Old Neighbors And Old Memories

Great , err...but wan`t it Jinnah who said that the two nations exist in every colony and the backyards ........does it not all depend upon how you perceive tha man sitting next to you to be ????....I can see that this Jinnah view of TNT is finally getting detoxified from the PAkistani psyche.................

Jinnah only said it after major Hindu leaders had been saying it for ages. Have you asked yourself why a politician, who bitterly opposed separate electorates and was for most of his life the staunchest advocate of Hindu Muslim unity, all of sudden in the 67th year of his life transform into a TNTist? TNT didn`t start with Jinnah... it predated Jinnah by 2 centuries ... starting with Ram Mohan Roy and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan (the positive TNTists) and Lala Lajpat Rai, the first leader to articulate the idea of Pakistan... right here in Lahore. However Jinnah certainly ended it with his famous speech.

In any event, the idea of TNT was to achieve an equipoise in an all India centre and not separation/partition. Pakistan as it was formed was a clear negation of the tnt ... or atleast TNT became irrelevant after its formation.

As I I Chundrigar famously said and Jinnah agreed the Lahore resolution aimed at achieving a constitutional compromise to weld the two nations in governance of their common motherland India.

Reality should be taught... TNT or any other theory has a time and a place... and like all ideas it is an imagined existence. Only Indians seem to be obsessed in disproving a theory that is largely irrelevant when Pakistan has non-muslims and India has muslims (hence Jinnah`s 11th August speech).

-YLH

``...TNT or any other theory has a time and a place... and like all ideas it is an imagined existence...............``

This is exactly what my thesis is....and you also endorse it ..the man sitting next to you suddenly becomes a welcome guest the moment this madness called TNT disappears in thin air.............the next door enemy suddenly becomes a long lost relative..............this is exactly what I mean by detoxification from Paki psyche........

Please read the post again.... I don`t endorse your thesis. What I endorse is that you are the other (Indian) side of the same coin .... i.e. teaching nationalist mythology in place of history

As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them.

One of my Gujerati friends told me that Indians are not as nice towards Pakistani ppl as we are to Indians, and she also told me to be careful if i went to India.

But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education?

It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!!

I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.

They need to be educated on us, and our country, otherwise they will continue to deal with us with their skewed stereotypes. It is important that this education takes place sooner, as our dealings with them are now increasing.

We have kept oursleves a closed country from the outside world for too long. We need to open up and they need to see and learn.

Ally

Have you talked to Pakistanis in Bradford, Birmingham or London what they think of Indians? Its not very nice, especially amongst the Jihadi-Israel-Hating-America-Must-Burn young generation. There might be a residual affection in the older generations, and one or two hippie Pakistanis like yourself, but hatred of India runs deep and is a central part of the Pakistani identity, religious and national hatred combined.

Of course this hatred is easily transferrable to other groups. At the momnt what has Pakistanis in Britain clenching their buttocks with rage is Israel and the Jews. Your community even sent a couple of their boys over there to blow themselves and take a few Zionist b@stard nightclub teenagers with them.

Whatever Indians feel towards Pakistan is one thing, criticise it all you like, but dont come with the nonsense about Pakistanis being a race of higher beings without malice or indoctrination. Its so ridiculous and foolish.

The reason why most Indians dont know anything about Pakistan is because Pakistan has nothing to offer them. Nobody is obliged to know anything about anybody. And knowledge wont reduce the hatred. It is not unusual in Pakistani infested mela`s in Britain to see Pakistani boys chanting anti-India slogans, throwing things at the Sikh and Hindu musicians on stage, dreaming of blowing themselves up in a temple or synagogue, all the while swapping Bollywood ringtones and acting like buffoons. No Vaisakhi or Diwali mela takes place in Britain without a customary quota of Pakistani hooligans who arrive to make trouble. There is something which ails them. A deep mental disturbance and inferiority complex perhaps. Do you have any idea what it could be? Recently, police in Southall ordered that any Pakistanis caught with the Pakistan flag during Eid celebrations there would have it confiscated or be arrested. The reason for this was that Pakistani boys would taunt, harass and provoke Indians in Southall, make it their mission to do so, and every year it leads to fights and violence.

You do not see Sikhs or Hindus going to Muslim areas on Diwali or Vaisakhi with Indian flags, or Jewish people waving the Israel flag in Pakistani faces during Channukah. So I think it is plain that the hatred you see in Indians is amply reciprocated by your brothers and sisters, with extra added vehemence and spice. Stop acting like Pollyana.

Re: # 22

Are you by any chance related to the Dutch man TheoVanGogh who was murdered last year or is this psuedo name?

Kamath

What a question.

Theo,

In my post i wasn`t talking about South Asian ppl living abroad. I am talking about Indian ppl in India. You say,

``The reason why most Indians dont know anything about Pakistan is because Pakistan has nothing to offer them. Nobody is obliged to know anything about anybody. And knowledge wont reduce the hatred``

If Pakistan has nothing to offer then why are your leaders in our country talking about trade and pipelines?

You are correct no one is obliged to know anything about anyone, however, by knowing others you understand them and realise they are humans just like you, if you decide to hate them it will be for your own reasons, and not reasons told to you by others.

I have not said that we do not have malice and indoctrination, i am saying that from my personal interactions with indians from india and reading chowk interactors, to me it appears that indians are less interested in us as we are in them, and that their is more dislike in them for us than there is in us for them.

Regarding South Asian ppl in the UK. Young men can be hooligans be they Hindu Sikh Muslim or whatever, they are not representative of a community. Sikh and Hindu boys are not so innoccent, go up to Birmingham and the midlands!

I am not here to get into an argument/name calling about who is better etc. I had to say what i had to say to my (Pakistani) people.

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 20

Whatever!!! You know my reaction to that!!

feroz joon,

this was nice. i suspect the ``humanity`` aspect of this will go and has gone largely ignored, comme d`habitude. :)

we humans could also long to return to the place of our birth and our childhood in later years because quite ``simply`` that is part of who we are. something that some of us have denied for whatever reason but perhaps need to rectify to make us ``complete`` again, who knows? and who knows really why or what was behind aiyar sahib wanting to visit the mansions. i do know that unblemished bliss and carefree joy have not been part of everyone`s childhood.

but to pick on something else in this article, yaar, have you forgotten your french? what is this rite d`passage? ye koi naya istyle hai kya?! now remember: the ``de`` is only contracted to ``d``` before vowels, and silent consonants before the vowel, comme ``d`habitude.``

feel free to correct my urdu next time. LOL. i will probably never get the gender thing right. thank goodness for farsi and its absence of grammatical gender!

will teach french for food!
love,
ana

Very interesting read Feroze!

Basic human nature does certainly transcend all political and geographical confinements.

[It seems that all the tensions are on the official level and when it comes to common people, there is only a wish to be friendly with one another.]

haven`t socialised with many people from across the border as yet, but provided th interations here, i am forced to doubt this statement. Or is it that everybody here is an `official`?

p.s. I hardly miss any of your i-logs, and must say, they are a lot more coherent and grammatically and linguistically flawless as compared to this article. Did you write this piece upon returning home straight after that exhausting day? :)

Hi Feroz:

Where do you get all this energy, yaar?

Nice article. Really liked this:
``It takes one of such moments to realize the hollowness of all we take for granted and all we claim to fight for, because in the end, what matters is not the principles of state sovereignty but the indivisibility of humanity, which is based on kindness and love and care for another human being.``

It is heartening to know that Indian and Pakistani diplomats get along so well with each other. Now, if only they could take some of that bonhomie into the negotiating table, things would be a lot better!

Feroz:
It was a delight to read your article!
For the first time I found that you are stationed in Lahore. It was so assuring because I thought that you are a harmonized Pakistani in America. Now I know that there is indeed a champpion of decency right there in Pakistan!
I am a son of a History Professor from Allahabad University, and though probably you are not older than me, you reminded me of his sensibilities.

**** Pakistani leaders were born in India and Indian leaders were born in Pakistan! ****
Let us hope that we will be able to utilize the momentum towards the development of friendship and brotherhood than can be dimly glimpsed at this moment between India and Pakistan.

**** I was wondering all throughout the dinner, was there a reason that the our governments had created this particular climate, because deep down in their hearts they must realize fully well what would happen if the goodness of the people is allowed to express itself freely? ****
Yes, we were fooled by the clever Westerners who wanted to make sure that the resurgent India (= South Asia) that would emerge would not be a serious leader and rival to the so called ``advanced politico-cultural complex`` of theirs. They could not in 1947 foresee the collapse of an alternative to them, viz. Soviet Union and could not take a chance to have to contend with another alternative, not only to their ideology but also a way of life that would put them in position to learn from another culture. Thus, they exacerbated the diffuse differences between South Asian Hindus and Muslims which were practically resolvable within the deemed democratic framework to the extent that the partition became unavoidable.
Finally, we have to learn from the West to be skeptic of our Governments because, remember, all governments are a facade for the vested intesests within any nation.

feroz:

have you read his `confessions of a secular fundamenalist?`

IS THIS THE SAME YASSER AS MANTO WALA YASSER?

EH HAR JAGA GHUSSYA HOYA HAI.