Advani in Karachi

but before i leave. . .

i can see that this board is going to turn into a field for setting each and everyone`s chaDDies on fire, and if that is the case, then i see no reason particularly to have a ``reasonable`` discussion here, where we can discuss issues rather than light fires up people`s asses.

obviously and for good reason (for many) the names of gandhi, jinnah, and the names of vajpayee, modi, advani cause many to lose their reason. and intelligent men (i don`t see too many women here) already have.

so i withdraw. . . to more reasonable discussions. as it is not possible to reason with those who don`t wish to see it. i think one could have talked about this article, without all the demonizations and the insults.

echoboom #39

That is quite a digression from Advani’s visit to Pakistan. Nevertheless …

I figured out ages ago that the system in Pakistan is a long-running scam by a kleptocratic elite to fleece the awam – to corner the productive resources of a country plus any foreign assistance it might get, for exploitation by a small minority with a massive sense of entitlement – whatever the official form the government takes, whether overt dictatorship or military-dominated ‘democracy.’

This scam needs props, both internal and external, to keep it going. Internally, ‘Islam khatre mein hain’, hatred and fear of India, Kashmir issue, are some of the devices used to keep the awam in line. Meanwhile, on the external front, the prospect (specifically engineered by the regime) of takeover by hardcore Islamists – people you sympathize with - is used to extort money from the United States and western support for the ‘enlightened secular moderate’ regime of the day. The Americans of course don’t care who rules in Islamabad or what happens to Pakistanis as long as the rulers do the US’s bidding and there’s no blowback that hits the US homeland or global US interests.

I do not think the maulanas, as a class, are clean either. If the reported exploits of Dieselur Rahman and Sandwich-ul-Haq are any indication, they too have their price - they make sure that they get their cut. Like the rest, they probably prefer the pleasures of this world to the promised delights of the next. The US would happily cut deals with them if it became necessary.

You are perhaps too hung up on issues of izzat, ghairat, etc. ‘Honour’ is often a pretty tangled notion. A foolish obsession with ‘honour and dignity’ could lend itself to exploitation. I might as well tell you that the superficial preoccupation of Pakistan’s rulers and chatterati with ‘H & D’ is a running joke among Indians. Your real problem isn’t that Pakistan’s rulers will pawn themselves or their grandmothers, but that they’ll sell off the future prospects of the entire population of Pakistan to keep their tottering system going. They really don’t seem to care one bit what happens to the awam. They make even India’s scoundrels of politicans look good by comparison.

Repeating the same old bogus view that Null has been parrotting for the last 5 years. India clearly isn`t much different... and most Indians find Pakistan cleaner richer healthier less and less poverty stricken...

Your view doesnot explain a number of things... for example why is it that a middle class person like myself, whose paternal grandfather was a motor mechanic... and great grandfather was a station master in Lahore ... who comes from religious minority within a minority... has the resources to live a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis on chowk are from middle class background... and not part of the ``kleptocratic elite`` as you put it...

Pakistan has its problems but India has the very same ... whether those who live in fools` paradise wish to accept it or not.... then what has India been suffering from ? What elite is that ? That ``massive sense of entitlement`` you keep referring to is nothing but a verbose phrase ... that you have been using again and again to sound ``intellectual``. In reality you don`t have a clue.

So I suggest you either start putting up something concrete (instead of trying to impress upon us your ``intellectual prowess`` which beyond fancy words is zero) ... who is ``this kleptocratic elite`` ... who is it on Chowk? Is it Romair? Is it me? Is it Beena Sarwar? Is it Bina Shah? Are the chowk founders part of it ? And why is it that in real terms this ``kleptocratic elite`` is less visible in Pakistan`s national life? Was Musharraf part of this elite? Was Shaukat Aziz born into it? Who is it? The feudals? The Army? The westernised upper society of Lahore Karachi and Islamabad? Who?

Re: # 52

``Ironic... more more of Pakistani elite (which speaks fluent accentless angreji) speaks in the national language .... from what I understand, and what was confirmed by Mr Mani Shankar Aiyar (he apologised for speaking in English by saying that in Posh Neighborhoods of Delhi it is a crime to speak in Hindi) yesterday ... it is a matter of absolute insult for the accented dhoti wallah elite of India to speak in anything but English.

I think you got it wrong.. Not everyone knows Hindi. People from the southern states, especially from TN where Manishankar aiyar got elected don`t know Hindi (Only 0.87% know Hindi in TN).. and people from other southern states and the North east are not that comfortable in Hindi either.. So he might have made a remark like that.. Because I suspect people who live in posh neighborhoods (who have a better chance of knowing English than Hindi) are trying to be more courteous to their neighbors who might not know Hindi..

It`s hard for people who don`t know what religious/linguistic diversity really means to understand such nuances.. I won`t blame you.. BTW, Should not a state formed based on a religion should have its national language the language of the holy scriptures??.. (like Hebrew for Israel.. I`m assuming jewish scriptures are in hebrew.) Arabic should have been the national language for Pakistan.. after all, all pakistanis are ``arab`` descendants.. LOL..

Re: # 50

In essence India and Pakistan are both ruled by post colonial ``Kleptocratic`` elites... with a ``massive sense of entitlement``.

The difference: Pakistan`s dressed in military uniforms/business suits, India`s in dhotis.

Ironic... more more of Pakistani elite (which speaks fluent accentless angreji) speaks in the national language .... from what I understand, and what was confirmed by Mr Mani Shankar Aiyar (he apologised for speaking in English by saying that in Posh Neighborhoods of Delhi it is a crime to speak in Hindi) yesterday ... it is a matter of absolute insult for the accented dhoti wallah elite of India to speak in anything but English.

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Re: # 51

Dear friend... I acknowledge your statistics... but I am telling you the common perception of the Indians.... so start convincing them.

They are the ones who get wide eyed by seeing our airports and our motorways and our service stations and our smartly dressed cops, both men and women, in Honda Civics and Land Cruisers....

I absolutely and totally accept your statistics....

``and most Indians find Pakistan cleaner richer healthier less and less poverty stricken... ``

Thats what you say. Even so , if thats what they think , they would be wrong. For facts are that concentration of poverty (35% of the population) in Pakistan is far greater than that in India (23% of the population). Per capita income of Indians higher than than of Pakis. India ranks higher on human development indices. Significantly , per capita electricity consumption in India (570 kilowatt hours /year) is higher than that in Pakistan (300 odd kilo watt hours /year) too - which means power infrastructure is better in India.

echoboom...you are one of my favorites on chowk. But sadly chowk-staff in their infitinite wisdom have seen it fit to reduce your interact index to 0. So your posts are filtered out and not available for public view. I suggest getting a new ID and coming back as echoboom123.

Re: # 55

Yes facts are facts. Now why are you behaving badly when I accepted above your statistics?

Dear Cuckolded Fool ,

Facts are facts. Perceptions of a select few in a given situation which can be manipulated hardly reflect the reality. How come a country as wonderful as yours ranks 144 on the human development index ? How come your per capita is hardly 450$ ? How come only hardly 40% of your adult population can read/write ?

Re: # 56

Since when did you become an expert on all things Pakistani ?

My conscience is perfectly clear.... what I have said is the truth. Hogwash is when every Indian, with internet access and a biased bigoted mind, decides that he is an expert on Pakistan and Pakistani society.

MantoLives wrote
``Your view doesnot explain a number of things... for example why is it that a middle class person like myself, whose paternal grandfather was a motor mechanic... and great grandfather was a station master in Lahore ... who comes from religious minority within a minority... has the resources to live a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Most Pakistanis on chowk are from middle class background...``

i dont have any numbers, but this is utter hogwash mr. mantolives. The middleclass i know of in Pakistan particularly in Karachi and the one you are talking about are two different entities, i guess.

Re: # 59

I maintain what I wrote what was the truth... whether you wish to accept it or not is entirely up to you. As for your first hand experience... doesn`t mean it is everyone`s first hand experience. I wrote of my personal experience.

I suggest you maintain civility because clearly you are not going to convince me of your views by this cyber violence.

Expert on Pakistan? i claim no expertise whatsoever... i was just talking from my first hand experience.

you did write complete BS dude, own it up or shut up.

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