Advani in Karachi

Re: # 62

``This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan. None of us is from the middle class, although many of us had parents and grandparents who were from the middle or lower middle class of Pakistan......... ``


Ditto... this rise naturally takes out of the ``ruling elite`` category... upper middle class yes... not upper class.


``Less than 1% of Pakistan has Internet access at home. ``

This is old news. Now atleast 15-20 million users have internet access in some form or the other.

``Far less than 1% has foreign degrees.``

True

``A tiny minority owns its own car.``

Again... total number of vehicles in Lahore alone is in the vicinity of 1-2 million

``A tiny minority has air-conditioning at home.``

This might not be true any more.

``A tiny minority has an English newspaper subscription.``

True .... actually tiny tiny tiny minority ... you can`t even imagine how tiny.

AlphaNull #48: Your remarks are correct and incorrect at the same time........

Every third world country has an elite, which controls it. Some control it illegally and some just benefit from their status of being in the top 5% of the country, without being illegal.

Pakistan`s eilte, as a whole, is probably not too different from India`s or any other country`s. Each has its own problems. Pakistan, on the whole, has statistically been the fastest growing area in South Asia, after independence. I don`t think there is any contest there. It had nothing in 1947, not even an educated urban class. Way behind India. And within a few decades, its standard of living was the highest in South Asia. It is only in 1999, after Pakistan`s disastrous economic decade of 90s, that India passed Pakistan on the HDI scale.

I think one can safely say that, considering where everyone started from (which in case of the Pakistani population was extreme illiteracy and poverty), the standard of living of the average person of geographic region of Pakistan, has risen the highest. Do keep in mind, that at the time of creation, many people thought Pakistan would not even survive...........Everyone thought India would survive...

All of this could not have happened, if there was nothing more to Pakistan than an useless elite.........

This brings us to everyone on Chowk. Many, if not most, of us Pakistanis on Chowk, are a product of this rise of Pakistan. Very few of us were born into the elite families (other than the ones who are kids of landowners, or powerful political nexuses). Yet now, statistically speaking, we are all in the upper-middle or upper class of Pakistan. None of us is from the middle class, although many of us had parents and grandparents who were from the middle or lower middle class of Pakistan.........

Less than 1% of Pakistan has Internet access at home. Far less than 1% has foreign degrees. A tiny minority owns its own car. A tiny minority has air-conditioning at home. A tiny minority has an English newspaper subscription. All of us on Chowk have, most, if not all of the above. Hence all of us on Chowk, thus, are, thus, part of the .01 - .05% of Pakistan. We are 1 in 1000 to 1 in 200, of Pakistan. Hence we are not in the middle class by any means. We are in the rich of Pakistan (as are probably the Indians on this site also), whether we admit it or not..........Not the filthy rich of Pakistan, but the rich........

However, our parents and grandparents were not like that. My grandfather, on my father`s side, lived in a village. Some of my second and third cousins still live there. My father was born in a village, and grew up there till his teens. Only going out for schooling. Yet it was purely through Pakistan that he moved into the upper middle class. And now, I am, at least by income, in the upper class of Pakistan............

So you need to keep everything in perspective (unless of course your aim is to just denounce Pakistan, in which case perspective is not important). Pakistan has its entrenched powerful self-serving elite, which has always had heridatory rights over the poor, i.e. they were born into wealth, mostly through land ownership. But there is another group also, whose previous generations, actually worked hard, through the opportunities provided by Pakistan, to grow from lower-middle and middles class to upper class..........

Nawaz Sharif father used to work in a brick kiln (poor class). Nawaz Sharif became the PM of Pakistan (albeit it a corrupt and useless one). Musharraf`s father was a civil servant (middle to slightly upper middle class). Imran Khan`s father was a civil servant. Mahboob-ul-Haq`s father was a village teacher. Altaf Hussain was a simple pharmacist and student leader. Qazi Hussain was a geogrphy teacher. Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub Khan weren`t from rich families either (although their kids are, specifically Ayub`s). Many of Pakistan`s top business families started from very humble backgrounds as small shopowners........

When Pakistan was created, its only elite were the landowning families, and a small number of business families (most of whom migrated from India). Anyone else, today, that you see as the elite of rich of Pakistan, reached there from humble beginings, within Pakistan............

Re: # 63

I haven`t qualified my statement. Go read it again. My definition of middleclass was vis a vis `not ruling class` or `upward mobile` and was as such not related to ``financial stability``... you seem to viewing it selectively...

I know several lower middle class people from taat kay school who have made it abroad to study in US schools.... so your point is? And whatever it is ... I am not interested in it... I suggest you go back and read the original exchange....

Or explain to me how my Motormechanic Ahmadi grandfather was part of the rich uppercrust of pakistani society...

And for now good night.

Re: # 63 add going to AN ENGLISH PUBLIC SCHOOL in the heart of VERY UPPER CRUST ROYALIST ARISTO England ...cheltenham...and he claims he is a pleb!

But you have got hand it to mantolives - he is an ace at airbrushing his heritage and inheritance! He has learnt many a trick from his hero ZAB.

presenting yourself as a middleclass guy is a bit of a stretch IMO.. i know hardly any Middle Class guy who is gone to an American school for his undergrad.

i hope next time you dont have to write another post to qualify your previous statements.

Romair:
``All of this could not have happened, if there was nothing more to Pakistan than an useless elite......... ``

Exactly, Massacres of Bangalis, Balochis, killing fields setup in Afghanistan in early 90s, ocassional rape or two, collusion with Feudal Class throughout 90s to bring down or bring up elected governments (through ISI).. whatlese did you forget that CouldNOT have happened without this Elite. i am speechless.

Informative article. I think Advani is trying to outdo Manmohan Singh in being chummy with Pakistan. While in Pakistan, he has been at pains for everyone to forget his past, including the fanning of communal hatred in India (particularly with the destruction of babri masjid) and his (unsuccessful) efforts to bully Pakistan. The Pakistan government too has done the right thing in letting him into Pakistan and talking peace. Since both countries are better off if they live in peace.

Raw_Dust #64: Is your aim to learn about Pakistan, or to just denounce it. If it is the former, then I can answer your questions. If it is the later, then I can only feel sorry for you and sympathesise with you...........

The point in my comment was that, while there has been an entrenched elite in Pakistan, there is one in every third world country. I would assume there is one in India, as well, since it is also a third-world country. And that while such an elite does exist in Pakistan, there is more to Pakistan than that............and there is probably more to India than that also.............

Romair:
So you think an Elite that has gone scot free for its crimes such as Genocide is comparable to the elite in Anyother country? Yes or No. would do.

I dont understand why financial status of grandfathers is relevant here....one solid money making generation is all it takes....my grandfather was a freakin bonded laborer....but his granson now gets pocket money probably closer to Manto`s journalist/school teacher salary...

Mantolives:
you just did qualify by saying it was from Personal Experience in your last post. now you are not so sure. Fine. goodnight whatever. The day middleclass guys go to colleges(not talking of gradschools) in American universities, i will change my position immediately. So, until then lets dream on!

#18 by Mantolives on June 5, 2005 8:04am PT


we hardly need your patronisation for our heroes.


Yup..you`re beyond redemption....Pakistan is destined to be an Islamic state...no mixed marathons, no ``free to worship..`` BS...and jinnah will forever remain an unknown(or world famous in Pakistan)....

I had a great brunch and now I see that A-hole is reduced to responding to a guy who is filtered out already. Actually that is what A-hole’s level is. Both echo and A-hole excel in self-righteous dudgeon and disingenuous horseshit. They are both Twiddledumb and Twiddlephony. What ails Twiddledumb aka A-hole is not whether Pakistan is ruled by the elite or not (because every country is ruled by the elite and the days of his commie masters are long gone and none of them was from the laborer class anyway) but how he can channel his “impotent” rage.

I don’t know who is upper class or middle class on this site neither do I care but I sure know that A-hole is from the gutter class.

#40
So now gujju is going to teach me about America...

Rw_Dust,
Why do you have to prove that Yassar is from what class? Any serious problem?
I know several middle class guys and some guys from poor families go to American schools. What does that prove Raw_dust?

Fascist faujis and other ass-kisser types must be pretty desperate to invite this genocidal maniac and hindu religious nut to our country. Alas! What has naPak fauj turned our country into.

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#75 by HP on June 5, 2005 2:22pm PT


I had a great brunch


Is that what you`re calling a sandwich between fares? Get back to work now...stop goofing off or the taxicab commission will pull your medallion...