Old Neighbors And Old Memories

Kamath

What a question.

Ally

Have you talked to Pakistanis in Bradford, Birmingham or London what they think of Indians? Its not very nice, especially amongst the Jihadi-Israel-Hating-America-Must-Burn young generation. There might be a residual affection in the older generations, and one or two hippie Pakistanis like yourself, but hatred of India runs deep and is a central part of the Pakistani identity, religious and national hatred combined.

Of course this hatred is easily transferrable to other groups. At the momnt what has Pakistanis in Britain clenching their buttocks with rage is Israel and the Jews. Your community even sent a couple of their boys over there to blow themselves and take a few Zionist b@stard nightclub teenagers with them.

Whatever Indians feel towards Pakistan is one thing, criticise it all you like, but dont come with the nonsense about Pakistanis being a race of higher beings without malice or indoctrination. Its so ridiculous and foolish.

The reason why most Indians dont know anything about Pakistan is because Pakistan has nothing to offer them. Nobody is obliged to know anything about anybody. And knowledge wont reduce the hatred. It is not unusual in Pakistani infested mela`s in Britain to see Pakistani boys chanting anti-India slogans, throwing things at the Sikh and Hindu musicians on stage, dreaming of blowing themselves up in a temple or synagogue, all the while swapping Bollywood ringtones and acting like buffoons. No Vaisakhi or Diwali mela takes place in Britain without a customary quota of Pakistani hooligans who arrive to make trouble. There is something which ails them. A deep mental disturbance and inferiority complex perhaps. Do you have any idea what it could be? Recently, police in Southall ordered that any Pakistanis caught with the Pakistan flag during Eid celebrations there would have it confiscated or be arrested. The reason for this was that Pakistani boys would taunt, harass and provoke Indians in Southall, make it their mission to do so, and every year it leads to fights and violence.

You do not see Sikhs or Hindus going to Muslim areas on Diwali or Vaisakhi with Indian flags, or Jewish people waving the Israel flag in Pakistani faces during Channukah. So I think it is plain that the hatred you see in Indians is amply reciprocated by your brothers and sisters, with extra added vehemence and spice. Stop acting like Pollyana.

Re: # 22

Are you by any chance related to the Dutch man TheoVanGogh who was murdered last year or is this psuedo name?

As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them.

One of my Gujerati friends told me that Indians are not as nice towards Pakistani ppl as we are to Indians, and she also told me to be careful if i went to India.

But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education?

It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!!

I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.

They need to be educated on us, and our country, otherwise they will continue to deal with us with their skewed stereotypes. It is important that this education takes place sooner, as our dealings with them are now increasing.

We have kept oursleves a closed country from the outside world for too long. We need to open up and they need to see and learn.

Re: # 21
re: ally:

///As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them.///

Many massive generalisations to follow...

I call this India tumescent or India erect. Drunk on the gyrations of the SENSEX, throbbing wetly in synchrony with the reported foreign exchange reserves, overly proud of the consumer choice in hatchbacks, strutting to be thought of as the country associated with outsourcing, frustrated by the sheer mass of stubbornly poor people, so removed from them as to posit cruel, inhumane and simplistic solutions to their problems, envious of China while childishly gleeful that India is doing relatively well while Pakistan is not and filled with a sense of having left their country behind, the diasporic Indian professional marinates himself in an imagined sense of what the desh and what the religion actually is.

Be gracious in their success ? What would be the point of that ? You`ve got to flaunt your croc-skin wallet otherwise who`ll know you from any TPLAC [1] ?

Certainly on this board I estimate that the majority of hateful comments come from the Indians (bring on the flames). This is in direct contrast to the vast majority of Indians I *know*, most of whom would never use Chowk. So, as in many other things, what you see of the public Indian image is often at variance with reality. Oh, and I don`t mean to say that the poor Pakistanis on this form are as mild as buttermilk and as sweet as rasmalai.

///One of my Gujerati friends told me that Indians are not as nice towards Pakistani ppl as we are to Indians, and she also told me to be careful if i went to India.///

*shrug* I was concerned when my friend visited Pakistan. Your friend has a right to their opinion.

///But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education?///

I think a madrassah education would be quite dehumanising, I`ve a thing against dogma. From what I`ve seen, Indians tend to be more accepting of differentness than Pakistanis. That`s the consequence of having to deal with thousands of languages, cultures, food habits, social mores etc. There are attacks on this tolerance, but I have substantial faith in it`s resilience. Say what you will but I`m glad that I never studied Indian Studies. And I think religion in education is a bad idea. As commonly propagated today, it tends to rot the critical faculties.

///It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!!///

Desis, Indian and Pakistanis love to strut. Truth. Just read the editorials / comments / messages (``Crush India!`` ?? 8-D ) in Pakistani newspapers when it looked like India was at a disadvantage in the Kargil war. Oh how the Hamid Guls came out of the woodwork then ;)

///I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country,///

I agree completely. I think it was romair who said (correct me if I get the name / substance wrong) that the most advantageous measure that Pakistan could take to win people over to consider it`s point of view would be to vigorously and unilaterally relax visa restrictions. Let those with disposable incomes drive down to Lahore and they`ll come back and rave about Food Street.. and the awesome deals on DVDs they got. And the people who were ``just like them``. And they`ll spread the word. And before you know it, Indians from Tamil Nadu to Tripura will, on a whim, drive over the border to a country they`ve heard so much about yet know so very little.

More than anything, let journalists roam with little or no restrictions, and a horde of travel writers will descend on out-of-the-way places in Pakistan - followed, visa, facilities and security permitting, by greater hordes of tourists. Don`t be a stranger. And watch the horns melt away from the imaginations.

/// and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.///

What do you expect? At least you`re lucky enough to see glimpses of India from TV and pirated movies (however flawed they might be). Indian mental constructions of Pakistan only have the Indian and international media to draw from. And like all media, they have their biases too.

///They need to be educated on us, and our country, otherwise they will continue to deal with us with their skewed stereotypes. It is important that this education takes place sooner, as our dealings with them are now increasing.///

Yaar, class mein thodi padhaoge ? Khud aa ke dekhenge to man mein kuch baithega.

///We have kept oursleves a closed country from the outside world for too long. We need to open up and they need to see and learn.///

True.

Cheers,
A_S
[1] http://www.yes-minister.com/otherterms.htm

Please read the post again.... I don`t endorse your thesis. What I endorse is that you are the other (Indian) side of the same coin .... i.e. teaching nationalist mythology in place of history

Re: # 20

Whatever!!! You know my reaction to that!!

``...TNT or any other theory has a time and a place... and like all ideas it is an imagined existence...............``

This is exactly what my thesis is....and you also endorse it ..the man sitting next to you suddenly becomes a welcome guest the moment this madness called TNT disappears in thin air.............the next door enemy suddenly becomes a long lost relative..............this is exactly what I mean by detoxification from Paki psyche........

Jinnah only said it after major Hindu leaders had been saying it for ages. Have you asked yourself why a politician, who bitterly opposed separate electorates and was for most of his life the staunchest advocate of Hindu Muslim unity, all of sudden in the 67th year of his life transform into a TNTist? TNT didn`t start with Jinnah... it predated Jinnah by 2 centuries ... starting with Ram Mohan Roy and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan (the positive TNTists) and Lala Lajpat Rai, the first leader to articulate the idea of Pakistan... right here in Lahore. However Jinnah certainly ended it with his famous speech.

In any event, the idea of TNT was to achieve an equipoise in an all India centre and not separation/partition. Pakistan as it was formed was a clear negation of the tnt ... or atleast TNT became irrelevant after its formation.

As I I Chundrigar famously said and Jinnah agreed the Lahore resolution aimed at achieving a constitutional compromise to weld the two nations in governance of their common motherland India.

Reality should be taught... TNT or any other theory has a time and a place... and like all ideas it is an imagined existence. Only Indians seem to be obsessed in disproving a theory that is largely irrelevant when Pakistan has non-muslims and India has muslims (hence Jinnah`s 11th August speech).

-YLH

Great , err...but wan`t it Jinnah who said that the two nations exist in every colony and the backyards ........does it not all depend upon how you perceive tha man sitting next to you to be ????....I can see that this Jinnah view of TNT is finally getting detoxified from the PAkistani psyche.................

Kaurasach # 5

Lahore American School is affliated with the United States` Department of State, and such does not follow the curricula of the Pakistan Board of Education. It is a private school, which is free to decide it own texts books within the parameters as established by the Association of American Middle Schools. LAS offers Islamiyat and Pakistan history, because these two courses are required if LAS students want to attend a college/medical school in Pakistan.

I have also taught at Aitchison College, where I had to teach according to the prescribed curricula of the government`s board of education. In Aitchison, I did not follow the guidelines or the course material as I considered them to be highly biased and historically flawed. I taught from my old college notes. In this, I had the support of Mr. Shamim Khan, the Principal of Aitchison College. I had talked to Mr. Shamim Khan and told him that Pakistan Studies, as taught were nothing more than unbridled lies, and his reply was: teach them the real history!

In LAS, I force the students to think critically and to review the history of Pakistan through unblinkered prism. Haroon Shaikh is one of my students and I am sure that he will attest to the fact that I spare no one or any institution in my class. There have been times, when Haroon was kind enough to warn me that I was moving beyond ``too many danger lines``. I do not teach the mullah/whabbi course and in fact, most of my students are very uncomfortable with my questions and comments on Pakistan.

I think that if real history were to be taught, there would be a lot of people in India and Pakistan, who would get very uncomfortable. In my humble opinion, instead of teaching the reality of the past in India and Pakistan, we teach them the offical mythology, which we call as history; but it is not history. It is a highly skilled revisionism of facts mixed with distortions to create a perception, which is more fiction than it is factual in its over instructional values.

Ciao

Re: # 16

Mr Feroz

would you do us a favour....
could you please start a Seperate topic.. and de-construct and then re-construct the history , briefly for the benefit of All.
Yes I know... these is a lot of material available... but a brief account of your de-construct and re-contruct will Help...

Re: # 16
re: ferozk:

While this is a really nice India-Pak piece, your comment refers to what I would believe would be a nicer one. There`s very little as critical or as fascinating as the turbulent boundary between a decade and a half of indoctrination and the first critical thoughts of a sentient human being.

How did you teach your courses (the ones from your college notes) ? Have you had arguments/discussions with students ? Intelligent ones who are firm in their beliefs ? What are the problems you have faced ? Were you ever forced to defend ideas or principles that you were not sure of yourself ? What was the experience like ?

Stud this narrative with examples, sprinkle with accounts of food, life and powercuts and it could turn out to be a very very interesting text indeed.

cheers,

A_S

Kauray

What you have pointed to is a serious problem.

However Pakistan has several streams of education ... and in most American and British schools the texts used are by foreign authors or are Oxford University Press approved.

Mr Feroz Khan uses ``History of Pakistan in 20th century by Lawrence Zirring`` which is an excellent book ...

A really nice Indo-Pak piece.

F R Khan

Thanks for capturing these moments.

nhk