Advani in Karachi

hindivi:
Your point about the difference between Tilak and Sir Syed is well taken. But both did espouse communal identities.

Yasser Bhai, thank you for taking over Beena Didi`s artkul. You deserve the award again of Sitar-e-Anarkali, Bulbul-al-Gulburger and not to forget Scottish Grey Hound Racer-of-Lahore Railway which are herewith presented to you.

Tell me, did you also take Honourable Many Many Shaker and Mover Aiyar ji to the most famous Dunking DoDo(till not expired due to going dead as)-nuts or the even more famous Kentucky Fry (and barbecue til stocks last) Chikun?

Also is there any connection between Advani ji lunch at Zardari Mansion and subsequent Zardari Heart Attack?

And finally is there any chance of providing Lal Ji with a birth certificate dated, say, 1948?

Jai Siyapati Ram Chandra ki!! May the return to Manora and Lahore be as happy as the visits to Ajmer.

Those are admirable qualities of Jinnah that you list. But if you leave the saintly halo aside there is much to be admired in Gandhi atleast as an individual and politician. He is by far the best innovator of mass politics in the 20th century. he understood the mechanics of democracy and the psyche of the Indian masses far better than any one else. he had an extra ordinary intensity and self discipline. he was consummate in the skill of confrontation while avoiding violence. he could move an audience just by his silence and he was an avowed democrat. did he have short comings sure he did, but than didnt Jinnah too. But as a politician and as a student of democratic mass politics Jinnah didnt have a patch on Gandhi.

Re: # 147

I have my own views on Gandhi ... but I won`t take the bait. I accept that he was able to sway the masses and was a very good marketer. I personally don`t see his democratic credentials as sterling... but that is a separate issue.

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Re: # 149

Yes... the great Mujahid had quite the taste for pork sausages as well...

No as Muslims its our pious duty to emulate the greatest mujahid ever and EAT PORK SAUSAGES.

After all he was ``follower of the Sharia in letter and spirit in his own life, applying Islamic priciples and laws in his daily discourse``. Thank you Maulana Echoboom for finally allowing Pork sausages, scotch whiskey and Chablis in the realm of Islam.

Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad
Islam Paindabad!

Facts speak for themselves, Gandhi was able to keep far more of his constituency together and with him at the end of the negotiations than Jinnah was. So atleast as far as politics goes Gandhi proved more succesful.

Two great ideas:

1. God created man so the latter may study His Creation. And Einstein is iconic figure for this idea.

And this idea led man from the caves to the moon and the planets in the 20th century, and will no doubt lead him to the stars and other dimensions in future.

2. In studying Creation, man has developed the technology to destroy himself. And so there is no solution other than peace. And Gandhi is the iconic figure for this idea.

And this idea is essential if man is to fulfill his destiny per 1. above.

Please elaborate... How, when and where... In any event, as I mentioned earlier my criterion for admiration for Jinnah is not based on success alone... infact it is based on the points enumerated enough.

If we are going to claim point blank that facts speak for themselves... Gandhi`s inability to stop Jinnah from making Pakistan ... or as Louis Fischer puts it in that acclaimed Gandhian biography ``History intervened to upset Jinnah`s plans and then able Jinnah upset history``.

Ofcourse I reject these over-romanticized darthvader vs Yoda view of history.

Re: # 153

This was addressed to Hindvi.

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Where: India, When: August 15, 1947 and How: Well as you can see there are only 14 crore people in pakistan where as there are 40 crore muslims in the subcontinent. Gandhi`s constituency is overwhelmingly in India. And remember it was Jinnah himself who repeatedly and publicly insisted that he was the sole spokesman and the muslim league the sole representative of the indian muslims, to the extent that he refused to take part in the government if the congress nominated maulana azad or any other muslim congressman.

So if jinnah was the consumate negotiator and politician you assume him to be why did he get outnegotiated? or was he not really committed towards his constituency which is even worse because it shows his character in very poor light.

I agree that in this nature had dealt Gandhi a stronger hand, for it was hindus who were in a majority, but nonetheless one would expect an astute politician to atleast avoid damaging and then loosing his own constituency. They say in cards as in Life a good player wins even with a weak hand, where as a poor player will loose even with a good one.

Jinnah had a reasonable hand and he managed to stay in the game for a while, but his brinkmanship and bluffing was played once too often and without any hedge/cover so once the bluff was called instead of adapting to the rules he threw the cards in the air and walked off. Only in this case the cards were humans lives.

Re: # 139 shish

I see your point. I think you are right. Jinnah, Advani - these people are one of a kind.

Only difference is that the end result of Jinnah`s politics turned out to be very beneficial for India [ an un-intended consequence] - but the end result of Advani`s politics would be detrimental to it.

That`s the reason I said Jinnah was the best thing ever happened to india - sort of a back-handed compliment to Jinnah :) Of course - Jinnah`s intention was quite different. He was drunk with islamo-fascist ideas - that muslims are different than everybody else and cannot live with hindus ..... And he converted a lot of people into his line of belief. Once that was done - there was turning back.

But not again. That`s why people like advani, geelani and modi and all other modern-day wannabe-jinnahs have to be stopped.

re: Dost-Mittar

I agree, with you that progress in India-Pakistan process of rapprochement has been slow. I think that it would be rather naive to assume that 58 years of hostility and mistrust, will be swept aside after only two years of political dialogue. The biggest hurdle to the overall solution is the rigidity of the mental prejudices, which both sides have about each other and which makes the leadership in both nations wary of undertaking bold decisions.

Ciao

Re: # 156 hindvi
//....but his brinkmanship and bluffing was played once too often and without any hedge/cover so once the bluff was called instead of adapting to the rules he threw the cards in the air and walked off. Only in this case the cards were humans lives...//

Truer words have never been spoken.

hindvi #156 All you are saying is that Jinnah won with merely 14 runs and not with 40 runs. He did win, you must admit though. And not just win...time is proving him right. Pakistanis are better off as a separate nation. This despite the fact that I am all for peace with India, for appreciation of India`s rich history and culture, for learning from India`s great democratic traditions built up over the past 50 years, and for jumping on to the global market bandwagon alongside India - this is all icing on the cake, which was the formation of Pakistan.