave mistake. He didn`t just praise Gandhi/Nehru etc. He disregarded the whole creation of his homeland, where he was born!!

Other than a little hoopla in the media, nothing changed in Pakistani politics. He is still the powerful head of his party. He is still in alliance with the Musharraf govt. His party still runs Sind. Politics goes on, as usual.........]

But that is because he is a stooge of Musharraf, and we all know what happens when someone close to El Presidente is criticized. On the contrary, India is a democracy so there is no sacred cow and everyone is fair game.

#26 by HP

[Just one more doubting Thomas!]

Nope. As you will discover once you`ve read the entire post.

[Most of the Indian erroneously believe that Pakistan claims ownership of Kashmir.]

Bhai Sahab, we have been hearing this from Pakis for the last 57 years. If what you say is true, why is that in the so-called ``Azad`` Kashmir, every candidate contesting the local elections required to sign an undertaking in the nomination form promising his/her whole-hearted support to Kashmir`s accession to Pakistan? A few years ago, JKLF chief Amanullah Khan was not allowed to contest because he refused to sign this undertaking. The JKLF which started the armed rebellion against Indian rule has virtually been sidelined because it advocated independence, while pro-Pakistan outfits such as the Hizb-ul-Mujahideen been allowed a free run. Can you explain this please?

Oops!! #46 does not belong here.

raw dust: you too? i also am from pakistan and feel the creation of pakistan was a total blunder.

wow, my family and i are not alone afterall. :)

Another bombshell from Jammu: J-K disputed, says its Congress minister


Make it a federal state with foreign and defence affairs under Indo-Pak control: Minister Babu Singh’s ‘individual views’
EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE


Posted online: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 at 0200 hours IST

JAMMU, JUNE 7: Jammu and Kashmir’s Minister for Finance Babu Singh, an associate Congress Party member, today threw a bombshell when he described the state as ‘‘disputed territory’’ and suggested that it be made a federal entity with foreign and defence affairs under the joint control of India and Pakistan.

Addressing a packed press conference here, Singh said that Kashmir was a triliteral issue to be sorted out among the people of India, Pakistan and J-K. Leaders ‘‘should not stress on it being an integral part of India,’’ he said.


‘‘Jammu and Kashmir should be made a federal state, with India and Pakistan having joint control over defence and foreign affairs. For the peaceful future of South Asia, there is a need to take bold steps,’’ said the minister.

‘‘Jammu and Kashmir is a multi-ethnic state and different ethnic regions may be given autonomous units under a federal state,’’ said Singh.

Although Singh clarified that these were his ‘‘individual views’’, it’s for the first time that any J-K Minister has expressed such opinions in public.

Singh, who joined the Congress as an associate member a year ago, also demanded that India announce a unilateral internal ceasefire in J-K.

‘‘It is a must that armed conflict should be stopped so that it cannot sabotage the ongoing peace process,’’ said Singh. He added that detenues should be released and sought a check on human rights violations by both security forces and militants.

Strongly opposing a military solution, Singh said there should a joint meeting, without any pre-conditions, involving the people of India, Pakistan, J-K and PoK to discuss a roadmap which is acceptable to all.



http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=71889

Stop calling Kashmir integral part of India - Indian Minister of State for Finance


Jammu, June 7 : Minister of state for Finance Babu Singh Tuesday said that India should stop calling Kashmir as an integral part of the India.
The Congress minister acknowledged the representative character of the Hurriyat Conference by stating that it does represent the people but only of valley and not the entire state.
Singh, who is also an associate member of the Congress party has questioned the Kashmir policy of Congress led central government by stating that the repeated insistence of Indian government that Kashmir is an integral part of the India was hampering the peace process.
‘It is an old problem and it should be accepted’, the minister added.
Addressing a press conference here Jammu, the minister said that Hurriyat’s visit to Pakistan does have representative character.
‘ Hurriyat has a representative character but is limited to valley and does not represent the persons of Jammu and Ladakh which have different aspiration’, he added.
The Congress member giving out proposal in his individual capacity said that “there should be a joint control of India and Pakistan in the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir and PAK as well,”.
Calling for joint conference to this problem, for lasting solution, the minister said that a conference to be attended by all mainstream parties in J&K, separatist, parties of PAK and other political parties of India should be held so that a long lasting consensus could emerge.
The minister said that both countries should agree on a treaty which should clearly stipulate that gun and war is no solution to any problem.

Take Kashmiris` will into account: Advani:-


Karachi | June 04, 2005 5:43:47 PM IST


Karachi, June 4 : Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) chief L.K. Advani said Saturday the ``will`` of all Kashmiris ``must be`` taken into account to resolve the dragging dispute over the state.

``The will of the people of Jammu and Kashmir is a must for resolving the issue,`` Online news agency quoted Advani as saying while talking to reporters along with Sindh Governor Ishrat-ul-Ebad here.

``However, it should not be forgotten that different regions of Jammu and Kashmir are divided into diversified communities, and their viewpoint should also be kept in view,`` Advani added.

Advani avoided a query about the ongoing visit of Hurriayat conference leaders to this country.

``Specifics are decided by the government rather than the opposition. I am in the opposition now, but I want to remind you that our government had initiated the dialogue process with the Hurriyat leaders, and I had personally met with them two-three times,`` Advani pointed out.

``The Opposition`s role is to strengthen the consensus and dialogue on particular issues. So, I am here to strengthen the dialogue process,`` he maintained.

Advani said that both the governments should try to resolve the Kashmir issue with patience, optimism and determination.

``I have met (various leaders) and I am glad to see that both the government and the opposition want the peace process to continue. I have no hesitation to say that both countries have a consensus on this issue,`` he maintained.

It was the responsibility of both countries to take the peace process to its ``crucial`` conclusion.

The BJP leader said it was hard to even imagine four to five years ago about the current conducive atmosphere and determination of the two countries to resolve their lingering disputes.

``This is a credit to the BJP, which had initiated this process. We are glad to see that a change of government in India has not affected the process, and the incumbent government led by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is pursuing our initiative``, he added.

Now, the peace process should be made irreversible, Advani said.

Terming his visit to Pakistan, especially his hometown Karachi, a ``historic`` occasion, Advani said he was visiting the metropolis after 27 years, and could not express his happiness in words.

To another question, he said his ancestral home was located in the Jamshed Quarters neighbourhood of Karachi east.

(IANS)

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=85745&cat=India

BJ #41: you write ``hasn’t the “Hindu” animosity increased multiple-fold (and is now located just across the border)?``

I thought I made quite clear in #37 that I recognize that hindu animosity still exists, and that (thanks to the formation of Pakistan), it ends where the Pakistan border begins. So, you already have the answer to this question.

Similarly, I made it quite clear in #37 that I recognize the cost paid in terms of human lives. So, no need for this reminder either, my friend.

scott #40 agreed. there are good and bad people in ever society. only trouble is that hindus were the majority, and too many hindus seem to think this gives them a right to insult and ridicule religious minorities (particularly muslims and christians) as being ``converts`` (as if that is a dirty word) or traitors.

shishapa #44 please re-read my post #37 and you will see that far from ``regurgitating those unfounded silly charges`` of hindu animosity, i base it on some undeniable facts.

i am sorry if the term ``hindu animosity`` offends you - i dont like such distinctions based on religion, race, etc. myself, and consider us to be humans first and last - but at the same time it would be naive to ignore the above-mentioned facts.

#53 TAhmed

You haven’t answered my question – was the “cost” worth the “benefit”? Yes or No?

(Once again, don`t go ``fuzzy`` on me. I know you are too smart to play dumb! Be a MAN for God`s sake and give a straight answer for once.)

BJ #56 I consider the cost to have been too high given the large scale killings of 1947. And I think the british are to blame since they were the departing authority, and left in an irresponsible manner like the french king who said ``Apres moi, le deluge``; and the newly formed indian and pakistani governments are to blame, for not doing anything either (Gandhi was the sole exception, as he went on hunger strike to end the communal killings in Bengal). And indians and pakistanis in general are to blame for never calling for justice to be served to the criminals who did the killings from their side.

But, those are ``sunk costs`` and therefore irrelevant to the situation today, as financial analyst will tell you. Pakistan is a reality. And the benefits of a separate nationhood (not having to live next to muslim-hating hindus being one, but not the only one) outweigh the ``incremental costs`` today.

#52 by dionysus on June 8, 2005 2:37am PT

None of this translates into a territorial concession by India....If you think otherwise, you`re deluding yourself....

Re # 54

So when Muslims consider theirs is the only true religion, Allah is the only god, Quran is
the final and only book, rest are all false books and god, non-believers are Kafirs,
non-muslims are just suppoed to take it. I think there are enough i.e. majority of the muslims who believe in this.
Can Hindus use this excuse to exclude Muslims (such as drive out) from where they
are majority? Would that be right?
How can you generalize the perceptions to all of the population? The same BJP was defeated by Indian population in the poll. Resorting to extra judicial methods for imagined
grievances is really bad to thing to do.

Muslims cannot use such lame excuses and ask for separation and countries and destroy families in that process.

Re # 54

On a similar note, whites are majority in USA and if (note if) most consider, even they
do not show, they are not superior to non-white, are you going to ask for a separate
country?

Should african americans be justified in asking to carve out a country for
themsleves somewhere in Southeast of USA and justifiy the ``sunken costs`` for the
human life that will involve for the purported benefits of not having to live next to
racist (not outwardly showing) white american and not having to live with competing
with whites for jobs, education etc..