Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

naeem, its good to have a senstive guy in pakistan ......one thing.......its not the martian women who are prone to rape..... in this soceity, all of us are... especially if the rapist will be protected.....rape is a crime against the state.... if mukhtaran has this story......anybody can.....infact she has put a face to a horrific truth which we denied to feel more secure....crime is commited everywhere, against anyone but...the state should never protect criminals........thats a leap in the dark ages....we wont sit in the house knitting our sweaters if our women are raped.......we will stand up.....dr.shazia has the same story.......to me her case was even worst....and all these cases get media aid cuz the laws are almost if not completely against the victims.....the thing is , when these leaders do this injustice to us...when they try to keep information discreet...they too get caught in the same swamp they help create.....the mysterious plain crashes, the kidnappings and the failed attempts to end exiles.....i am not hinting poetic justice.....this how the circle gets vicious.....i hope i made sense...i wanna hear more of things like this
thanx!.........Ammara

So i come back to chowk after a 2-3 day break and we are discussing Ahmedism !

Its interesting for me especially. As a college student here I have shared a house with a mix of shias, sunnis and ahmedis. The only reason we discuss religion in teh evenings in our living room is to pass time and expel energy this way when there is nothing to do and nothing is on tv. On the personal level it doesnt really matter, we do pray in each other`s mosques every now and then. Not an issue.

There have been hundreds of debates b/w each of these sects. Why get into them here on this posting? We were talking about mukhtara mai , right ?

Ahmedis pls visit the khatme-nabuwat website.
Non ahmedis pls visit the www.alislam.org website supported by muslim television ahmaddiya (MTA).

Find out about what the other believes in, respect it, and leave the remaining discussions to religious scholars to continuously debate. We cannot solve these issues or be able to prove any other wrong using this forum.

Re: # 226

So u have atheistic views. Interesting. :)

Recently, my friend completed a documentary on Mukhtara Mai and flew to Meerwala from Canada. In parts of her documentary she criticized religion strongly for most of the problems of Pakistan. I had a major argument with her over this on the lines that the minute you criticize people`s beliefs they stop listening to you. So the purpose of the documentary fails because the audience becomes negative.

I feel people in Pakistan may be pushed towards moderation in their religious views, but the moment you criticize religion for the problems and call it an ``evil`` all communication break down with them.

You will not get anything done for a people when you directly criticize their faith and belief. If given a choice people would rather accept a fundamentalist translation rather than total removal of religion from public life calling it a fraud.

Think about it.

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Text from original posting :

This is why there are people criticizing religion because relatively speaking, it has become a slightly evil being. Plus, once of of it`s trance, one can easily figure out that in essense, it is a fraud. Why not protest against a generations old fraud?

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Romair, sorry for the delayed response … my head is still spinning from ntsyed’s silliness …

If Ahmadis one day become the majority … and declare sunni’s etc. non-Muslims … it would be a travesty. All this struggle would have been in vain … and Ahamdis would have become the very monster they earlier wanted to defeat. And yes, the first ones always suffer …

But I must differ on one issue. I don’t think I have the right to consider a person non-Muslim … even at a personal level. Since the term Muslim is used by Allah Almighty … I don’t think I have the right to doubt if the term “Muslim” fits a person’s faith or not. I may have disagreements with one’s views … but I must leave the issue between him and Allah.

I’ll even go as far as this: If a person claims to be a Muslim, worships a monkey, walks around naked, and admits to incest … and calls all this Islam … I am not going to declare him a non-Muslim. I may argue, if needed, that this is not what Quran teaches … but I will be extremely hesitant to label him a non-Muslim … even in my heart.

Later dude …

Re: # 271

Antisyed

There are innumerable claimers of prophethood and even god-hood but why single out Mirza Sahib and that too trying to knock him out on technical grounds alone. Why? Perhaps you feel you cannot do this on merit. And for that matter why single out Mukhtaran Mai when the raped-ones too are innumerable both male and female. And in her case also the court had to resort to the technical grounds. Even Zia, the pseudoislamist, had to resort to tecnical grounds in his referendom. He said if you vote for Islam that means you elect me as a President of Pakistan for 5 years. What a logic! You can do anything with the technical grounds.

There was a claiment to prophet-hood named, Aein Faatimi, an advocate, a few years ago, in Attock city, who also tried to use technical grounds to his advantage. He called him not a `Nabi` but a `Rasul` and claimed that since there is ban only on `Nabuwat` and not on `Rasalat`, he was a Rasul as his name was mentioned in the Quran. He was jailed for the chrge of blasphemy, released on bail and then killed at his home by some assailants unknown to this day.

So: `Yih martabahe buland mila jis ko mil gia`.

ntsyed,

All along I have argued on prophethood on basis of Quran, without mentioning Mirza Sahib. These issues are separate, but you bent on confusing one with the other.

At the start of this discussion, you insisted that “khattam” means last.

- I gave you several references where “khattam” is used to indicate a person’s exalted status. You did not comment.

- I then referred to views of respected scholars from Islamic history who accepted continuation of prophethood. You facetiously wondered if these were Ahmadi scholars. As it turns out, they were personalities like Shah Waliullah, Ibne Arabi, and more. You did not comment on this at all.

- I cited Quran (Surah-e-Fatiha and Durood sheriff) where believers implore Allah to bestow them with blessings, like Allah bestowed people of the past. Appearance of prophets was one of the highest blessing on these people. You failed to show why prophets are no longer a part of divine blessings.

- I have argued that completion of Law does not imply end of prophethood. Allah raised prophets to guide people back to truth as they went astray. You have failed to show why this can no longer happen.

- You raised the issue of hadith. I showed a ahdith cited by mullah … which actually proves continuation of prophethood. You did not comment.

- You asked me to prove that Abu Bakr and Omar accepted continuation of prophethood. I asked you what makes you think they believed in end of prophethood. You did not comment.

- I cited from Sayutti regarding Bibi Ayesha expressing belief in continuation of prophethood. Your position is that you do not know enough about Sayutti, so you cannot comment.

- I cited hadith where the Prophet (pbuh) called Hazrat Ali “khatam-ul-auliya”. You did not comment.

On the other hand, you seem to have suggested that all prophets come from same lineage.

- I am not aware of anything in Quran or ahadith even remotely supporting this. Quran tells us that Allah has raised prophets among every people, for guidance. Were prophets appearing in China, Brazil, South Africa, and Australia from the same lineage? How do you define lineage? When did this lineage come to an end?

Yours is an odd argument … so it must be supported by some level of reasoning. But you merely insist that one needs to read Quran as explained by ullema to fully understand this. What is so difficult about this issue that one should not study Quran himself and necessarily rely on ullema to tell them what to believe??? You failed to give any valid reason for your view.

You insist on Issa coming back, for worldwide Muslim population, after more than two thousand years of his birth.

- I pointed out that since Quran describes Issa as a prophet for Israelites, how can Issa lead the worldwide Muslim population. You did not comment.

- I showed parallels between Torah/Testaments and Quran/ahadith about ascension and reappearance of prophets, and that these are metaphors. You pleaded ignorance of Bible, and dropped the issue.


To sum things up ...

So far you have ignored reasoning that counters your view, have failed to validate your views with reasons, have made some outlandish claims but failed to provide any basis for such claims. You main response seems to be … to accept what your ullema say.

If this is the case, why discuss anything at all? If reasons do not make you review your position, why reason at all?

Re: # 268

sattar2,

``Continuation of prophethood is a separate matter from Mirza Sahib. Mixing them up would unnecessarily complicate the issue. I have kept them separate … and so should you.``

I`m sorry, but these are directly linked to each other. The issue became complicated the day he claimed to be the prophet of Islam after Mohammad (PBUH) and started this cult and the whole shabang.

Over and over I`ve pointed out your futile attempts to twist the meanings of the Quranic verses and ahadith and quotes of the sahaba (ra) and every one and every thing you could to hammer in the justification of Mirza`s prophethood. Obviously their context doesn`t mean anything to you on this discussion, but with Romair you stress on the context.

Now you wish to separate the continuation of prophethood from Mirza `cause it`s becoming unmanageable for you.

I could still continue this discussion with you, but as I mentioned earlier I`m traveling on business/family visit, thus pressed on time, connectivity, etc.

But it should give you a clear idea that if you couldn`t convince a nobody like me, then no wonder Mirza couldn`t convince the scholars. I wish I could wish you luck in your efforts, but I don`t think Allah approves of that. So, the best I can say to you is to keep trying if you wish to waste your time on Mirza.

If it`s just the last word you wish to have, knock yourself out.


DM,
may be some other time, since I`m pressed on time right now. But it`s very simple if you read the Quran and its exegeses, Sunnah and history of the prophets by bona fide scholars of Islam. In fact, that would be more informative for you than asking a non-scholar like me. You can read non-Muslim scholars too. But as most people have experienced, the contradictions in their claims like that of Mirza Ahmed may not help you and leave you confused about various issues. Having your own interpretation of the Quran without learning the background and prevailing circumstances as and when the verses were revealed is what gets Romairs and tahmeds of the Muslim world in trouble from both sides.

cheers.

May I ask why this draconian cencership in chowk? I find my post at 240 missing.

As for Mai`s rape `she has the cake and eats it too`. Her alleged rapists would be saying:

Ham ko duaaen do tujhe qaatil bana dia

How many women would be wishing to be raped like that but `` yih buland martabah jise mil gia mil gia``.

Getting back to the topic at hand. How many times does the poor unfortunate lady have to be raped? First by her own village, then by the Lahori courts, then by her own wrteched country. And now, finally, self-promoting hypocrite do gooders, such as Temporal, are using her misfortune to dominate a three-ring circus act. The rape of MukhtaraN Mai will be used by Temporal and his liberal cohorts to:
Oust the military government and impose direct rule from Washington (23rd St & E Streets)
Restore the ``democratic`` regime of Benazir Bhutto
Make the courts more just (as if Chowk is a good model!)
Allow the overweight, obese, and well-fed lesbo feminazis to run in Lahore marathons
Repeal the hudood laws and replace them with lesbian lewdness

Mr. Temporal and your cohorts: Please leave the poor woman alone and stop using any excuse to further your insidious agenda.

Never have so many reaped so much mileage from one rape.

Salim

ntsyed (#261):

Continuation of prophethood is a separate matter from Mirza Sahib. Mixing them up would unnecessarily complicate the issue. I have kept them separate … and so should you.

Some comments on ahadith

Ahmadis accept ahadith as a source of wisdom and guidance … as long as they do not negate Quran. Ahadith, being works of men, are prone to human error. In case of conflict, Quran rules.

Here’s a hadith … quoted by mullah (yes, even by Urstruly as well as Naqshbandi) to support end of prophethood. Ullema tend to emphasize only the first half of this hadith … however, reading the full hadith proves the exact opposite.

The dear Prophet (pbuh) said … I am the last (akhir) prophet … and this mosque of mine is the last (akhir) mosque.

This hadith suggests that although more mosques will be built, they will be a reflection of the Prophet’s mosque. Similarly more prophets will appear, but their message will be a reflection of the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

This also addresses the issue you raised about all prophet bringing the same message from the Almighty.

Return of Issa

This is a reference to a prophet appearing among the Muslims. If you interpret it as appearance of Issa from two thousand years ago, that’s your view.

And if Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago does reappear, what will you do with Quran which describes him as a prophet for Israelites?

Old and New Testament

Granted, earlier scriptures have underdone changes at the hands of men. However, one still sees striking parallels between Torah/Testaments and Quran/hadith.

Bible mentioning ascension of prophet Elijah is strikingly similar to Quran mentioning ascension of Issa. Old Testament prophecy of Elijah reappearing is strikingly similar to ahadith regarding reappearance of Issa. And when Jesus was asked about reappearance of Elijgh, he mentioned that John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya) has appeared in the spirit of Elijah.

Are these parallels mere coincidences? In my view they suggest that at times spiritual guidance is revealed in the language of metaphors.

Perfection of religion

According to Quran, Allah guided people through prophets as they went astray. Not all prophets brought Law, as some only came to warn and to remind people. You are yet to make your point here.

Khattam-un-nabiyeen

I gave you several examples of “khattam” used to show a person’s exalted position (khattam-ul-mufasereen, for example). Furthermore, if I recall reading correctly, the dear Prophet (pbuh) called Hazrat Ali (ra) khattam-ul-auliya. I further provided you references to views of other scholars who accepted continuation of prophethood. You have not commented.

Surah-e-Fatiha

We ask Allah to guide us on path of those who earned Allah’s favors, and not path of those who earned His wrath. Quran tells us of people who earned Allah’s favors by accepting His prophets … and people who earned divine wrath by rejecting Allah’s prophets. You are yet to give valid reasons for ruling out future prophets from this picture.

You agree that there have been divinely guided people before and after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). What makes you rule out prophets from this group of divinely guided people?

Durood sheriff

Prophethood was one of many blessings among followers of Ibrahim (pbuh). You are yet to give valid reasons to rule out prophets from these blessings.

People (aal) of Ibrahim is not necessarily his blood relatives. It refers to those spiritually associated with him. And if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) belonged to lineage of Prophet Ismail (pbuh), how does this suggest that prophets can only come from blood-lineage? Are you telling me that all prophets were each others direct descendants? Where are you getting this information from?

Sahib … you are overreaching to make your point. It is time to stop speculating or merely insisting … and to give some well-grounded reasons for criticizing Ahamdi views.

Long live condi rice. victory to mukhtaran mai. down with abdul hates and so-what-if-a-mere-mai-got-raped-our-image-is-more-important-than-out-ghairat pakistanis.

folks thank you and keep writing, pledging and working to dismantle the vestiges of the army-mullah nexus in pakistan

a very small victory for the righteous
a big defeat for abdul-hate`s regressionary tactics

Mukhtaran free to travel: US

WASHINGTON, June 21: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice secured a personal pledge from Pakistan that Mukhtaran Mai will be allowed to visit the United States, officials said on Tuesday.

ntsyed:

``You must be aware that all the prophets were from the line of Prophets throughout history. Since none of Mohammad’s (PBUH) sons lived long enough to continue his lineage, there could not be a prophet from amongst his (PBUH) progeny.``

Sorry to butt in this family feud. While I do not claim to understand everything about the Quran and Islam, could you please point out to any verse in the quran which validates this statement? And doesn`t it go against the claim that God sent his messengers to all nations? If all these prophets were from the same lineage, who brought the message to places like Europe, Africa, India, China and the rest of Asia?

Re: # 256 by sattar2

” You are mixing things up. So far I have referred to Quran only to validate continuation of prophethood … without references to Mirza Sahib.”

Au contraire, you’re unnecessarily separating the two to justify Mirza Ahmed’s prophethood. In my recollection, you do not subscribe to sahih Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi – the three compilers of Ahadith recognized by most Muslims as top-notch and most reliable. Their work is referenced by most the most recognized exegetes of Quran. And nowhere in any one of those works there’s an authentic hadith, or narration of any companion of the Prophet (PBUH), negating the end of Prophethood at Mohammad (PBUH). On the other hand, as per the Prophet’s (PBUH) address in his only pilgrimage (hajjatulwid’a), and on other occasions, it has been recorded that he is the last prophet in the long line of prophets since Adam (PBUH).

Perfection of religion
The point you fail to see is that when there’s no need for any more revelations, there’s no need for any NEW prophets. The reason you fail to see it is because you’re trying to defend the indefensible claim of Mirza Ahmed and continuation of prophethood.

Return of Issa …
As Allah says in the Quran, from Adam (PBUH) to Mohammad (PBUH), all His messengers and prophets have brought the same message to different groups of people. Both Isrealites and Muslims are the progeny of Ibrahim (PBUH). The former was given the same message from Allah through Musa and Eisa (PBUH) as the latter received it from Mohammad (PBUH). It’s another thing that the Israelites changed the message to their ends. So, whether one is from the Israelite lineage or Muslim, Eisa (PBUT) will continue to uphold and propagate the same message – Islam, which according to our beliefs is Quran and according to their belief is Torah.

Rest assured, common sense is not a problem for me. It is the unnecessary stretching and extrapolation without the knowledge of background of the verses that causes problems for YOU. But that’s what one encounters when he/she rejects Mohammad’s (PBUH) interpretation of the Quran according to his authentic ahadith as recorded by Sahih Bukhari and his colleagues.

Along the same lines …
I’m unfamiliar with the old and new testaments. And frankly I do not care much about the text since it’s been changed by the Israelites over the centuries to suit their agenda. Reappearance of Elijah (PBUH) in the form of Yahya (PBUH) is the first time I’ve ever heard of it. According to Quran there’s no truth to this parable, and that they were two different Prophets in different times.

Absurd comparison
I have nothing against you, I don’t even know you beyond what you profess at chowk. However, your shying away from answering the question further reinforces the impression of your insecurity and folly concerning your prior claims about ‘feeling close’ to Allah, privacy, and respect. But I understand; those were hard questions and further highlight your contradictions. Though, I agree with the ‘dead horse’ part; especially after your refusal. You continue to put yourself in difficult position with outlandish definitions and references.

Seal of the Prophets (Khattam-an-nabiyeen - PBUH)
You must be aware that all the prophets were from the line of Prophets throughout history. Since none of Mohammad’s (PBUH) sons lived long enough to continue his lineage, there could not be a prophet from amongst his (PBUH) progeny. Thus, another validation of the word ‘khattam’ as the Seal of Prophethood. You’re still free to interpret it as you wish.

Sura-e-Fatiha
“Guide us to the Straight way” (1:6)
“The way of those on whom YOU have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray” (1: 7)

Context of the whole Chapter
In the first 4 verses, we praise and glorify Him, then we pledge our obedience to Him, and then we pray to Him “Guide us to the Straight way”, then the final verse narrows the definition of the ‘Straight way’.

Why do we make the supplication in 1:6? Simply because (as you and I agree), the Guidance comes from Allah; with or without the prophets. The simple fact that there have been divinely Guided people before and after the prophet Mohammad (PBUH) is a simple proof of that.

As I’ve said before, your interpretation of the last verse of this chapter unnecessarily stretches it to justify the prophethood of Mirza Ahmed.

Again, refer to the Quran for the verse revealed to Mohammad (PBUH) when Abu Talib was dying.

Durood-shareef
Firstly the supplication does not refer to ‘followers’. ‘Aal’ in Arabic means family and progeny, not followers. Of course, the family and progeny follows as in comes after, the father. This is probably where you’re confusing the meaning to justify continuation of prophethood.

Secondly, the blessings are very clear in meaning as well; i.e. peace and prosperity. Again, your interpretation is stretching the meanings to justify the continuation of prophethood and Mirza Ahmed’s prophethood. These are extrapolations after stretching the meanings to suit your claim.

It’s true that Ibrahim (PBUH) has a very high rank among the prophets since his progeny became the leaders of mankind; first the Isrealites and then Muslims. However by your definition, Adam (PBUH) would be more appropriate as he (PBUH) was the father of ALL the prophets. Would he be not?

Of course, I’m not a scholar, but the study of history suggests it’s the leadership (of mankind) aspect of Ibrahim (PBUH), as pointed out above, that specifically refers to him in the durood and not Adam (PBUH) or even Isma’eel (PBUH) who was directly related to Mohammad (PBUH) as far as lineage is concerned.

As for blessing in terms of prophethood, Mohammad (PBUH) was the last one if you care to read his authentic ahadith. I’ve not read Sayutti’s book, thus am unfamiliar with ‘Aisha’s (r.a) comment. Would you care to show me how many narrated this quote from her and who they were? I’ll have to check the veracity of the quote before commenting on it.

Furthermore, it is recorded in Sahih ahadith that Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) often proudly said that he (PBUH) belonged to a lineage which includes the two men who were almost sacrificed for the sake of Allah: Isma’eel (PBUH) and Mohammad’s (PBUH) father Abd-Allah. Since it’ll be a digression to discuss how Abd-Allah almost got sacrificed, I think you should read the prophet (PBUH) biography to learn that.

And finally…
My other comments are not facetious. These are genuine concerns developed by your unnecessary stretching and extrapolation of Quranic verses, ahadith, quotes, and your arguments.

ntsyed

sattar2 #: ``Yes indeed, my experiences as an Ahmadi-Muslim have colored my views.``

The Quran does, obviously, extend beyond the personal world. As does every religion in the world. As does every philosophy and system.........

However, one lives one`s life as one sees fit. In some cases, the circumstances are such that one cannot do so. So one migrates. You have done that. Now you are in a position where you can live your life, as you see fit...........

The reason Ahmedis are non-Muslims and Sunnis are Muslims, in Pakistan, is because the overwhelming majority is Sunni in Pakistan. Had the majority been Ahmedis, it is quite possible that Sunnis would have been declared non-Muslims. Shias will never be non-Muslims in Iran, but Sunnis could be someday. While Sunnis will never be non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, but Shias could be, someday........In fact, it was a Shia non-maulvi, named Bhutto, who declared Ahmedis non-Mulsims.......Now ironically, there are infant movements to declare Shias non-Muslims in Pakistan........

Relgious movements get powerful when masses convert to them. Ahmedis position will become powerful if large number of people switch to Ahmedi-ism. You are the first few generations, so you have to suffer. Much like followers of all religions suffered.......If large numbers do not follow Ahmedi-ism, then it will eventually shrink and then die off, like many other religious movements, historically............

Having said that, it is everyone`s personal rigth to consider someone a Muslim or non-Muslim. I may not consider you a Mulsim, personally. And you may not consider me one. Nothing wrong with that, as long as both of us are fair to each other. However, no State, group, scholar(s) etc. is authorized (by Islam itself) to declare someone a non-Mulsim. In fact, there is no defined mechanism in the Quran on a procedure to declare someone a non-Muslim. Should a jury do it? Should a Qazi do it? Should the State do it? Should it be may majority vote? Should a group of, ``ulema`` do it?

My $.02 for you, if you are interested: There are people, on this site, who have declared me non-Muslim (primarily because they cannot debate Islam with me, since they lack the knowledge, beyond what their, ``ulema`` have taught them).

I generally debate anything and everything with anyone. Except a few things: The moment someone declares me a non-Muslim, I don`t get into a debate with them to prove that I am a Muslim. I simply tell them f//ck off. And that is the end of it, from my side.

If someone can label me, based on thier own perverted standards, then they have basically declared me, ``guilty`` for no specific reason. Just because they think I am guilty. If I get into a debate with them to try to prove I am, ``innocent,`` then I have lost the fight before it has even begun. I have accepted that I am guilty, till proven innocent. I have allowed myself to be labelled...........From that point onwards, I will always be fighting the fight on the other person`s terms.....

echoboom #254, {``The rape of MukhtaraN Mai is still going on. Now by the NGOs and doGooders.``}

Beautifully stated. I agree with you. The MukhtaraN Mai tragedy has been hijacked by this crowd of goody goody two shoes for their own ulterior motives. Whether it`s a rape in Multan, a marathon in Lahore, or a Tsunami in the Indian Ocean, these insidious feminazis will use any ruse and any excuse to turn an event into a circus for their own designs. Kudos to you and others for recognizing this nonsense.
Salim :) My apologies about these nic changes necessitated by the unjust Chowk Staff. :)