Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

Re: # 48

tahmed,

.........you are a shameless obscurantist, hiding behind the nonsense of ``this is in the koran`` or ``that is in not in the koran``............... the fact of the matter is that the hadith and sunnah might reflect the dubious, often contradictory and problematic practices of the prophet, but they are still part and parcel of islam, whether you like it or not ...........denial and delusion does not change the facts .........

....... what is the punishment for rape according to the koran ?............ can you find it anywhere in the koran ?.............. no?.........okay, then dost-mittar is right because according to the sharia, the punishment for raping an infidel is not the same as that for raping a muslima .............

....... accept the facts and get on with it ......

dost mittar #46 I checked unplugged, and see there nothing that cannot be discussed right here on the front page where you made the comment. Specifically you ask: ``Now, if you can give a CONCRETE answer to the question: what is the sharia punishment for the rape of a non-muslim woman by a muslim and what kind of witness is required to prove the crime, I would do what you wanted me to do. ``

The concrete answer is this: You referred to the Quran in #40, not to the sharia. So please dont change the subject.

In any case, sharia is not the word of God. It is the edict of the muslim king as implemented through the qazis who were beholden to him for their livelihood.

You also posted a reference from the Quran concerning ``those whom your right hand possesses`` as being concubines. Only a wild stretch of imagination would consider this equivalent to condoning rape of non-muslim women, which is what you had said.

While I realize from the evidence on chowk that insulting minority religions is accepted practice among Indians (as evidenced by their posts), I am hoping you will be able to rise above the level of the majority of your countrymen.

Dost-mittar #40: Interesting reply. Quite accurate, by the way. I think there maybe a lot of pressure to not let Mai get too much exposure, by the sitting MNAs. The unraveling of the landed jagirdari system, is their biggest fear..........

````Neither the quran nor the Prophet condoned the rape of a woman, except of the kafir variety``

I didn`t know this. I am surprised you threw this in there. If Mai would have been Christian, it would have, then been alright, according to your understanding. Could you tell me where this is allowed. I didn`t know I was allowed to rape women of the, ``kafir`` variety. I learn something new from you, regarding Islam, every week..........

tahmed32:

Please visit unplugged. Thanks!

further to #44: I have to go for now, but will look forward to an honest response (which I have come to expect from you after all these years on chowk) from you and will be glad to get back to the rest of #40 later if you wish.

dost mittar #43 Lets not get into legalese (``qaulifying clause``). Coming from you, the canard is indeed disappointing. Being a gentleman, I hope you will realize retract it and apologize (as I suggested), rather than push it under the rug as you propose.

tahmed32#41:

I do not want a qualifying clause to a sentence in my post to derail the topic of discussion. But we can come back to that subject on a more appropriate thread. Sorry to disappoint you.

Mukhtaran Mai free to travel outside Pakistan

It took US pressure to get the government to undo its outrage. I wonder what the fools and oppressors of the weak in Islamabad think about their bloody image that they are so concerned with.

dost mittar #40 you write ``Neither the quran nor the Prophet condoned the rape of a woman, except of the kafir variety``

I was surprised that you - who should know better - would write this canard about the holy book of muslims and of the prophet. I suggest you retract this statement along with an apology, or (if you believe it be true), provide the source of your information.

Mukhtaran Mai to me is a big heroine who should be considered for a Nobel prize for her courage and bravery.

But let`s be fair and honest about this and not use it to beat our favourite bad guys, the mullahs and the faujis. Neither the quran nor the Prophet condoned the rape of a woman, except of the kafir variety; the village mullah in this case was the one who is said to have been instrumental in bringing this case into the open.

The fauji government did its best, and is doing its best to bring justice to Bibi. If it has not been able to do so, the blame should lie in the western justice system which puts excessive burden of proof on the victim. The system breaks down when witnesses are too afraid or otherwise unwilling to testify against criminals. It happened to Sanwari Devi in India, it happened in Canada to the accused of Air India bombers, and it happened in the U.S where the government had to use IRS to nail Mafia people.

The government did try to save the country from getting a bad international image. This is what every government does and Faujis are no different in this regard. What they can be accused of is acting so clumsily that they have ended up doing the opposite of what they wanted; Pakistan is getting a much blacker eye than it would have if they would have let Mukhtaran Bibi travel. She had nothing against the government and could have been asked to cooperate while abroad to give due recognition to the support that she has received from the government and civil society. But that kind of deeper thinking may be beyond those who wear big boots.

why NGo wants to take mukhtaran outside country.
she need justice from the country men where she belongs.her name is striked off from the
ECL list , ordered from USA.BUSH should have ordered Pakistan to arrest the culprits.
After all we are working for them.istead of OSAMA they captured mai.what a nation!

Re: # 34
1- Mr fnahmad have courts of law so far found enough evidence to convict Zardari? Does it mean he is innocent? The highest court of law declared that there is NO law of the country that could bar Shahbaz Sharif coming back to his country … did it make any difference?
Can you imagine a scenario where courts in Pakistan would deliver a verdict declaring Mush usurper while he is on throne?

*Well all these examples are of political cases nd its altogether a different domain having very different reasons. The current issue is totally non political nd due to our emotional nature as a nation a gud opportunity for both politicianz nd NGOz to exploit it for their vested interests. All over the world the courts dont take emotional decisions they work on evidence. You can`t give death penalty 2 the accused just because the sentiments of masses are against them. If the whole things have actually taken place as stated then its the duty of police to collect all evidences to strengthen the case. If you think sanely you can`t blame the judiciary.

2-What rubbish you are talking about man?

*Well I have right to give my opinion and you have right to disagree. But mind your language. I do care for your sentiments but you can`t take a decision about someones death based upon sentiments.

3-If I may ask you …any relationship with Mastois (rapists of Mukhtaran) or Sharifuddin Pirzada (nother habitual rapist)?

Definately its again a sentimental approach towards what ever I said. I have nothing to do with any of the parties. All I said before and I still say that things should be taken rationally.

Bloody well, in your weird world Dr Shazia Khalid is an imposter, Mukhtraran is phoney, Veena Hayat is sham … only Mastois, Hammad and Murwat are angels.
Should we do a ba-jamaat dua that you should go through a similar situation … only to enhance your empathy and strengthen your understanding?

*Again its just an unreasonable and childish behaviour. If you have any arguments you have every right 2 speak out. But in a reasonable manner.

Re: # 31

I agree!!.I saw an interview of the muftis on tv where they alleged that the woman in question, Imrana, must have made advances to her father-in-law, and therefore she`s equally guilty and both the old man and she must be punished.Meanwhile, neighbors interviewed said that the old man had a history of making advances to his daughters-in-law and the other brothers just moved away and didn`t report it to anyone in authority.Imrana meanwhile says she will abide by the decision of the Sharia.We`re equally crazy this side of the border.

Also, Jajjhar district supt. of Police Hanif Qureshi, in Haryana state, says on national tv that there is no vendetta against Mansour Ali Khan Pataudi and he must surrender to police to answer charges about the endangered black buck in the trunk of his car.Another case of madness in my country.Why can`t they slap a fine and let him off?.Why this drama?.And, tax payers money pays for these investigations.Meanwhile, `real` criminals traipse through without let or hindrance.What are we gonna do?.

subedar #34 Perfect nishaana, sir. Right between the eyes. If I may say so.

People seem to be associating Mukhtar Mai`s rape with maulvis. I don`t think any maulvis were involved. I believe the local maulvi actually helped her. And I think she is, herself, now, teaching Quran, in her own school.

In her case, it was a panchayat based tribal/feudal judiciary system, which gave the order.........Apparently, everyone seem bent on using her incidence to push their own points. I think people should figure out who the guilty party is, and highlight them.......

It is all a question of authority. Whenever one entity has authority over another, it can get away with anything it wants..........All such incidences happen in the tribal/feudal areas..........That whole system needs to be changed...........

Mr fnahmad have courts of law so far found enough evidence to convict Zardari? Does it mean he is innocent?
The highest court of law declared that there is NO law of the country that could bar Shahbaz Sharif coming back to his country … did it make any difference?
Can you imagine a scenario where courts in Pakistan would deliver a verdict declaring Mush usurper while he is on throne?

What rubbish you are talking about man?

If I may ask you …any relationship with Mastois (rapists of Mukhtaran) or Sharifuddin Pirzada (nother habitual rapist)?

Bloody well, in your weird world Dr Shazia Khalid is an imposter, Mukhtraran is phoney, Veena Hayat is sham … only Mastois, Hammad and Murwat are angels.
Should we do a ba-jamaat dua that you should go through a similar situation … only to enhance your empathy and strengthen your understanding?