Advani in Karachi

Re: # 142

No... I don`t praise Jinnah for that... yes Jinnah resorted to the same tactics that Gandhi had perfected earlier... and I don`t like Jinnah for that.

I like him because of his role as a legislator (he is responsible for the legislation against child marriages for example and several other progressive pieces of legislation in United India) , barrister, as a secular Indian nationalist and for his vision for Pakistan which he repeatedly enunciated in the last year for his life.. I admire the Jinnah who stood for universal literacy, for equality and justice for all, the Jinnah who stood for Bhagat Singh...

And another thing... my frequent outbursts aside... I don`t hate Gandhi but I get irked by the saintly personna Indians and others give him... which is a myth. However my aim is not to replace the angelic Gandhian myth with a devilish one which will also be a myth.

Yasser you criticise Gandhi where as praise Jinah for essentially committing the same mistake, am I missing the logic here?

hindivi:
Your point about the difference between Tilak and Sir Syed is well taken. But both did espouse communal identities.

Yasser Bhai, thank you for taking over Beena Didi`s artkul. You deserve the award again of Sitar-e-Anarkali, Bulbul-al-Gulburger and not to forget Scottish Grey Hound Racer-of-Lahore Railway which are herewith presented to you.

Tell me, did you also take Honourable Many Many Shaker and Mover Aiyar ji to the most famous Dunking DoDo(till not expired due to going dead as)-nuts or the even more famous Kentucky Fry (and barbecue til stocks last) Chikun?

Also is there any connection between Advani ji lunch at Zardari Mansion and subsequent Zardari Heart Attack?

And finally is there any chance of providing Lal Ji with a birth certificate dated, say, 1948?

Jai Siyapati Ram Chandra ki!! May the return to Manora and Lahore be as happy as the visits to Ajmer.

Re: # 147

I have my own views on Gandhi ... but I won`t take the bait. I accept that he was able to sway the masses and was a very good marketer. I personally don`t see his democratic credentials as sterling... but that is a separate issue.

Those are admirable qualities of Jinnah that you list. But if you leave the saintly halo aside there is much to be admired in Gandhi atleast as an individual and politician. He is by far the best innovator of mass politics in the 20th century. he understood the mechanics of democracy and the psyche of the Indian masses far better than any one else. he had an extra ordinary intensity and self discipline. he was consummate in the skill of confrontation while avoiding violence. he could move an audience just by his silence and he was an avowed democrat. did he have short comings sure he did, but than didnt Jinnah too. But as a politician and as a student of democratic mass politics Jinnah didnt have a patch on Gandhi.

Re: # 149

Yes... the great Mujahid had quite the taste for pork sausages as well...

No as Muslims its our pious duty to emulate the greatest mujahid ever and EAT PORK SAUSAGES.

After all he was ``follower of the Sharia in letter and spirit in his own life, applying Islamic priciples and laws in his daily discourse``. Thank you Maulana Echoboom for finally allowing Pork sausages, scotch whiskey and Chablis in the realm of Islam.

Quaid-e-Azam Zindabad
Islam Paindabad!

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Facts speak for themselves, Gandhi was able to keep far more of his constituency together and with him at the end of the negotiations than Jinnah was. So atleast as far as politics goes Gandhi proved more succesful.

Two great ideas:

1. God created man so the latter may study His Creation. And Einstein is iconic figure for this idea.

And this idea led man from the caves to the moon and the planets in the 20th century, and will no doubt lead him to the stars and other dimensions in future.

2. In studying Creation, man has developed the technology to destroy himself. And so there is no solution other than peace. And Gandhi is the iconic figure for this idea.

And this idea is essential if man is to fulfill his destiny per 1. above.

Re: # 153

This was addressed to Hindvi.

Please elaborate... How, when and where... In any event, as I mentioned earlier my criterion for admiration for Jinnah is not based on success alone... infact it is based on the points enumerated enough.

If we are going to claim point blank that facts speak for themselves... Gandhi`s inability to stop Jinnah from making Pakistan ... or as Louis Fischer puts it in that acclaimed Gandhian biography ``History intervened to upset Jinnah`s plans and then able Jinnah upset history``.

Ofcourse I reject these over-romanticized darthvader vs Yoda view of history.

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Re: # 156 hindvi
//....but his brinkmanship and bluffing was played once too often and without any hedge/cover so once the bluff was called instead of adapting to the rules he threw the cards in the air and walked off. Only in this case the cards were humans lives...//

Truer words have never been spoken.

Re: # 156

``How: Well as you can see there are only 14 crore people in pakistan where as there are 40 crore muslims in the subcontinent. ``

15 Crores in Pakistan approximately 14 Crores in Bangladesh (Former East Pakistan) ... that comes down to 29 crores out of which approximately 27 crores are Muslims. According to Mani Shankar Aiyar the official number in India is 11.5 crores of Muslims. Now please don`t give me that Indira Gandhi nonsense.. because in 1971 Indira undid Nehru`s work... I can provide you evidence that Jinnah had endorsed Suhrawardy`s suggestion of a separate Bangladesh and Lahore Resolution clearly opens the door for more than 1 state. So in 1947... some 73 million out of 100 million were in East and West Pakistan.


``Gandhi`s constituency is overwhelmingly in India.``

He claimed his constituency was a ``A United India``... That did not come to be did it now using your logic ofcourse. Furthermore in those moments of desperation Gandhi even endorsed the demand for Pathanistan to further Balkanise India... thank God for Nehru who had enough sense not to back that crazy Pathan from NWFP.

``And remember it was Jinnah himself who repeatedly and publicly insisted that he was the sole spokesman and the muslim league the sole representative of the indian muslims, to the extent that he refused to take part in the government if the congress nominated maulana azad or any other muslim congressman. ``

It was a necessary ploy for him to bargain for an equipoise in the centre. He commanded the confidence of the majority .. he knew he didn`t represent every muslim but a majority of the muslim vote.


``So if jinnah was the consumate negotiator and politician you assume him to be why did he get outnegotiated?``

He was not outnegotiated... but it was the Congress that refused to call his bluff. If anything he was outnegotiated by the tiger he was riding ... not Gandhi or Nehru or Azad.


``Jinnah had a reasonable hand and he managed to stay in the game for a while, but his brinkmanship and bluffing was played once too often and without any hedge/cover so once the bluff was called instead of adapting to the rules he threw the cards in the air and walked off. Only in this case the cards were humans lives.``

A review is required to ascertain who threw the cards and walked off. Even in May 1947 the Cabinet Mission plan was back on the table... but the Congress had made up its mind not to deal with Jinnah and the Muslim League. The question you should be asking is whether Jinnah would have wanted a Pakistan to begin with...

Where: India, When: August 15, 1947 and How: Well as you can see there are only 14 crore people in pakistan where as there are 40 crore muslims in the subcontinent. Gandhi`s constituency is overwhelmingly in India. And remember it was Jinnah himself who repeatedly and publicly insisted that he was the sole spokesman and the muslim league the sole representative of the indian muslims, to the extent that he refused to take part in the government if the congress nominated maulana azad or any other muslim congressman.

So if jinnah was the consumate negotiator and politician you assume him to be why did he get outnegotiated? or was he not really committed towards his constituency which is even worse because it shows his character in very poor light.

I agree that in this nature had dealt Gandhi a stronger hand, for it was hindus who were in a majority, but nonetheless one would expect an astute politician to atleast avoid damaging and then loosing his own constituency. They say in cards as in Life a good player wins even with a weak hand, where as a poor player will loose even with a good one.

Jinnah had a reasonable hand and he managed to stay in the game for a while, but his brinkmanship and bluffing was played once too often and without any hedge/cover so once the bluff was called instead of adapting to the rules he threw the cards in the air and walked off. Only in this case the cards were humans lives.