Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

naeem, its good to have a senstive guy in pakistan ......one thing.......its not the martian women who are prone to rape..... in this soceity, all of us are... especially if the rapist will be protected.....rape is a crime against the state.... if mukhtaran has this story......anybody can.....infact she has put a face to a horrific truth which we denied to feel more secure....crime is commited everywhere, against anyone but...the state should never protect criminals........thats a leap in the dark ages....we wont sit in the house knitting our sweaters if our women are raped.......we will stand up.....dr.shazia has the same story.......to me her case was even worst....and all these cases get media aid cuz the laws are almost if not completely against the victims.....the thing is , when these leaders do this injustice to us...when they try to keep information discreet...they too get caught in the same swamp they help create.....the mysterious plain crashes, the kidnappings and the failed attempts to end exiles.....i am not hinting poetic justice.....this how the circle gets vicious.....i hope i made sense...i wanna hear more of things like this
thanx!.........Ammara

So i come back to chowk after a 2-3 day break and we are discussing Ahmedism !

Its interesting for me especially. As a college student here I have shared a house with a mix of shias, sunnis and ahmedis. The only reason we discuss religion in teh evenings in our living room is to pass time and expel energy this way when there is nothing to do and nothing is on tv. On the personal level it doesnt really matter, we do pray in each other`s mosques every now and then. Not an issue.

There have been hundreds of debates b/w each of these sects. Why get into them here on this posting? We were talking about mukhtara mai , right ?

Ahmedis pls visit the khatme-nabuwat website.
Non ahmedis pls visit the www.alislam.org website supported by muslim television ahmaddiya (MTA).

Find out about what the other believes in, respect it, and leave the remaining discussions to religious scholars to continuously debate. We cannot solve these issues or be able to prove any other wrong using this forum.

Romair, sorry for the delayed response … my head is still spinning from ntsyed’s silliness …

If Ahmadis one day become the majority … and declare sunni’s etc. non-Muslims … it would be a travesty. All this struggle would have been in vain … and Ahamdis would have become the very monster they earlier wanted to defeat. And yes, the first ones always suffer …

But I must differ on one issue. I don’t think I have the right to consider a person non-Muslim … even at a personal level. Since the term Muslim is used by Allah Almighty … I don’t think I have the right to doubt if the term “Muslim” fits a person’s faith or not. I may have disagreements with one’s views … but I must leave the issue between him and Allah.

I’ll even go as far as this: If a person claims to be a Muslim, worships a monkey, walks around naked, and admits to incest … and calls all this Islam … I am not going to declare him a non-Muslim. I may argue, if needed, that this is not what Quran teaches … but I will be extremely hesitant to label him a non-Muslim … even in my heart.

Later dude …

ntsyed,

All along I have argued on prophethood on basis of Quran, without mentioning Mirza Sahib. These issues are separate, but you bent on confusing one with the other.

At the start of this discussion, you insisted that “khattam” means last.

- I gave you several references where “khattam” is used to indicate a person’s exalted status. You did not comment.

- I then referred to views of respected scholars from Islamic history who accepted continuation of prophethood. You facetiously wondered if these were Ahmadi scholars. As it turns out, they were personalities like Shah Waliullah, Ibne Arabi, and more. You did not comment on this at all.

- I cited Quran (Surah-e-Fatiha and Durood sheriff) where believers implore Allah to bestow them with blessings, like Allah bestowed people of the past. Appearance of prophets was one of the highest blessing on these people. You failed to show why prophets are no longer a part of divine blessings.

- I have argued that completion of Law does not imply end of prophethood. Allah raised prophets to guide people back to truth as they went astray. You have failed to show why this can no longer happen.

- You raised the issue of hadith. I showed a ahdith cited by mullah … which actually proves continuation of prophethood. You did not comment.

- You asked me to prove that Abu Bakr and Omar accepted continuation of prophethood. I asked you what makes you think they believed in end of prophethood. You did not comment.

- I cited from Sayutti regarding Bibi Ayesha expressing belief in continuation of prophethood. Your position is that you do not know enough about Sayutti, so you cannot comment.

- I cited hadith where the Prophet (pbuh) called Hazrat Ali “khatam-ul-auliya”. You did not comment.

On the other hand, you seem to have suggested that all prophets come from same lineage.

- I am not aware of anything in Quran or ahadith even remotely supporting this. Quran tells us that Allah has raised prophets among every people, for guidance. Were prophets appearing in China, Brazil, South Africa, and Australia from the same lineage? How do you define lineage? When did this lineage come to an end?

Yours is an odd argument … so it must be supported by some level of reasoning. But you merely insist that one needs to read Quran as explained by ullema to fully understand this. What is so difficult about this issue that one should not study Quran himself and necessarily rely on ullema to tell them what to believe??? You failed to give any valid reason for your view.

You insist on Issa coming back, for worldwide Muslim population, after more than two thousand years of his birth.

- I pointed out that since Quran describes Issa as a prophet for Israelites, how can Issa lead the worldwide Muslim population. You did not comment.

- I showed parallels between Torah/Testaments and Quran/ahadith about ascension and reappearance of prophets, and that these are metaphors. You pleaded ignorance of Bible, and dropped the issue.


To sum things up ...

So far you have ignored reasoning that counters your view, have failed to validate your views with reasons, have made some outlandish claims but failed to provide any basis for such claims. You main response seems to be … to accept what your ullema say.

If this is the case, why discuss anything at all? If reasons do not make you review your position, why reason at all?

May I ask why this draconian cencership in chowk? I find my post at 240 missing.

As for Mai`s rape `she has the cake and eats it too`. Her alleged rapists would be saying:

Ham ko duaaen do tujhe qaatil bana dia

How many women would be wishing to be raped like that but `` yih buland martabah jise mil gia mil gia``.

Getting back to the topic at hand. How many times does the poor unfortunate lady have to be raped? First by her own village, then by the Lahori courts, then by her own wrteched country. And now, finally, self-promoting hypocrite do gooders, such as Temporal, are using her misfortune to dominate a three-ring circus act. The rape of MukhtaraN Mai will be used by Temporal and his liberal cohorts to:
Oust the military government and impose direct rule from Washington (23rd St & E Streets)
Restore the ``democratic`` regime of Benazir Bhutto
Make the courts more just (as if Chowk is a good model!)
Allow the overweight, obese, and well-fed lesbo feminazis to run in Lahore marathons
Repeal the hudood laws and replace them with lesbian lewdness

Mr. Temporal and your cohorts: Please leave the poor woman alone and stop using any excuse to further your insidious agenda.

Never have so many reaped so much mileage from one rape.

Salim

ntsyed (#261):

Continuation of prophethood is a separate matter from Mirza Sahib. Mixing them up would unnecessarily complicate the issue. I have kept them separate … and so should you.

Some comments on ahadith

Ahmadis accept ahadith as a source of wisdom and guidance … as long as they do not negate Quran. Ahadith, being works of men, are prone to human error. In case of conflict, Quran rules.

Here’s a hadith … quoted by mullah (yes, even by Urstruly as well as Naqshbandi) to support end of prophethood. Ullema tend to emphasize only the first half of this hadith … however, reading the full hadith proves the exact opposite.

The dear Prophet (pbuh) said … I am the last (akhir) prophet … and this mosque of mine is the last (akhir) mosque.

This hadith suggests that although more mosques will be built, they will be a reflection of the Prophet’s mosque. Similarly more prophets will appear, but their message will be a reflection of the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

This also addresses the issue you raised about all prophet bringing the same message from the Almighty.

Return of Issa

This is a reference to a prophet appearing among the Muslims. If you interpret it as appearance of Issa from two thousand years ago, that’s your view.

And if Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago does reappear, what will you do with Quran which describes him as a prophet for Israelites?

Old and New Testament

Granted, earlier scriptures have underdone changes at the hands of men. However, one still sees striking parallels between Torah/Testaments and Quran/hadith.

Bible mentioning ascension of prophet Elijah is strikingly similar to Quran mentioning ascension of Issa. Old Testament prophecy of Elijah reappearing is strikingly similar to ahadith regarding reappearance of Issa. And when Jesus was asked about reappearance of Elijgh, he mentioned that John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya) has appeared in the spirit of Elijah.

Are these parallels mere coincidences? In my view they suggest that at times spiritual guidance is revealed in the language of metaphors.

Perfection of religion

According to Quran, Allah guided people through prophets as they went astray. Not all prophets brought Law, as some only came to warn and to remind people. You are yet to make your point here.

Khattam-un-nabiyeen

I gave you several examples of “khattam” used to show a person’s exalted position (khattam-ul-mufasereen, for example). Furthermore, if I recall reading correctly, the dear Prophet (pbuh) called Hazrat Ali (ra) khattam-ul-auliya. I further provided you references to views of other scholars who accepted continuation of prophethood. You have not commented.

Surah-e-Fatiha

We ask Allah to guide us on path of those who earned Allah’s favors, and not path of those who earned His wrath. Quran tells us of people who earned Allah’s favors by accepting His prophets … and people who earned divine wrath by rejecting Allah’s prophets. You are yet to give valid reasons for ruling out future prophets from this picture.

You agree that there have been divinely guided people before and after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). What makes you rule out prophets from this group of divinely guided people?

Durood sheriff

Prophethood was one of many blessings among followers of Ibrahim (pbuh). You are yet to give valid reasons to rule out prophets from these blessings.

People (aal) of Ibrahim is not necessarily his blood relatives. It refers to those spiritually associated with him. And if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) belonged to lineage of Prophet Ismail (pbuh), how does this suggest that prophets can only come from blood-lineage? Are you telling me that all prophets were each others direct descendants? Where are you getting this information from?

Sahib … you are overreaching to make your point. It is time to stop speculating or merely insisting … and to give some well-grounded reasons for criticizing Ahamdi views.

Re: # 268

sattar2,

``Continuation of prophethood is a separate matter from Mirza Sahib. Mixing them up would unnecessarily complicate the issue. I have kept them separate … and so should you.``

I`m sorry, but these are directly linked to each other. The issue became complicated the day he claimed to be the prophet of Islam after Mohammad (PBUH) and started this cult and the whole shabang.

Over and over I`ve pointed out your futile attempts to twist the meanings of the Quranic verses and ahadith and quotes of the sahaba (ra) and every one and every thing you could to hammer in the justification of Mirza`s prophethood. Obviously their context doesn`t mean anything to you on this discussion, but with Romair you stress on the context.

Now you wish to separate the continuation of prophethood from Mirza `cause it`s becoming unmanageable for you.

I could still continue this discussion with you, but as I mentioned earlier I`m traveling on business/family visit, thus pressed on time, connectivity, etc.

But it should give you a clear idea that if you couldn`t convince a nobody like me, then no wonder Mirza couldn`t convince the scholars. I wish I could wish you luck in your efforts, but I don`t think Allah approves of that. So, the best I can say to you is to keep trying if you wish to waste your time on Mirza.

If it`s just the last word you wish to have, knock yourself out.


DM,
may be some other time, since I`m pressed on time right now. But it`s very simple if you read the Quran and its exegeses, Sunnah and history of the prophets by bona fide scholars of Islam. In fact, that would be more informative for you than asking a non-scholar like me. You can read non-Muslim scholars too. But as most people have experienced, the contradictions in their claims like that of Mirza Ahmed may not help you and leave you confused about various issues. Having your own interpretation of the Quran without learning the background and prevailing circumstances as and when the verses were revealed is what gets Romairs and tahmeds of the Muslim world in trouble from both sides.

cheers.

Re: # 271

Antisyed

There are innumerable claimers of prophethood and even god-hood but why single out Mirza Sahib and that too trying to knock him out on technical grounds alone. Why? Perhaps you feel you cannot do this on merit. And for that matter why single out Mukhtaran Mai when the raped-ones too are innumerable both male and female. And in her case also the court had to resort to the technical grounds. Even Zia, the pseudoislamist, had to resort to tecnical grounds in his referendom. He said if you vote for Islam that means you elect me as a President of Pakistan for 5 years. What a logic! You can do anything with the technical grounds.

There was a claiment to prophet-hood named, Aein Faatimi, an advocate, a few years ago, in Attock city, who also tried to use technical grounds to his advantage. He called him not a `Nabi` but a `Rasul` and claimed that since there is ban only on `Nabuwat` and not on `Rasalat`, he was a Rasul as his name was mentioned in the Quran. He was jailed for the chrge of blasphemy, released on bail and then killed at his home by some assailants unknown to this day.

So: `Yih martabahe buland mila jis ko mil gia`.

Long live condi rice. victory to mukhtaran mai. down with abdul hates and so-what-if-a-mere-mai-got-raped-our-image-is-more-important-than-out-ghairat pakistanis.

folks thank you and keep writing, pledging and working to dismantle the vestiges of the army-mullah nexus in pakistan

a very small victory for the righteous
a big defeat for abdul-hate`s regressionary tactics

Mukhtaran free to travel: US

WASHINGTON, June 21: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice secured a personal pledge from Pakistan that Mukhtaran Mai will be allowed to visit the United States, officials said on Tuesday.

ntsyed:

``You must be aware that all the prophets were from the line of Prophets throughout history. Since none of Mohammad’s (PBUH) sons lived long enough to continue his lineage, there could not be a prophet from amongst his (PBUH) progeny.``

Sorry to butt in this family feud. While I do not claim to understand everything about the Quran and Islam, could you please point out to any verse in the quran which validates this statement? And doesn`t it go against the claim that God sent his messengers to all nations? If all these prophets were from the same lineage, who brought the message to places like Europe, Africa, India, China and the rest of Asia?

sattar2 #: ``Yes indeed, my experiences as an Ahmadi-Muslim have colored my views.``

The Quran does, obviously, extend beyond the personal world. As does every religion in the world. As does every philosophy and system.........

However, one lives one`s life as one sees fit. In some cases, the circumstances are such that one cannot do so. So one migrates. You have done that. Now you are in a position where you can live your life, as you see fit...........

The reason Ahmedis are non-Muslims and Sunnis are Muslims, in Pakistan, is because the overwhelming majority is Sunni in Pakistan. Had the majority been Ahmedis, it is quite possible that Sunnis would have been declared non-Muslims. Shias will never be non-Muslims in Iran, but Sunnis could be someday. While Sunnis will never be non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, but Shias could be, someday........In fact, it was a Shia non-maulvi, named Bhutto, who declared Ahmedis non-Mulsims.......Now ironically, there are infant movements to declare Shias non-Muslims in Pakistan........

Relgious movements get powerful when masses convert to them. Ahmedis position will become powerful if large number of people switch to Ahmedi-ism. You are the first few generations, so you have to suffer. Much like followers of all religions suffered.......If large numbers do not follow Ahmedi-ism, then it will eventually shrink and then die off, like many other religious movements, historically............

Having said that, it is everyone`s personal rigth to consider someone a Muslim or non-Muslim. I may not consider you a Mulsim, personally. And you may not consider me one. Nothing wrong with that, as long as both of us are fair to each other. However, no State, group, scholar(s) etc. is authorized (by Islam itself) to declare someone a non-Mulsim. In fact, there is no defined mechanism in the Quran on a procedure to declare someone a non-Muslim. Should a jury do it? Should a Qazi do it? Should the State do it? Should it be may majority vote? Should a group of, ``ulema`` do it?

My $.02 for you, if you are interested: There are people, on this site, who have declared me non-Muslim (primarily because they cannot debate Islam with me, since they lack the knowledge, beyond what their, ``ulema`` have taught them).

I generally debate anything and everything with anyone. Except a few things: The moment someone declares me a non-Muslim, I don`t get into a debate with them to prove that I am a Muslim. I simply tell them f//ck off. And that is the end of it, from my side.

If someone can label me, based on thier own perverted standards, then they have basically declared me, ``guilty`` for no specific reason. Just because they think I am guilty. If I get into a debate with them to try to prove I am, ``innocent,`` then I have lost the fight before it has even begun. I have accepted that I am guilty, till proven innocent. I have allowed myself to be labelled...........From that point onwards, I will always be fighting the fight on the other person`s terms.....

echoboom #254, {``The rape of MukhtaraN Mai is still going on. Now by the NGOs and doGooders.``}

Beautifully stated. I agree with you. The MukhtaraN Mai tragedy has been hijacked by this crowd of goody goody two shoes for their own ulterior motives. Whether it`s a rape in Multan, a marathon in Lahore, or a Tsunami in the Indian Ocean, these insidious feminazis will use any ruse and any excuse to turn an event into a circus for their own designs. Kudos to you and others for recognizing this nonsense.
Salim :) My apologies about these nic changes necessitated by the unjust Chowk Staff. :)

Urstruly (#235),

You sounded like you had found something against Ahamdis. What was it …may I ask?

By referring to the “elephant” verses, you seem to be looking to validate your view that Quran does not have to make sense, it only has to be followed as ullema tell us. Can you come up with a better argument …?

I’ll be the second, after hamidm, to admit that some parts and details of Quran are not always easy to understand (although tauheed miaN remains in denial). Its basic message is easy to grasp … as it appeals to human intellect. But admittedly, some of its parts need due diligence. At times it goes on and on about stories that can be difficult to follow and hard to interpret. For starters, there is alif-lam-meem which continues to baffle me …

However, this in no way suggests that we ignore clear Quranic commandments, as well as our sense of civility, on issues of adultery, apostasy, and blasphemy … and start executing people … as suggested by your ullema. One has to be a moron to not see this blatant contradiction.

BTW, your cousin ntsyed is drowning. Are you going to idly stand by and watch? Feel free to correct him as you see fit. Earlier, when I posted Maudoodi`s views supporting return of Issa-ibne-Marriam, you expressed disagreement with Maudoodi over certain issues. Aren`t you going to share this wealth of knowledge with your cousin? C`mon now ... be a sport ...

Romair …

Agreed, in that what I stated is not exclusive to Muslims. Followers of each religion have sunk low at some point in time. I hope I am wrong, but I would be surprised if Ahmadi-Muslims fare much better with passage of time.

Often I shock fellow Ahmadis by asking them … ”who do you think will persecute the next prophet of Allah and his followers? As I get blank states, I explain … of course, it would be us Ahmadis who will make life miserable for Allah’s next prophet.

There are shades and degrees of support. Some people actively support a cause, some only approve of it, some are somewhat disinterested, while some disapprove of it although not strongly enough. I am of the opinion that a critical mass of population has to support a cause, in varying degrees, for the cause to stay alive.

Maudoodi did exploit Islam … we agree. My point is that Quran does reach beyond the individual and aims to influence social and political spheres of things. Qruan’s scope is not limited to an individual level only … but extends beyond that.

Yes indeed, my experiences as an Ahmadi-Muslim have colored my views. And that is to be expected … and that’s life. It is a rare occurrence for the entire upper echelon of ullema to band together to persecute a tiny community. It seems that confrontation with Ahmadis has exposed some of the deeper insecurities among the ummah … which obviously will result in backlash against Ahmadis and not everyone else. So yes, my experience is not a common one … and hence my views may not be shared by everyone else.