Old Neighbors And Old Memories

Sir,

That was a nice piece. The custom of arriving 1 hour after the prescribed time is not a Pakistani trait alone, its common across the subcontinent. Indian Standard Time (IST) is also known as Indian *Stretched* Time.

regards,

Mani Shankar Aiyar is a sitting Member of Parliament from Tamil Nadu.I do not understand the Lahore connection??.Just curious.


http://www.tn.gov.in/tnassembly/mptn-ls.htm

This was one of those rare India-Pak articles that I enjoyed reading. I hope the Laxmi Mansions thing worked out... did it? Btw, I`m not clear - is it one building or is an enclave kind of a deal? I`d have liked to see a description of it somewhere.

cayenne - MSA was born in Lahore. He`s one of those pan-Indian kind of citizens like the late JN Dixit for eg.

Mr. Khan,

Since you are a history teacher, please honestly answer the following question. Do you teach based on the mullah/govt curriculum of biased history that starts with Qasim and skip all non muslim contributions.

If you don`t, how do get around it without their wrath. And, how prevalent is that.

In Inida, we have our fare share of lies. But, enough sources are available to contradict the lies.

Mr. Khan,

Since you are a history teacher, please honestly answer the following question. Do you teach based on the mullah/govt curriculum of biased history that starts with Qasim and skip all non muslim contributions.

If you don`t, how do get around it without their wrath. And, how prevalent is that.

In Inida, we have our fare share of lies. But, enough sources are available to contradict the lies.

Kaurasach, L.A.S is a private school and it has it`s own curriculm, which is based on the American Principles of Education. The history courses offered are, World History I, World History II, Advance Placement European History, Advance Placement World History, American History, Advance Placement American History, Pakistani History, and history of the subcontinent.

I`ve had Mr. Feroz as my teacher since 9th grade and have taken all the classes he has taught so far in school and shall be taking AP European History with him next year.

I have not taken history of the subcontinent as Mr. Feroz does not teach that subject. I think L.A.S offers a very in-depth, comphrensive, and well-rounded education to her students.

``I was wondering all throughout the dinner, was there a reason that the our governments had created this particular climate, because deep down in their hearts they must realize fully well what would happen if the goodness of the people is allowed to express itself freely? ``

FerozK sahib - you got it captured just right on the money. I wonder, how in the world this Army is pulling through to commit its very own political suicide. I would give the credit to megalomaniac amreeki planners sitting very far from Lahore. The fascist hindu right has just recalibrated their whole politics with Advani`s visit and here Army is administering a lethal potion to its very existence. I hope it turns out as deadly as it looks.

cayenne #2

`` Mani Shankar Aiyar is a sitting Member of Parliament from Tamil Nadu.I do not understand the Lahore connection??.Just curious.
http://www.tn.gov.in/tnassembly/mptn-ls.htm ``

The word ``Aiyar`` is a corruption of the word ``Iyer``. He is a Tamil Brahmin who has settled in the North. This must be the first time he won a election from TN. I doubt he could win election without support of DMK or AIADMK. The guy is a sycophant for the Nehru family. I doubt he spends any time in Tamilnadu. I believe he used to be a MP for a Hindi speaking state. Probably a member of the Rajya Sabha.

heres his photo.

...storm in a tea cup...?

Ref bbabu #8

[The word ``Aiyar`` is a corruption of the word ``Iyer``. He is a Tamil Brahmin who has settled in the North. This must be the first time he won a election from TN. I doubt he could win election without support of DMK or AIADMK. The guy is a sycophant for the Nehru family. I doubt he spends any time in Tamilnadu. I believe he used to be a MP for a Hindi speaking state. Probably a member of the Rajya Sabha.]

You are right on most counts. He in normal times can`t get elected dogcatcher in the Mayiladuthurai Municipality. His consistent sycophancy got him the MP`s seat; that, and the support of all parties except the ADMK-BJP combine in Tamil Nadu.

He is a member of the Lok Sabha not the Rajya Sabha.

I believe he is married to a Punjabi woman, this being the limit of his taste in exotic women. Rajiv Gandhi couldn`t get an Englishwoman and so had to settle for an Italian.

[Soon a couple of people from CID showed up and I accompanied them as they checked the bouquets for bombs.]

This certainly was NOT doing India any favors!

F R Khan

Thanks for capturing these moments.

nhk

A really nice Indo-Pak piece.

Kauray

What you have pointed to is a serious problem.

However Pakistan has several streams of education ... and in most American and British schools the texts used are by foreign authors or are Oxford University Press approved.

Mr Feroz Khan uses ``History of Pakistan in 20th century by Lawrence Zirring`` which is an excellent book ...

Kaurasach # 5

Lahore American School is affliated with the United States` Department of State, and such does not follow the curricula of the Pakistan Board of Education. It is a private school, which is free to decide it own texts books within the parameters as established by the Association of American Middle Schools. LAS offers Islamiyat and Pakistan history, because these two courses are required if LAS students want to attend a college/medical school in Pakistan.

I have also taught at Aitchison College, where I had to teach according to the prescribed curricula of the government`s board of education. In Aitchison, I did not follow the guidelines or the course material as I considered them to be highly biased and historically flawed. I taught from my old college notes. In this, I had the support of Mr. Shamim Khan, the Principal of Aitchison College. I had talked to Mr. Shamim Khan and told him that Pakistan Studies, as taught were nothing more than unbridled lies, and his reply was: teach them the real history!

In LAS, I force the students to think critically and to review the history of Pakistan through unblinkered prism. Haroon Shaikh is one of my students and I am sure that he will attest to the fact that I spare no one or any institution in my class. There have been times, when Haroon was kind enough to warn me that I was moving beyond ``too many danger lines``. I do not teach the mullah/whabbi course and in fact, most of my students are very uncomfortable with my questions and comments on Pakistan.

I think that if real history were to be taught, there would be a lot of people in India and Pakistan, who would get very uncomfortable. In my humble opinion, instead of teaching the reality of the past in India and Pakistan, we teach them the offical mythology, which we call as history; but it is not history. It is a highly skilled revisionism of facts mixed with distortions to create a perception, which is more fiction than it is factual in its over instructional values.

Ciao

Great , err...but wan`t it Jinnah who said that the two nations exist in every colony and the backyards ........does it not all depend upon how you perceive tha man sitting next to you to be ????....I can see that this Jinnah view of TNT is finally getting detoxified from the PAkistani psyche.................

Jinnah only said it after major Hindu leaders had been saying it for ages. Have you asked yourself why a politician, who bitterly opposed separate electorates and was for most of his life the staunchest advocate of Hindu Muslim unity, all of sudden in the 67th year of his life transform into a TNTist? TNT didn`t start with Jinnah... it predated Jinnah by 2 centuries ... starting with Ram Mohan Roy and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan (the positive TNTists) and Lala Lajpat Rai, the first leader to articulate the idea of Pakistan... right here in Lahore. However Jinnah certainly ended it with his famous speech.

In any event, the idea of TNT was to achieve an equipoise in an all India centre and not separation/partition. Pakistan as it was formed was a clear negation of the tnt ... or atleast TNT became irrelevant after its formation.

As I I Chundrigar famously said and Jinnah agreed the Lahore resolution aimed at achieving a constitutional compromise to weld the two nations in governance of their common motherland India.

Reality should be taught... TNT or any other theory has a time and a place... and like all ideas it is an imagined existence. Only Indians seem to be obsessed in disproving a theory that is largely irrelevant when Pakistan has non-muslims and India has muslims (hence Jinnah`s 11th August speech).

-YLH

``...TNT or any other theory has a time and a place... and like all ideas it is an imagined existence...............``

This is exactly what my thesis is....and you also endorse it ..the man sitting next to you suddenly becomes a welcome guest the moment this madness called TNT disappears in thin air.............the next door enemy suddenly becomes a long lost relative..............this is exactly what I mean by detoxification from Paki psyche........

Please read the post again.... I don`t endorse your thesis. What I endorse is that you are the other (Indian) side of the same coin .... i.e. teaching nationalist mythology in place of history

As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them.

One of my Gujerati friends told me that Indians are not as nice towards Pakistani ppl as we are to Indians, and she also told me to be careful if i went to India.

But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education?

It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!!

I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.

They need to be educated on us, and our country, otherwise they will continue to deal with us with their skewed stereotypes. It is important that this education takes place sooner, as our dealings with them are now increasing.

We have kept oursleves a closed country from the outside world for too long. We need to open up and they need to see and learn.

Ally

Have you talked to Pakistanis in Bradford, Birmingham or London what they think of Indians? Its not very nice, especially amongst the Jihadi-Israel-Hating-America-Must-Burn young generation. There might be a residual affection in the older generations, and one or two hippie Pakistanis like yourself, but hatred of India runs deep and is a central part of the Pakistani identity, religious and national hatred combined.

Of course this hatred is easily transferrable to other groups. At the momnt what has Pakistanis in Britain clenching their buttocks with rage is Israel and the Jews. Your community even sent a couple of their boys over there to blow themselves and take a few Zionist b@stard nightclub teenagers with them.

Whatever Indians feel towards Pakistan is one thing, criticise it all you like, but dont come with the nonsense about Pakistanis being a race of higher beings without malice or indoctrination. Its so ridiculous and foolish.

The reason why most Indians dont know anything about Pakistan is because Pakistan has nothing to offer them. Nobody is obliged to know anything about anybody. And knowledge wont reduce the hatred. It is not unusual in Pakistani infested mela`s in Britain to see Pakistani boys chanting anti-India slogans, throwing things at the Sikh and Hindu musicians on stage, dreaming of blowing themselves up in a temple or synagogue, all the while swapping Bollywood ringtones and acting like buffoons. No Vaisakhi or Diwali mela takes place in Britain without a customary quota of Pakistani hooligans who arrive to make trouble. There is something which ails them. A deep mental disturbance and inferiority complex perhaps. Do you have any idea what it could be? Recently, police in Southall ordered that any Pakistanis caught with the Pakistan flag during Eid celebrations there would have it confiscated or be arrested. The reason for this was that Pakistani boys would taunt, harass and provoke Indians in Southall, make it their mission to do so, and every year it leads to fights and violence.

You do not see Sikhs or Hindus going to Muslim areas on Diwali or Vaisakhi with Indian flags, or Jewish people waving the Israel flag in Pakistani faces during Channukah. So I think it is plain that the hatred you see in Indians is amply reciprocated by your brothers and sisters, with extra added vehemence and spice. Stop acting like Pollyana.

Re: # 22

Are you by any chance related to the Dutch man TheoVanGogh who was murdered last year or is this psuedo name?

Kamath

What a question.

Theo,

In my post i wasn`t talking about South Asian ppl living abroad. I am talking about Indian ppl in India. You say,

``The reason why most Indians dont know anything about Pakistan is because Pakistan has nothing to offer them. Nobody is obliged to know anything about anybody. And knowledge wont reduce the hatred``

If Pakistan has nothing to offer then why are your leaders in our country talking about trade and pipelines?

You are correct no one is obliged to know anything about anyone, however, by knowing others you understand them and realise they are humans just like you, if you decide to hate them it will be for your own reasons, and not reasons told to you by others.

I have not said that we do not have malice and indoctrination, i am saying that from my personal interactions with indians from india and reading chowk interactors, to me it appears that indians are less interested in us as we are in them, and that their is more dislike in them for us than there is in us for them.

Regarding South Asian ppl in the UK. Young men can be hooligans be they Hindu Sikh Muslim or whatever, they are not representative of a community. Sikh and Hindu boys are not so innoccent, go up to Birmingham and the midlands!

I am not here to get into an argument/name calling about who is better etc. I had to say what i had to say to my (Pakistani) people.

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 20

Whatever!!! You know my reaction to that!!

feroz joon,

this was nice. i suspect the ``humanity`` aspect of this will go and has gone largely ignored, comme d`habitude. :)

we humans could also long to return to the place of our birth and our childhood in later years because quite ``simply`` that is part of who we are. something that some of us have denied for whatever reason but perhaps need to rectify to make us ``complete`` again, who knows? and who knows really why or what was behind aiyar sahib wanting to visit the mansions. i do know that unblemished bliss and carefree joy have not been part of everyone`s childhood.

but to pick on something else in this article, yaar, have you forgotten your french? what is this rite d`passage? ye koi naya istyle hai kya?! now remember: the ``de`` is only contracted to ``d``` before vowels, and silent consonants before the vowel, comme ``d`habitude.``

feel free to correct my urdu next time. LOL. i will probably never get the gender thing right. thank goodness for farsi and its absence of grammatical gender!

will teach french for food!
love,
ana

Very interesting read Feroze!

Basic human nature does certainly transcend all political and geographical confinements.

[It seems that all the tensions are on the official level and when it comes to common people, there is only a wish to be friendly with one another.]

haven`t socialised with many people from across the border as yet, but provided th interations here, i am forced to doubt this statement. Or is it that everybody here is an `official`?

p.s. I hardly miss any of your i-logs, and must say, they are a lot more coherent and grammatically and linguistically flawless as compared to this article. Did you write this piece upon returning home straight after that exhausting day? :)

Hi Feroz:

Where do you get all this energy, yaar?

Nice article. Really liked this:
``It takes one of such moments to realize the hollowness of all we take for granted and all we claim to fight for, because in the end, what matters is not the principles of state sovereignty but the indivisibility of humanity, which is based on kindness and love and care for another human being.``

It is heartening to know that Indian and Pakistani diplomats get along so well with each other. Now, if only they could take some of that bonhomie into the negotiating table, things would be a lot better!

Feroz:
It was a delight to read your article!
For the first time I found that you are stationed in Lahore. It was so assuring because I thought that you are a harmonized Pakistani in America. Now I know that there is indeed a champpion of decency right there in Pakistan!
I am a son of a History Professor from Allahabad University, and though probably you are not older than me, you reminded me of his sensibilities.

**** Pakistani leaders were born in India and Indian leaders were born in Pakistan! ****
Let us hope that we will be able to utilize the momentum towards the development of friendship and brotherhood than can be dimly glimpsed at this moment between India and Pakistan.

**** I was wondering all throughout the dinner, was there a reason that the our governments had created this particular climate, because deep down in their hearts they must realize fully well what would happen if the goodness of the people is allowed to express itself freely? ****
Yes, we were fooled by the clever Westerners who wanted to make sure that the resurgent India (= South Asia) that would emerge would not be a serious leader and rival to the so called ``advanced politico-cultural complex`` of theirs. They could not in 1947 foresee the collapse of an alternative to them, viz. Soviet Union and could not take a chance to have to contend with another alternative, not only to their ideology but also a way of life that would put them in position to learn from another culture. Thus, they exacerbated the diffuse differences between South Asian Hindus and Muslims which were practically resolvable within the deemed democratic framework to the extent that the partition became unavoidable.
Finally, we have to learn from the West to be skeptic of our Governments because, remember, all governments are a facade for the vested intesests within any nation.

feroz:

have you read his `confessions of a secular fundamenalist?`

IS THIS THE SAME YASSER AS MANTO WALA YASSER?

EH HAR JAGA GHUSSYA HOYA HAI.

re: temporal # 31

No sir, I have not had the pleasure of reading it. In fact, there is a small tower of books, leaning carelessly, which I hope to read this summer.

re: Inquirer # 30

Thanks for your comments. I have been living in Lahore for the last few years. I think that you are being overly generous, but I am honored to think that I, a poor fool, might have something in common with a learned and educated person, such as a professor of history from Allahabad University.

re: Dost-Mittar # 29

It was not a question of finding the energy, but it was the question of being faithful. My mother has a deep attachement to Lakshmi Mansions and it is her wish to preserve this place as a historic site. I simply was fulfilling my filial duty towards her wish by trying to highlight the case of Lakshmi Mansions and make into a historic site. Some of the best memories of my childhood are associated with this place and I think, in a manner of speaking, preserving Lakshmi Mansions is also the same as preserving the innocence of my childhood days.

re: shobig_sifar # 28

Thank you for your comments on my i-ilogs. Yes; this article was written after a very long day and in fact, it started out as an i-log entry. :)

Ciao

Re: # 29 DM
//....It is heartening to know that Indian and Pakistani diplomats get along so well with each other. ...//

We have seen all this before - this so-called bonhomie and mushy-gushy bullsh!t has been repeated so many times - and every time they have ended in disaster for India. This time would be no different - this time it would be the biggest disaster in history of india.

There is lot of wishful assumptions flying around. That`s problem with pinheads from delhi. They don`t cover their bases as they are supposed to. With passport-less travel introduced by moron from delhi - the stage is set for a big mis-chief by islamic freaks.

re: Manto # 18

TNT certainly wasn`t born with Jinnah but why would Raja Ram Mohan Roy be called any sort of TNTist?


re: ally # 22

Your last line is on the money. The act of closure never does a community/nation any good.

IMHO, Indians` attitudes toward Pakistanis are shaped more by the very close identification Indians have come to form with the Indian state, not by their Romilla Thapar education.

ally #21, # 25

`` As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them. ``

I do not know whether generalizations work

`` But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education? ``

Since you are so knowledgeable about Indian education system there is no one single education system in India. There are multiple systems - practically at least one for each state.

`` It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!! ``

The last time I checked only 1-2 million Pakistanis studied in the madrasas. Majority of Pakistanis study in non-religious schools.

`` I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted. ``

What is wrong about Amerika and Ingland ? They have been productive and hospitable countries to allow 3 million Indians and 1 million Pakistanis to lead good lives.

I have fairly decent knowledge of Pakistani politics, military and geography. I cannot speak for others.

`` If Pakistan has nothing to offer then why are your leaders in our country talking about trade and pipelines? ``

How much oil has flown through the pipelines ? How much trade has there been ?

`` I have not said that we do not have malice and indoctrination, i am saying that from my personal interactions with indians from india and reading chowk interactors, to me it appears that indians are less interested in us as we are in them, and that their is more dislike in them for us than there is in us for them. ``

Pakistanis have a bigger vested interest in how India evolves than the other way around.
It is as simple as that. I do not expect too many Pakistanis to be proficient on India given the size and diversity of India.

`` Regarding South Asian ppl in the UK. Young men can be hooligans be they Hindu Sikh Muslim or whatever, they are not representative of a community. Sikh and Hindu boys are not so innoccent, go up to Birmingham and the midlands! ``

Most of the hooligan behavior, forced marriages in UK are attributed to Pakistani/Kashmiri Muslims. There are a small percentage that is attributed to Hindus/Sikhs. You can normalize the offending samples to the size of the respective populations.

Re: # 16
re: ferozk:

While this is a really nice India-Pak piece, your comment refers to what I would believe would be a nicer one. There`s very little as critical or as fascinating as the turbulent boundary between a decade and a half of indoctrination and the first critical thoughts of a sentient human being.

How did you teach your courses (the ones from your college notes) ? Have you had arguments/discussions with students ? Intelligent ones who are firm in their beliefs ? What are the problems you have faced ? Were you ever forced to defend ideas or principles that you were not sure of yourself ? What was the experience like ?

Stud this narrative with examples, sprinkle with accounts of food, life and powercuts and it could turn out to be a very very interesting text indeed.

cheers,

A_S

Re: # 21
re: ally:

///As nice as this article maybe, from my experiences of interacting with some Indian people, and also reading some posts on Chowk, it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them.///

Many massive generalisations to follow...

I call this India tumescent or India erect. Drunk on the gyrations of the SENSEX, throbbing wetly in synchrony with the reported foreign exchange reserves, overly proud of the consumer choice in hatchbacks, strutting to be thought of as the country associated with outsourcing, frustrated by the sheer mass of stubbornly poor people, so removed from them as to posit cruel, inhumane and simplistic solutions to their problems, envious of China while childishly gleeful that India is doing relatively well while Pakistan is not and filled with a sense of having left their country behind, the diasporic Indian professional marinates himself in an imagined sense of what the desh and what the religion actually is.

Be gracious in their success ? What would be the point of that ? You`ve got to flaunt your croc-skin wallet otherwise who`ll know you from any TPLAC [1] ?

Certainly on this board I estimate that the majority of hateful comments come from the Indians (bring on the flames). This is in direct contrast to the vast majority of Indians I *know*, most of whom would never use Chowk. So, as in many other things, what you see of the public Indian image is often at variance with reality. Oh, and I don`t mean to say that the poor Pakistanis on this form are as mild as buttermilk and as sweet as rasmalai.

///One of my Gujerati friends told me that Indians are not as nice towards Pakistani ppl as we are to Indians, and she also told me to be careful if i went to India.///

*shrug* I was concerned when my friend visited Pakistan. Your friend has a right to their opinion.

///But still many posters here go on and on and on about the mullah education system etc in Pakistan, and indeed we do have it. But what of the `secular` Indian education?///

I think a madrassah education would be quite dehumanising, I`ve a thing against dogma. From what I`ve seen, Indians tend to be more accepting of differentness than Pakistanis. That`s the consequence of having to deal with thousands of languages, cultures, food habits, social mores etc. There are attacks on this tolerance, but I have substantial faith in it`s resilience. Say what you will but I`m glad that I never studied Indian Studies. And I think religion in education is a bad idea. As commonly propagated today, it tends to rot the critical faculties.

///It seems that the mullah system has created less hatred and venom than their `secular` one. or is it just that we are nicer ppl, Allah hee jaaney!!!///

Desis, Indian and Pakistanis love to strut. Truth. Just read the editorials / comments / messages (``Crush India!`` ?? 8-D ) in Pakistani newspapers when it looked like India was at a disadvantage in the Kargil war. Oh how the Hamid Guls came out of the woodwork then ;)

///I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country,///

I agree completely. I think it was romair who said (correct me if I get the name / substance wrong) that the most advantageous measure that Pakistan could take to win people over to consider it`s point of view would be to vigorously and unilaterally relax visa restrictions. Let those with disposable incomes drive down to Lahore and they`ll come back and rave about Food Street.. and the awesome deals on DVDs they got. And the people who were ``just like them``. And they`ll spread the word. And before you know it, Indians from Tamil Nadu to Tripura will, on a whim, drive over the border to a country they`ve heard so much about yet know so very little.

More than anything, let journalists roam with little or no restrictions, and a horde of travel writers will descend on out-of-the-way places in Pakistan - followed, visa, facilities and security permitting, by greater hordes of tourists. Don`t be a stranger. And watch the horns melt away from the imaginations.

/// and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.///

What do you expect? At least you`re lucky enough to see glimpses of India from TV and pirated movies (however flawed they might be). Indian mental constructions of Pakistan only have the Indian and international media to draw from. And like all media, they have their biases too.

///They need to be educated on us, and our country, otherwise they will continue to deal with us with their skewed stereotypes. It is important that this education takes place sooner, as our dealings with them are now increasing.///

Yaar, class mein thodi padhaoge ? Khud aa ke dekhenge to man mein kuch baithega.

///We have kept oursleves a closed country from the outside world for too long. We need to open up and they need to see and learn.///

True.

Cheers,
A_S
[1] http://www.yes-minister.com/otherterms.htm

re: A_S # 38

That`s actually quite fair. :)

Aha_Snark # 38

`` I think a madrassah education would be quite dehumanising, I`ve a thing against dogma. From what I`ve seen, Indians tend to be more accepting of differentness than Pakistanis. That`s the consequence of having to deal with thousands of languages, cultures, food habits, social mores etc. There are attacks on this tolerance, but I have substantial faith in it`s resilience. Say what you will but I`m glad that I never studied Indian Studies. And I think religion in education is a bad idea. As commonly propagated today, it tends to rot the critical faculties.``

There is nothing wrong with a religious education if teaches proper values and if it emphaises balance and moderation.

There are innumerable Jesuit priests educated in Catholic schools who do a fine job of serving the downtrodden.

The real problem is with the Pakistani madrassah education and the overall mindset/ atmosphere in Pakistan.

As the Advani saga unfolds, the pipeline saga moves ahead.....or is it???......India is now going to supply diesel to Pakistan.......what next??....

Musharraf sets date for pipeline work
Source: IANS. Image Source: IS


Islamabad, June 7: President Pervez Musharraf wants work on the proposed $4 billion (Rs.174 billion) Iran-Pakistan-India natural gas pipeline to begin by next year and guarantees the security of the stretch passing through this country.

Musharraf`s comments came when visiting Indian Petroleum Minister Mani Shankar Aiyar called on him here Tuesday to discuss the project.

``It`s our earnest desire to finalize matters (relating to the) pipeline,`` Online news agency quoted Musharraf as saying.

Musharraf said the modalities of the project should be finalized at the earliest so that work on it could start by next year.

He assured the Indian minister that the stretch of pipeline passing through Pakistan would be fully protected.

He brushed aside concerns by the US on the pipeline, saying ``there is nothing for anyone to worry about the project. The project will not be abandoned.``

He said Islamabad would welcome India participating in pipeline projects from Turkmenistan and Qatar.

The president said the Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline was in the interest of the three countries since it would generate huge economic activities.

It would also contribute to ongoing efforts for reducing poverty, creating more jobs and improving the quality of life in the region, the president said.

Sources said the Indian offer of supplying 325,000 tonnes of diesel at concessional rates also came up for discussion in the meeting.

Aiyar updated the president on his two-day talks with his Pakistani counterpart Amanullah Jadoon on the pipeline project and said both the countries had agreed to start work on it soon.

According to him, New Delhi and Islamabad would negotiate with Tehran for finalizing the project`s technical, financial and legal specifications.

#38 by Aha_Snark on June 7, 2005 1:37pm PT


Certainly on this board I estimate that the majority of hateful comments come from the Indians (bring on the flames)


In my years of reading and posting to chowk, hardly any Pakistani has admitted to supporting the Islamic terrorists in Kashmir or to supporting the taliban or to supporting Osama Bin Laden...That doesn`t automatically mean Pakis don`t do all that...

As an analogy, just cos your parents don`t wear bellbottoms today, it doesn`t mean they didn`t wear them in the 70s...It`s just that bellbottoms fell out of fashion...

with pakis, jihad(or openly admitting to supporting jihad) went out of fashion after 9/11, thanks in no small part to trailer park lynndie and the not-so-fun prospect of getting sent to gitmo....

#21 by ally on June 7, 2005 3:32am PT
[``it seems that the Indians are a lot more vindictive, negative, and full of a lot more hatred towards Pakistan than we are of them.``]

Bravo Bravo!!

This is one of the reasons I love chowk so much...... a great educator of younger Pakistanis.... who in their naivety (or just because they are good guys with a positive outlook on life), believe in some bhai bhai, punjabi pra, jutt-jaat blood ties or other such BS coming from across the border.

Chowk, the great teacher, tears away the mask and shows us the true ugly faces of the shridhars and the arjuns! Chowk, the great teacher, teaches us ``Pakistan ka matlab kya``.... which is really nothing but save yourselves and your families from these hate filled, vile, vindictive people..... a lesson which the people in gujurat (for example) have learnt after paying with life, blood, ripped uteruses and burnt un-born babies.... chowk, the great teacher, teaches us this lesson for free.

Advani ji ne jo kuchh kaha...ussko le kar barhi ghalatfelhmi paida ki ja rahi haii... Advani ji ne uss Jinnah ki baat kahi thi jo sawatantra ke liye larhta tha,rashtarvaadi tha mazazhab ke adhaar par koi bhed-bhaav nahi karta tha.....Jinnah Pakistan ke...*** the....yeh theek hai ke pakistan ban`ne ke baad bhi unki isha thi ke aik mila julla rajaya ho..phir unke sathiyoN ne unki baat nahi maani......aur Jinnah ne iss baat par zor nahi diya.

---

Above was said by ABV in news I caught today.

wrong forum for my post.

chowk doesn`t teach us how to generalize, and be vindictive. we learn that all on our own.

Feroz,

Thanks for the `Yasser and Aisha` rather than the `Yasser and his wife.` Aisha and her husband is another combination you can try for the sake of affirmative action.

So after the event, when we took Harish`s friend and her friend, Lola Nayer out shopping, they went on and on about how amazing Lahore was. I told them about wanting to quote what they said to Veeresh the Lahore-hater, and here is what they said: ``stop with the comparing, kya yaar Lahrore-Dehli karrahi ho, you are insulting Lahore now. Dehli is so dirty.``

A more worthy quote.

Aisha Sarwari

Ref ally #21

[I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.]

Well, our students want to go to the US, UK, Singapore, Australia or even New Zealand for higher studies. As far as Advanced Quranic Studies 302, I think Deoband can offer a better course than any madrassah in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan or Maldives so there is no rush in India to learn about Pakistan. Anytime LUMS comes up to the standards of IIM and its graduates get a starting salary of Rs. 1 crore per annum as IIM`s top student did, you can expect Indian students considering the possibility of attending Pak universities. In the meantime, they are applying even to Rutgers.

re: ana, ali, ally

I suspect that ally is somewhat right. Pakistanis who are not fired up with religious fervor may not feel as negatively about Indians as average Indians do about Pakistanis.

Why should such a difference exist? Tomorrow, I will give one possible answer.

G`night all.

Ref bbabu #36

[ally #21, # 25

Since you are so knowledgeable about Indian education system there is no one single education system in India. There are multiple systems - practically at least one for each state.]

The results just came out in Tamil Nadu and my head is spinning!

There is the CBSE (Central Board of Secondary Education) and the State Board. For the hoity-toity, there is the Cambridge Examination Syndicate or the American International School in Chennai. Then there is the Matriculation examination and the Secondary School Leaving Certificate (SSLC). Then you have got the Anglo-Indian stream and the Oriental Stream, the latter of which offers Arabic as a language.

No madrassahs, at least in the South though! Any madrassah/Quran Studies program is optional and in the evenings.

Ref Aha_Snark #38

[...Say what you will but I`m glad that I never studied Indian Studies. And I think religion in education is a bad idea. As commonly propagated today, it tends to rot the critical faculties.]

Oh yes, you did! All those history books coming out of Romila Thapar`s and KN Panikkar`s arse at JNU is Indian Studies.

Didn`t you learn how lovey-dovey the Islamic Sultans were towards their Hindu subjects?

That is Nehru`s way of keeping the peace on the subcontinent.

re: aisha_sarwari # 47

I will try to remember the politically correct version of the affirmative action, as suggested by you! lol

Aisha, thank you so much for bringing up the Lahore-New Delhi comparsion! lol ;)

re: Aha_Snark # 38

I did not have any problems, though some of the students were a trival uneasy when some of the most popular myths were being riddled with questions.

Pakistan history, as it is taught is so filled with contradictions that one only has to only raise the discrepencies to show the subject`s shallowness. At first, the student did not believe me and after I had periodically challenged them to defend their views, by asking them to justify the basis of their knowledge, they would admit to the doubt that they might be wrong. In fact, at Aitchison College, I had to de-construct the history of Pakistan since 1947 and then re-construct it. I always tell my students that I do mind them disagreeing with me, but they better have solid reasons to justify their disagreements and cannot just disagree with me for the sake of patriotism.

In Aitchison College, teachers who teach a critical version of history are known as ``anti- Pakistan`` and I was called that; by some of my students and a few of my co-workers. In fact, I have learned that one needs to be very aggressive in the defense of the truth and I would be verging on the point of rudeness in my discussion with my co-workers. There was a lot of gossiping and rumor mongering going at Aitchison behind my back and finally, I had to confront the purveyors of disinformation and present them with an option. I told them that if they wanted to call me names, I would much rather prefer that they called me names to my face, because then I would have a much greater respect for them. I also told them that I have a very poor opinion of people, who talk behind a person`s back especially when that particular individual is not present to defend his/her views.

In fact, the first lesson I teach my students in Pakistan history is by asking them the question, who created Pakistan? The answer is always Jinnah and I inform them, every time, that it is the wrong answer because Pakistan was created by Nehru, Sardar Patel and Gandhi and by the Congress Party. :)

In Lahore American School, though I have not been called an ``anti-Pakistan``, I think that most of students think that I am a pagan, because I force them to reconcile their views on Islam, with life style choices. Whereas, I had to de-construct history at Aitchison College, I had to force the students to confront the dilemma posed in the Pakistani society and which is; that there is a huge gulf between what is claimed in a religious sense and what is preached as Islam.

Parenthetically speaking, recently I am also seeing this trend in the Indian new media over the resignation of L. K. Advani. In India, it seems that there is an offical history, which is at variance with the actual history and anyone, who attempts to suggest so is hounded by the ``moral guardians of the past``. In fact, what Advani said is not new. I am certain that the next victim of the Indian media feeding frenzy will George Fernades. I was reading The News and there was an article in on Advani and in which Fernades is quoted as saying and I quote, `` Jinnah was a secular person till 1935 but the behavior of then Congress leader Jawahar Lal Nehru forced him to fight for a seperate nation``.

To me, it does not matter that the Indian post 1947 history does not hold high opinion of Jinnah, but what is even more amusing is that, to the best of my knowledge, no Indian historian has asked what made Jinnah demand a seperate nation? I have no qualms about the Indians hating Jinnah for his TNT ideas, but it should be instructive to learn, what made Jinnah turn his back on All India Congress Party? The hounding of Advani and maybe, Fernandes, suggests that India is also not ready to confront the past honestly and it too exists in a bubble of its own mythology. The whole Advani episode is a storm in a tea cup and it is really funny also, because it seems that political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions because of the intolerance of their constituencies! lol :)

Ciao

Re: # 52

``The whole Advani episode is a storm in a tea cup and it is really funny also, because it seems that political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions because of the intolerance of their constituencies! ``

Feroz,

He did not go there in personal capacity. He went to Pakistan on the invitation of Pakistani president, which was extended to leader of opposition of India and not L.K. Advani, the individual. The leader of opposition is equal in rank to a cabinet minister in the ruling dispensation and is accorded all the privileges thereby. The privileges (or perks as we call them colloquially) are not extended in isolation. The underlying assumption is that individuals will air their `personal` opinion in personal meetings and follow the mandated protocol during public appearances.

Nobody gives a flip to what Mr. Advani thinks when he sits in his library, what matters is his public persona. Jinnah, Advani, Vajpayee and Savarkar all are/were atheists or not too religious people. Yet, they built their political careers by playing the religion card. There was a clear dichotomy in their personal and political beliefs. Yet, nobody raised a hue and cry about this. Why? Because they are known to people by what they say in public and not by private musings.

Personally, I feel the current controversy is a manifestation of symbolic nature of politics in our countries. We are emotional people who easily get swayed by empty sloganeering and inconsequential tokenism. What difference does it make to anybody`s life if Jinnah or Gandhiji who died aeons ago, were communalist or secularist. But the hysterical reactions convey otherwise. Interestingly, I`ve never seen anyone labelled `traitor`, statements from people across the spectrum and such media frenzy when a company which employs thousands of people is closed down, or when a bridge or highway is delayed. We are a nation of fools, and we deserve the leaders that we have.

BTW, article was a good read. I particularly liked this:
``It seems, from hearing the conversations that Saturday night, that we humans have a desire; a wish and a longing to revisit our places of birth and reconfirm the memories of our childhood. I am not sure, what is the real reason behind this impulse. Maybe, as we grow old and are forced to make compromises, we hark back to the memories of our childhood, because it was a period of unblemished bliss and innocence and it was a time of a carefree joy, which we all miss as we grow older and are burdened by the injustices of life. `` and your post #16 on the way History is taught in our region.

#52 by ferozk on June 8, 2005 5:01am PT


The whole Advani episode is a storm in a tea cup and it is really funny also, because it seems that political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions because of the intolerance of their constituencies!


That`s just silly...They can express their opinion all they want..In case you hadn`t read(you probably did but chose to ignore it), he resigned on his own volition...It would be a knock on Indian democracy if the government had forced him to resign...He is free to say what he wants and his party is free to kick him out if it wants...

My take on this...the whole thing is moot really...

Now the BJP leadership has refused to accept his resignation and advani will now decide whether he`ll continue..yup...advani now decides...

52/feroz
//...to the best of my knowledge, no Indian historian has asked what made Jinnah demand a seperate nation?....//

For a self-proclaimed history teacher - you don`t seem to possess that much knowledge, do you?

Almost all history texts india mention the dispute between congress and jinnah which led to his TNT and his communal politics. Of course, the books are critical of jinnah and his communal politics [ and rightly so] but not that critical. See - the history texts in india, as a rule, never go too critical on any muslim personality - not even the invaders ... because that may upset the secularism apple-cart.

So most people know about why jinnah did what he did. But see - unlike pakis, we don`t believe in ``devil made me do it`` theories. Just because Jinnah had a dispute with congress, doesn`t justify his communalism, vitriol, demonization of hindus and general islamo-fascism that he professed. just because you had a quarrel with your wife, doesn`t mean that you would suddenly become gay.

Jinnah`s actions are his alone and cannot be explained away with ``congress made me do it``.

++++

//..The hounding of Advani and maybe, Fernandes, suggests that India is also not ready to confront the past...//

The so called ``hounding`` is from congress, commies, and other assorted freaks[call themselves ``seculars``] who don`t know jack from their a$$es. And mostly because- advani seem to be on verge of redefining ``secularism`` iself and in the process, would pull the rug from under their feet.

Indians in general know their history and their past - there is nothing hidden to ``confront``. Indians know what jinnah was and what he did and why did. Like I said - that in no way justifies his actions. But people , in retrospect, generally accept that what happened is for the best - except for the bloodshed.

And please curb your paki tendency to throw stupid hyperboles like ``...political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions`` - that`s just bullsh!t. The whole discussion here is because advani expressed his opinion and is standing by it.

everyone always has an answer for everything, don`t they?!

mohar, no, jinnah`s actions were not completely jinnah`s alone, he wasn`t like in a vacuum you know. . . and yes, they cannot simply or completely be explained away by the actions of AINC. :)

there are enough boards going on and on about jinnah. i guess we are all ``doomed`` to dig him out of that beautiful mausoleum. can we please leave gandhiji and jinnah sahib to rest in whatever state of soul they are resting in, and go on with our lives?! i suspect the answer will be (looking at the 8 ball). . . .

#55 by mohar11 on June 8, 2005 7:28am PT


Indians in general know their history and their past -


First they`ll accuse Indians of not knowing enough about Pakistan...Then when Indians actually post what they know about Pakistan, like it`s support for Islamic fundamentalism/terrorism, it`s secterian conflicts, the joke that is it`s stock market(all true and all backed by links), you`ll be accused of being an anti-pakiland bigot....

maybe google can create a special search engine for pakiland.. pakiland.google.com.. searches on this domain will only return positive news about Pakiland...searching for Pakistan +``support for the taliban`` will return a no results found..

Maybe the new google India research ctr can work on this...

Ferozk

Indian history is as fraudulent as Pakistani history. It`s been made to order to support a distorted Nehruvian vision of the world.

India`s JNU propaganda-as-history discipline does not ask uncomfortable questions. It determinedly avoids vast areas of Indian life like the Great white Pope (we must hope) avoids pornography.

Fringe leaders of the VHP, or even the BJP, are understandably unlettered. But notice how JNU liberals and communists - the ever-obstreperous, self-deified `friends of Pakistan,` have reacted to the idea that there might have been shades to Jinnah`s character with howls of complete and unrestrained horror.

# 48 Harimau

I personally have no malice towards your country or people, and if your students want to go to whichever country for further studies, then best wishes to them, may they be successful in their studies. You can trumpet your countries successes to me all you want, and in reply all I will say is MashAllah, long may it continue. Just as I would to students/successes of any other third country.

In the long run your country’s success will benefit my country. But my post isn’t about students knowing information about Pakistan, it was directed more towards the general population of India having a general idea about Pakistan. Basically the general kind of information that most culturally similar neighbouring countries have about each other.

People in Spain know that Italy has some great fashion, they often wear it. But they also know that not everyone in Italy is a fashionista. They have a general idea about Italy and Italian life, and vice versa. People in Italy know that Almodovar makes fab films, at the same time they also know that not all Spaniards live in an Almodovar film.

Many people in India still think that everyone in Pakistan wears a sherwani, speaks fluent Urdu, and says ‘Adab arz’ when greeting each other (Veer Zaara anyone!!!). Even my Punjabi Indian friends were surprised to hear that I spoke Punjabi, and in Canada some Asian ppl at work thought I was Sikh!

The fact of the matter is, now, our govt’s are beginning to work together, not because of pyaar mohabet, but because we have to, we need to, for pure economics. Your country’s success cannot be maintained without fulfilling your ever increasing energy needs. It’s your govt that wants to start construction of these pipelines etc within 6 months. Recently, Indian businessmen visited Pakistan in a big delegation, (100 or so) they invest all over the world and have expressed a desire to invest in Pakistan. Not because they love their cousins to the west, but because they are going to make money, moola, rokRa, rupaiyah!

And that is the bottom line. Money, is what it’s all about. The juppi brigade can juppi pa all they want, but it’s not their love that’s driving this, its big business. Those students will come back to India and deal with some of our students who also went there (haN haN, humarey log bhi udher jaatey haiN!) so we will have an expanding business relationship.

But those students will not know much about Pakistan other than the Veer Zaara type info they have been fed. And for us in Pakistan, that’s not so good. If we are to get more business from the east, we need to ensure that those people have a positive view of us, or at least know a little about our roz maara ki reality. For the most part they will be pleasantly surprised!

re: mohar11 # 55

My historic background is in European history and I will be the first one to admit that I am always learning about the Indo-Pak history through interacts such as these on Chowk.

I was surprised to learn that Indian texts are not critical of Muslim personalities and as a student of history, I do not agree with this logic. Historic analysis should ``cut to the bone`` of the issues and the personalities involved and no justice is, or will, ever be done by treating the past with gloved explanations. As Ana rightfully said, Jinnah and his politics did not exist in isolationism; Jinnah was reacting to the events and political debates/issues of his time. I am one of those people, who hold the view that history is accidental and it happens as a result of petty mistakes made by great women and men, who are at reacting to their environment instead being pro-active in influencing their political environment.

As to communalism and demonization of Hindus, would you agree or disagree that same was happening to the Muslims in the pre-1947 Indian politics? This demonization is still occuring as seen in the debates on Chowk and in the coverage, which dominates both of our news media and in the levels of distrust we all share about the other`s motives and intentions, while we hold ourselves and our intentions as noble and beyond the pale of question. Jinnah`s actions were not his alone and they had a stimulus, which was the politics of his time.

Nothing ever happens in isolationism; there is always a ``trigger`` to events. Otherwise, it would be like suggesting that the First World War was simply the result of the German attack on France. It would akin to suggesting that the Indian War of Independence of 1857 happened due to the instance of cartridges issued to the sepoys of the East India Company. There is always an immediate event and then, there are always long term consquences, which create a situation, whose consequences is the evolutionary process known as history.

As to my hyperbole, I will stand by it. It might be hyperbole to you, but it is a legitimate question to me. :)

re: arjun_m # 54

Arjun, I agree with you that the Indian government did not ask Advani to resign. Advani resigned due to the pressure from within his own political party - BJP. I was under the impression that Indian political parties have a healthy tradition of open debate and tolerance of dissenting views, which are sorely missing from Pakistani political parties and their political discourse.

Was I wrong in that assessment?

My own personal view is that Advani showed a very poor example of judgement. There is an opinion, within the Indian media, that Advani was simply catering to the ``secularists`` in India in hopes to enlarge his own popular support base outside of the BJP and in the process, cast aside the image of the hawk, with which he has been associated in the past. Personally, I think that the occassion of the remarks was a bit surprising and if he had to say them, it would have been better had he said them in India and not in Pakistan, given the emotionalism of political immaturity which exists in our nations.

Ciao

re: rahulmal # 53

I would agree, with your conclusions.

re: kaalchakra # 58

Yes, it would seem that there is a distorted version of history in both the nations and there are people on both sides of the border, who wish to believe this version of history.

Ciao

ally

People like you do a lot to change our opinions of Pakistan. It`s unfair, but real learning about Pakistan is going to be slow, at least among the hard-headed cynics. The love brigade in India has no credibility, being worthy of no respect or attention.

The problem is that for a very long time we have not heard from the common person in Pakistan, unless that common person was frothing at the mouth about Kashmir, or paying us a very unfriendly visit as a Jihadi. Over time, Indian people have learnt to identify the whole of Pakistan with the `proactive` Pakistani military. And it is fair to say that between Pakistani military and Indian people, there is no love lost. People to people contact and reconciliation will be much easier and is already occurring. Pakistan earned an unsavory reputation over many long decades. So please be patient. It will gradually step out of the shadows of that past, as that past is perceived by outsiders.

Re: # 40
re: bbabu:
///There is nothing wrong with a religious education if teaches proper values and if it emphaises balance and moderation.///

I agree completely. Any value based education which emphasises balance and moderation would be worth enough indeed. In my opinion, you will have to look really hard to find a political text as radical as the Isa the Kena and the Katha Upanishads. What they exhort people to do is find the truth for yourself and refuse to accept received wisdom.

My reservations on your statement stem from my belief that in Hinduism at least (the only religion that I can speak of with any degree of confidence) the body of what can be called religious literature / thought is vast and so devoid of any central theme or overriding concept. Furthermore, in closely related or in the same texts, ``virtues`` such as duty, expediency, honesty and subterfuge are promoted equally. If a religious education could spread balance and moderation I`d be all for it

cheers,

A_S

It is really nice to keep the guest happy bcoz this is our tradation. This is islamic as well. We must look after and feel good about having guest from across the border.But just cursing and making fun of ourselves will make them happy, there is a big questin mark on that. Normally wise people avoid those who feel self pitty.
What all that we try to do is in reaction to our friends there. yes we want to be in peace with them.We do respect them as a big nation, bigger democracy and then as our neighbours.
What all that we want from them isthat when somebody from this side is visiting they should also have a big heart( I am refering just one example of cricket)I will not ask any question about Mr Advani that why the poor fallow was forced to resign and still you talk of love flooding in from the common people of both the cpountries. Sir plz look in to this as well.This is food for thought for those who really want friendly relation between both the nation

Re: # 51

re: harimau:

Dear Harimau,

Let`s hope that on this board at least you respond to my queries.

you say:
///Oh yes, you did! All those history books coming out of Romila Thapar`s and KN Panikkar`s arse at JNU is Indian Studies.
Didn`t you learn how lovey-dovey the Islamic Sultans were towards their Hindu subjects?
That is Nehru`s way of keeping the peace on the subcontinent.///

All right. Thapar and Panikkar have nothing valuable to say. Do you have anything to support that proposition other than your pungent assertion?

cheers,
A_S

Re: # 55

re: mohar11:

//The so called ``hounding`` is from congress, commies, and other assorted freaks[call themselves ``seculars``] who don`t know jack from their a$$es.//

Praveen Togadia called him a traitor and called for his resignation. So either your proposition is wrong or Praveen Togadia is A) Congress B) Commie C) Assorted Freak D) All of the above. Which is it ?

Re: # 58
re: kaalchakra:

///But notice how JNU liberals and communists - the ever-obstreperous, self-deified `friends of Pakistan,` have reacted to the idea that there might have been shades to Jinnah`s character with howls of complete and unrestrained horror. ///

This is very intriguing. Can you please provide a link or a reference to such an incident ? Or at the very least, shed some more light on (correct me if I`m wrong) the refusal of ``JNU liberals and communists`` to accept that Jinnah`s character might be stained / flawed?

Re: # 60 feroz
//... was surprised to learn that Indian texts are not critical of Muslim personalities ... Historic analysis should ``cut to the bone`` and no justice .... be done by treating the past with gloved explanations...//

That`s right. But the commie fools who write the text books don`t understand that ..... A lot of people are p!ssed about the ways commies have hijacked history.... but that`s the way it is.

+++

//..As to communalism and demonization of Hindus, would you agree or disagree that same was happening to the Muslims in the pre-1947 Indian politics?...//

I am sure it was happening [at the grass-root level] and it happens even now - this sh!t happens everywhere, all the time. But Jinnah didn`t have to do it. His other contemporaries from congress didn`t demonize anybody, despite their disagreements with him......Jinnah was an educated/experienced leader, he should have known better than that. He had various choices - and he made his choice. He has to own the consequence of his choice - everybody has to.

Yes - there were ``triggers``, there are always triggers. Triggers are just that, triggers - you cannot use them as excuses... Because, even after triggers have been fired, all of us still have many choices to pick from.

I am sure Hitler can claim some ``triggers`` [ I am not saying jinnah=hitler, just giving an example]. Bush can claim triggers for what he did in Iraq. But at the end of the day - 6 mil jews were dead, thousands iraqis dead, hundreds of american soldiers are dead. Triggers, you say?

Re: # 66 aha

Togadia is : C) Assorted Freak

That`s an easy one - I am surprised you couldn`t figure that out yourself.

Re: # 56 ana
//...no, jinnah`s actions were not completely jinnah`s alone, he wasn`t like in a vacuum you know...//

Neither was Hitler, or Modi, or pick your lunatic. ..... I am not saying jinnah = hitler = modi...... Just pointing out the absurdity of claiming triggers/stimulus or whatever, as excuse for your actions.

People have to own up. Modi can`t claim godhra as an excuse for his communal massacre. Neither can Jinnah claim congress as an excuse for his communalism. Like I said - ``devil made me do it`` logic doesn`t work.

re: A_S # 67

JNU liberals and communists have reacted with horror not to the suggestion that Jinnah`s character may have been stained - we see the man as deeply flawed - but to the suggestion that he may have had secular bones within him.

A quick perusal of the the newspapers would easily offer evidence, but would gladly provide it here if you need it.

Re: # 69
re: mohar11:
///Togadia is : C) Assorted Freak
That`s an easy one - I am surprised you couldn`t figure that out yourself.///

Fair enough.

cheers,
A_S

Re: # 71
re: kaalchakra:
///JNU liberals and communists have reacted with horror not to the suggestion that Jinnah`s character may have been stained - we see the man as deeply flawed ///

;) So you`re a JNU liberal / communist ?

///but to the suggestion that he may have had secular bones within him.///

Frankly, that suggestion was imputed to Advani but never made by him. Advani said that Jinnah`s speech was a forceful exposition of a secular state, NOT that Jinnah was secular. The difference is subtle but important.

For example, if avenger123 were to say something that I thought was valuable, I would say (considering the shaky ground I would be and my present opinion on his interacts) ``avenger123`s statement X was valuable.`` I don`t think that can be conflated with the statement ``avenger123 is a valuable speaker/ thinker``. There`s miles to go between the two statements.

Cheers,

A_S

re: A_S # 73

LOL...Actually, I have been a JNU liberal, and worse. That unreasonable individual still lives inside me, and casues me considerable misery at regular intervals. :)

You could be right about what was said. I have just been amused to find Jyoti Basu and Mr. Tagodia showing up on the same platform, and in voluble agreement with each other against Jinnah.

Ref Aha_Snark #65

[All right. Thapar and Panikkar have nothing valuable to say. Do you have anything to support that proposition other than your pungent assertion?]

Romila Thapar has been writing that Hindu kings used to demolish temples of their opponent (Hindu) kings and that this explained the destruction of Hindu temples in North India.

If you buy that line I have a bridge I want to sell you.

Except, as a frikking bleeding-heart liberal enthused over having Asia`s largest slum in Dharavi while not concerned about not having a single city of world class anywhere in India, you wouldn`t have too much money to afford the bridge.

Re: # 16

Mr Feroz

would you do us a favour....
could you please start a Seperate topic.. and de-construct and then re-construct the history , briefly for the benefit of All.
Yes I know... these is a lot of material available... but a brief account of your de-construct and re-contruct will Help...