Advani in Karachi

#78 by arjun_m

That is from a guy who did his time in Bomaby transporting beer bar dancers in a rickshaw and now drives a pimpmobile for living...

#74 by blanks..
``your not knowing what alephnull`s are. ``
Blank,
Still not sure of what I think of A-hole? So you know where A-hole`s nuts are Good for you... have a good relationship...

Now advani is clearly wrong on this...ask a majority of pakis on chowk(heck, ask capt clueless) and they`ll tell you pakiland was destined to be an Islamic country....

`Jinnah favoured secular Pakistan`

KARACHI: In what is expected to have severe political repercussions within his own saffron clan, BJP chief LK Advani on Saturday attributed secular credentials to Mohammad Ali Jinnah, while paying ``respectful homage`` to the man who has been bashed by the Sangh Parivar for the last 55 years for propagating the two-nation theory and creating Pakistan.

http://sify.com/news/politics/fullstory.php?id=13833025

Vadodra: Terming BJP President LK Advani a ``traitor`` for ``glorifying`` Pakistan`s founder leader Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the international general secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) Pravin Togadia on Sunday asked the BJP leader to give up his Lok Sabha seat.

Togadia, who was in Padra town for a Durgavahini function, said Jinnah had demanded the creation of Pakistan on the basis of religion and his Muslim League party had adopted a resolution to this effect in Lahore in 1940. Jinnah had presided over the meeting, he added.

``How can Advani describe Jinnah as an Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity,`` he asked questioning Advani`s visit to the Pakistani leader`s mausoleum.

One million Hindus were killed in Pakistan in 1946 during partition, Togadia said.

``Jinnah was a traitor, is a traitor and will remain a traitor and person glorifying him is also a traitor``, said Togadia, demanding that Advani also resign as Leader of Opposition from Lok Sabha.``

Why is RSS/VHP so upset....

Romair #62

{{This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan.}}

Romair – Chowkies are a self-selected sample. It’s plausible that Pakistanis with regular Chowk access, self-funded undergraduate degrees from US universities, etc. will typically be from prosperous backgrounds today. Many of them may well come from families that saw rapid upward mobility post-1947 – being in the right place at the right time, etc. It doesn’t follow that they are representative of more than a small well-connected fraction of the Pakistani population. But you probably don’t disagree with this.

{{Every third world country has an elite, which controls it.}}

The question is whether and to what extent that elite perpetuates itself – corners disproportionate resources – denies huge groups of people any voice while claiming to speak on their behalf and safeguard their interests.

You will probably admit that there is an identifiable group in Pakistan that does just that – namely your favourite bugbear, the feudals. You are just reluctant to concede that there are other unrepresentative groups who are doing the same thing at a national level, with just as evil consequences for the people of Pakistan.

In India, for all its mess, dysfunction and corruption, awareness of rights and modest prosperity has spread quite wide and deep. There are a large number of groups who have gained an effective political voice, who make demands of the system and extract concessions, jobs and subsidies (often at the expense of fiscal viability – free power and water to farmers, etc). Their leaders and mouthpieces are often not that ‘presentable’ by Anglicized notions of presentability – which apparently amuses some well-connected Pakistanis no end. Access to power in India – to milk the system and even rob it blind - is just not the preserve of ‘polished’ ‘sophisticated’ ‘unaccented-English speaking’ urbanites (feudal-backgrounded or otherwise). For good and bad, that is a fruit of five decades of democracy.

I have disagreements over various other remarks of yours but they’ll simply lengthen this response without covering any new ground – so I’ll pass for now.

re: this article
There is a saying in hindi/urdu: ``Sau Choohey khaakey billi Haj ko chalee``.
Advani, after spending a lifetime being a hawk and ``muslim hater`` is now finding a new vocation: being pro-Pak and a peaceneck!
All i feel like saying is: damn these politicians. They have no morals.
It is not whether he is right or wrong but the guy has no ``beliefs`` and changes like a chamelion. Even Gopal Godse (who believes to this day that his brother Nathurram Godse was right in assasinating Gandhi) has some belief system and sticks to it, however abhorrent that belief system is to rest of us. But the likes of Advani have none.

Advani is changing because the realpolitick in India is making him change his stance. He aspires to follow in the shadows of ABV but BJP has figured out (from last General Election) that they just can`t win a majority without support from muslims. This change at the very top is essential. Remember, BJP have not ousted Modi for his genocide in Gujarat. In the past, ABV and Advani played the ``good cop bad cop routine`` to perfection. Now, the ``bad cop`` role will be in the hands of the lower rung of BJP cadres, people like Modi, Uma Bharathi. They will try and entice the lower caste votes and may still use anti-muslim rhetorics. But the top BJP cadre is trying to present a good face to the world. Advani as a hawk may not be acceptable to US as head of state (if he ever becomes one), so he has to change his image. It is after all only an image. Few would be privy to Advani`s real intentions.
This brings me to the point i want to make. People`s democracy, when allowed to function, does have a great impact on the way politicians think and behave. People, in a real democracy, dictate policies and politicians follow such policies. Advani`s political somersault is a triumph of Indian democracy.
That is why Mantolive is so wrong when he says: (In essence India and Pakistan are both ruled by post colonial ``Kleptocratic`` elites... with a ``massive sense of entitlement``).
Pak has always been ruled by elites but not India. Lalloo Yadav, Advani, ABV are not elites. They have to go again and again to the masses for enlisting support. Mantolive needs to understand how democracy works before shooting off his mouth. I see Advani`s reconciliation to the present realpolitick in India (which seems to reject any form of fundamentalism at least at the highest level) as a triumph of democratic forces in India.
Sridhar

AlephNull #84: My intention is not to prove that Pakistan is better than India. For those comparisons, I tend to rely on statistics, from research. The best one that I know of is the HDI by the UN. Based on this, uptil 1999, Pakistan was ahead of India, and now India is ahead.........On the whole, both have generally swam in the same waters........If you can provide certain different statistics, I would be happy to consider them...........

``Chowkies are a self-selected sample``

Yes, this is true. Which has always been my point........

``The question is whether and to what extent that elite perpetuates itself – corners disproportionate resources –``

There is a value called the Ginni Coefficient. The higher the value, the poorer the distribution of wealth. Please check the values for India, Pakistan and other third world countries, to get an answer. After that, please let me know, what you discovered........

Statistically speaking, from 1947, the average Pakistani has had the size of his/her economic pie expand more than anyone in South Asia. These are statistical facts. So the elite grew, but so did the living standard of other Pakistanis. From starting as the boondocks of the Sub-Continent, by 1990, Pakistan had poverty down to 18%..... It is the disastrous 90s that brought Pakistan`s poverty levels to new highs - 33% by 2000.........It is now starting to reduce again, however...........

So, on the whole, Pakistan is no different in creation and distribution of economic resources that other South Asian countries, on average. Better than most, over a 50 year average. It is behind in distribution of political empowerment........The tragedy of Pakistan is that despite having the highest economic growth rates in South Asia, it hasn`t been able to do more. There was a time in the 60s when Pakistan was on a higher trajectory of progress than Turkey, Malaysia etc.

``I have disagreements over various other remarks ``

Kindly provide credible statistics to back up your stances.......that way it disassociates it from personal opinions.............

The discussion about a visit aimed at promoting peace between the two countries degenerates into the same old fights!

The scene: the modest mishra residence in south kolkota in 2002. I am visiting only for a few days, the remainder of my family is unable to join me from the US. Several family members kindly come by to chat and visit with me. A young man in his 20s who is my cousin visits with his friend (a colleague from work). My cousin has completed a certificate in management and is enthusiastic about changes in Kolkota.

At some point we discuss Babri Masjid and history of islam in south asia. My cousin has a long list of complaints: jaziya, aurangzeb, destruction of hindu temples etc. etc.

I agree with him. Just like with hindu traditions, there are many aspects of islam that are unfortunate. One of the most unfortunate is islamosuperemacy. It has been easy for islamic rulers to claim islamic justification for whatever nonsense they want to perpretrate against many ``others``.

Then i ask him: you have completed a certificate in management. You understand management by objectives. What should india`s objectives be? Should they be compensation for every slight from the islamic period or should it be building the world`s most powerful economy? Should we build the world`s largest ram mandir or the world`s largesy economy??

He is thoughtful. His colleague is more blunt. We should a powerful economy. There has been injustice in the past but this is our chance to really change something.

I say nothing. We finish our cha, the sandesh and singharas from the local mishti-dokan are excellent. I wish them good luck and good bye.

re: Romair # 86

In the early years Pakistan did grow faster than India did.

However, today`s Pakistan is different from what Pakistan was until 1960s. Between 1980s and 9//11, Pakistan`s challenges consistently expanded, and the nation`s ability to deal with its challenges kept sliding.

Post 9/11, Pakistan has moved in the reight direction. If it maintains the momentum, it may pick up speed quickly.

MANTOLIVES...Whaddya have to say for this list?.Also, why do you persist in comparing India and Pakistan, when there is none, except for cultural links between border states?.Give it up and let`s talk about Advani and ways to improve relations between the two countries, shall we?.

1 World $ 55,500,000,000,000 2004 est.
2 United States $ 11,750,000,000,000 2004 est.
3 European Union $ 11,650,000,000,000 2004 est.
4 China $ 7,262,000,000,000 2004 est.
5 Japan $ 3,745,000,000,000 2004 est.
6 India $ 3,319,000,000,000 2004 est.
7 Germany $ 2,362,000,000,000 2004 est.
8 United Kingdom $ 1,782,000,000,000 2004 est.
9 France $ 1,737,000,000,000 2004 est.
10 Italy $ 1,609,000,000,000 2004 est.
11 Brazil $ 1,492,000,000,000 2004 est.
12 Russia $ 1,408,000,000,000 2004

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html

Jinnah was the greatest man to be born in South Asia after Buddha. He helped us get independence from British and saved us from the new imperialist rulers of New Delhi. He does not need Advani`s praise. A leopard never changes its skin. If Advani is sincere then he should apologize for the his government’s crimes and specially the crimes against humanity that Indian government has committed in held Kashmir and offer Kashmir to its rightful owners, the Kashmiri people.

Re: # 91

Yeah?.What about the pak government`s crimes against the people of HELD `Azad` kashmir, the peoples of HELD Baluchistan who desperately want to become a free nation, the people of HELD Waziristan and Christian minorities who are hunted for sport in random killings, not mentioning the killing of Shia muslims in targeted sectarian murder?.You must be grateful we indians are taking the high road and allowing extra time for you and your country to reach it`s ignominious end.Only a matter of time,people, before the bubbly overfloweth on the streets of India in celebration.

Link to pics of the Wagah border..............

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=4363440#post4363440

Romair #86

{{My intention is not to prove that Pakistan is better than India.}}

In that case there’s absolutely no reason why you should be getting testy and overly defensive.

{{For those comparisons, I tend to rely on statistics, from research.}}

It’s entirely possible to lie or mislead the unwary with statistics presented out of context.

{{There is a value called the Ginni Coefficient. The higher the value, the poorer the distribution of wealth.}}

The latest Gini indices I could find (late 90s for both Pakistan and India) have Pakistan at 41, India at 38 (i.e. Pakistan’s income distribution being somewhat more unequal than India’s). For comparison, the US is at 45 (2004).

Single numerical indices can be misleading without context. The same Gini coefficient could arise from an infinity of different cumulative income distribution curves. It would be somewhat instructive to see the actual distributions for various countries.

Income inequality is not evil in itself. I would actually expect growing or restructuring dynamic economies to have larger Gini coefficients that stagnating ones. Note the US Gini index – thank Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell etc. for that.

What is interesting is to get at the root of whether the income inequality is caused by newly rich people who’ve made their money by providing a useful new good or service – or whether it’s a consequence of entrenched rentiers hanging on to what provides them a permanent income. The Gini index tells you nothing about economic dynamism in a population or about the source and sustainability of its income.

{{The tragedy of Pakistan is that despite having the highest economic growth rates in South Asia, it hasn`t been able to do more. There was a time in the 60s when Pakistan was on a higher trajectory of progress than Turkey, Malaysia etc. … Kindly provide credible statistics to back up your stances.......}}

Romair, I could if necessary dig up books like Omar Noman’s ‘Political Economy of Pakistan, 1947-85’ and Kabir Ahmad’s ‘Breakup of Pakistan’. I could give you figures on massive resource transfers from East Pakistan to West Pakistan to explain how industrial growth in the West during Ayub’s era was financed by foreign exchange earnings from East Pakistani jute, and also track the increase in income disparity between the wings during that period. I could provide historical context starting with the Korean War and going through the six points to the eventual separation of theEast Wing.

I know where to look, and you probably know all this too, although you haven’t the fortitude to admit it. That is why I tried to steer clear of this well-known history.

cayenne
Yes and there is a reason why the Pakistani border gate is called Bab-e-Azadi - ``Independence gate``.

Re: # 95

You betcha.....the gate to independance for Baluchistan, Waziristan,NWFP, Christians and other minorities, Shias and other randoms from tyranny.