Advani in Karachi

are there powerplays going on in the BJP as to who would become the future leader of BJP? Is there a conflict between Modi and Advani?

It is such irony when you think this man was screaming death to muslims only a few yrs agao, but i welcome the change of preceptions and the coming of common sense on both sides.

ADVANI WILL HAVE A LOT TO ANSWER THE B.J.P. CADRE AND THE SANGH PARIVAR. ALL WILL BE DECIDED AT THE MUMBAI CAMP (NATIONAL STUDY CAMP), WHICH BEGINS ON JUNE 10. THE B.J.P., RIGHT NOW, IS KEEPING QUIET, BOUND BY PROTOCOL, BUT ARE LIKELY TO RESPOND IN A FEW DAYS.
STILL, WHY DID ADVANI MAKE THIS STATEMENT, RIGHT NOW? IS THE B.J.P. RE-THINKING ITS `AKHAND-BHARAT` THEORY? CURIOUS..........
LETS WAIT AND WATCH...............

Bina,

Yesterday I met Mani Shankar Aiyar in Lahore and interviewed him... and ofcourse one of the questions I asked him was about Jinnah...

He made two points... 1) That ``Quaid-e-Azam`s`` earlier role as best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity was a major fact of Indian history 2) Quaid-e-Azam`s espousal of the two nation theory was also a major fact of Indian history.

He said that he didnt agree with the latter position of the Quaid-e-Azam for obvious reasons but what I surprised was that while I specifically said ``Jinnah``, he always referred to him as the Quaid-e-Azam.

Ofcourse this has a very significant psychological impact... Pakistanis have been calling Gandhi ``Mahatma Gandhi`` for a very long time (whether I like it or not)... its good that there was reciprocation.. as these things will go a long way in burying the hatchet between Pakistan and India...

-YLH

Indian politicians have started a new and interesting duel on Jinnah it seems...

SanghParivar vs Lalu and the Gang...


Deccan Herald » News Update » Detailed Story



Advani a traitor says Togadia

Vadodra, PTI

Terming BJP President L K Advani as a ``traitor`` for ``glorifying`` Pakistan`s founder leader Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the international general secreatry of VHP, Pravin Togadia today asked the BJP leader to resign his Lok Sabha seat from Gandhinagar.



Terming BJP President L K Advani as a ``traitor`` for ``glorifying`` Pakistan`s founder leader Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the international general secreatry of VHP, Pravin Togadia today asked the BJP leader to resign his Lok Sabha seat from Gandhinagar.

Togadia, who was in Padra town for a Durgavahini function, said Jinnah had demanded creation of Pakistan on the basis of religion and his Muslim League party had adopted a resolution to this effect in Lahore in 1940. Jinnah had presided over the meeting, he added.

``How can Advani describe Jinnah as an Amassador of Hindu-Muslim unity`` he said and questioned Advani`s visit to the Pakistani leader`s Mausoleum.


One million Hindus were killed in Pakistan in 1946 during partition, Togadia said.

``Jinnah was a traitor, is a traitor and will remain a traitor and person glorifying him is also a traitor``, said Togadia, demanding that Advani also resign as Leader of Opposition from Lok Sabha.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1132820.cms
Sangh sore over Advani’s remark on Jinnah

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ SUNDAY, JUNE 05, 2005 02:57:07 AM]
Surf `N` Earn -Sign innow
NEW DELHI: The contradictions within the Sangh parivar were on full display on Saturday when the RSS-VHP combine reacted sharply to BJP president L K Advani’s description of late Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, as a “secular” person, who was also “a symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity.”

Advani, who’s currently on a visit to Pakistan, today visited Jinnah’s mausoleum in Karachi. In what is seen by most Sangh parivar leaders as a desperate bid to get rid of his past, which has often come in his way to find broader acceptance within the country, the BJP president paid homage to Jinnah.

For the RSS and its affiliates, Jinnah is held as the person who sowed the seeds of Muslim fundamentalism and who ultimately forced the partition of the country on religious lines. Advani’s “somersault” on Jinnah, therefore, took everyone aback.

“All these years, we had been taught that Jinnah was responsible for the partition of India on religious lines. The Lahore resolution, passed by the Muslim League in 1940, explicitly stated that Hindus and Muslims cannot stay together,” RSS spokesman Ram Madhav said here this evening.

“Our cadres are not happy with Advani’s statement, as has been reported in the media. To some extent, they’re angry also,” Ram Madhav said, adding, “We’re obviously not in agreement with Advani.” The VHP leaders were, however, not so restrained. “Mr Advani should apologise for his remarks,” asserted VHP general secretary Praveen Togadia. For the VHP leadership, Advani’s latest observations have come as yet another proof of his “betrayal” of the Hindu cause.

The RSS is likely to seek an explanation from Advani on his return to the country. It is clear, however, that relations between Advani and rest of the Sangh parivar may not remain the same again.

Meanwhile in Karachi, the BJP chief said Jinnah’s August 11, 1947 address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan was really “a classic, a forceful espousal of a secular state in which while every citizen would be free to pursue his own religions, the state should make no distinction between one citizen and another on grounds of faith. My respectful homage to this great man”.

Earlier Advani commented the division of India and Pakistan an “unalterable reality of history.”

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=302529

Lalu hails Advani`s `change of heart` on Jinnah and Pakistan
PATNA, JUNE 5 (PTI)
Railway minister Lalu Prasad today welcomed BJP President L K Advani`s utterances at the mausoleum of Pakistan`s founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah stating even if belated, his (Advani) words were from the core of his heart and criticised the VHP, RSS for their adverse response to Advani`s comment.

``Advani`s praise of Jinnah is his natural reaction towards Pakistan`s founder. All his earlier utterances against Pakistan seemed to be artificial,`` Prasad said at a RJD function here.

Taking a potshot at hardliner Hindu organisations like VHP and RSS for protesting Advani`s statement on Jinnah, the RJD supremo said ``they (the VHP and RSS) seem to have forgotten that Advani is a Pakistani by birth and how can he speak lies at his birthplace.`` He said Advani, who is an accused in the murder of Jinnah, seems to have realised his `mistakes` and now is speaking factually correct things.

``I welcome Advani`s statement on Jinnah though belated,`` he said and advised Advani to stand firm on his statement and not take a u-turn in view of protest from the saffron brigade.

Prasad said he and his party had from the very beginning been championing the cause of better relationship between India and Pakistan, but the `communal forces led by BJP` had always tried to create roadblocks by sometimes queering the pitch to prevent Pakistani players from playing in India.

Prasad was addressing a party function to mark the `Sampoorna Kranti divas`, the day on which Loknayak Jayprakash Narayan had in 1974 given a call for total revolution at historic Gandhi Maidan here.

Advani had only quoted Jinnah, say aides
K G SURESH KARACHI, JUN 5 (PTI)
With his remarks praising Pakistan founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah causing a flutter within the Sangh Parivar, BJP President L K Advani`s aides today sought to play down the controversy by releasing copies of the Qaid-E-Azam`s speech in which he had favoured creation of a secular state.

``You are free, you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state,`` Jinnah had said in his address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947, according to an excerpt from the book `Towards Jinnah`s Pakistan.` The excerpts of the speech were made available to the accompanying journalists by Advani`s media managers.

``In course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual but in the political sense as citizens of the State,`` Jinnah is quoted as saying in the historic address.

In his remarks in the visitors` book at Jinnah`s mousoleum yesterday, the former Deputy Prime Minister had said the Pakistan founder`s address was ``really a classic, a forceful espousal of a secular state in which while every citizen would be free to pursue his own religion, the state shall not make any distinction between one citizen and another on grounds of faith.

RSS and VHP have termed as ``unfortunate`` Advani`s statements on the Babri Masjid demolition and Jinnah. Reacting to Advani`s praise for Jinnah, RSS said yesterday that such remarks were against his ideology. Meanwhile, an aide said ``Advani had only recalled what Jinnah himself had said. Similary, he had quoted freedom fighter Sarojini Naidu, who had described him as an Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.`` On the strong reactions evoked by Advani`s statement that the Ayodhya demolition was the ``saddest day of his life,`` they said, ``what is new? He has made similar statements earlier also.`` They recalled that while on Babri demolition, he had termed it as ``most unfortunate`` in the past, he had even termed the Gujarat violence as a ``blot.

Manto,
Has Mani Shankar said something for the preservtion of the Laxmi Mansions?

There are interesting news articles about the varied reactions over Advani`s statements in the Indian Express today.One of the most interesting is from Lalu Yadav who has been staunch opponent of Advani and BJP. He says that this is for the first time that Advani is speaking truth and that all his previous statements were artificial and he asks his critics that that how can a person tell lies at his birth place.
Definitely it is going to be a big challenge for BJP to defend this in India but at the same time they now have a chance to come out of the shadow of RSS.

Mantolives,
Pal, don`t give high marks to Mani Shankar Aiyar. The man talks crap a lot of times. He is not popular in his own constituency, where he won because of peculiar coalition dynamics.

Re: # 6

He said that the petroleum companies in India were willing to fund Lakshmi mansions restoration and renaissance... :)

Re: # 7

I don`t give Mr Aiyar high marks but he is a well intentioned gentleman...

I would say Jinnah was a horrible hindooo fanatic...after all he got us rid of 2/3rd of the jihadi populace....

Advani`s statements must have pleased Modi more than most. For statements like that dilute Advani`s credibility and diminish his standing among that section of India`s population (hardcore hindu..small time traders , middle class professionals , government servants , angry unemployed/underemployed youth , code coolies etc.) that is opposed to everything about Pakistan. This section , comprising a voting population of 200-250 million is RSS/BJP`s lifeline.

So , given context of the power struggle that was going on between the ambitious middle- aged Modi and the geriatric half-dead Advani , Modi has received an unexpcted boost with Advani`s self-destructive ramblings in The Land Of The Pure.

Advani is now a spent force electorally and will never win an election again. RSS backed Modi will now assume the mantle of BJP`s top player. Advani will be made to quit.

I like Advani. Advani comes out as a sound politician. Every word is well calculated. Not a single superflouos word. But he can still convey his mind.

``Territorial integrity of both countries to be respected for Kashmir solution``. ``Kashmir has people of many different faiths``.

He is also in a great health for his 78 years. Loud and clear voice. A very alert mind. And probably original teeth.

Hurriyat are moving around and giving speeches. They seem to have reconciled and seem to be ready for to an out-of-box solution. The mixing of both sides has taken the sting out of the Kashmir demon. Only a little more time is reqired for this blah-blah-blah to go on until the normal folks get on the same frequency. And then Governments can pick up the courage to say something. The Governments staying one step behind the masses is a safe long term strategy.

The peace process is doing Ok.

nhk

A huge advantage of Modi becoming BJP`s top man is that he is a lower caste hindu. If BJP is to win , it needs to snatch the lower caste hindu voters from the likes of Lalu and Mulayam. So Modi as the face of BJP will not only consolidate the hardcore hindutva voters , but also get the support of the lower caste hindus . If the middle class and lower caste hindus get together behind BJP , that would guarantee electoral success.

Old men out of touch with the realities of India like Advani and Vajpayee were holding BJP back. BJP has to replace those geriatric fools with real representatives of today`s India > Backward caste hindu leaders like Modi , Uma Bharthi , Kalyan Singh etc.

BJP lost the last election because of their feeble attempt to attract muslim voters instead of wooing the lower caste hindus. Muslims will never vote for BJP. Dont waste time on them. Go for lower caste hindus - Yadavs , Dalits and Tribals. Its not a mere co-incidence that in most of the states where BJP is in power , the Chief Ministers are from the lower castes - Modi (Gujarat) , Ram Yadav (MP) , Arjun Munda - a tribal (Jharkand) ...

Hindu voters need to be consolidated - regardless of caste differences. This can be done by raising the muslim bogey....demonising muslims instead of wooing them.

``I like Advani. Advani comes out as a sound politician.``

Unfortunately for Advani Nazar Khan wont be able to vote for him. He could do with all the support he can get. The hindu voter is angry with him now. The anger was always there , but has now come to the fore. If Advani stands for election in his constituency - Gandhinagar (a stronghold of the RSS) again , he is guaranteed to lose even his deposit. Hindus want Modi now.

#5 by Mantolives on June 5, 2005 5:29am PT

It doesn`t mean they give a pakis rear about jinnah...It means they know you`ll be 7 feet tall when they say positive things about jinnah...

They`re just beghairat hindus....they`ll say whatever you want to hear as long as it doesn`t cost them...

Try this...tell them that if they admire jinnah so much, they should hand over Indian Kashmir to Pakiland so the legacy of the partition can be left behind...

Re: # 8, wait till the petroleum companies start financing the local elections and subsequent, dude.

Re: # 4, and did you ask him how much a new birth certificate for the Parvez Musharaf stating a DOB of, say, 1957, would cost?

The shae of things in context with Pakistani politics would be so interesting then!!

Re: # 15

Dear arjunm,

Please read my post again... we hardly need your patronisation for our heroes. Its just that I think it has a good psychological affect for the general winds of peace.

Clearly these things seem to matter more in India than Pakistan... Dawn for example didn`t carry the story... Daily Times carried a small blurb... but most of the Indian Papers carried it as frontpage news....

If Sharon goes on a tour of Germany and cries out `Heil Hitler` , elaborating on the compassion and humanity displayed by ol`Adolf , it would make big news too....and not only in Israel....

Re: # 19

Precisely... but Sharon wouldn`t... because it would not make sense.

However Advani`s comment and the reaction to it by the Hindu right wing confirms that the view of history you chaps are taught is not accurate...

What Advani said makes no sense either .... now the old man will never win an election again...

There is a difference between a visit to another country, and how one should act there, and one`s local political policies and beliefs.

When a leader visits another country, he/she is not going as an individual (even if it is an individual visit). One goes as a formal representative of a political party and a country. This demands that certain protocols are followed. The visit also has certain political purposes, behind it.

Advani has made a decision to visit Pakistan. There must be some political advantage for him, or his party, or his country, etc. in doing so. Once he has done that, he is bound to follow the protocol. And Pakistan is bound to provide him a certain protocol, as a prominent leader of another country..........

And politicians are experts at saying things that the crowd, they are amongst, wants to hear. That is the key skill for being a politician. So I think people are getting overly worked up about what he said - - both in a negative an positive sense - about Jinnah .

As a politician, he said what the crowd wanted to hear. Which shows his political skills. What else did people expect him to say? That Jinnah was a jerk and Pakistan should not have been created..........And that Babri Masjid was not a mistake.........That wouldn`t have gone over too well in Pakistan.......

History is being rewritten in India. Today Advani tomorrow…who knows…

...And at Sulekha.com they are calling Gandhi Ji a British agent and loyalist!

About Gandhi…
“A man having such a servile devotion to the Empire, a man who based his loyalty to Britain on his own idea of Truth, who was professing his loyalty to the Crown past his fiftieth birthday, cannot be expected to have truly relinquished something he had cherished so much. What occurred instead is that he became disillusioned with the Empire, externally opposing it yet internally never disengaging his emotional attachment to the Empire that still professed the ideas he cherished. His attachment to the Empire was still evident during the twenties and afterwards, especially during the transfer of power.”

“He [Gandhi] hoped that they would believe him when he said that the want of the knowledge of English language did not prevent Indians from following the course of events with accuracy and interest. It was the Indians` proudest boast that they were British subjects. If they were not, they would not have had a footing in South Africa.”

A quote from Gandhi Ji
“When the ultimatum was presented by the Transvaal, some of them thought it was time when they should sink all differences, and, as they insisted upon rights and privileges as subjects of the Queen, do something to prove their loyalty. ...They - that is the English-speaking Indians - came to the conclusion that they would offer their services to the Colonial or Imperial government, unconditionally and absolutely without payment, in any capacity in which they could be useful, in order to show the colonists that they were worthy subjects of the Queen.”

..And here goes Gandhi again...

Hardly ever have I known anybody to cherish such loyalty as I did to the British Constitution. I can see now that my love of truth was at the root of this loyalty…The National Anthem used to be sung at every meeting that I attended in Natal. I then felt that I must also join in the singing. Not that I was unaware of the defects in British rule, but I thought it was on the whole acceptable. In those days I believed that British rule was on the whole beneficial to the ruled.
The color prejudice that I saw in South Africa was, I thought, quite contrary to British traditions, and I believed that it was only temporary and local. I therefore vied with Englishmen in loyalty to the throne. With careful perseverance I learnt the tune of the `national anthem` and joined in singing whenever it was sung. Whenever there was an occasion for the expression of loyalty without fuss or ostentation, I readily took part in it …Never in my life did I exploit this loyalty, never did I seek to gain a selfish end by its means. It was for me more in the nature of an obligation, and I rendered it without expecting an award...I likewise taught the National Anthem to the children of my family.

More to follow...

Certain misunderstandings on both sides of the border are coming to the fore.

Two in India:

1. that Jinnah sowed the seeds of Muslim separatism in India.

2. that Jinnah was an Islamic fundamentalist.


Two in Pakistan:

3. that there is something called Akhand Bharat that Hindus politicians in India want to recreate.

4. that political leaders in Hindu parties want to humiliate and kill Muslims.


No matter what Advani does, none of these four firm beliefs will be shaken easily.

Some more from Sulekha.com…the Official RSS site…

“One of the reasons for Gandhi`s decision to organize an Ambulance Corps was given in a letter he sent to a W. Palmer, who had complained of a few ``Arabs`` not donating money to the English effort. Gandhi wrote to her to “Please assure the self-sacrificing ladies that no Indian could have declined to assist from want of sympathy. We are all fired by one spirit, viz., the Imperial, and we all know what sacrifice volunteers and those they have left behind have committed.” But it was not just the contagious ``Imperial spirit`` that drove Gandhi – the Boer War was going to be a way for Gandhi`s Congress to display how loyal they were to the Crown. Gandhi made this clear in a speech he made to the Ambulance Corps the first day they proceeded to the front:”


Aryan invasion never happened… … Not to Ganghi Ji…

“I venture to point out that both the English and the Indians spring from a common stock, called the Indo-Aryan. I would not be able, in support of the above, to give extracts from many authors, as the books of reference at my disposal are unfortunately very few. I, however, quote as follows from Sir W. W. Hunter`s Indian Empire:
“This nobler race (meaning the early Aryans) belonged to the Aryan or Indo-Germanic stock, from which the Brahman, the Rajput, and the Englishman alike descend. Its earliest home visible to history was in Central Asia...”
… This belief, whether mistaken or well founded, serves as the basis of operations of those who are trying to unify the hearts of two races, which are, legally and outwardly, bound together under a common flag.”

How could Gandhi Ji write this…

“With the greatest respect to Your Honour, we beg to point out that both the Anglo-Saxon and the Indian races belong to the same stock. We read Your Honour`s eloquent speech at the time of the second reading of the bill with rapt attention and took great pains to ascertain if any writer of authority gave countenance to the view expressed by Your Honour about the difference of the stocks from which both the races have sprung up. Max Muller, Morris, Greene, and a host of other writers with one voice seem to show very clearly that both the races have sprung from the same Aryan stock, or rather the Indo-European as many call it.
We have no wish to thrust ourselves as members of a brother nation on a nation that would be unwilling to receive us as such, but we may be pardoned if we state the real facts, the alleged absence of which has been put forward as an argument to pronounce us as unfit for the exercise of the franchise...It has given us no small satisfaction to know that, however unjust Your Honour`s speech may have appeared to us from our point of view, it breathed truest sentiments of justice, morality and, what is more, Christianity. So long as such a spirit is noticeable among the chosen of the land, we would never despair of right being done in every case. “

HP


Gandhiji`s `fortunes` have changed dramatically in the two countries. Indians inreasingly aspire for material power on world stage. To many of them, Gandhi appears to be a roadblock. Pakistanis seek peace at home. To many of them, Gandhi appears to show the way.

There is nothing pious about Advani`s visit to Pakistan.
He just wants to promote himself from a local politician to Global statesman before all hell breaks loose about 2nd rung politicians of BJP trying to usurp his seat.
Like all other politicians, his bag contains more colours to adorn (as the ocassion suits) than a chamelion.
Even before he sets foot back in India, his tune will change like Prez Musharraf`s tune changes with milage added to his travel ininary.

why filtering?

why filtering?

why filtering?

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HP aka Hacked Penis ...

Hatred/contempt for Gandhi and his idealogy is nothing new as far as many Indians are concerned. Patriotic Indians have always hated Gandhi. They even killed him. Way back in 1948. Many of us consider Gandhi to be anti-hindu and anti-India.

More than Gandhi , its the worshippers of Gandhi that Indians dread and treat with vehemence. Had the Gandhians been in charge of India any longer , India would be on the brink of sub-saharan poverty. Infact `India` wouldn`t exist today as Gandhians are anarchists and do not believe in the concept of a `Nation-State`.

Advani is a normal democratic politician – not a member of that rare breed with scruples. He will say whatever he thinks the situation demands of him.

I pity those nincompoops who take his comments on Jinnah at face value. Pakistanis were his bakras in May 1998 and some still are today.

Re: # 34

As usual Alephnull`s chaddis are on fire and his comments are as usual way off mark. Well clearly only Indians have taken his statements seriously... since they have them on the front page of every major newspaper in India...

Which Pakistani Newspaper has it on the front page? Dawn, Jinnah`s own newspaper, didn`t even report it. Look ... we don`t need your patronisation in any way.

Right Manto! A-hole`s chadd i is on fire and I will put so many flames in by the time this thread is over that his nuts would fall off.

#35 ,

Advani`s statements on Jinnah have made headlines because they raise questions on the old man`s senility , and have a significant bearing on the power struggle within the BJP between Advani and Modi , effectively putting a fullstop on the old man`s slagging career.

Remember the democratic primaries when Howard Dean was seen to be the front runner for the candidacy until he had the `Dean Moment` ( YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH!!) , after which he simply imploded ? That got a lot of publicity.

Well...Advani has just had his `Dean Moment`...

“The leader`s assertion comes two days after his declaration in Islamabad that the demolition of the Babri Masjid was the ``saddest day`` of his life and that his image and persona were not the same.”

Now isn’t this guy who actually led the charge?

But why is he saying what he is saying?

The reason is here!
The fear that RSS would be officially declared a terrorist organization that it is.

“the US think tank on this issue, has used but it has gone on to label RSS, the patriarch of Hindutva organizations, BJP, VHP, Bajarang dal etc., as a terrorist outfit. RSS shares this category with other organizations defamed in different parts of the World as terrorists like Al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, Hamas etc. Sangh`s (RSS progeny) own definition and understanding of terrorists has been summed up by RSS pracharak
(propagator) and current Gujarat Chief Minister, Narendra Modi in the sentence, ``All Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims!`` How come a Muslim baiter organization itself has been so labeled!”

Advani is a parchark since the days he lived in Sindh. The poor guy is putting out his neck out to save the RSS. He needs to show that he and the organization he represents, the RSS are both secular and non terrorist.

The other part is the Indian Muslim votes. No party in the current India can win elections with out the Muslim vote and he knows that.


More on this as I find time...

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HP...there are a million `think tanks` in the US . Some influential , most not . Can you even name the `think tank` that considers RSS to be a terrorist outfit ? Even you can start your own `think tank` sitting in your trailer trash...

This is a simple and straightforward presentation of the account of Advani’s visit, sans comments based on political leanings! That’s always a refreshing change.

I honestly believe that there ought to be a term limit of some sort on all these OLD political leaders (both within the executive structure as well as within political parties). They get entrenched within political bases and stifle new leadership from coming up. More importantly, they stifle all new and creative ideas!

Notes:

[Pakistan is not pressing forward with the FIR lodged at Karachi`s Jamshed Quarters police station, on September 10, 1947, against Advani, ….]
Isn’t there a statute of limitation on these things? If not, there ought to be!

#12 by nazarhayatkhan

[I like Advani. Advani comes out as a sound politician. Every word is well calculated. Not a single superflouos word. But he can still convey his mind.]
Khan saheb, we are not discussing a literary event here!

[He is also in a great health for his 78 years. Loud and clear voice. A very alert mind. And probably original teeth.]
Nor a medical one, either!

#13 by avenger123
[Hindu voters need to be consolidated - regardless of caste differences. This can be done by raising the muslim bogey....demonising muslims instead of wooing them.]
How about consolidating INDIAN votes? Won’t that be larger base and make the country stronger.

anyone who talks about demonizing INDIAN voters, no matter what their caste or creed is, is not speaking in india`s best interests.

raising the muslim bogey and demonizing them sounds more like a chapter from goebbels, or propagandists of late such as those in pre-genocide rwanda and i hate making such comparisons but it`s the truth. if every hindu sounded like the poster who`s made this statement, then more`s the pity for an ``advancing`` india.

thankfully there are more aware indians of all creeds both in india and the diaspora.

Ana , the state where the `muslim bogey` was raised , all hindus of all castes got united and beat the crap out of the Mian Musharafs , is also the one with the best roads , best administration , higest economic and industrial growth rate , lowest poverty levels. I am talking about Gujarat. Gujarat has more in common with Shanghai as far as economic performace and standards of living are concerned than with any part of India. If rasing the `muslim bogey` gets me a administration that stands for hardcore capitalism and economic liberalisation , I am all for it.

Ideally , one would like a `Secular-Right` administration. An administration that promotes capitalism and secularism. But realities are that in India today the political parties ones that stand for secularism also stand for self-defeating retrogressive socialism and worse.

Basically , its nothing personal. Whatever one needs to win , one must do. If demonising muslims can get one into power , one should go ahead and do it with all due enthusiasm.

(But care should be taken to let the Christian Missionaries have their fun...any serious opposition to the BJP/RSS from the Big Daddy US of A is because of the RSS/BJP`s antipathy to missionary activity , not because of anti-muslim pogroms. Basically as long as one keeps the Church and thereby the red state senators happy , one can go on killing and raping as many muslims as one wants to...and the US will be fine and dandy about it...)

#42 Ana

Don’t get me wrong! Relax, I agree with you.

I was only asking Avenger123 to reverse his approach! Consolidate people (bring them together) instead of dividing them along groups, etc.! (To me INDIAN means Indians of all hues, religions, languages, sexes, etc.) That’s all! However, I do understand your sensitivity on this issue! (No quarrel from me on THAT.)

HP...

Indeed if what Alephnull says is true then Advani is an extremely stupid politician... because not only has he failed to make an impression on us Pakistanis (as pointed out earlier Jinnah`s own Dawn didn`t even carry the news and Daily Times put a mere blurb) but he has managed to isolate the Indian voter (who according to Avenger is anti-Muslim, bigoted and fanatical) who are up in arms because every Indian newspaper has carried the story and Sangh Parivar`s reaction on frontpage. So much for him being a normal ``democratic`` politician.


I am going to reserve my further comments on the cause of the fire in Mr Null`s chaddiz.

beejay,

i didn`t get you wrong at all. . . which is why i said what i did. i agreed with you. but avenger has given his justifications for not reversing his approach, and as retrograde as i find them, i will let someone else tackle those justifications. a linguistics final tomorrow calls me away from this discussion. :)

but before i leave. . .

i can see that this board is going to turn into a field for setting each and everyone`s chaDDies on fire, and if that is the case, then i see no reason particularly to have a ``reasonable`` discussion here, where we can discuss issues rather than light fires up people`s asses.

obviously and for good reason (for many) the names of gandhi, jinnah, and the names of vajpayee, modi, advani cause many to lose their reason. and intelligent men (i don`t see too many women here) already have.

so i withdraw. . . to more reasonable discussions. as it is not possible to reason with those who don`t wish to see it. i think one could have talked about this article, without all the demonizations and the insults.

echoboom #39

That is quite a digression from Advani’s visit to Pakistan. Nevertheless …

I figured out ages ago that the system in Pakistan is a long-running scam by a kleptocratic elite to fleece the awam – to corner the productive resources of a country plus any foreign assistance it might get, for exploitation by a small minority with a massive sense of entitlement – whatever the official form the government takes, whether overt dictatorship or military-dominated ‘democracy.’

This scam needs props, both internal and external, to keep it going. Internally, ‘Islam khatre mein hain’, hatred and fear of India, Kashmir issue, are some of the devices used to keep the awam in line. Meanwhile, on the external front, the prospect (specifically engineered by the regime) of takeover by hardcore Islamists – people you sympathize with - is used to extort money from the United States and western support for the ‘enlightened secular moderate’ regime of the day. The Americans of course don’t care who rules in Islamabad or what happens to Pakistanis as long as the rulers do the US’s bidding and there’s no blowback that hits the US homeland or global US interests.

I do not think the maulanas, as a class, are clean either. If the reported exploits of Dieselur Rahman and Sandwich-ul-Haq are any indication, they too have their price - they make sure that they get their cut. Like the rest, they probably prefer the pleasures of this world to the promised delights of the next. The US would happily cut deals with them if it became necessary.

You are perhaps too hung up on issues of izzat, ghairat, etc. ‘Honour’ is often a pretty tangled notion. A foolish obsession with ‘honour and dignity’ could lend itself to exploitation. I might as well tell you that the superficial preoccupation of Pakistan’s rulers and chatterati with ‘H & D’ is a running joke among Indians. Your real problem isn’t that Pakistan’s rulers will pawn themselves or their grandmothers, but that they’ll sell off the future prospects of the entire population of Pakistan to keep their tottering system going. They really don’t seem to care one bit what happens to the awam. They make even India’s scoundrels of politicans look good by comparison.

Repeating the same old bogus view that Null has been parrotting for the last 5 years. India clearly isn`t much different... and most Indians find Pakistan cleaner richer healthier less and less poverty stricken...

Your view doesnot explain a number of things... for example why is it that a middle class person like myself, whose paternal grandfather was a motor mechanic... and great grandfather was a station master in Lahore ... who comes from religious minority within a minority... has the resources to live a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis on chowk are from middle class background... and not part of the ``kleptocratic elite`` as you put it...

Pakistan has its problems but India has the very same ... whether those who live in fools` paradise wish to accept it or not.... then what has India been suffering from ? What elite is that ? That ``massive sense of entitlement`` you keep referring to is nothing but a verbose phrase ... that you have been using again and again to sound ``intellectual``. In reality you don`t have a clue.

So I suggest you either start putting up something concrete (instead of trying to impress upon us your ``intellectual prowess`` which beyond fancy words is zero) ... who is ``this kleptocratic elite`` ... who is it on Chowk? Is it Romair? Is it me? Is it Beena Sarwar? Is it Bina Shah? Are the chowk founders part of it ? And why is it that in real terms this ``kleptocratic elite`` is less visible in Pakistan`s national life? Was Musharraf part of this elite? Was Shaukat Aziz born into it? Who is it? The feudals? The Army? The westernised upper society of Lahore Karachi and Islamabad? Who?

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``and most Indians find Pakistan cleaner richer healthier less and less poverty stricken... ``

Thats what you say. Even so , if thats what they think , they would be wrong. For facts are that concentration of poverty (35% of the population) in Pakistan is far greater than that in India (23% of the population). Per capita income of Indians higher than than of Pakis. India ranks higher on human development indices. Significantly , per capita electricity consumption in India (570 kilowatt hours /year) is higher than that in Pakistan (300 odd kilo watt hours /year) too - which means power infrastructure is better in India.

Re: # 50

In essence India and Pakistan are both ruled by post colonial ``Kleptocratic`` elites... with a ``massive sense of entitlement``.

The difference: Pakistan`s dressed in military uniforms/business suits, India`s in dhotis.

Ironic... more more of Pakistani elite (which speaks fluent accentless angreji) speaks in the national language .... from what I understand, and what was confirmed by Mr Mani Shankar Aiyar (he apologised for speaking in English by saying that in Posh Neighborhoods of Delhi it is a crime to speak in Hindi) yesterday ... it is a matter of absolute insult for the accented dhoti wallah elite of India to speak in anything but English.

Re: # 51

Dear friend... I acknowledge your statistics... but I am telling you the common perception of the Indians.... so start convincing them.

They are the ones who get wide eyed by seeing our airports and our motorways and our service stations and our smartly dressed cops, both men and women, in Honda Civics and Land Cruisers....

I absolutely and totally accept your statistics....

echoboom...you are one of my favorites on chowk. But sadly chowk-staff in their infitinite wisdom have seen it fit to reduce your interact index to 0. So your posts are filtered out and not available for public view. I suggest getting a new ID and coming back as echoboom123.

Dear Cuckolded Fool ,

Facts are facts. Perceptions of a select few in a given situation which can be manipulated hardly reflect the reality. How come a country as wonderful as yours ranks 144 on the human development index ? How come your per capita is hardly 450$ ? How come only hardly 40% of your adult population can read/write ?

MantoLives wrote
``Your view doesnot explain a number of things... for example why is it that a middle class person like myself, whose paternal grandfather was a motor mechanic... and great grandfather was a station master in Lahore ... who comes from religious minority within a minority... has the resources to live a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis on chowk are from middle class background...``

i dont have any numbers, but this is utter hogwash mr. mantolives. The middleclass i know of in Pakistan particularly in Karachi and the one you are talking about are two different entities, i guess.

Re: # 55

Yes facts are facts. Now why are you behaving badly when I accepted above your statistics?

Re: # 56

Since when did you become an expert on all things Pakistani ?

My conscience is perfectly clear.... what I have said is the truth. Hogwash is when every Indian, with internet access and a biased bigoted mind, decides that he is an expert on Pakistan and Pakistani society.

Expert on Pakistan? i claim no expertise whatsoever... i was just talking from my first hand experience.

you did write complete BS dude, own it up or shut up.

Re: # 59

I maintain what I wrote what was the truth... whether you wish to accept it or not is entirely up to you. As for your first hand experience... doesn`t mean it is everyone`s first hand experience. I wrote of my personal experience.

I suggest you maintain civility because clearly you are not going to convince me of your views by this cyber violence.

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AlphaNull #48: Your remarks are correct and incorrect at the same time........

Every third world country has an elite, which controls it. Some control it illegally and some just benefit from their status of being in the top 5% of the country, without being illegal.

Pakistan`s eilte, as a whole, is probably not too different from India`s or any other country`s. Each has its own problems. Pakistan, on the whole, has statistically been the fastest growing area in South Asia, after independence. I don`t think there is any contest there. It had nothing in 1947, not even an educated urban class. Way behind India. And within a few decades, its standard of living was the highest in South Asia. It is only in 1999, after Pakistan`s disastrous economic decade of 90s, that India passed Pakistan on the HDI scale.

I think one can safely say that, considering where everyone started from (which in case of the Pakistani population was extreme illiteracy and poverty), the standard of living of the average person of geographic region of Pakistan, has risen the highest. Do keep in mind, that at the time of creation, many people thought Pakistan would not even survive...........Everyone thought India would survive...

All of this could not have happened, if there was nothing more to Pakistan than an useless elite.........

This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan. None of us is from the middle class, although many of us had parents and grandparents who were from the middle or lower middle class of Pakistan.........

Less than 1% of Pakistan has Internet access at home. Far less than 1% has foreign degrees. A tiny minority owns its own car. A tiny minority has air-conditioning at home. A tiny minority has an English newspaper subscription. All of us on Chowk have, most, if not all of the above. Hence all of us on Chowk, thus, are, thus, part of the .01 - .05% of Pakistan. We are 1 in 1000 to 1 in 200, of Pakistan. Hence we are not in the middle class by any means. We are in the rich of Pakistan (as are probably the Indians on this site also), whether we admit it or not..........Not the filthy rich of Pakistan, but the rich........

However, our parents and grandparents were not like that. My grandfather, on my father`s side, lived in a village. Some of my second and third cousins still live there. My father was born in a village, and grew up there till his teens. Only going out for schooling. Yet it was purely through Pakistan that he moved into the upper middle class. And now, I am, at least by income, in the upper class of Pakistan............

So you need to keep everything in perspective (unless of course your aim is to just denounce Pakistan, in which case perspective is not important). Pakistan has its entrenched powerful self-serving elite, which has always had heridatory rights over the poor, i.e. they were born into wealth, mostly through land ownership. But there is another group also, whose previous generations, actually worked hard, through the opportunities provided by Pakistan, to grow from lower-middle and middles class to upper class..........

Nawaz Sharif father used to work in a brick kiln (poor class). Nawaz Sharif became the PM of Pakistan (albeit it a corrupt and useless one). Musharraf`s father was a civil servant (middle to slightly upper middle class). Imran Khan`s father was a civil servant. Mahboob-ul-Haq`s father was a village teacher. Altaf Hussain was a simple pharmacist and student leader. Qazi Hussain was a geogrphy teacher. Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub Khan weren`t from rich families either (although their kids are, specifically Ayub`s). Many of Pakistan`s top business families started from very humble backgrounds as small shopowners........

When Pakistan was created, its only elite were the landowning families, and a small number of business families (most of whom migrated from India). Anyone else, today, that you see as the elite of rich of Pakistan, reached there from humble beginings, within Pakistan............

presenting yourself as a middleclass guy is a bit of a stretch IMO.. i know hardly any Middle Class guy who is gone to an American school for his undergrad.

i hope next time you dont have to write another post to qualify your previous statements.

Romair:
``All of this could not have happened, if there was nothing more to Pakistan than an useless elite......... ``

Exactly, Massacres of Bangalis, Balochis, killing fields setup in Afghanistan in early 90s, ocassional rape or two, collusion with Feudal Class throughout 90s to bring down or bring up elected governments (through ISI).. whatlese did you forget that CouldNOT have happened without this Elite. i am speechless.

Informative article. I think Advani is trying to outdo Manmohan Singh in being chummy with Pakistan. While in Pakistan, he has been at pains for everyone to forget his past, including the fanning of communal hatred in India (particularly with the destruction of babri masjid) and his (unsuccessful) efforts to bully Pakistan. The Pakistan government too has done the right thing in letting him into Pakistan and talking peace. Since both countries are better off if they live in peace.

Re: # 62

``This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan. None of us is from the middle class, although many of us had parents and grandparents who were from the middle or lower middle class of Pakistan......... ``


Ditto... this rise naturally takes out of the ``ruling elite`` category... upper middle class yes... not upper class.


``Less than 1% of Pakistan has Internet access at home. ``

This is old news. Now atleast 15-20 million users have internet access in some form or the other.

``Far less than 1% has foreign degrees.``

True

``A tiny minority owns its own car.``

Again... total number of vehicles in Lahore alone is in the vicinity of 1-2 million

``A tiny minority has air-conditioning at home.``

This might not be true any more.

``A tiny minority has an English newspaper subscription.``

True .... actually tiny tiny tiny minority ... you can`t even imagine how tiny.

Raw_Dust #64: Is your aim to learn about Pakistan, or to just denounce it. If it is the former, then I can answer your questions. If it is the later, then I can only feel sorry for you and sympathesise with you...........

The point in my comment was that, while there has been an entrenched elite in Pakistan, there is one in every third world country. I would assume there is one in India, as well, since it is also a third-world country. And that while such an elite does exist in Pakistan, there is more to Pakistan than that............and there is probably more to India than that also.............

Romair:
So you think an Elite that has gone scot free for its crimes such as Genocide is comparable to the elite in Anyother country? Yes or No. would do.

Re: # 63

I haven`t qualified my statement. Go read it again. My definition of middleclass was vis a vis `not ruling class` or `upward mobile` and was as such not related to ``financial stability``... you seem to viewing it selectively...

I know several lower middle class people from taat kay school who have made it abroad to study in US schools.... so your point is? And whatever it is ... I am not interested in it... I suggest you go back and read the original exchange....

Or explain to me how my Motormechanic Ahmadi grandfather was part of the rich uppercrust of pakistani society...

And for now good night.

I dont understand why financial status of grandfathers is relevant here....one solid money making generation is all it takes....my grandfather was a freakin bonded laborer....but his granson now gets pocket money probably closer to Manto`s journalist/school teacher salary...

Mantolives:
you just did qualify by saying it was from Personal Experience in your last post. now you are not so sure. Fine. goodnight whatever. The day middleclass guys go to colleges(not talking of gradschools) in American universities, i will change my position immediately. So, until then lets dream on!

#18 by Mantolives on June 5, 2005 8:04am PT


we hardly need your patronisation for our heroes.


Yup..you`re beyond redemption....Pakistan is destined to be an Islamic state...no mixed marathons, no ``free to worship..`` BS...and jinnah will forever remain an unknown(or world famous in Pakistan)....

Re: # 63 add going to AN ENGLISH PUBLIC SCHOOL in the heart of VERY UPPER CRUST ROYALIST ARISTO England ...cheltenham...and he claims he is a pleb!

But you have got hand it to mantolives - he is an ace at airbrushing his heritage and inheritance! He has learnt many a trick from his hero ZAB.

Re: # 25 prove your asserion that sulekha.com is an RSS site. I would be careful with such wild assertions. Sulekha.com is currently on the nemy list of the right and of the left...this means that it is doing the right if it has irritated both sides.

Now Hire Purchase dont just lose the argument (you are going great) with wild assertions. Your ignorance was shown to all with your not knowing what alephnull`s are.

I had a great brunch and now I see that A-hole is reduced to responding to a guy who is filtered out already. Actually that is what A-hole’s level is. Both echo and A-hole excel in self-righteous dudgeon and disingenuous horseshit. They are both Twiddledumb and Twiddlephony. What ails Twiddledumb aka A-hole is not whether Pakistan is ruled by the elite or not (because every country is ruled by the elite and the days of his commie masters are long gone and none of them was from the laborer class anyway) but how he can channel his “impotent” rage.

I don’t know who is upper class or middle class on this site neither do I care but I sure know that A-hole is from the gutter class.

#40
So now gujju is going to teach me about America...

Rw_Dust,
Why do you have to prove that Yassar is from what class? Any serious problem?
I know several middle class guys and some guys from poor families go to American schools. What does that prove Raw_dust?

Fascist faujis and other ass-kisser types must be pretty desperate to invite this genocidal maniac and hindu religious nut to our country. Alas! What has naPak fauj turned our country into.

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#75 by HP on June 5, 2005 2:22pm PT


I had a great brunch


Is that what you`re calling a sandwich between fares? Get back to work now...stop goofing off or the taxicab commission will pull your medallion...

I can really swear t God that I am unable to recall if I have ever met any person in my life who suffers of inferiority complex to that extent than our Field Marshal in house Romair.

He never gets tired to prove with every conceivable statistical trick, every imaginable extrapolation and interpolation, every possible interpretation that being on chowk makes him and all other visitors some sort of elite.

Most probably he belongs to some chora family and is desperate to prove it otherwise.

Bragging about owning mobile to car to microwave oven to (English) newspaper subscription to having frequent flyer card to American Express to boasting about no of toilets in his room … nothing is substandard or personal for this crap to prove that he is no more a chora.

Yaar, 1001 times have we read about your social and financial promotion … please for God’s sake maaf kar do. Go seek some therapist … for your own good.

#77 by echoboom on June 5, 2005 2:26pm PT

It must suck to be a jihadi filled with impotent rage...


#76 by Urstruly on June 5, 2005 2:25pm PT


It must suck even more to be a jihadi filled with impotent rage knowing that your tax money is paying for whatever you`ve got your islamist undies in a knot over....

#78 by arjun_m

That is from a guy who did his time in Bomaby transporting beer bar dancers in a rickshaw and now drives a pimpmobile for living...

#74 by blanks..
``your not knowing what alephnull`s are. ``
Blank,
Still not sure of what I think of A-hole? So you know where A-hole`s nuts are Good for you... have a good relationship...

Now advani is clearly wrong on this...ask a majority of pakis on chowk(heck, ask capt clueless) and they`ll tell you pakiland was destined to be an Islamic country....

`Jinnah favoured secular Pakistan`

KARACHI: In what is expected to have severe political repercussions within his own saffron clan, BJP chief LK Advani on Saturday attributed secular credentials to Mohammad Ali Jinnah, while paying ``respectful homage`` to the man who has been bashed by the Sangh Parivar for the last 55 years for propagating the two-nation theory and creating Pakistan.

http://sify.com/news/politics/fullstory.php?id=13833025

Vadodra: Terming BJP President LK Advani a ``traitor`` for ``glorifying`` Pakistan`s founder leader Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the international general secretary of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) Pravin Togadia on Sunday asked the BJP leader to give up his Lok Sabha seat.

Togadia, who was in Padra town for a Durgavahini function, said Jinnah had demanded the creation of Pakistan on the basis of religion and his Muslim League party had adopted a resolution to this effect in Lahore in 1940. Jinnah had presided over the meeting, he added.

``How can Advani describe Jinnah as an Ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity,`` he asked questioning Advani`s visit to the Pakistani leader`s mausoleum.

One million Hindus were killed in Pakistan in 1946 during partition, Togadia said.

``Jinnah was a traitor, is a traitor and will remain a traitor and person glorifying him is also a traitor``, said Togadia, demanding that Advani also resign as Leader of Opposition from Lok Sabha.``

Why is RSS/VHP so upset....

Romair #62

{{This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan.}}

Romair – Chowkies are a self-selected sample. It’s plausible that Pakistanis with regular Chowk access, self-funded undergraduate degrees from US universities, etc. will typically be from prosperous backgrounds today. Many of them may well come from families that saw rapid upward mobility post-1947 – being in the right place at the right time, etc. It doesn’t follow that they are representative of more than a small well-connected fraction of the Pakistani population. But you probably don’t disagree with this.

{{Every third world country has an elite, which controls it.}}

The question is whether and to what extent that elite perpetuates itself – corners disproportionate resources – denies huge groups of people any voice while claiming to speak on their behalf and safeguard their interests.

You will probably admit that there is an identifiable group in Pakistan that does just that – namely your favourite bugbear, the feudals. You are just reluctant to concede that there are other unrepresentative groups who are doing the same thing at a national level, with just as evil consequences for the people of Pakistan.

In India, for all its mess, dysfunction and corruption, awareness of rights and modest prosperity has spread quite wide and deep. There are a large number of groups who have gained an effective political voice, who make demands of the system and extract concessions, jobs and subsidies (often at the expense of fiscal viability – free power and water to farmers, etc). Their leaders and mouthpieces are often not that ‘presentable’ by Anglicized notions of presentability – which apparently amuses some well-connected Pakistanis no end. Access to power in India – to milk the system and even rob it blind - is just not the preserve of ‘polished’ ‘sophisticated’ ‘unaccented-English speaking’ urbanites (feudal-backgrounded or otherwise). For good and bad, that is a fruit of five decades of democracy.

I have disagreements over various other remarks of yours but they’ll simply lengthen this response without covering any new ground – so I’ll pass for now.

re: this article
There is a saying in hindi/urdu: ``Sau Choohey khaakey billi Haj ko chalee``.
Advani, after spending a lifetime being a hawk and ``muslim hater`` is now finding a new vocation: being pro-Pak and a peaceneck!
All i feel like saying is: damn these politicians. They have no morals.
It is not whether he is right or wrong but the guy has no ``beliefs`` and changes like a chamelion. Even Gopal Godse (who believes to this day that his brother Nathurram Godse was right in assasinating Gandhi) has some belief system and sticks to it, however abhorrent that belief system is to rest of us. But the likes of Advani have none.

Advani is changing because the realpolitick in India is making him change his stance. He aspires to follow in the shadows of ABV but BJP has figured out (from last General Election) that they just can`t win a majority without support from muslims. This change at the very top is essential. Remember, BJP have not ousted Modi for his genocide in Gujarat. In the past, ABV and Advani played the ``good cop bad cop routine`` to perfection. Now, the ``bad cop`` role will be in the hands of the lower rung of BJP cadres, people like Modi, Uma Bharathi. They will try and entice the lower caste votes and may still use anti-muslim rhetorics. But the top BJP cadre is trying to present a good face to the world. Advani as a hawk may not be acceptable to US as head of state (if he ever becomes one), so he has to change his image. It is after all only an image. Few would be privy to Advani`s real intentions.
This brings me to the point i want to make. People`s democracy, when allowed to function, does have a great impact on the way politicians think and behave. People, in a real democracy, dictate policies and politicians follow such policies. Advani`s political somersault is a triumph of Indian democracy.
That is why Mantolive is so wrong when he says: (In essence India and Pakistan are both ruled by post colonial ``Kleptocratic`` elites... with a ``massive sense of entitlement``).
Pak has always been ruled by elites but not India. Lalloo Yadav, Advani, ABV are not elites. They have to go again and again to the masses for enlisting support. Mantolive needs to understand how democracy works before shooting off his mouth. I see Advani`s reconciliation to the present realpolitick in India (which seems to reject any form of fundamentalism at least at the highest level) as a triumph of democratic forces in India.
Sridhar

AlephNull #84: My intention is not to prove that Pakistan is better than India. For those comparisons, I tend to rely on statistics, from research. The best one that I know of is the HDI by the UN. Based on this, uptil 1999, Pakistan was ahead of India, and now India is ahead.........On the whole, both have generally swam in the same waters........If you can provide certain different statistics, I would be happy to consider them...........

``Chowkies are a self-selected sample``

Yes, this is true. Which has always been my point........

``The question is whether and to what extent that elite perpetuates itself – corners disproportionate resources –``

There is a value called the Ginni Coefficient. The higher the value, the poorer the distribution of wealth. Please check the values for India, Pakistan and other third world countries, to get an answer. After that, please let me know, what you discovered........

Statistically speaking, from 1947, the average Pakistani has had the size of his/her economic pie expand more than anyone in South Asia. These are statistical facts. So the elite grew, but so did the living standard of other Pakistanis. From starting as the boondocks of the Sub-Continent, by 1990, Pakistan had poverty down to 18%..... It is the disastrous 90s that brought Pakistan`s poverty levels to new highs - 33% by 2000.........It is now starting to reduce again, however...........

So, on the whole, Pakistan is no different in creation and distribution of economic resources that other South Asian countries, on average. Better than most, over a 50 year average. It is behind in distribution of political empowerment........The tragedy of Pakistan is that despite having the highest economic growth rates in South Asia, it hasn`t been able to do more. There was a time in the 60s when Pakistan was on a higher trajectory of progress than Turkey, Malaysia etc.

``I have disagreements over various other remarks ``

Kindly provide credible statistics to back up your stances.......that way it disassociates it from personal opinions.............

The discussion about a visit aimed at promoting peace between the two countries degenerates into the same old fights!

The scene: the modest mishra residence in south kolkota in 2002. I am visiting only for a few days, the remainder of my family is unable to join me from the US. Several family members kindly come by to chat and visit with me. A young man in his 20s who is my cousin visits with his friend (a colleague from work). My cousin has completed a certificate in management and is enthusiastic about changes in Kolkota.

At some point we discuss Babri Masjid and history of islam in south asia. My cousin has a long list of complaints: jaziya, aurangzeb, destruction of hindu temples etc. etc.

I agree with him. Just like with hindu traditions, there are many aspects of islam that are unfortunate. One of the most unfortunate is islamosuperemacy. It has been easy for islamic rulers to claim islamic justification for whatever nonsense they want to perpretrate against many ``others``.

Then i ask him: you have completed a certificate in management. You understand management by objectives. What should india`s objectives be? Should they be compensation for every slight from the islamic period or should it be building the world`s most powerful economy? Should we build the world`s largest ram mandir or the world`s largesy economy??

He is thoughtful. His colleague is more blunt. We should a powerful economy. There has been injustice in the past but this is our chance to really change something.

I say nothing. We finish our cha, the sandesh and singharas from the local mishti-dokan are excellent. I wish them good luck and good bye.

re: Romair # 86

In the early years Pakistan did grow faster than India did.

However, today`s Pakistan is different from what Pakistan was until 1960s. Between 1980s and 9//11, Pakistan`s challenges consistently ex