Old Neighbors And Old Memories

Re: # 16

Mr Feroz

would you do us a favour....
could you please start a Seperate topic.. and de-construct and then re-construct the history , briefly for the benefit of All.
Yes I know... these is a lot of material available... but a brief account of your de-construct and re-contruct will Help...

Ref Aha_Snark #65

[All right. Thapar and Panikkar have nothing valuable to say. Do you have anything to support that proposition other than your pungent assertion?]

Romila Thapar has been writing that Hindu kings used to demolish temples of their opponent (Hindu) kings and that this explained the destruction of Hindu temples in North India.

If you buy that line I have a bridge I want to sell you.

Except, as a frikking bleeding-heart liberal enthused over having Asia`s largest slum in Dharavi while not concerned about not having a single city of world class anywhere in India, you wouldn`t have too much money to afford the bridge.

re: A_S # 73

LOL...Actually, I have been a JNU liberal, and worse. That unreasonable individual still lives inside me, and casues me considerable misery at regular intervals. :)

You could be right about what was said. I have just been amused to find Jyoti Basu and Mr. Tagodia showing up on the same platform, and in voluble agreement with each other against Jinnah.

Re: # 71
re: kaalchakra:
///JNU liberals and communists have reacted with horror not to the suggestion that Jinnah`s character may have been stained - we see the man as deeply flawed ///

;) So you`re a JNU liberal / communist ?

///but to the suggestion that he may have had secular bones within him.///

Frankly, that suggestion was imputed to Advani but never made by him. Advani said that Jinnah`s speech was a forceful exposition of a secular state, NOT that Jinnah was secular. The difference is subtle but important.

For example, if avenger123 were to say something that I thought was valuable, I would say (considering the shaky ground I would be and my present opinion on his interacts) ``avenger123`s statement X was valuable.`` I don`t think that can be conflated with the statement ``avenger123 is a valuable speaker/ thinker``. There`s miles to go between the two statements.

Cheers,

A_S

Re: # 69
re: mohar11:
///Togadia is : C) Assorted Freak
That`s an easy one - I am surprised you couldn`t figure that out yourself.///

Fair enough.

cheers,
A_S

re: A_S # 67

JNU liberals and communists have reacted with horror not to the suggestion that Jinnah`s character may have been stained - we see the man as deeply flawed - but to the suggestion that he may have had secular bones within him.

A quick perusal of the the newspapers would easily offer evidence, but would gladly provide it here if you need it.

Re: # 56 ana
//...no, jinnah`s actions were not completely jinnah`s alone, he wasn`t like in a vacuum you know...//

Neither was Hitler, or Modi, or pick your lunatic. ..... I am not saying jinnah = hitler = modi...... Just pointing out the absurdity of claiming triggers/stimulus or whatever, as excuse for your actions.

People have to own up. Modi can`t claim godhra as an excuse for his communal massacre. Neither can Jinnah claim congress as an excuse for his communalism. Like I said - ``devil made me do it`` logic doesn`t work.

Re: # 66 aha

Togadia is : C) Assorted Freak

That`s an easy one - I am surprised you couldn`t figure that out yourself.

Re: # 60 feroz
//... was surprised to learn that Indian texts are not critical of Muslim personalities ... Historic analysis should ``cut to the bone`` and no justice .... be done by treating the past with gloved explanations...//

That`s right. But the commie fools who write the text books don`t understand that ..... A lot of people are p!ssed about the ways commies have hijacked history.... but that`s the way it is.

+++

//..As to communalism and demonization of Hindus, would you agree or disagree that same was happening to the Muslims in the pre-1947 Indian politics?...//

I am sure it was happening [at the grass-root level] and it happens even now - this sh!t happens everywhere, all the time. But Jinnah didn`t have to do it. His other contemporaries from congress didn`t demonize anybody, despite their disagreements with him......Jinnah was an educated/experienced leader, he should have known better than that. He had various choices - and he made his choice. He has to own the consequence of his choice - everybody has to.

Yes - there were ``triggers``, there are always triggers. Triggers are just that, triggers - you cannot use them as excuses... Because, even after triggers have been fired, all of us still have many choices to pick from.

I am sure Hitler can claim some ``triggers`` [ I am not saying jinnah=hitler, just giving an example]. Bush can claim triggers for what he did in Iraq. But at the end of the day - 6 mil jews were dead, thousands iraqis dead, hundreds of american soldiers are dead. Triggers, you say?

Re: # 58
re: kaalchakra:

///But notice how JNU liberals and communists - the ever-obstreperous, self-deified `friends of Pakistan,` have reacted to the idea that there might have been shades to Jinnah`s character with howls of complete and unrestrained horror. ///

This is very intriguing. Can you please provide a link or a reference to such an incident ? Or at the very least, shed some more light on (correct me if I`m wrong) the refusal of ``JNU liberals and communists`` to accept that Jinnah`s character might be stained / flawed?

Re: # 55

re: mohar11:

//The so called ``hounding`` is from congress, commies, and other assorted freaks[call themselves ``seculars``] who don`t know jack from their a$$es.//

Praveen Togadia called him a traitor and called for his resignation. So either your proposition is wrong or Praveen Togadia is A) Congress B) Commie C) Assorted Freak D) All of the above. Which is it ?

Re: # 51

re: harimau:

Dear Harimau,

Let`s hope that on this board at least you respond to my queries.

you say:
///Oh yes, you did! All those history books coming out of Romila Thapar`s and KN Panikkar`s arse at JNU is Indian Studies.
Didn`t you learn how lovey-dovey the Islamic Sultans were towards their Hindu subjects?
That is Nehru`s way of keeping the peace on the subcontinent.///

All right. Thapar and Panikkar have nothing valuable to say. Do you have anything to support that proposition other than your pungent assertion?

cheers,
A_S

It is really nice to keep the guest happy bcoz this is our tradation. This is islamic as well. We must look after and feel good about having guest from across the border.But just cursing and making fun of ourselves will make them happy, there is a big questin mark on that. Normally wise people avoid those who feel self pitty.
What all that we try to do is in reaction to our friends there. yes we want to be in peace with them.We do respect them as a big nation, bigger democracy and then as our neighbours.
What all that we want from them isthat when somebody from this side is visiting they should also have a big heart( I am refering just one example of cricket)I will not ask any question about Mr Advani that why the poor fallow was forced to resign and still you talk of love flooding in from the common people of both the cpountries. Sir plz look in to this as well.This is food for thought for those who really want friendly relation between both the nation

Re: # 40
re: bbabu:
///There is nothing wrong with a religious education if teaches proper values and if it emphaises balance and moderation.///

I agree completely. Any value based education which emphasises balance and moderation would be worth enough indeed. In my opinion, you will have to look really hard to find a political text as radical as the Isa the Kena and the Katha Upanishads. What they exhort people to do is find the truth for yourself and refuse to accept received wisdom.

My reservations on your statement stem from my belief that in Hinduism at least (the only religion that I can speak of with any degree of confidence) the body of what can be called religious literature / thought is vast and so devoid of any central theme or overriding concept. Furthermore, in closely related or in the same texts, ``virtues`` such as duty, expediency, honesty and subterfuge are promoted equally. If a religious education could spread balance and moderation I`d be all for it

cheers,

A_S

ally

People like you do a lot to change our opinions of Pakistan. It`s unfair, but real learning about Pakistan is going to be slow, at least among the hard-headed cynics. The love brigade in India has no credibility, being worthy of no respect or attention.

The problem is that for a very long time we have not heard from the common person in Pakistan, unless that common person was frothing at the mouth about Kashmir, or paying us a very unfriendly visit as a Jihadi. Over time, Indian people have learnt to identify the whole of Pakistan with the `proactive` Pakistani military. And it is fair to say that between Pakistani military and Indian people, there is no love lost. People to people contact and reconciliation will be much easier and is already occurring. Pakistan earned an unsavory reputation over many long decades. So please be patient. It will gradually step out of the shadows of that past, as that past is perceived by outsiders.

re: rahulmal # 53

I would agree, with your conclusions.

re: kaalchakra # 58

Yes, it would seem that there is a distorted version of history in both the nations and there are people on both sides of the border, who wish to believe this version of history.

Ciao