Advani in Karachi

Repeating the same old bogus view that Null has been parrotting for the last 5 years. India clearly isn`t much different... and most Indians find Pakistan cleaner richer healthier less and less poverty stricken...

Your view doesnot explain a number of things... for example why is it that a middle class person like myself, whose paternal grandfather was a motor mechanic... and great grandfather was a station master in Lahore ... who comes from religious minority within a minority... has the resources to live a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis on chowk are from middle class background... and not part of the ``kleptocratic elite`` as you put it...

Pakistan has its problems but India has the very same ... whether those who live in fools` paradise wish to accept it or not.... then what has India been suffering from ? What elite is that ? That ``massive sense of entitlement`` you keep referring to is nothing but a verbose phrase ... that you have been using again and again to sound ``intellectual``. In reality you don`t have a clue.

So I suggest you either start putting up something concrete (instead of trying to impress upon us your ``intellectual prowess`` which beyond fancy words is zero) ... who is ``this kleptocratic elite`` ... who is it on Chowk? Is it Romair? Is it me? Is it Beena Sarwar? Is it Bina Shah? Are the chowk founders part of it ? And why is it that in real terms this ``kleptocratic elite`` is less visible in Pakistan`s national life? Was Musharraf part of this elite? Was Shaukat Aziz born into it? Who is it? The feudals? The Army? The westernised upper society of Lahore Karachi and Islamabad? Who?

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``and most Indians find Pakistan cleaner richer healthier less and less poverty stricken... ``

Thats what you say. Even so , if thats what they think , they would be wrong. For facts are that concentration of poverty (35% of the population) in Pakistan is far greater than that in India (23% of the population). Per capita income of Indians higher than than of Pakis. India ranks higher on human development indices. Significantly , per capita electricity consumption in India (570 kilowatt hours /year) is higher than that in Pakistan (300 odd kilo watt hours /year) too - which means power infrastructure is better in India.

Re: # 50

In essence India and Pakistan are both ruled by post colonial ``Kleptocratic`` elites... with a ``massive sense of entitlement``.

The difference: Pakistan`s dressed in military uniforms/business suits, India`s in dhotis.

Ironic... more more of Pakistani elite (which speaks fluent accentless angreji) speaks in the national language .... from what I understand, and what was confirmed by Mr Mani Shankar Aiyar (he apologised for speaking in English by saying that in Posh Neighborhoods of Delhi it is a crime to speak in Hindi) yesterday ... it is a matter of absolute insult for the accented dhoti wallah elite of India to speak in anything but English.

Re: # 51

Dear friend... I acknowledge your statistics... but I am telling you the common perception of the Indians.... so start convincing them.

They are the ones who get wide eyed by seeing our airports and our motorways and our service stations and our smartly dressed cops, both men and women, in Honda Civics and Land Cruisers....

I absolutely and totally accept your statistics....

echoboom...you are one of my favorites on chowk. But sadly chowk-staff in their infitinite wisdom have seen it fit to reduce your interact index to 0. So your posts are filtered out and not available for public view. I suggest getting a new ID and coming back as echoboom123.

Dear Cuckolded Fool ,

Facts are facts. Perceptions of a select few in a given situation which can be manipulated hardly reflect the reality. How come a country as wonderful as yours ranks 144 on the human development index ? How come your per capita is hardly 450$ ? How come only hardly 40% of your adult population can read/write ?

MantoLives wrote
``Your view doesnot explain a number of things... for example why is it that a middle class person like myself, whose paternal grandfather was a motor mechanic... and great grandfather was a station master in Lahore ... who comes from religious minority within a minority... has the resources to live a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis on chowk are from middle class background...``

i dont have any numbers, but this is utter hogwash mr. mantolives. The middleclass i know of in Pakistan particularly in Karachi and the one you are talking about are two different entities, i guess.

Re: # 55

Yes facts are facts. Now why are you behaving badly when I accepted above your statistics?

Re: # 56

Since when did you become an expert on all things Pakistani ?

My conscience is perfectly clear.... what I have said is the truth. Hogwash is when every Indian, with internet access and a biased bigoted mind, decides that he is an expert on Pakistan and Pakistani society.

Expert on Pakistan? i claim no expertise whatsoever... i was just talking from my first hand experience.

you did write complete BS dude, own it up or shut up.

Re: # 59

I maintain what I wrote what was the truth... whether you wish to accept it or not is entirely up to you. As for your first hand experience... doesn`t mean it is everyone`s first hand experience. I wrote of my personal experience.

I suggest you maintain civility because clearly you are not going to convince me of your views by this cyber violence.

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AlphaNull #48: Your remarks are correct and incorrect at the same time........

Every third world country has an elite, which controls it. Some control it illegally and some just benefit from their status of being in the top 5% of the country, without being illegal.

Pakistan`s eilte, as a whole, is probably not too different from India`s or any other country`s. Each has its own problems. Pakistan, on the whole, has statistically been the fastest growing area in South Asia, after independence. I don`t think there is any contest there. It had nothing in 1947, not even an educated urban class. Way behind India. And within a few decades, its standard of living was the highest in South Asia. It is only in 1999, after Pakistan`s disastrous economic decade of 90s, that India passed Pakistan on the HDI scale.

I think one can safely say that, considering where everyone started from (which in case of the Pakistani population was extreme illiteracy and poverty), the standard of living of the average person of geographic region of Pakistan, has risen the highest. Do keep in mind, that at the time of creation, many people thought Pakistan would not even survive...........Everyone thought India would survive...

All of this could not have happened, if there was nothing more to Pakistan than an useless elite.........

This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan. None of us is from the middle class, although many of us had parents and grandparents who were from the middle or lower middle class of Pakistan.........

Less than 1% of Pakistan has Internet access at home. Far less than 1% has foreign degrees. A tiny minority owns its own car. A tiny minority has air-conditioning at home. A tiny minority has an English newspaper subscription. All of us on Chowk have, most, if not all of the above. Hence all of us on Chowk, thus, are, thus, part of the .01 - .05% of Pakistan. We are 1 in 1000 to 1 in 200, of Pakistan. Hence we are not in the middle class by any means. We are in the rich of Pakistan (as are probably the Indians on this site also), whether we admit it or not..........Not the filthy rich of Pakistan, but the rich........

However, our parents and grandparents were not like that. My grandfather, on my father`s side, lived in a village. Some of my second and third cousins still live there. My father was born in a village, and grew up there till his teens. Only going out for schooling. Yet it was purely through Pakistan that he moved into the upper middle class. And now, I am, at least by income, in the upper class of Pakistan............

So you need to keep everything in perspective (unless of course your aim is to just denounce Pakistan, in which case perspective is not important). Pakistan has its entrenched powerful self-serving elite, which has always had heridatory rights over the poor, i.e. they were born into wealth, mostly through land ownership. But there is another group also, whose previous generations, actually worked hard, through the opportunities provided by Pakistan, to grow from lower-middle and middles class to upper class..........

Nawaz Sharif father used to work in a brick kiln (poor class). Nawaz Sharif became the PM of Pakistan (albeit it a corrupt and useless one). Musharraf`s father was a civil servant (middle to slightly upper middle class). Imran Khan`s father was a civil servant. Mahboob-ul-Haq`s father was a village teacher. Altaf Hussain was a simple pharmacist and student leader. Qazi Hussain was a geogrphy teacher. Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub Khan weren`t from rich families either (although their kids are, specifically Ayub`s). Many of Pakistan`s top business families started from very humble backgrounds as small shopowners........

When Pakistan was created, its only elite were the landowning families, and a small number of business families (most of whom migrated from India). Anyone else, today, that you see as the elite of rich of Pakistan, reached there from humble beginings, within Pakistan............

presenting yourself as a middleclass guy is a bit of a stretch IMO.. i know hardly any Middle Class guy who is gone to an American school for his undergrad.

i hope next time you dont have to write another post to qualify your previous statements.

Romair:
``All of this could not have happened, if there was nothing more to Pakistan than an useless elite......... ``

Exactly, Massacres of Bangalis, Balochis, killing fields setup in Afghanistan in early 90s, ocassional rape or two, collusion with Feudal Class throughout 90s to bring down or bring up elected governments (through ISI).. whatlese did you forget that CouldNOT have happened without this Elite. i am speechless.