Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

Urstruly (#235),

You sounded like you had found something against Ahamdis. What was it …may I ask?

By referring to the “elephant” verses, you seem to be looking to validate your view that Quran does not have to make sense, it only has to be followed as ullema tell us. Can you come up with a better argument …?

I’ll be the second, after hamidm, to admit that some parts and details of Quran are not always easy to understand (although tauheed miaN remains in denial). Its basic message is easy to grasp … as it appeals to human intellect. But admittedly, some of its parts need due diligence. At times it goes on and on about stories that can be difficult to follow and hard to interpret. For starters, there is alif-lam-meem which continues to baffle me …

However, this in no way suggests that we ignore clear Quranic commandments, as well as our sense of civility, on issues of adultery, apostasy, and blasphemy … and start executing people … as suggested by your ullema. One has to be a moron to not see this blatant contradiction.

BTW, your cousin ntsyed is drowning. Are you going to idly stand by and watch? Feel free to correct him as you see fit. Earlier, when I posted Maudoodi`s views supporting return of Issa-ibne-Marriam, you expressed disagreement with Maudoodi over certain issues. Aren`t you going to share this wealth of knowledge with your cousin? C`mon now ... be a sport ...

Romair …

Agreed, in that what I stated is not exclusive to Muslims. Followers of each religion have sunk low at some point in time. I hope I am wrong, but I would be surprised if Ahmadi-Muslims fare much better with passage of time.

Often I shock fellow Ahmadis by asking them … ”who do you think will persecute the next prophet of Allah and his followers? As I get blank states, I explain … of course, it would be us Ahmadis who will make life miserable for Allah’s next prophet.

There are shades and degrees of support. Some people actively support a cause, some only approve of it, some are somewhat disinterested, while some disapprove of it although not strongly enough. I am of the opinion that a critical mass of population has to support a cause, in varying degrees, for the cause to stay alive.

Maudoodi did exploit Islam … we agree. My point is that Quran does reach beyond the individual and aims to influence social and political spheres of things. Qruan’s scope is not limited to an individual level only … but extends beyond that.

Yes indeed, my experiences as an Ahmadi-Muslim have colored my views. And that is to be expected … and that’s life. It is a rare occurrence for the entire upper echelon of ullema to band together to persecute a tiny community. It seems that confrontation with Ahmadis has exposed some of the deeper insecurities among the ummah … which obviously will result in backlash against Ahmadis and not everyone else. So yes, my experience is not a common one … and hence my views may not be shared by everyone else.

ntsyed (#248):

You are mixing things up. So far I have referred to Quran only to validate continuation of prophethood … without references to Mirza Sahib. These are two separate issues ... let`s keep them that way for now.

Perfection of religion

Divine guidance comes from Allah … agreed. According to Quran prophets are means through which Allah conveys this guidance to the people. Divine guidance has come in the past … and prophets too have appeared in the past. I fail to see your point.

Religion has been perfected in Quran … agreed. But this does not imply end of prophethood. Prophets have appeared to warn people and to remind them on basis of divine law. Reread this sentence. Once again, you are mixing things up.

Return of Issa …

If you think Issa will reappear after two thousand years of his birth … that’s your faith and I am ok with it (although Urstruly seems to have a bit of a problem accepting it). Note that Quran describes Issa as a prophet for the Israelites. When he appears for the worldwide Muslim population … would he still be a prophet for Israelites only … as the Quran says? Or would Quran start to lose meaning at that point? This is one of many problems with this view.

Ahmadis accept this hadith. We interpret it using Quranic guidance and common sense. Apparently that constitutes a problem for you.

Along the same lines …

Old Testament contains a prophecy about prophet Elijah (pbuh) reappearing among the Israelites at a later time. As explained later by Jesus Christ (pbuh), and recorded in New Testament, it was only a metaphor. Appearance of Prophet Yahya (John the baptist, a companion of Jesus Christ, pbuh) fulfilled the prophecy of reappearance of prophet Elijah (pbuh).

Absurd comparison

You are clutching on straws here to find something against me. I am quite comfortable with my take on things and see no need to explain myself to you. You are beating a dead horse here. It’s time to move on.

Seal of Prophets

It seems you do not have much to add to the meaning of “khattam-un-nabiyeen” here. You also did not comment on Surah-e-Fatiha and durood shariff. You are now raising speculative arguments … while ignoring more concrete points I`ve raised.

Or are we done with Quranic arguments on this issue?

Now you want to move on to Abu Bakr and Omar (ra). Good enough. What makes you think they believed in end of prophethood? I came across this saying of Bibi Ayesha (ra) recorded in Sayutti’s book … where, referring to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) she said … “do call him khattam-un-nabiyeen”, but do not say there will be no prophet after him”. From what I have understood, this was in response to someone suggesting that now that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has passed away, no more prophets will appear.

And finally …

Rest of your post contains facetious comments. Let’s focus on the issue at hand, unless you have nothing intelligent to add to it …

ntsyed sahib:
#250

``I think MM should be allowed to seek justice wherever and as far as she has to go. And that all of us should help her and others like her to our maximum potential.``

see...there are some things we can agree on :).

have a good break ntsyed sahib and yes we will continue the discussion upon your return. always another board and another argument ;).

miriam

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Re: # 252 Dost

The following explains why NGOs have been descended upon Pakistan like curse and bubonic plague and why it is a cause celebre for these foreign agents.

ntsyed#248:

``Subtle distortions of fact only harms the credibility of these groups and individuals, and may harm the victims` credibility as well. It may seriously undermine the struggle the victims have taken on so boldly.``

Good point! I hope that these people are ignorant and not trying to sensationalise the issue with exaggeration.

Who do these clowns in the foreign office think they are fooling?

The foreign office on Monday said that there was no pressure on Pakistan regarding the Mukhtaran Mai’s case and reiterated that Islamabad had always endeavoured to uphold the rights of women.

Re: # 245

I think MM should be allowed to seek justice wherever and as far as she has to go. And that all of us should help her and others like her to our maximum potential.

One cannot blame the NGOs for exploiting MM and the situation to their ends. It`s the govt`s fault. However, they lose much credibility in the eyes of a lot of people, including mine, when they twist the truth.

For example: ``Early this year, for example, a doctor named Shazia Khalid reported that she had been gang-raped in a government-owned natural-gas plant.``

Up until I read this post, she was reported to have been raped ``one`` (1) army officer; perhaps a captain; not gang-raped. Why the unnecessary dramatization and lies?

Similarly, temporal pasted a circular by AANA (or some group) calling to attend MM`s press conferences in the US. I think to that end it should be lauded and supported as it may help MM. But in that circular, the author (Ms Bhutt(i) or someone, I don`t remember) claimed that MM was gang-raped by ``twelve`` (12) men. Whereas, the news up until now has been that 4 actually raped her.

Increasing the number of perpetrators in the two examples above does not make the women any more victimized than they actually are. Nor does maintaining the actual numbers will make them less eligible for our sympathy. Being raped by even one person is more than enough for public awareness of the issue.

Subtle distortions of fact only harms the credibility of these groups and individuals, and may harm the victims` credibility as well. It may seriously undermine the struggle the victims have taken on so boldly.

But I suppose if these people could understand this simple logic, would they even attempt such stupidity to begin with? Morons!

Re: #245

Wow! Musharraf getting a real PR lesson here.

I hope he learns it.

Re: # 233 by sattar2

``If message of Quran can be twisted to justify...``

Just like you`re twisting and stretching the verses of the Quran beyond or totally out of context to justify your prophethood of Mirza Ahmed as a prophet of Islam.

Secondly, ``Nowhere does Quran even remotely suggest that Allah will raise prophet no more`` suggests you haven`t studied Quran as attentively as you should have; i.e. with proper context. But I`m sure you must`ve read in the Quran and Sunnah that Divine Guidance comes ONLY from Allah, and not from the prophets. The latter is appointed by the former to propagate the message to the mankind. Case in point: the verse revealed at the time of Prophet`s (PBUH) uncle Abu Talib`s death. I`m sure you`re familiar with it.

So, since we`ve established that Allah is the One Who Guides, and not His prophets, as well as His declaration to have completed the `Deen` in perfection, why would the people need a `new` prophet since Allah Guides and not His prophets.

Of course, as per Islamic belief, however humorous they may be for you, Eisa (PBUH) will return, to uphold and propagate the same message as he did 2000 year ago - same Islam as Mohammad (PBUH) propagated as the last prophet. He (PBUH) will NOT return as a `new` prophet since he (PBUH) was taken up from earth alive. The `appearance` bit regarding him (PBUH) as per Quran and Sunnah refers to his (PBUH) crucifixion; not his (PBUH) return. I wonder if it was a deliberate attempt to twist or an innocent mistake on your part?

BTW, do Ahmedis deny this prophecy because it`ll further damage/discredit Mirza Ahmed and his claim? And what`s this I hear about an Ahmedi paradise somewhere (I forget the place) in Pakistan? If so, then what does it have? Perhaps you could arrange a tour for Urstruly and I. Who knows, that may win us over ;-)~~

The `absurd comparison`
Again, the context: `being secure` as per one`s belief, and `respect`. Your mother`s chastity is not in question.

Be that as it may, your statements ``[p]oking fun at Quran is fair game … more so for a believer...And if I feel close to Allah, what makes you think I cannot amuse myself at His expense???`` suggest you`re ``not`` close enough to your mother to `amuse` yourself at her expense. That it`ll not be a fair game to do so, and a violation of her privacy. Is it because Allah is unseen thus must not be able to punish you for your humor at His expense?

Why were you offended? Don`t you think God deserves `respect` and `privacy`? Or are you trying to be `selectively` rational about these concepts?

How can you claim to `feel close` to Almighty, when by your own admission (on another board) you consume alcohol in spite of the fact that Allah prohibited alcohol or any mind altering substance, more so on the believers?

You don`t seem secure enough when anyone criticizes Mirza Ahmed, are you? If you are, then why snap at Urstruly every single time?

Since you claim to know Authentic Ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH), can you tell me of one hadith which even indicates that the Prophet (PBUH) amused himself at Allah`s expense?

According to my studies, Abu Bakr (r.a) was close to Allah; whom Allah guaranteed to be the first human being after the prophets to enter the paradise. He won`t even need his deeds handed to him in order to do that. Yet another hadith tells us that Omar (r.a) was close to Allah second to Abu Bakr (r.a), and will be the first person to receive his deeds and second after Abu Bakr (r.a) to enter paradise.

Now, can you tell me if either of those two gentlemen interpreted `khattam-an`nabiyeen` as anything other than the `end of prophethood`? Or are you going to deny those ahadith and the credibility of the two men (r.a)? I wouldn`t be surprised if you did; you`re too predictable that way ;-)~~

After learning about Ahmedis from you, I`m surprised at the leniency they`ve received from the mainstream Muslims. Ahmedis should be thankful to the common Muslims, corrupt mullahs, warlords and feudal landlords, westernized politicians and their confused secular lobby, and the army instead of bad-mouthing those groups and individuals as and when it suits you.

I look forward to your response in the next day or two. No guarantees beyond that period since I`ll be absent from chowk for at least a fortnight afterwards.

---

jang (#238), you got it! :-)~~

Good bye everyone,
ntsyed :-)~~

freethinker #245 Thanks for posting a great article. It is indeed heartening to see that thanks to modern media (in particular the internet and online newspapers - the much maligned ``western press`` that is indeed the enemy of the thugs in Pakistan), evil is finding it harder and harder to hide.

Musharaff may strut around the world stage in his fancy uniforms and expensive suits as the unelected ruler of pakistan, but by denying Mukhtaran Mai the right to speak out while letting the thugs go free, he is shown himself to possess the same primitive mentality as those who write on chowk about a ``mere mai`` being raped. I am glad the international press cornered him with embarrassing questions about Mukhtaran Mai that he then had to duck,.

#242 by Romair on June 20, 2005 9:24pm PT


There is no support for sectarian violence in Pakistan. None whatsoever. The sectarian violence is committed by a tiny group of terrorists. All of whom are on the run. However, they do not need a wider base to survive.


Iraq has the exact same situation yet you describe it as a quagmire for America....

The same applies to Kashmir...the terrorists are a small percentage of the population of Indian Kashmir and they`re on the run....

Hereunder is another column on Mukhtaran mai by Nicholas kristoff, The New York Times. When the overseas media fight any of our national causes, it sometimes is considered by many as western propaganda against our country and the Muslim world at large. But when a deteriorating situation is allowed to go beyond humanistic boundaries, such a support from the overseas media should be welcomed. Kristoff`s columns on Mukhtaran Mai are a great moral and material support to the cause of women emancipation in Pakistan.

Mohammad Gill

Op-Ed Columnist
The 11-Year-Old Wife
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By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 21, 2005
When Pakistan`s prime minister visits next month, President Bush will presumably use the occasion to repeat his praise for President Pervez Musharraf as a bold leader ``dedicated in the protection of his own people.`` Then they will sit down and discuss Mr. Bush`s plan to sell Pakistan F-16 fighter jets capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

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More Columns by Nicholas D. Kristof
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But here`s a suggestion: How about the White House dropping word that before the prime minister arrives, he first return the passport of Mukhtaran Bibi, the rape victim turned human-rights campaigner, so that she can visit the United States?

Despite Mr. Bush`s praise, General Musharraf shows more commitment to his F-16`s than to his people. Now he`s paying the price. Visiting New Zealand the last few days, he was battered by questions about why he persecuted a rape victim, forcing him to cancel interviews.

Pakistani newspapers savaged him for harming Pakistan`s image. And the blogosphere has taken up Ms. Mukhtaran`s case, with more than 100 blogs stirring netizens to send blizzards of e-mails to Pakistani consulates or to join protests planned for Wednesday and Thursday at Pakistani offices in New York and Washington.

Yet it`s crucial to remember that Ms. Mukhtaran is only a window into a much larger problem - the neglect by General Musharraf`s government of the plight of women and girls.

Early this year, for example, a doctor named Shazia Khalid reported that she had been gang-raped in a government-owned natural-gas plant. Instead of treating her medically, officials drugged her into unconsciousness for three days to keep her quiet and then shipped her to a psychiatric hospital.

When she persisted in trying to report the rape, she was held under house arrest in Karachi. The police suggested that since she had cash, she must have been working as a prostitute. Dr. Shazia`s husband has stood by her, but his grandfather was quoted as suggesting that Dr. Shazia had disgraced the family and should be killed.

On average, a woman is raped every two hours in Pakistan, and two women a day die in honor killings.

While Ms. Mukhtaran and Dr. Shazia have attracted international support, most victims in Pakistan are on their own. Earlier this year, for example, police reported that a village council had punished a man for having an affair by ordering his 2-year-old niece to be given in marriage to a 40-year-old man.

In another case this year, an 11-year-girl named Nazan was rescued from her husband`s family, which beat her, broke her arm and strung her from the ceiling because she didn`t work hard enough.

Then there are Pakistan`s hudood laws, which have been used to imprison thousands of women who report rapes. If rape victims cannot provide four male witnesses to the crime, they risk being whipped for adultery, since they acknowledge illicit sex and cannot prove rape.

When a group of middle-class Pakistani women demonstrated last month for equal rights in Lahore, police clubbed them and dragged them to police stations. They particularly targeted Asma Jahangir, a U.N. special rapporteur who is also the head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.

Ms. Jahangir says the directions to the police about her, coming from an intelligence official close to General Musharraf, were: ``Teach the [expletive] a lesson. Strip her in public.`` Sure enough, the police ripped her shirt off and tried to pull her trousers off. If that`s how General Musharraf`s government treats one of the country`s most distinguished lawyers, imagine what happens to a peasant challenging injustice.

I`ve heard from Pakistanis who, while horrified by honor killings and rapes, are embarrassed that it is the barbarism in Pakistan that gets headlines abroad. A word to those people: I understand your defensiveness, for we Americans feel the same about Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. But rooting out brutality is a better strategy than covering it up, and any nation should be proud to produce someone like Ms. Mukhtaran.

So while meeting the Pakistani prime minister, Mr. Bush could discuss not only F-16`s, but also repeal of the hudood laws. And Mr. Bush could invite Ms. Mukhtaran to the Oval Office as well, both to hail a genuine Pakistani hero and to spotlight the goals of ordinary Pakistanis - not fighter aircraft but simple justice.

Resources

For more information about some of these issues, including the planned demonstrations outside Pakistani offices this week, see www.4anaa.org/projects/mukhtaran-mai.htm. That`s on the Web site of the Asian-American Network Against Abuse of Women, run by a group of Pakistani doctors, and it`s also the group that is arranging her visit to the U.S. To help Mukhtaran, don`t send checks to me. Instead, you can find out about contributing at www.mercycorps.org .

E-mail: nicholas@nytimes.com

# 243 by kaal

I have a request. Please don`t confuse Romair with logic.

Romair

Pakistan would be a highly unusual country if no Pakistani wanted any other Pakistani dead :)

Pakistanis may be misunderstanding the phenomenon of riots.

The absence of riots does not necessarily imply that no Pakistani wants to hurt any other Pakistani. It could also mean that the nature of Pakistani society and Pakistani state makes it easier to perpetrate one kind of regular violence that obviates the need for riots.