Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

ntsyed sahib:
#223

sigh..

we always seem to be talking at cross purposes.

miriam

Re: # 214

dear sis miriam,

Thank you for the wonderful précis of #208, although you missed the self-criticism part.

Rest assured, Allah is All-Powerful and All-Knowing and it`s more important for His critics to emerge unscathed than Him. However, I suppose it`s a bit late for that if you`ve been following this board closely. But then again I may be asking too much of you.

Good luck with the revival of your forefathers` religion with hamidm`s coronation as a prophet, although I can`t say if I`m jealous of the bugger. But please don`t complain later on about why a woman was sidelined for this post. hehehe... ;-)~~

ciao
ntsyed :-)~~

Re: # 212

arjun,

look on the bright side...you have the rest of this life and then six more to recover from the dizziness induced by temporal`s #196.

ciao,
ntsyed :-)~~

PS:
I make it a point not to engage in a debate just for debating, particularly with imbeciles; hamidm is an exception because of his Charlie Chaplin-esque silent noisiness.

Re: # 210

hamidm,

LOL......now is this your right right or the right in the mirror or the other right?

ntsyed :-)~~

ps:

sorry that link does ot work...thius one will

now back to mai and please check out and support ANNA

miriam #217:

daGooders

i begin in the name of Allah the Most Beneficent and Merciful ( thank God!) and quoting my friend dost-mittar:(#216 by dost-mittar on June 19, 2005 9:47am PT
I apologise to the author of this article and others for causing the debate to move to a topic which has nothing to do with Mukhtaran Mai`s case.

so amma-baad!

larki! don`t start me on the religious sensibilities of forefathers...whose forefathers anyway?..mine are deader than i...hmmmm....does it mean i am already dead? since i do not think or feel dead....yet........well that would be another digression for another time:)...in the good old days...speaketh the old curmudgeon (#210)....don`t you be swayed by his rustic arguments....swayed did i say?...gee whiz i surprise myself this sunday morning...while sammi and other are doing the nyt supplements and pasting them for the imbecilic ignoramuses am pontificating on swaying which will bring me to swing....yeah, as in swinging...no... no, not that swinging....( that my dear laRki would be the subject of yet another digression)...so back to swinging..the kind i had in my mind in conjunction with my/our forefathers...yeah...the me tarzan-u-jane or me allarakha-u-rampyari variety...but... i wonder...( i should not wonder so much...advised the well educated quack while prescribing more medicines to remove the ill effect of others that were prescribed to overcome the earlier ones which failed to deliver...speak of human body`s resistance ..now that is another digression: the human body...now your wise words in #217...so, what you’re saying is that we should convert back to the religion of our forefathers.

hmmm….there’s a thought. fine, commission our resident poet laureate (temp) to draw up a charter; 10 bulleted points no more…verbosity is old-hat. you lead the way, and i’ll send out the invitations. where on earth is temp when you need him!? ...you heard that amrita about verbocity?...khair...am no sure i can over ride in ten-bullet capsules centuries of mismanagement and obfuscations and diversions and blood and venom spilled and exhausted...but my mother always said you`re bright tempo...now remembering mother on father`s day would be another digression...so...i do not waiver away from the topic at hand sufficiently do i?...so from mother to mai mukhtaran...do attend that nyc and dc protest meet...khair..back to ten-bullet prescription...surprise surprise... you are new here...let me introduce and offer the nyc franchise for the best little hidden secret this side of oil-free pakoras that mahajirzadeh concocted or was it the zippered shalwar for men?...khair...my saving grace will be the new sect...as i have hinted the local franchises is available in most major territories...there is a oft repeated thing i use to say here...this is in a sense a prelude...pehlay insaan phir musalmaan: pehlay khuda phir rasool: pehlay taaleem phir tafheem...prelude? no more like an ultimate sequel...

khair here is the deal for the new sect...sorry only eight bullets!

* core mantra be good
* books-No
* prophet-No
* dogma-No
* rituals-No
* what are the associate called> daGooders
* how can they practice good without Book, Prophet, Rituals, Dogma? Just by following their conscience
* any conversion required? No

now back to mai and please check out and support ANNA

Glad to see miriamk`s brilliant post getting the attention it deserved, thanks to ana.

Ultimately, IMHO, all this passion about religion can be justified only if people can clearly answer some key questions, such as:

(1) What is this beast called religion? How do we recognize it when we see it?
(2) where do religions comes from?
(3) What are religions for?
(4) Can religions change?
(5) How can religions change?

How we answer these questions will determine how we live and what kind of societies we create for ourselves and for our children. I don`t think there is any escaping that very simple conclusion.

hamidm
#210

so, what you’re saying is that we should convert back to the religion of our forefathers.
hmmm….there’s a thought. fine, commission our resident poet laureate (temp) to draw up a charter; 10 bulleted points no more…verbosity is old-hat. you lead the way, and i’ll send out the invitations. where on earth is temp when you need him!?

I apologise to the author of this article and others for causing the debate to move to a topic which has nothing to do with Mukhtaran Mai`s case.

Romair#202:

``Had Dost-Mittar carried out a debate on the subject, with educated interactions. That would be one thing. But to just plainly, without rhyme or reason, making such horrendous declarations about Muslims, is unacceptable.``

I am sorry that you are trying to mislead Anil although I am not too sure if you are being very successful. Is it me who is not engaging in debate?

-You are trying to use an old and tried technique - distort someone`s statement and then ask them to defend that distortion. I am obviously not going to do that. Where did I make a horrendous declaration about Muslims? Have I ever said that Muslims are bad, that they are killing or raping non-muslims? I think it is you who have successfully inflamed people; someone on Unplugged warned that they would kill me if I went to Pakistan again.

- You are the one who is not engaging in real debate despite posting 500-word posts. You have not said that my quotation on the quran was incorrect; ntsyed at least responded to it.

- You keep on repeating that my statement leads to racial profiling of Muslims. I have already said that racial profiling depends upon behaviour and not on what`s in a book. If the Hindu Tamils in Sri Lanka had committed suicide attacks quoting Geeta and Vedas and other Hindus sympathised with them, they too would be profiled.

-As for comments on other religions, one could perhaps make such a case about poeple`s personal faith. But in today`s world, politial islam affects all of us, including non-muslims; one needs to try to understand its sources, namely, the quran and hadees and point out to those things which are the basis of political islam. Even if you want to blame everything on the mullahs, they too get their inspiration and strength from the same two sources.

-As an aside, tahmed, urstruly, ntsyed, naqshbandi, sattar and hamidm have divergent views on Islam but their posts do reveal a deep study of the quran and hadees. I do not get the same impression from your 500-word posts.

Ntsyed Saheb:
#208

I agree with you about the purpose of laws in that they theoretically (not always in reality) provide recourse to those of us who are law-abiding, and punish those who violate laws regardless of proscription (from the Book or society).

But there`s a minority, which has hijacked islam from the rest of us. And frankly, i’m still scratching my head over this one. When and how did this happen? In the dead of night…i don’t know. But these Barbarians at the Gate tyrannizing the rest of us have an awful lot of power from where i’m standing, and they provide refuge to those who violate religious or secular laws.

I’m not about removing the Book from the equation. My point is that a faction of muslims (mostly men) has adulterated the “spirit” of the Book. And i think the reason that has happened is that muslims haven’t been allowed to critique the institutionalized version of islam. This has given way to a very inimical type of dogma.

I have never understood the muslim world`s reluctance to be self-critical. If God is truly all-powerful and all-knowing shouldn`t he emerge from this criticism unscathed? What are we so afraid of?

hamidm #210 you write ``according to koranists like tahmed and traditionalists like urstruly, is the source of all knowledge .``

I am afraid hamidm, but you flunk english comprehension yet again!! You are no less close-minded than the mullahs you rail at. Let me explain...

I maintain (always have on chowk),

1. that the basic message of the Quran is for the individual to use his God-given senses (eyes, ears, and above all common sense) to distinguish between right and wrong. The Quran is not a book on political science, or natural sciences.

2. That one need not read the Quran to understand this message - one need not even be a religious person to understand this. Indeed,

There!! I have tried to make my views on religion as simple as I can. And this is what I have consistently stood for for years ... but you still are either to stupid to understand this (which I dont think is the case) or simply unwilling. And that is why you are no different than the mullahs you rail against who also refuse to use their God-given senses.

#208 by ntsyed on June 19, 2005 2:03am PT



There were decent men and women back before the `Books`, but their `reasoning` was not heeded by the pimps, paupers, and princely alike who were hell-bent on exploitation of the weaker sex by any means they could, as is the case today. As I watched on CNN not too long ago, people are peddling underage girls (as young as 5) as prostitutes in Cambodia. And guess what, they have adult customers for these girls; from the enlightened world too.


So your whole defense of your religion is based on lowering the bar to the level of child-molesters who travel to cambodia?

That`s almost as idiotic as the ``9/11 was a zionist plot because muslims would never do such a thing``

So now the paki mulitary junta is making enquiries about the families of the pak-americans who invited mukhtaran? brilliant PR strategy....

From the world famous(in Pakistan) daily times or yasser hamdani fame)

POSTCARD USA: Mukhtar Mai proves Manto right —Khalid Hasan

Mukhtar Mai gave the regime an opportunity to redeem itself. It failed to do so, in the bargain earning universal condemnation for both itself and the country. Under the president’s orders, vast sums of money are being spent to sell a “softer image” of Pakistan abroad, but ironically when an opportunity came the government’s way to show that Pakistan is both enlightened and moderate, it was blown. Isn’t it obvious that the regime lacks conviction, except the conviction to stay in power as long as it can, regardless of what it takes!

The tremendous wave of international sympathy for Mukhtar Mai and the courage with which she has stood up for the persecuted and violated women of Pakistan, sadly enough, has brought the government of her country and the country itself much ridicule and contempt. Pakistan’s name, as it was, was mud anyway; but the mud is now even muddier. And while this sad drama has been in progress, the General is somewhere down under, though only he can tell what he is doing there.

However, I compliment him on having had the courage to say that it was he who decided that Mukhtar Mai should not go abroad. It is nice to see the buck stop where it never stops in our country.

I know the group of Pakistani doctors behind the invitation to Mukhtar Mai to speak at a symposium in Texas next month on violence against women. She was not the only one invited, Dr Nuzhat Ahmad of the Asian American Network against Abuse of Women said on Friday. Invitations had also gone out to Abid Hasan Manto, Anis Haroon of Aurat Foundation and even Liaquat Baloch. Mushahid Hussain was invited too, but in a rare show of modesty, he declined, saying it was not his area of expertise.

Dr Nuzhat Ahmad said she first spoke to Mukhtar Mai two months ago and found her simple, soft-spoken, committed, brave and clear-headed. She said it was regrettable that their network was being maligned as being intent on embarrassing Pakistan and giving it a bad name. “We are no less Pakistani than those who are trying to sit in judgment on us,” she said. “In fact, had Mukhtar Mai been permitted to come, it would have helped Pakistan stand tall,” she added.

Dr Ahmad said the group’s repeated attempts to get in touch with the ambassador in Washington had proved fruitless. She asked, “Why is it being presumed that we are not on the same side as the country’s official representatives? We are distressed by the present situation, but it is not of our making.”

She said inquiries were beginning to be made about those who organised the Mukhtar Mai visit. There had been calls made in an effort to ferret out information about the network’s members and their families back in Pakistan. She did not wish to say who was making the calls and on behalf of whom. However, it is not difficult to guess either the source of the calls or the reason they are being made. After all, it will be in keeping with the strategy adopted against Mukhtar Mai. If Ambassador Jehangir Karamat knows anything about this, it is not for me to spell out what he should do.

Re: # 195

miriamk,

........... don`t be silly !...... of course we need the book to tell us whether rape is right or wrong .............

.............. in the good old days, before yaweh and el (and later on al-lah) appeared on the scene, we were allowed to rely on our common sense by the local gods and demi gods and, more or less, we could decide for ourselves whether rape and infanticide and eating pork were good or bad ........... but ever since the universal god, yaweh, took over the reins of the universe we have had to rely on him to tell us what to do and what not to do .......... look, old man abraham was willing to kill his own son because he wanted him to - was that right ?............ how do we know he doesn`t want us to rape certain women?.............. after all, it is common knowledge that they are the source of most of the fitna, strife and bad stuff that exists in the world today ............

......... let`s not forget that the book, according to koranists like tahmed and traditionalists like urstruly, is the source of all knowledge ...........it is the mother of all reference books ..........

Another Op-Ed column on Mukhtaran Mai by Kristoff in The New York Times. According to Faiz:
Haiy ahl-e-dil kay leaye abb yeh nazm-e-bast-o-kushad
Keh sang-o-khisht muqqayad hain aur sagg aazad

(Now, this is the order of `arrest and release` for the people of the heart
That the `stones and bricks` are locked away and the dogs are set free)

---

A Free Woman

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 19, 2005
After the Pakistani government tired of kidnapping Mukhtaran Bibi, holding her hostage and lying about it, I finally got a call through to her.

Pakistani officials had just freed Ms. Mukhtaran and returned her to her village. She was exhausted, scared, relieved, giddy and sometimes giggly - and also deeply thankful to all the Pakistanis and Americans who spoke up for her.

Skip to next paragraph

Nicholas D. Kristof
Ms. Mukhtaran learning Urdu in the fourth grade classroom.



More Columns by Nicholas D. Kristof
Web Journal: KRISTOF Responds


Forum: Nicholas D. Kristof`s Columns


Nicholas D. Kristof
Ms. Mukhtaran with other students in front of the school named for her.
``I`m so thankful to everyone that they keep a woman like me in mind,`` she said fervently. Told that lots of people around the world think she`s a hero, she laughed and responded: ``God is great. If some people think I`m a hero, it`s only because of all those people who give me support.``

President Pervez Musharraf`s government is still lying about Ms. Mukhtaran, saying that she is now free to travel to the U.S. Well, it`s true that government officials removed her name from the blacklist of those barred from leaving Pakistan, but at the same time they confiscated Ms. Mukhtaran`s passport.

Let me back up. Ms. Mukhtaran is the indomitable peasant whom I first wrote about in September after visiting her in her village. Three years ago, a village council was upset at her brother, and sentenced her to be gang-raped. After four men raped her, she was forced to walk home nearly naked before a jeering crowd.

She then defied tradition by testifying against her attackers, sending them to prison, and she used compensation money to start elementary schools in her village. She herself is now enrolled in the fourth grade; a measure of her passion for education is that the day after the government released her, she was back in class.

Ms. Mukhtaran is using donations (through www.mercycorps.org) to start an ambulance service and a women`s shelter, and she is also campaigning against honor killings, rapes and acid attacks that disfigure women. But President Musharraf, defensive about Pakistan`s image, regards brutality as something to cover up rather than uproot.

So when Pakistani officials learned that Ms. Mukhtaran planned to visit the U.S. this month, they detained her and apparently tried to intimidate her by ordering the release of those convicted for her rape. This wasn`t a mistake by low-level officials.

Mr. Musharraf admitted to reporters on Friday that he had ordered Ms. Mukhtaran placed on the blacklist. And although Pakistan had claimed that Ms. Mukhtaran had decided on her own not to go to the U.S. because her mother was sick (actually, she wasn`t), the president in effect acknowledged that that was one more lie. ``She was told not to go`` to the U.S., Mr. Musharraf said, according to The Associated Press.

``I don`t want to project a bad image of Pakistan.`` he explained.

I sympathize. From Karachi to the Khyber Pass, Pakistan is one of the most hospitable countries I`ve ever visited. So, President Musharraf, if you want to improve Pakistan`s image, here`s some advice: just prosecute rapists with the same zeal with which you persecute rape victims.

Ms. Mukhtaran says she can`t talk about what happened after the government kidnapped her. But this is what seems to have unfolded: In Islamabad, government officials ferociously berated her for being unpatriotic and warned that they could punish her family and friends. In particular, they threatened to have the father of a friend fired from his job.

Fittingly, the government is facing its own pressures. Government officials have denounced Pakistani aid groups for helping Ms. Mukhtaran, and Mr. Musharraf added that they were ``as bad as the Islamic extremists.`` So now the aid groups are threatening to pull out of their partnership with the government.

Mr. Musharraf has helped in the war on terrorism and has managed Pakistan`s economy well. But in my last column, I reluctantly concluded that he is ``nuts,`` prompting a debate in Pakistan about whether this diagnosis was insolent or accurate. After Mr. Musharraf`s latest remarks, I rest my case.

On Friday, Ms. Mukhtaran told me that one of the prime minister`s aides had just called to offer to take her to the United States. It seems Mr. Musharraf wants to defuse the crisis by allowing Ms. Mukhtaran a tightly chaperoned tour of the U.S., controlled every step of her way.

``I said, `No,` `` she said. ``I only want to go of my own free will.``

Hats off to this incredible woman. President Musharraf may have ousted rivals and overthrown a civilian government, but he has now met his match - a peasant woman with a heart of gold and a will of steel.