Old Neighbors And Old Memories

#38 by Aha_Snark on June 7, 2005 1:37pm PT


Certainly on this board I estimate that the majority of hateful comments come from the Indians (bring on the flames)


In my years of reading and posting to chowk, hardly any Pakistani has admitted to supporting the Islamic terrorists in Kashmir or to supporting the taliban or to supporting Osama Bin Laden...That doesn`t automatically mean Pakis don`t do all that...

As an analogy, just cos your parents don`t wear bellbottoms today, it doesn`t mean they didn`t wear them in the 70s...It`s just that bellbottoms fell out of fashion...

with pakis, jihad(or openly admitting to supporting jihad) went out of fashion after 9/11, thanks in no small part to trailer park lynndie and the not-so-fun prospect of getting sent to gitmo....

As the Advani saga unfolds, the pipeline saga moves ahead.....or is it???......India is now going to supply diesel to Pakistan.......what next??....

Musharraf sets date for pipeline work
Source: IANS. Image Source: IS


Islamabad, June 7: President Pervez Musharraf wants work on the proposed $4 billion (Rs.174 billion) Iran-Pakistan-India natural gas pipeline to begin by next year and guarantees the security of the stretch passing through this country.

Musharraf`s comments came when visiting Indian Petroleum Minister Mani Shankar Aiyar called on him here Tuesday to discuss the project.

``It`s our earnest desire to finalize matters (relating to the) pipeline,`` Online news agency quoted Musharraf as saying.

Musharraf said the modalities of the project should be finalized at the earliest so that work on it could start by next year.

He assured the Indian minister that the stretch of pipeline passing through Pakistan would be fully protected.

He brushed aside concerns by the US on the pipeline, saying ``there is nothing for anyone to worry about the project. The project will not be abandoned.``

He said Islamabad would welcome India participating in pipeline projects from Turkmenistan and Qatar.

The president said the Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline was in the interest of the three countries since it would generate huge economic activities.

It would also contribute to ongoing efforts for reducing poverty, creating more jobs and improving the quality of life in the region, the president said.

Sources said the Indian offer of supplying 325,000 tonnes of diesel at concessional rates also came up for discussion in the meeting.

Aiyar updated the president on his two-day talks with his Pakistani counterpart Amanullah Jadoon on the pipeline project and said both the countries had agreed to start work on it soon.

According to him, New Delhi and Islamabad would negotiate with Tehran for finalizing the project`s technical, financial and legal specifications.

Aha_Snark # 38

`` I think a madrassah education would be quite dehumanising, I`ve a thing against dogma. From what I`ve seen, Indians tend to be more accepting of differentness than Pakistanis. That`s the consequence of having to deal with thousands of languages, cultures, food habits, social mores etc. There are attacks on this tolerance, but I have substantial faith in it`s resilience. Say what you will but I`m glad that I never studied Indian Studies. And I think religion in education is a bad idea. As commonly propagated today, it tends to rot the critical faculties.``

There is nothing wrong with a religious education if teaches proper values and if it emphaises balance and moderation.

There are innumerable Jesuit priests educated in Catholic schools who do a fine job of serving the downtrodden.

The real problem is with the Pakistani madrassah education and the overall mindset/ atmosphere in Pakistan.

Re: # 40
re: bbabu:
///There is nothing wrong with a religious education if teaches proper values and if it emphaises balance and moderation.///

I agree completely. Any value based education which emphasises balance and moderation would be worth enough indeed. In my opinion, you will have to look really hard to find a political text as radical as the Isa the Kena and the Katha Upanishads. What they exhort people to do is find the truth for yourself and refuse to accept received wisdom.

My reservations on your statement stem from my belief that in Hinduism at least (the only religion that I can speak of with any degree of confidence) the body of what can be called religious literature / thought is vast and so devoid of any central theme or overriding concept. Furthermore, in closely related or in the same texts, ``virtues`` such as duty, expediency, honesty and subterfuge are promoted equally. If a religious education could spread balance and moderation I`d be all for it

cheers,

A_S

re: A_S # 38

That`s actually quite fair. :)

ally #21, # 25

`` As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them. ``

I do not know whether generalizations work

`` But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education? ``

Since you are so knowledgeable about Indian education system there is no one single education system in India. There are multiple systems - practically at least one for each state.

`` It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!! ``

The last time I checked only 1-2 million Pakistanis studied in the madrasas. Majority of Pakistanis study in non-religious schools.

`` I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted. ``

What is wrong about Amerika and Ingland ? They have been productive and hospitable countries to allow 3 million Indians and 1 million Pakistanis to lead good lives.

I have fairly decent knowledge of Pakistani politics, military and geography. I cannot speak for others.

`` If Pakistan has nothing to offer then why are your leaders in our country talking about trade and pipelines? ``

How much oil has flown through the pipelines ? How much trade has there been ?

`` I have not said that we do not have malice and indoctrination, i am saying that from my personal interactions with indians from india and reading chowk interactors, to me it appears that indians are less interested in us as we are in them, and that their is more dislike in them for us than there is in us for them. ``

Pakistanis have a bigger vested interest in how India evolves than the other way around.
It is as simple as that. I do not expect too many Pakistanis to be proficient on India given the size and diversity of India.

`` Regarding South Asian ppl in the UK. Young men can be hooligans be they Hindu Sikh Muslim or whatever, they are not representative of a community. Sikh and Hindu boys are not so innoccent, go up to Birmingham and the midlands! ``

Most of the hooligan behavior, forced marriages in UK are attributed to Pakistani/Kashmiri Muslims. There are a small percentage that is attributed to Hindus/Sikhs. You can normalize the offending samples to the size of the respective populations.

re: Manto # 18

TNT certainly wasn`t born with Jinnah but why would Raja Ram Mohan Roy be called any sort of TNTist?


re: ally # 22

Your last line is on the money. The act of closure never does a community/nation any good.

IMHO, Indians` attitudes toward Pakistanis are shaped more by the very close identification Indians have come to form with the Indian state, not by their Romilla Thapar education.

re: temporal # 31

No sir, I have not had the pleasure of reading it. In fact, there is a small tower of books, leaning carelessly, which I hope to read this summer.

re: Inquirer # 30

Thanks for your comments. I have been living in Lahore for the last few years. I think that you are being overly generous, but I am honored to think that I, a poor fool, might have something in common with a learned and educated person, such as a professor of history from Allahabad University.

re: Dost-Mittar # 29

It was not a question of finding the energy, but it was the question of being faithful. My mother has a deep attachement to Lakshmi Mansions and it is her wish to preserve this place as a historic site. I simply was fulfilling my filial duty towards her wish by trying to highlight the case of Lakshmi Mansions and make into a historic site. Some of the best memories of my childhood are associated with this place and I think, in a manner of speaking, preserving Lakshmi Mansions is also the same as preserving the innocence of my childhood days.

re: shobig_sifar # 28

Thank you for your comments on my i-ilogs. Yes; this article was written after a very long day and in fact, it started out as an i-log entry. :)

Ciao

IS THIS THE SAME YASSER AS MANTO WALA YASSER?

EH HAR JAGA GHUSSYA HOYA HAI.

feroz:

have you read his `confessions of a secular fundamenalist?`

Feroz:
It was a delight to read your article!
For the first time I found that you are stationed in Lahore. It was so assuring because I thought that you are a harmonized Pakistani in America. Now I know that there is indeed a champpion of decency right there in Pakistan!
I am a son of a History Professor from Allahabad University, and though probably you are not older than me, you reminded me of his sensibilities.

**** Pakistani leaders were born in India and Indian leaders were born in Pakistan! ****
Let us hope that we will be able to utilize the momentum towards the development of friendship and brotherhood than can be dimly glimpsed at this moment between India and Pakistan.

**** I was wondering all throughout the dinner, was there a reason that the our governments had created this particular climate, because deep down in their hearts they must realize fully well what would happen if the goodness of the people is allowed to express itself freely? ****
Yes, we were fooled by the clever Westerners who wanted to make sure that the resurgent India (= South Asia) that would emerge would not be a serious leader and rival to the so called ``advanced politico-cultural complex`` of theirs. They could not in 1947 foresee the collapse of an alternative to them, viz. Soviet Union and could not take a chance to have to contend with another alternative, not only to their ideology but also a way of life that would put them in position to learn from another culture. Thus, they exacerbated the diffuse differences between South Asian Hindus and Muslims which were practically resolvable within the deemed democratic framework to the extent that the partition became unavoidable.
Finally, we have to learn from the West to be skeptic of our Governments because, remember, all governments are a facade for the vested intesests within any nation.

Hi Feroz:

Where do you get all this energy, yaar?

Nice article. Really liked this:
``It takes one of such moments to realize the hollowness of all we take for granted and all we claim to fight for, because in the end, what matters is not the principles of state sovereignty but the indivisibility of humanity, which is based on kindness and love and care for another human being.``

It is heartening to know that Indian and Pakistani diplomats get along so well with each other. Now, if only they could take some of that bonhomie into the negotiating table, things would be a lot better!

Re: # 29 DM
//....It is heartening to know that Indian and Pakistani diplomats get along so well with each other. ...//

We have seen all this before - this so-called bonhomie and mushy-gushy bullsh!t has been repeated so many times - and every time they have ended in disaster for India. This time would be no different - this time it would be the biggest disaster in history of india.

There is lot of wishful assumptions flying around. That`s problem with pinheads from delhi. They don`t cover their bases as they are supposed to. With passport-less travel introduced by moron from delhi - the stage is set for a big mis-chief by islamic freaks.

Very interesting read Feroze!

Basic human nature does certainly transcend all political and geographical confinements.

[It seems that all the tensions are on the official level and when it comes to common people, there is only a wish to be friendly with one another.]

haven`t socialised with many people from across the border as yet, but provided th interations here, i am forced to doubt this statement. Or is it that everybody here is an `official`?

p.s. I hardly miss any of your i-logs, and must say, they are a lot more coherent and grammatically and linguistically flawless as compared to this article. Did you write this piece upon returning home straight after that exhausting day? :)

feroz joon,

this was nice. i suspect the ``humanity`` aspect of this will go and has gone largely ignored, comme d`habitude. :)

we humans could also long to return to the place of our birth and our childhood in later years because quite ``simply`` that is part of who we are. something that some of us have denied for whatever reason but perhaps need to rectify to make us ``complete`` again, who knows? and who knows really why or what was behind aiyar sahib wanting to visit the mansions. i do know that unblemished bliss and carefree joy have not been part of everyone`s childhood.

but to pick on something else in this article, yaar, have you forgotten your french? what is this rite d`passage? ye koi naya istyle hai kya?! now remember: the ``de`` is only contracted to ``d``` before vowels, and silent consonants before the vowel, comme ``d`habitude.``

feel free to correct my urdu next time. LOL. i will probably never get the gender thing right. thank goodness for farsi and its absence of grammatical gender!

will teach french for food!
love,
ana

Theo,

In my post i wasn`t talking about South Asian ppl living abroad. I am talking about Indian ppl in India. You say,

``The reason why most Indians dont know anything about Pakistan is because Pakistan has nothing to offer them. Nobody is obliged to know anything about anybody. And knowledge wont reduce the hatred``

If Pakistan has nothing to offer then why are your leaders in our country talking about trade and pipelines?

You are correct no one is obliged to know anything about anyone, however, by knowing others you understand them and realise they are humans just like you, if you decide to hate them it will be for your own reasons, and not reasons told to you by others.

I have not said that we do not have malice and indoctrination, i am saying that from my personal interactions with indians from india and reading chowk interactors, to me it appears that indians are less interested in us as we are in them, and that their is more dislike in them for us than there is in us for them.

Regarding South Asian ppl in the UK. Young men can be hooligans be they Hindu Sikh Muslim or whatever, they are not representative of a community. Sikh and Hindu boys are not so innoccent, go up to Birmingham and the midlands!

I am not here to get into an argument/name calling about who is better etc. I had to say what i had to say to my (Pakistani) people.

Khuda Hafiz