Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan
naeem sadiq June 14, 2005
#65 Posted by tahmed32 on June 16, 2005 9:34:35 am
HP #62 I have actually started ignoring most indian posters - the cayennes and arjun and so forth - who are nothong but a bunch of superficial, insecure people. Dost Mittar is not one of them.
I have respect for Dost Mittar who at least took the trouble of visiting Pakistan and of reading the Quran and who is clearly here to have civilized discussions and not to exchange mindless putdowns. The fact that despite all this he can come up with such obviously incorrect and indeed outrageous misrepresentations of the message of Islam points to the diet that people are fed in india.
I have respect for Dost Mittar who at least took the trouble of visiting Pakistan and of reading the Quran and who is clearly here to have civilized discussions and not to exchange mindless putdowns. The fact that despite all this he can come up with such obviously incorrect and indeed outrageous misrepresentations of the message of Islam points to the diet that people are fed in india.
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#64 Posted by hamidm2 on June 16, 2005 9:33:38 am
Re: # 63
........ tahmed, you miss the point
of course there are many decent folks who insist on making a fool out of themselves by raising their rear end to the heavens five times a day ....... heck, some of my best friends do that and i too have been known to debase myself twice a year ............ that has nothing to do with the fact that sharia is part and parcel of islam .......... just because i couldn`t find anything in the koran that categorically forbids me from drinking doesn`t mean mrs hamidm accepts my version of islam
........ tahmed, you miss the point
of course there are many decent folks who insist on making a fool out of themselves by raising their rear end to the heavens five times a day ....... heck, some of my best friends do that and i too have been known to debase myself twice a year ............ that has nothing to do with the fact that sharia is part and parcel of islam .......... just because i couldn`t find anything in the koran that categorically forbids me from drinking doesn`t mean mrs hamidm accepts my version of islam
#63 Posted by tahmed32 on June 16, 2005 9:28:07 am
hamidm/dm: and let me present one more fact related to the subject of this article for your consideration: It was the village maulvi (not some ``enlightened`` CSP or military officer) who brought the case of Mukhtar Bibi to light by boldly speaking out against the rape at Friday prayers.
You should no by now that I have nothing but disdain for ``bearded politicians`` aka mullahs and also my respect for the Quranic injunction against a priestly class in Islam. However, that does not blind me to the facts - there are decent, well-meaning people (a rarity among the mullahs as well as among the westernized babus of india and pakistan) at the grass roots level even among maulivs.
You should no by now that I have nothing but disdain for ``bearded politicians`` aka mullahs and also my respect for the Quranic injunction against a priestly class in Islam. However, that does not blind me to the facts - there are decent, well-meaning people (a rarity among the mullahs as well as among the westernized babus of india and pakistan) at the grass roots level even among maulivs.
#62 Posted by HP on June 16, 2005 9:26:47 am
Tahmed,
you actually fell for it. DM did it on purpose to stir things up. The limitation that DM and his ilk have is that they can only attack a religion to set up the hook. As I said in my earlier posts, there is nothing you can do about people who have been brought up to despise other faiths, religions and cultures.
Just pity them and move forward.
#61 Posted by tahmed32 on June 16, 2005 9:21:28 am
ntsyed: thanks for your support on this point. even though we dont see eye to eye on many things.
#60 Posted by khurram on June 16, 2005 9:19:06 am
Dost-mittar,
In traditional Islamic sharia, it has been permissable to have sexual relations with female slaves, whether purchased or captured in war. In the context of those times it was not considered rape.
Also, the punishment for rape or, even killing, non-muslims may not have been the same as raping or killing muslims.
I have no probelm with you criticizing these 2 aspects of Islam.
However, to exptrapolate from this that muslims are free to rape non-muslims is highly misleading and very unfair.
Use your common sense. Millions of non-muslims have lived under the protection of shria laws over the centuries. Was it open season on their women?
`Protection` is a vey strong concept in tribal culture. What kind of protection would it be if there was no bar against raping the women of the protected community.
In traditional Islamic sharia, it has been permissable to have sexual relations with female slaves, whether purchased or captured in war. In the context of those times it was not considered rape.
Also, the punishment for rape or, even killing, non-muslims may not have been the same as raping or killing muslims.
I have no probelm with you criticizing these 2 aspects of Islam.
However, to exptrapolate from this that muslims are free to rape non-muslims is highly misleading and very unfair.
Use your common sense. Millions of non-muslims have lived under the protection of shria laws over the centuries. Was it open season on their women?
`Protection` is a vey strong concept in tribal culture. What kind of protection would it be if there was no bar against raping the women of the protected community.
#59 Posted by tahmed32 on June 16, 2005 9:17:22 am
hamidm #49 So, I am a ``shameless obscurantist`` because I point to the plain and simple facts. Even the mighty hamidm is reduced to calling names when unable to refute these facts!! So sad. Call me what you like - what you cannot challenge is the fact that while the Quran is the word of God (per Islamic beliefs), the sharia represents the judicial dictates issued by Qazis who were beholden to the king. Far from being the word of God, the sharia is not even the result of any representative legislative body. So it does not even represent the thinking of ordinary muslims through the ages. Merely that of the hired mercenaries of ottoman despots, i.e. of the ``ulema`` and the ``qazis``.
#58 Posted by temporal on June 16, 2005 9:12:08 am
dost:
trying to stir hornet`s nest;) (pls. note the icon)
am not following the entire debate here... just a quck reply to your query...but before that a personal comment...contrary to deeply held misperceptions there is nothing in qur`an or islam that prohibits use of common sense to address an issue!
also, bhai sahib a rape is a rape is a rape....it is a gross violation of another person`s body (woman or man) and the religion of the victim should be furthest from anyone`s mind!
(the following is a fairly accurate reflection on the subject. some of the language is harsh but fairly accurate and representative of the real islam as i understand ...so help me Allah!-t)
The victims of rape, if they notify the authority immediately, will have enough proofs to convict most, if not al,l the accused rapists, as the physical facts including semen, saliva, blood, hair, fibers, skin scraps, bite marks,.....etc. are so many and easy to identify to convict the rapist. There is no truth to the claimed rumor that the rape victim has to present four witnesses to prove the rape when there are so many other physical proofs.
*Islam (Submission) treats both men and women equally and a woman victim of rape cannot be blamed for the crime that happened to her. There is no where in the Quran any indication to blame the rape victim instead of blaming the rapist. When and if this happens, it does not represent Islam but represents cultural understanding and man made laws, not God`s commands in the Quran.
*The so called sex slaves, or captives of wars are not permitted in Islam, nor the rape of women captured during war. No slaves are allowed any more in Islam. All the stories circulating around and found on some sites on the Internet or missionaries` books are derived from the corruption deliberately spread in the books called Hadith and Sunna which were written about 200 years after the death of the prophet Muhammad. These books do not represent Islam nor the Islamic law, but rather represent man made laws written against the commands of the prophet Muhammed and the commands of God in the Quran. None of these Hadith stories and its corruption represent Islam, and should never be used to represent Submission(Islam). Submission is represented by God`s law (Quran alone) and it is very clear in the Quran. A book, that God called complete, perfect and fully detailed. Islam holds the highest moral values when it comes to the prisoners of wars and their rights. Women captured during war time are not possession of the victorious army as some claim, but they are to be treated like all prisoners of wars with respect and dignity. Islam does not give any permission to abuse these women, use them as sex slaves, rape them or force them to marry anyone. If any Muslim army broke these laws at any time during the old days or recent days, they were only representing their own failure and they never represented Islam (Submission). Their action cannot be considered representing Islam as much the action of Adolf Hitler cannot be considered as representing the peaceful loving side of Christianity. For the Rest CLICK HERE
trying to stir hornet`s nest;) (pls. note the icon)
am not following the entire debate here... just a quck reply to your query...but before that a personal comment...contrary to deeply held misperceptions there is nothing in qur`an or islam that prohibits use of common sense to address an issue!
also, bhai sahib a rape is a rape is a rape....it is a gross violation of another person`s body (woman or man) and the religion of the victim should be furthest from anyone`s mind!
(the following is a fairly accurate reflection on the subject. some of the language is harsh but fairly accurate and representative of the real islam as i understand ...so help me Allah!-t)
The victims of rape, if they notify the authority immediately, will have enough proofs to convict most, if not al,l the accused rapists, as the physical facts including semen, saliva, blood, hair, fibers, skin scraps, bite marks,.....etc. are so many and easy to identify to convict the rapist. There is no truth to the claimed rumor that the rape victim has to present four witnesses to prove the rape when there are so many other physical proofs.
*Islam (Submission) treats both men and women equally and a woman victim of rape cannot be blamed for the crime that happened to her. There is no where in the Quran any indication to blame the rape victim instead of blaming the rapist. When and if this happens, it does not represent Islam but represents cultural understanding and man made laws, not God`s commands in the Quran.
*The so called sex slaves, or captives of wars are not permitted in Islam, nor the rape of women captured during war. No slaves are allowed any more in Islam. All the stories circulating around and found on some sites on the Internet or missionaries` books are derived from the corruption deliberately spread in the books called Hadith and Sunna which were written about 200 years after the death of the prophet Muhammad. These books do not represent Islam nor the Islamic law, but rather represent man made laws written against the commands of the prophet Muhammed and the commands of God in the Quran. None of these Hadith stories and its corruption represent Islam, and should never be used to represent Submission(Islam). Submission is represented by God`s law (Quran alone) and it is very clear in the Quran. A book, that God called complete, perfect and fully detailed. Islam holds the highest moral values when it comes to the prisoners of wars and their rights. Women captured during war time are not possession of the victorious army as some claim, but they are to be treated like all prisoners of wars with respect and dignity. Islam does not give any permission to abuse these women, use them as sex slaves, rape them or force them to marry anyone. If any Muslim army broke these laws at any time during the old days or recent days, they were only representing their own failure and they never represented Islam (Submission). Their action cannot be considered representing Islam as much the action of Adolf Hitler cannot be considered as representing the peaceful loving side of Christianity. For the Rest CLICK HERE
#57 Posted by mohar11 on June 16, 2005 8:50:41 am
ClosetMullah32 - give it up man. Accept that islam is full of fascist ideas against kufrs and it has been a powerful source of inspiration for muslim desperados thorugh the years, as it is now.
#56 Posted by hamidm2 on June 16, 2005 8:46:05 am
Re: # 52
ntsyed,
........ just for the record ..........i am against capital punishment under any circumstances - no one has the right to take another person`s life even if he is a pedophile murderous mullah .......... and for the same reason, i am also against abortion even if it results in the birth of a jihadi who will grow up to be a suicider or homicider ..........of course, i am all for expanding gitmo to accomodate the scum of the earth ............
ntsyed,
........ just for the record ..........i am against capital punishment under any circumstances - no one has the right to take another person`s life even if he is a pedophile murderous mullah .......... and for the same reason, i am also against abortion even if it results in the birth of a jihadi who will grow up to be a suicider or homicider ..........of course, i am all for expanding gitmo to accomodate the scum of the earth ............
#55 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 16, 2005 8:14:26 am
Travel ban on rape victim lifted BUT WITH A TWIST : BBC REPORTS
Mukhtar Mai decided to go public about the rape
The Pakistan government has lifted a foreign travel ban on the victim of a high profile gang rape, Mukhtar Mai.
But Ms Mai has told the BBC that her passport has been confiscated so the move is meaningless.
The ban has prevented Ms Mai from taking up an invitation from human rights group Amnesty International to travel to the United States.
Officials had said she had to stay in Pakistan until court cases around the rape were resolved.
But critics said the move was a ploy intended to protect Pakistan`s international image.
Brother`s offence
The office of Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz issued a brief statement on Wednesday announcing that Ms Mai had been taken off the Exit Control List that names people who are not allowed out of Pakistan.
Pakistani rights groups say Ms Mai (left) has shown courage
On the same day Ms Mai spent two hours at the US consulate in Islamabad but did not obtain a visa.
US officials say that Ms Mai had withdrawn her request for the visa.
Women rights activists say that this is because she has come under unprecedented pressure from the government not to travel to the US.
Ms Mai subsequently told the BBC by mobile telephone from a secret location that the Pakistani authorities had confiscated her passport.
Ms Mai was raped by several men in 2002, allegedly on the orders of a self-styled village council of influential feudal leaders.
The punishment was allegedly ordered because of a sexual indiscretion allegedly committed by her younger brother.
The case continues to attract international attention. Twelve men are currently behind bars in connection with the case.
In March the Lahore High Court ordered acquitted five men sentenced to death for the rape and reduced the sentence of another to life imprisonment.
The court said there was insufficient evidence in the initial trial, which was conducted by an anti-terrorism court.
The government of the province of Punjab subsequently ordered the detention of 12 men originally implicated in the case. The Lahore High Court has now said they should be released.
`Pressure`
Ms Mai said earlier this week that she had been kept under ``virtual house arrest`` in her home village.
Officials said they were acting entirely in her interests by assigning several dozen police officers to guard her in her home village.
Non-government organisations and activists campaigning for women`s rights say that the restrictions on Ms Mai`s movements have reflected the pressure the government is putting on her.
They say the government has shot itself in the foot by introducing the measures, because her case is well known internationally.
The government is fighting an appeal in the Supreme Court against the Lahore High Court overturning the convictions of the men sentenced to death for the gang rape.
Mukhtar Mai decided to go public about the rape
The Pakistan government has lifted a foreign travel ban on the victim of a high profile gang rape, Mukhtar Mai.
But Ms Mai has told the BBC that her passport has been confiscated so the move is meaningless.
The ban has prevented Ms Mai from taking up an invitation from human rights group Amnesty International to travel to the United States.
Officials had said she had to stay in Pakistan until court cases around the rape were resolved.
But critics said the move was a ploy intended to protect Pakistan`s international image.
Brother`s offence
The office of Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz issued a brief statement on Wednesday announcing that Ms Mai had been taken off the Exit Control List that names people who are not allowed out of Pakistan.
Pakistani rights groups say Ms Mai (left) has shown courage
On the same day Ms Mai spent two hours at the US consulate in Islamabad but did not obtain a visa.
US officials say that Ms Mai had withdrawn her request for the visa.
Women rights activists say that this is because she has come under unprecedented pressure from the government not to travel to the US.
Ms Mai subsequently told the BBC by mobile telephone from a secret location that the Pakistani authorities had confiscated her passport.
Ms Mai was raped by several men in 2002, allegedly on the orders of a self-styled village council of influential feudal leaders.
The punishment was allegedly ordered because of a sexual indiscretion allegedly committed by her younger brother.
The case continues to attract international attention. Twelve men are currently behind bars in connection with the case.
In March the Lahore High Court ordered acquitted five men sentenced to death for the rape and reduced the sentence of another to life imprisonment.
The court said there was insufficient evidence in the initial trial, which was conducted by an anti-terrorism court.
The government of the province of Punjab subsequently ordered the detention of 12 men originally implicated in the case. The Lahore High Court has now said they should be released.
`Pressure`
Ms Mai said earlier this week that she had been kept under ``virtual house arrest`` in her home village.
Officials said they were acting entirely in her interests by assigning several dozen police officers to guard her in her home village.
Non-government organisations and activists campaigning for women`s rights say that the restrictions on Ms Mai`s movements have reflected the pressure the government is putting on her.
They say the government has shot itself in the foot by introducing the measures, because her case is well known internationally.
The government is fighting an appeal in the Supreme Court against the Lahore High Court overturning the convictions of the men sentenced to death for the gang rape.
#54 Posted by Faruk on June 16, 2005 8:08:35 am
Re: hamdm2 #31
What made you think that our “nuts” are better than your “nuts”.
Faruk
What made you think that our “nuts” are better than your “nuts”.
Faruk
#53 Posted by Faruk on June 16, 2005 8:08:05 am
Re: hamdm2 #31
What made you think that our “nuts” are better than your “nuts”.
Faruk
What made you think that our “nuts” are better than your “nuts”.
Faruk
#52 Posted by ntsyed on June 16, 2005 8:03:51 am
Why am I not surprised by convenient omission of the Shar`ia court`s capital punishment for the 6 perpetrators, which was overturned by the civil/secular/british/western court system two years later. A punishment the AJ`s ilk et al see fit for the crime but hesitate to admit, unless it`s delivered by any system other than Shar`ia.
Indeed, admission of this minor detail would be a travesty and bad publicity for the `fair and square` seculars and their western patrons.
hamidm2`s sarcasm is not entirely that after all, albeit his antithetical intentions.
:-)~~
PS:
tahmed32, I`m a 100% with you on your argument with DM. However, I think you`re confusing Shar`ia with Fatwa in #48. But don`t worry, you`re still the man on this one, so please don`t relent.
Jazak-Allah for your effort :-)~~
#51 Posted by hamidm2 on June 16, 2005 7:54:03 am
all mush needed was a little slap on the wrist ! ....... it is nice to see the natives fall in line ....
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 16, 2005; Page A22
After a stern protest by the Bush administration, Pakistan yesterday lifted travel restrictions imposed on a Pakistani gang-rape victim, freeing her to visit the United States for a series of high-profile speeches.
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 16, 2005; Page A22
After a stern protest by the Bush administration, Pakistan yesterday lifted travel restrictions imposed on a Pakistani gang-rape victim, freeing her to visit the United States for a series of high-profile speeches.
#50 Posted by dost_mittar on June 16, 2005 7:49:35 am
tahmed32#48:
``You also posted a reference from the Quran concerning ``those whom your right hand possesses`` as being concubines. Only a wild stretch of imagination would consider this equivalent to condoning rape of non-muslim women, which is what you had said.``
They were not concubines or mistresses, but wives, daughters and sisters of unbelievers defeated by the Prophet and his soldiers who were legitimised as their ``right hand possession``.
``While I realize from the evidence on chowk that insulting minority religions is accepted practice among Indians (as evidenced by their posts), I am hoping you will be able to rise above the level of the majority of your countrymen.``
Corretion: Criticising all religions is an accepted practice among Indians. The trouble is that when I condemn Hindu religion for heinous human rights abuses in their religion, such as sati, untouchability, plight of widows or even criticise Ram and Krishan, they don`t even try to defend it, except a measly ``yes, but we are doing something about it``
``You also posted a reference from the Quran concerning ``those whom your right hand possesses`` as being concubines. Only a wild stretch of imagination would consider this equivalent to condoning rape of non-muslim women, which is what you had said.``
They were not concubines or mistresses, but wives, daughters and sisters of unbelievers defeated by the Prophet and his soldiers who were legitimised as their ``right hand possession``.
``While I realize from the evidence on chowk that insulting minority religions is accepted practice among Indians (as evidenced by their posts), I am hoping you will be able to rise above the level of the majority of your countrymen.``
Corretion: Criticising all religions is an accepted practice among Indians. The trouble is that when I condemn Hindu religion for heinous human rights abuses in their religion, such as sati, untouchability, plight of widows or even criticise Ram and Krishan, they don`t even try to defend it, except a measly ``yes, but we are doing something about it``
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