Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

``Every problem looks like the head of a nail to a man whose only tool is a hammer.`` (Bill Gates).

Chowk version of above insight: ``Every problem looks like the head of a mullah to hamidm.``

#143 by Romair on June 17, 2005 9:01am PT


Taliban are a microscopically tiny % of the Muslim community.


So what`s your point? Numbers can be used to prove a point?

The terrorist OBL has a 65% unfavorable rating in Pakistan...
either you are bad muslims who condone someone who goes against Islam or.....

ntsyed,

I believe in Quran ... and I am secure enough about my faith to poke fun at it. A little humor goes a long way. Sorry, I didn`t mean to further confuse you.

On killing non-Muslims for faith …

You earlier stated that “shirk is punishable by death”.

Click [Punishment for shirk]

When I protested, you tried to qualify it by referring to extreme conditions and designs against Islam and due consideration by the ruler of the land … etc. etc. I pointed out that the punishment for anti-state activities applies to everyone … Muslims included, but you failed to respond.

“Seal of prophets

And we finally reach the ground-zero of prophethood issue …

“Seal of Prophet” means the prophet of the highest status, the most exalted prophet. It does not mean last prophet. This is a common misconception … that even Urstruly and tahmed shared … before I corrected them. I have seen Arabic references where “khattam” is used to indicate a person’s highest status … in khattam-ul-mafasareen, khattam-ul-muhaqaqeen, khattam-ul-auliya, and khattam-ul-muhadaseen.

Quran suggests that even as it completes and perfects divine law, prophets will continue to appear to warn people and to guide them as needed. End of prophethood is a misconception that has gained more momentum in recent history. Ahadith are often misunderstood and misquoted in this context. Ahadith that support continaution of prophethood are ignored by the ullema. Some well-known scholars from Islamic history expressed their belief in continuation of prophethood through their writings.

And to answer your question … yes, I am for real …


Urstruly (#153):

… and what are you trying to prove? That Islam should be forced on others? Or that little birds tossed stones that killed elephants? Or better yet … a two thousand year old prophet resides above the clouds … and will one day (very soon?) descend down to the earth riding on shoulders of two angels? This is what your shariah has been reduced down to … so think before trying to make an absurd point.

… and btw, what is your immigration status? ANd did you pay your taxes last year??

Re: # 168 by sattar2

sattar,

To the contrary, I’ve never been confused about your confusion. Your poking fun at Quran has nothing to do with insecurity. I’m sure you’re just as secure about your mother’s chastity as I am about mine, but can you poke fun at her sexual behavior without disrespecting her? I doubt it. Again, pay attention to context and learn the meaning of the word ‘respect’, as poking fun at something revered by a billion people is very different from doing the same with yourself.

Anyhow, you may have brought up the punishment for anti-state activity and I may have remained silent since it’s a no-brainer. One such no-brainer I presented to you on this board regarding ‘raping other women’, on which you’ve decided to remain silent. Should one assume that you’re deliberately avoiding a reply? Better luck spinning things out of context next time.

I too can give you a detailed explanation of the word “khattam” along with many examples and very easily expose the Ahmedi twist to silence you. But why do so since you seem secure to poke fun at yourself.

Let’s see … since you believe in Quran, know it very well, and are very secure about the interpretation you believe in, please tell me why would there be a need for more prophets when Allah claimed that the religion has been completed in its perfection? Or do you deny that Allah ever said that?

Do you think Allah did not know today’s prevailing circumstances 1400 year ago?

If (ma’z Allah) He didn’t know, then could you direct me to ONE verse where He allows ANYONE to change this religion, which He claims to have completed with perfection, as and when needed?

If no change is required, then what’s the purpose of the prophet?

By the way, I know throughout the history many low-lives have claimed to be prophets and/or justified continuation of prophethood, but who are these ‘well-known’ scholars to have done that? Please don`t tell me Mirza Ahmed is a scholar, because managing my personal check book doesn`t qualify me as an accountant or financial planner.

ntsyed :-)~~

Re: # 168 sattar

That is ok; relax. You know this is the problem with all heretics, munafiques, and Muslim pretenders like Quadianis, Parvezis (not associated with this insect called Musharaf), Mutazalites and sort that they consider themselves to be the aflatoon and when put to test falter on just four lines of Qura`n. As your post suggests, the Qura`n actually becomes meaningless to them too. That happens when you reject the True Guide (pbuh). I am still waiting what kind of cock and bull explanation will Romair come up with. I asked him this question at another board and he tactfully managed to avoid it, you know thru his usaul modus operandi i.e. tax and immigration tripe.

anil
//... it is a defensive leap from there to state religious sanctioning of rape of non-muslims....//

Not really. The concept of kufr has been used very effectively and widely over the ages. So that basically establishes what that verse is interpreted as. Romair and closet mullah32 will of course give you some watered-down version - because that serves their agenda.

Romair,

Taliban are a small percentage of Muslim community. But so are suicide bombers and wide-eyed jihadis. This small percentage of Muslims continues to persecute Ahamdis, incite sectarian violence … while the overwhelming majority stands by. What does this tell you?

I earlier posted Maudoodi’s views on political Islam (and will avoid reposting) … which were outright scary. He continues to be regarded a top notch scholar of Islam by the ummah. Go figure.

You have been around long enough to know what Urstruly, ntsyed, and Naqsh stand for. Do you really want me to quote them to tell you what they think??? Romairrrrrr … !!!!

And while Quran does not force shariah on anyone, it does make the case for it. I gave a laundry list of issues in my earlier post … which clearly suggest so. I’ll avoid repeating it here.

Please correct this line “in post # 183 “I think it is a manufactured theory and as there is no sane person..”

Correct line. “I think it is a manufactured theory and concocted by some 20th century prophet as there is no sane person who could possibly declare any religion as a complete or a comprehensive way of life.”

#160 by ntsyed

“It is the comprehensive way of life as prescribed by Allah and lived by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) - a concept that AlephNull finds difficult to understand for now..”

Though I have serious doubts about Alephnull’s mental state (he is lunatic), but I also have a hard time swallowing the concept of “comprehensive way of life”. This I really find way out of line. I think it is a manufactured theory and as there is no sane person who could possibly declare any religion as a complete or a comprehensive way of life.

For something to be comprehensive, dynamism must cease first. As comprehensive can only be applied to static ideas or things. In this changing world, lifestyle, and needs a religion or a theory cannot be comprehensive or complete and it will have to draw on several sources to just keep up with dynamism that life presents.

Re: # 163 by HP

For something to be comprehensive, dynamism must cease first. As comprehensive can only be applied to static ideas or things.

Very true!

In this changing world, lifestyle, and needs a religion or a theory cannot be comprehensive or complete and it will have to draw on several sources to just keep up with dynamism that life presents.

Sure the world is changing rapidly, but what is religion? It`s not just a passport, nor does it interfere with technology.

If you study religions, these are ways of life; dealing strictly with the basic human behavior as per the biological composition. Have the humans changed biologically in the last 1400 years, or since Adam & Eve for that matter? Hasn`t that dynamism ceased after the birth of Eve, since we haven`t seen any other form of human reproduction other than what we know today?

Have our innate needs of propagation, eating, sleeping, anger, greed for wealth, lust for power and physical pleasures have changed? . In every era and every community, people behaved in the same manner as they do today with respect to these traits, and that`s primarily what religion deals with. So, from that perspective isn`t life static, thus can be comprehensively addressed by the religion?

What has changed over the years is the technology and the climate. Dynamism. But just because today`s Muslims are technologically inferior, it doesn`t mean they`re against technology. Nor does it mean the Islam denounces technology. Certainly it doesn`t mean the non-Muslims have gained this technological edge because of their freedom of speech, dress, sex, and what have you. They did it with education and research and hard work, while Muslims were either sleeping. Just like early Muslims established Basra as the center of knowledge for the world when the entire west was in dark ages.

So, there`s no need to change the basic Islamic behavioral codes. We just need to learn and practice them as they`re supposed to be practiced. What the Muslims are doing in the name of Islam throughout the Muslim world today is called deviance, and that`s why they`re being kicked around all over.

Thus, no it wasn`t a 20th century prophet who claimed it so. It was the 7th century Prophet (PBUH) who demonstrated it to us. The only thing is, you need to study the subject, and live the life according to those guidelines to be able to see the truth. Otherwise, regardless of what I or even if Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) tell you, it would not make any difference to you. Just as you could not understand medicine, law, engg, etc withouth thoroghly studying the particular discipline.

ntsyed :-)~~

ntsyed,

``Now tell me, if you were the victim, would you have your survivors fund the extended incarceration of your murderer and on gitmo expansion? ``

.......... the answer is a categorical and unqualified ``yes`` !.......... only mohammad crazies and jesus freaks don`t see the dichotomy between supporting capital punishment while clamoring for the rights of the unborn .......

Re: # 161

.......... only mohammad crazies and jesus freaks don`t see the dichotomy between supporting capital punishment while clamoring for the rights of the unborn .......

hamidm,

your bigotry still doesn`t answer whether a murderer should be equated with an unborn and absolutely innocent human being in terms of rights to live. Nor does it address the rights of the murdered and his/her survivors. Nor does it justify the expense in the face of endemic unemployment and homelessness.

But then again, obfuscation is your name....I forget if it`s the first, middle, or last.

Oh, now I see. Supporting capital punishment and its proper implementation would put a lot of your GIs on death row by the ICC.

In that case, carry on your rant.

;-)~~

AlephNull,

the explanation you seek is in fact very simple as opposed to comprehensive. One must start with basics which I advise you to do. Simply ponder:

1. the meaning of: There is no god but Allah, and Mohammad is His messenger.
2. what is the purpose of your existence?
3. what’s next after this life?
4. then read Quran, the life of the Prophet (PBUH)

It would be helpful for you if you don’t compare it to any other religion or ideology and maintain impartiality in the beginning to prevent muddling of your thoughts.

I hope you possess the objectivity and fortitude to do the above, in which case I wish you Good luck. Otherwise …well, good luck anyways since no one can instill the two in your mind.


dost-mitter,

I’m sorry you’ve been misled by some ill-informed Muslims as per ``Time and again, we have been told that quran is a simple document and that anyone can read and understand its message without the help of a Maulana.``

While the basic tenets of Islam are crystal clear in the Quran. However, there are a lot of things that require knowledge of the background as to when the specific verse(s) were revealed to the Prophet (pbuh); or the interpretation provided by the Prophet (PBUH) in order to understand them. In my personal opinion it was necessary because otherwise there would not be a need for a prophet - men, but most guided ones - to lead the people.

Even in case of prayers – Salah, not just invocation and supplication – and pilgrimage (Hajj), the procedure is not explained in the Quran. One has to follow the Prophet (PBUH) to perform these acts properly.

Some ill-informed Muslims reject the Traditions (actions/ sayings) of the Prophet (PBUH) on the basis that they were written 200 years after his death. While the time period is correct, these Traditions were not grabbed out of thin air. Since the day Prophet (PBUH) received the first revelation, everything he said and did was recorded by his companions (may Allah be pleased with them). Still, at the time of the compilation, each of the Traditions were verified as much as possible along with the references, names, and lineages of the narrators. Wherever these verification are weak, the traditions are rendered ‘weak/unauthentic’. Most of the weak traditions are the ones that conflict with the Quranic injuctions and Shar`ia.

Speaking of Shar`ia, with all due respect I disagree with Romair on the definition of the word. Perhaps he`s confusing Shar`ia with Fiqh (jurisprudence). Furthermore, Shar`ia is not just the legal code for the judiciary. It is the comprehensive way of life as prescribed by Allah and lived by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) - a concept that AlephNull finds difficult to understand for now.

Anyway, some of the best references you can find to understand the Quran in its entirety are translation by Yusuf Ali, commentary by Ibn Katheer, as well as the traditions of the Prophet (PBUH) by Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and Sahih Tirmidhi.

Good luck.

ntsyed :-)~~

dost mittar,

..... i hope you realize that according to the believers, which include soft-shoeing apologists like mr tahmed, islam cannot be separated from politics .............. only advani buys that line !

.......... look, theoretically it might be possible to come up with a new and improved islam that is more tolerant and less totalitarian, but as things stand now it is a pipe dream ........it might be possible in a hundred - maybe two hundred - years, but at this point islam is going through a ``revival`` that seeks to propagate a rather horrible and virulent strain of religion that is at odds with the rest of mankind ........... people like tahmed don`t count ............

.......... let`s hope that the human spirit, wich is decent at its core, will prevail over this cult of death and destruction ............

on Jay:
Jay was thrashed a few days back on Bina Shah`s board. His skepticism on the trend-for-the-good-in-Pak. being presented in that article was more in line with the reality, i guess. Sadly but quite expectedly he was right on the HR situation in Pakistan.

AlephNull:
I was responding basing my reply on the assumption of the Immutability of Quranic word. I figure, you are talking about something bigger that involves histories, cultures and the way the social forces work to propagate certain belief systems and let others die. I got nothing to say as i know very little about history and sociology etc.


cheers.