Old Neighbors And Old Memories

Feroz,

Thanks for the `Yasser and Aisha` rather than the `Yasser and his wife.` Aisha and her husband is another combination you can try for the sake of affirmative action.

So after the event, when we took Harish`s friend and her friend, Lola Nayer out shopping, they went on and on about how amazing Lahore was. I told them about wanting to quote what they said to Veeresh the Lahore-hater, and here is what they said: ``stop with the comparing, kya yaar Lahrore-Dehli karrahi ho, you are insulting Lahore now. Dehli is so dirty.``

A more worthy quote.

Aisha Sarwari

Ref ally #21

[I have said this before and will say it again, Indians have ZIP knowledge about Pakistan and Pakistani ppl, they know more about Amreeka and Inglaind than they do about their neighbours. They have highly skewed stereotypes about us and our country, and their dislike of us seems to be very deep rooted.]

Well, our students want to go to the US, UK, Singapore, Australia or even New Zealand for higher studies. As far as Advanced Quranic Studies 302, I think Deoband can offer a better course than any madrassah in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan or Maldives so there is no rush in India to learn about Pakistan. Anytime LUMS comes up to the standards of IIM and its graduates get a starting salary of Rs. 1 crore per annum as IIM`s top student did, you can expect Indian students considering the possibility of attending Pak universities. In the meantime, they are applying even to Rutgers.

re: ana, ali, ally

I suspect that ally is somewhat right. Pakistanis who are not fired up with religious fervor may not feel as negatively about Indians as average Indians do about Pakistanis.

Why should such a difference exist? Tomorrow, I will give one possible answer.

G`night all.

Ref bbabu #36

[ally #21, # 25

Since you are so knowledgeable about Indian education system there is no one single education system in India. There are multiple systems - practically at least one for each state.]

The results just came out in Tamil Nadu and my head is spinning!

There is the CBSE (Central Board of Secondary Education) and the State Board. For the hoity-toity, there is the Cambridge Examination Syndicate or the American International School in Chennai. Then there is the Matriculation examination and the Secondary School Leaving Certificate (SSLC). Then you have got the Anglo-Indian stream and the Oriental Stream, the latter of which offers Arabic as a language.

No madrassahs, at least in the South though! Any madrassah/Quran Studies program is optional and in the evenings.

Re: # 51

re: harimau:

Dear Harimau,

Let`s hope that on this board at least you respond to my queries.

you say:
///Oh yes, you did! All those history books coming out of Romila Thapar`s and KN Panikkar`s arse at JNU is Indian Studies.
Didn`t you learn how lovey-dovey the Islamic Sultans were towards their Hindu subjects?
That is Nehru`s way of keeping the peace on the subcontinent.///

All right. Thapar and Panikkar have nothing valuable to say. Do you have anything to support that proposition other than your pungent assertion?

cheers,
A_S

Ref Aha_Snark #38

[...Say what you will but I`m glad that I never studied Indian Studies. And I think religion in education is a bad idea. As commonly propagated today, it tends to rot the critical faculties.]

Oh yes, you did! All those history books coming out of Romila Thapar`s and KN Panikkar`s arse at JNU is Indian Studies.

Didn`t you learn how lovey-dovey the Islamic Sultans were towards their Hindu subjects?

That is Nehru`s way of keeping the peace on the subcontinent.

Re: # 52

``The whole Advani episode is a storm in a tea cup and it is really funny also, because it seems that political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions because of the intolerance of their constituencies! ``

Feroz,

He did not go there in personal capacity. He went to Pakistan on the invitation of Pakistani president, which was extended to leader of opposition of India and not L.K. Advani, the individual. The leader of opposition is equal in rank to a cabinet minister in the ruling dispensation and is accorded all the privileges thereby. The privileges (or perks as we call them colloquially) are not extended in isolation. The underlying assumption is that individuals will air their `personal` opinion in personal meetings and follow the mandated protocol during public appearances.

Nobody gives a flip to what Mr. Advani thinks when he sits in his library, what matters is his public persona. Jinnah, Advani, Vajpayee and Savarkar all are/were atheists or not too religious people. Yet, they built their political careers by playing the religion card. There was a clear dichotomy in their personal and political beliefs. Yet, nobody raised a hue and cry about this. Why? Because they are known to people by what they say in public and not by private musings.

Personally, I feel the current controversy is a manifestation of symbolic nature of politics in our countries. We are emotional people who easily get swayed by empty sloganeering and inconsequential tokenism. What difference does it make to anybody`s life if Jinnah or Gandhiji who died aeons ago, were communalist or secularist. But the hysterical reactions convey otherwise. Interestingly, I`ve never seen anyone labelled `traitor`, statements from people across the spectrum and such media frenzy when a company which employs thousands of people is closed down, or when a bridge or highway is delayed. We are a nation of fools, and we deserve the leaders that we have.

BTW, article was a good read. I particularly liked this:
``It seems, from hearing the conversations that Saturday night, that we humans have a desire; a wish and a longing to revisit our places of birth and reconfirm the memories of our childhood. I am not sure, what is the real reason behind this impulse. Maybe, as we grow old and are forced to make compromises, we hark back to the memories of our childhood, because it was a period of unblemished bliss and innocence and it was a time of a carefree joy, which we all miss as we grow older and are burdened by the injustices of life. `` and your post #16 on the way History is taught in our region.

re: aisha_sarwari # 47

I will try to remember the politically correct version of the affirmative action, as suggested by you! lol

Aisha, thank you so much for bringing up the Lahore-New Delhi comparsion! lol ;)

re: Aha_Snark # 38

I did not have any problems, though some of the students were a trival uneasy when some of the most popular myths were being riddled with questions.

Pakistan history, as it is taught is so filled with contradictions that one only has to only raise the discrepencies to show the subject`s shallowness. At first, the student did not believe me and after I had periodically challenged them to defend their views, by asking them to justify the basis of their knowledge, they would admit to the doubt that they might be wrong. In fact, at Aitchison College, I had to de-construct the history of Pakistan since 1947 and then re-construct it. I always tell my students that I do mind them disagreeing with me, but they better have solid reasons to justify their disagreements and cannot just disagree with me for the sake of patriotism.

In Aitchison College, teachers who teach a critical version of history are known as ``anti- Pakistan`` and I was called that; by some of my students and a few of my co-workers. In fact, I have learned that one needs to be very aggressive in the defense of the truth and I would be verging on the point of rudeness in my discussion with my co-workers. There was a lot of gossiping and rumor mongering going at Aitchison behind my back and finally, I had to confront the purveyors of disinformation and present them with an option. I told them that if they wanted to call me names, I would much rather prefer that they called me names to my face, because then I would have a much greater respect for them. I also told them that I have a very poor opinion of people, who talk behind a person`s back especially when that particular individual is not present to defend his/her views.

In fact, the first lesson I teach my students in Pakistan history is by asking them the question, who created Pakistan? The answer is always Jinnah and I inform them, every time, that it is the wrong answer because Pakistan was created by Nehru, Sardar Patel and Gandhi and by the Congress Party. :)

In Lahore American School, though I have not been called an ``anti-Pakistan``, I think that most of students think that I am a pagan, because I force them to reconcile their views on Islam, with life style choices. Whereas, I had to de-construct history at Aitchison College, I had to force the students to confront the dilemma posed in the Pakistani society and which is; that there is a huge gulf between what is claimed in a religious sense and what is preached as Islam.

Parenthetically speaking, recently I am also seeing this trend in the Indian new media over the resignation of L. K. Advani. In India, it seems that there is an offical history, which is at variance with the actual history and anyone, who attempts to suggest so is hounded by the ``moral guardians of the past``. In fact, what Advani said is not new. I am certain that the next victim of the Indian media feeding frenzy will George Fernades. I was reading The News and there was an article in on Advani and in which Fernades is quoted as saying and I quote, `` Jinnah was a secular person till 1935 but the behavior of then Congress leader Jawahar Lal Nehru forced him to fight for a seperate nation``.

To me, it does not matter that the Indian post 1947 history does not hold high opinion of Jinnah, but what is even more amusing is that, to the best of my knowledge, no Indian historian has asked what made Jinnah demand a seperate nation? I have no qualms about the Indians hating Jinnah for his TNT ideas, but it should be instructive to learn, what made Jinnah turn his back on All India Congress Party? The hounding of Advani and maybe, Fernandes, suggests that India is also not ready to confront the past honestly and it too exists in a bubble of its own mythology. The whole Advani episode is a storm in a tea cup and it is really funny also, because it seems that political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions because of the intolerance of their constituencies! lol :)

Ciao

#52 by ferozk on June 8, 2005 5:01am PT


The whole Advani episode is a storm in a tea cup and it is really funny also, because it seems that political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions because of the intolerance of their constituencies!


That`s just silly...They can express their opinion all they want..In case you hadn`t read(you probably did but chose to ignore it), he resigned on his own volition...It would be a knock on Indian democracy if the government had forced him to resign...He is free to say what he wants and his party is free to kick him out if it wants...

My take on this...the whole thing is moot really...

Now the BJP leadership has refused to accept his resignation and advani will now decide whether he`ll continue..yup...advani now decides...

Re: # 69
re: mohar11:
///Togadia is : C) Assorted Freak
That`s an easy one - I am surprised you couldn`t figure that out yourself.///

Fair enough.

cheers,
A_S

Re: # 66 aha

Togadia is : C) Assorted Freak

That`s an easy one - I am surprised you couldn`t figure that out yourself.

Re: # 55

re: mohar11:

//The so called ``hounding`` is from congress, commies, and other assorted freaks[call themselves ``seculars``] who don`t know jack from their a$$es.//

Praveen Togadia called him a traitor and called for his resignation. So either your proposition is wrong or Praveen Togadia is A) Congress B) Commie C) Assorted Freak D) All of the above. Which is it ?

52/feroz
//...to the best of my knowledge, no Indian historian has asked what made Jinnah demand a seperate nation?....//

For a self-proclaimed history teacher - you don`t seem to possess that much knowledge, do you?

Almost all history texts india mention the dispute between congress and jinnah which led to his TNT and his communal politics. Of course, the books are critical of jinnah and his communal politics [ and rightly so] but not that critical. See - the history texts in india, as a rule, never go too critical on any muslim personality - not even the invaders ... because that may upset the secularism apple-cart.

So most people know about why jinnah did what he did. But see - unlike pakis, we don`t believe in ``devil made me do it`` theories. Just because Jinnah had a dispute with congress, doesn`t justify his communalism, vitriol, demonization of hindus and general islamo-fascism that he professed. just because you had a quarrel with your wife, doesn`t mean that you would suddenly become gay.

Jinnah`s actions are his alone and cannot be explained away with ``congress made me do it``.

++++

//..The hounding of Advani and maybe, Fernandes, suggests that India is also not ready to confront the past...//

The so called ``hounding`` is from congress, commies, and other assorted freaks[call themselves ``seculars``] who don`t know jack from their a$$es. And mostly because- advani seem to be on verge of redefining ``secularism`` iself and in the process, would pull the rug from under their feet.

Indians in general know their history and their past - there is nothing hidden to ``confront``. Indians know what jinnah was and what he did and why did. Like I said - that in no way justifies his actions. But people , in retrospect, generally accept that what happened is for the best - except for the bloodshed.

And please curb your paki tendency to throw stupid hyperboles like ``...political leaders in the world`s largest democracy cannot even express their own opinions`` - that`s just bullsh!t. The whole discussion here is because advani expressed his opinion and is standing by it.

Re: # 56 ana
//...no, jinnah`s actions were not completely jinnah`s alone, he wasn`t like in a vacuum you know...//

Neither was Hitler, or Modi, or pick your lunatic. ..... I am not saying jinnah = hitler = modi...... Just pointing out the absurdity of claiming triggers/stimulus or whatever, as excuse for your actions.

People have to own up. Modi can`t claim godhra as an excuse for his communal massacre. Neither can Jinnah claim congress as an excuse for his communalism. Like I said - ``devil made me do it`` logic doesn`t work.

everyone always has an answer for everything, don`t they?!

mohar, no, jinnah`s actions were not completely jinnah`s alone, he wasn`t like in a vacuum you know. . . and yes, they cannot simply or completely be explained away by the actions of AINC. :)

there are enough boards going on and on about jinnah. i guess we are all ``doomed`` to dig him out of that beautiful mausoleum. can we please leave gandhiji and jinnah sahib to rest in whatever state of soul they are resting in, and go on with our lives?! i suspect the answer will be (looking at the 8 ball). . . .

#55 by mohar11 on June 8, 2005 7:28am PT


Indians in general know their history and their past -


First they`ll accuse Indians of not knowing enough about Pakistan...Then when Indians actually post what they know about Pakistan, like it`s support for Islamic fundamentalism/terrorism, it`s secterian conflicts, the joke that is it`s stock market(all true and all backed by links), you`ll be accused of being an anti-pakiland bigot....

maybe google can create a special search engine for pakiland.. pakiland.google.com.. searches on this domain will only return positive news about Pakiland...searching for Pakistan +``support for the taliban`` will return a no results found..

Maybe the new google India research ctr can work on this...