Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

naeem, its good to have a senstive guy in pakistan ......one thing.......its not the martian women who are prone to rape..... in this soceity, all of us are... especially if the rapist will be protected.....rape is a crime against the state.... if mukhtaran has this story......anybody can.....infact she has put a face to a horrific truth which we denied to feel more secure....crime is commited everywhere, against anyone but...the state should never protect criminals........thats a leap in the dark ages....we wont sit in the house knitting our sweaters if our women are raped.......we will stand up.....dr.shazia has the same story.......to me her case was even worst....and all these cases get media aid cuz the laws are almost if not completely against the victims.....the thing is , when these leaders do this injustice to us...when they try to keep information discreet...they too get caught in the same swamp they help create.....the mysterious plain crashes, the kidnappings and the failed attempts to end exiles.....i am not hinting poetic justice.....this how the circle gets vicious.....i hope i made sense...i wanna hear more of things like this
thanx!.........Ammara

So i come back to chowk after a 2-3 day break and we are discussing Ahmedism !

Its interesting for me especially. As a college student here I have shared a house with a mix of shias, sunnis and ahmedis. The only reason we discuss religion in teh evenings in our living room is to pass time and expel energy this way when there is nothing to do and nothing is on tv. On the personal level it doesnt really matter, we do pray in each other`s mosques every now and then. Not an issue.

There have been hundreds of debates b/w each of these sects. Why get into them here on this posting? We were talking about mukhtara mai , right ?

Ahmedis pls visit the khatme-nabuwat website.
Non ahmedis pls visit the www.alislam.org website supported by muslim television ahmaddiya (MTA).

Find out about what the other believes in, respect it, and leave the remaining discussions to religious scholars to continuously debate. We cannot solve these issues or be able to prove any other wrong using this forum.

Romair, sorry for the delayed response … my head is still spinning from ntsyed’s silliness …

If Ahmadis one day become the majority … and declare sunni’s etc. non-Muslims … it would be a travesty. All this struggle would have been in vain … and Ahamdis would have become the very monster they earlier wanted to defeat. And yes, the first ones always suffer …

But I must differ on one issue. I don’t think I have the right to consider a person non-Muslim … even at a personal level. Since the term Muslim is used by Allah Almighty … I don’t think I have the right to doubt if the term “Muslim” fits a person’s faith or not. I may have disagreements with one’s views … but I must leave the issue between him and Allah.

I’ll even go as far as this: If a person claims to be a Muslim, worships a monkey, walks around naked, and admits to incest … and calls all this Islam … I am not going to declare him a non-Muslim. I may argue, if needed, that this is not what Quran teaches … but I will be extremely hesitant to label him a non-Muslim … even in my heart.

Later dude …

ntsyed,

All along I have argued on prophethood on basis of Quran, without mentioning Mirza Sahib. These issues are separate, but you bent on confusing one with the other.

At the start of this discussion, you insisted that “khattam” means last.

- I gave you several references where “khattam” is used to indicate a person’s exalted status. You did not comment.

- I then referred to views of respected scholars from Islamic history who accepted continuation of prophethood. You facetiously wondered if these were Ahmadi scholars. As it turns out, they were personalities like Shah Waliullah, Ibne Arabi, and more. You did not comment on this at all.

- I cited Quran (Surah-e-Fatiha and Durood sheriff) where believers implore Allah to bestow them with blessings, like Allah bestowed people of the past. Appearance of prophets was one of the highest blessing on these people. You failed to show why prophets are no longer a part of divine blessings.

- I have argued that completion of Law does not imply end of prophethood. Allah raised prophets to guide people back to truth as they went astray. You have failed to show why this can no longer happen.

- You raised the issue of hadith. I showed a ahdith cited by mullah … which actually proves continuation of prophethood. You did not comment.

- You asked me to prove that Abu Bakr and Omar accepted continuation of prophethood. I asked you what makes you think they believed in end of prophethood. You did not comment.

- I cited from Sayutti regarding Bibi Ayesha expressing belief in continuation of prophethood. Your position is that you do not know enough about Sayutti, so you cannot comment.

- I cited hadith where the Prophet (pbuh) called Hazrat Ali “khatam-ul-auliya”. You did not comment.

On the other hand, you seem to have suggested that all prophets come from same lineage.

- I am not aware of anything in Quran or ahadith even remotely supporting this. Quran tells us that Allah has raised prophets among every people, for guidance. Were prophets appearing in China, Brazil, South Africa, and Australia from the same lineage? How do you define lineage? When did this lineage come to an end?

Yours is an odd argument … so it must be supported by some level of reasoning. But you merely insist that one needs to read Quran as explained by ullema to fully understand this. What is so difficult about this issue that one should not study Quran himself and necessarily rely on ullema to tell them what to believe??? You failed to give any valid reason for your view.

You insist on Issa coming back, for worldwide Muslim population, after more than two thousand years of his birth.

- I pointed out that since Quran describes Issa as a prophet for Israelites, how can Issa lead the worldwide Muslim population. You did not comment.

- I showed parallels between Torah/Testaments and Quran/ahadith about ascension and reappearance of prophets, and that these are metaphors. You pleaded ignorance of Bible, and dropped the issue.


To sum things up ...

So far you have ignored reasoning that counters your view, have failed to validate your views with reasons, have made some outlandish claims but failed to provide any basis for such claims. You main response seems to be … to accept what your ullema say.

If this is the case, why discuss anything at all? If reasons do not make you review your position, why reason at all?

May I ask why this draconian cencership in chowk? I find my post at 240 missing.

As for Mai`s rape `she has the cake and eats it too`. Her alleged rapists would be saying:

Ham ko duaaen do tujhe qaatil bana dia

How many women would be wishing to be raped like that but `` yih buland martabah jise mil gia mil gia``.

Getting back to the topic at hand. How many times does the poor unfortunate lady have to be raped? First by her own village, then by the Lahori courts, then by her own wrteched country. And now, finally, self-promoting hypocrite do gooders, such as Temporal, are using her misfortune to dominate a three-ring circus act. The rape of MukhtaraN Mai will be used by Temporal and his liberal cohorts to:
Oust the military government and impose direct rule from Washington (23rd St & E Streets)
Restore the ``democratic`` regime of Benazir Bhutto
Make the courts more just (as if Chowk is a good model!)
Allow the overweight, obese, and well-fed lesbo feminazis to run in Lahore marathons
Repeal the hudood laws and replace them with lesbian lewdness

Mr. Temporal and your cohorts: Please leave the poor woman alone and stop using any excuse to further your insidious agenda.

Never have so many reaped so much mileage from one rape.

Salim

ntsyed (#261):

Continuation of prophethood is a separate matter from Mirza Sahib. Mixing them up would unnecessarily complicate the issue. I have kept them separate … and so should you.

Some comments on ahadith

Ahmadis accept ahadith as a source of wisdom and guidance … as long as they do not negate Quran. Ahadith, being works of men, are prone to human error. In case of conflict, Quran rules.

Here’s a hadith … quoted by mullah (yes, even by Urstruly as well as Naqshbandi) to support end of prophethood. Ullema tend to emphasize only the first half of this hadith … however, reading the full hadith proves the exact opposite.

The dear Prophet (pbuh) said … I am the last (akhir) prophet … and this mosque of mine is the last (akhir) mosque.

This hadith suggests that although more mosques will be built, they will be a reflection of the Prophet’s mosque. Similarly more prophets will appear, but their message will be a reflection of the message of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

This also addresses the issue you raised about all prophet bringing the same message from the Almighty.

Return of Issa

This is a reference to a prophet appearing among the Muslims. If you interpret it as appearance of Issa from two thousand years ago, that’s your view.

And if Issa-ibne-Marriam from two thousand years ago does reappear, what will you do with Quran which describes him as a prophet for Israelites?

Old and New Testament

Granted, earlier scriptures have underdone changes at the hands of men. However, one still sees striking parallels between Torah/Testaments and Quran/hadith.

Bible mentioning ascension of prophet Elijah is strikingly similar to Quran mentioning ascension of Issa. Old Testament prophecy of Elijah reappearing is strikingly similar to ahadith regarding reappearance of Issa. And when Jesus was asked about reappearance of Elijgh, he mentioned that John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya) has appeared in the spirit of Elijah.

Are these parallels mere coincidences? In my view they suggest that at times spiritual guidance is revealed in the language of metaphors.

Perfection of religion

According to Quran, Allah guided people through prophets as they went astray. Not all prophets brought Law, as some only came to warn and to remind people. You are yet to make your point here.

Khattam-un-nabiyeen

I gave you several examples of “khattam” used to show a person’s exalted position (khattam-ul-mufasereen, for example). Furthermore, if I recall reading correctly, the dear Prophet (pbuh) called Hazrat Ali (ra) khattam-ul-auliya. I further provided you references to views of other scholars who accepted continuation of prophethood. You have not commented.

Surah-e-Fatiha

We ask Allah to guide us on path of those who earned Allah’s favors, and not path of those who earned His wrath. Quran tells us of people who earned Allah’s favors by accepting His prophets … and people who earned divine wrath by rejecting Allah’s prophets. You are yet to give valid reasons for ruling out future prophets from this picture.

You agree that there have been divinely guided people before and after Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). What makes you rule out prophets from this group of divinely guided people?

Durood sheriff

Prophethood was one of many blessings among followers of Ibrahim (pbuh). You are yet to give valid reasons to rule out prophets from these blessings.

People (aal) of Ibrahim is not necessarily his blood relatives. It refers to those spiritually associated with him. And if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) belonged to lineage of Prophet Ismail (pbuh), how does this suggest that prophets can only come from blood-lineage? Are you telling me that all prophets were each others direct descendants? Where are you getting this information from?

Sahib … you are overreaching to make your point. It is time to stop speculating or merely insisting … and to give some well-grounded reasons for criticizing Ahamdi views.

Re: # 268

sattar2,

``Continuation of prophethood is a separate matter from Mirza Sahib. Mixing them up would unnecessarily complicate the issue. I have kept them separate … and so should you.``

I`m sorry, but these are directly linked to each other. The issue became complicated the day he claimed to be the prophet of Islam after Mohammad (PBUH) and started this cult and the whole shabang.

Over and over I`ve pointed out your futile attempts to twist the meanings of the Quranic verses and ahadith and quotes of the sahaba (ra) and every one and every thing you could to hammer in the justification of Mirza`s prophethood. Obviously their context doesn`t mean anything to you on this discussion, but with Romair you stress on the context.

Now you wish to separate the continuation of prophethood from Mirza `cause it`s becoming unmanageable for you.

I could still continue this discussion with you, but as I mentioned earlier I`m traveling on business/family visit, thus pressed on time, connectivity, etc.

But it should give you a clear idea that if you couldn`t convince a nobody like me, then no wonder Mirza couldn`t convince the scholars. I wish I could wish you luck in your efforts, but I don`t think Allah approves of that. So, the best I can say to you is to keep trying if you wish to waste your time on Mirza.

If it`s just the last word you wish to have, knock yourself out.


DM,
may be some other time, since I`m pressed on time right now. But it`s very simple if you read the Quran and its exegeses, Sunnah and history of the prophets by bona fide scholars of Islam. In fact, that would be more informative for you than asking a non-scholar like me. You can read non-Muslim scholars too. But as most people have experienced, the contradictions in their claims like that of Mirza Ahmed may not help you and leave you confused about various issues. Having your own interpretation of the Quran without learning the background and prevailing circumstances as and when the verses were revealed is what gets Romairs and tahmeds of the Muslim world in trouble from both sides.

cheers.

Re: # 271

Antisyed

There are innumerable claimers of prophethood and even god-hood but why single out Mirza Sahib and that too trying to knock him out on technical grounds alone. Why? Perhaps you feel you cannot do this on merit. And for that matter why single out Mukhtaran Mai when the raped-ones too are innumerable both male and female. And in her case also the court had to resort to the technical grounds. Even Zia, the pseudoislamist, had to resort to tecnical grounds in his referendom. He said if you vote for Islam that means you elect me as a President of Pakistan for 5 years. What a logic! You can do anything with the technical grounds.

There was a claiment to prophet-hood named, Aein Faatimi, an advocate, a few years ago, in Attock city, who also tried to use technical grounds to his advantage. He called him not a `Nabi` but a `Rasul` and claimed that since there is ban only on `Nabuwat` and not on `Rasalat`, he was a Rasul as his name was mentioned in the Quran. He was jailed for the chrge of blasphemy, released on bail and then killed at his home by some assailants unknown to this day.

So: `Yih martabahe buland mila jis ko mil gia`.

Long live condi rice. victory to mukhtaran mai. down with abdul hates and so-what-if-a-mere-mai-got-raped-our-image-is-more-important-than-out-ghairat pakistanis.

folks thank you and keep writing, pledging and working to dismantle the vestiges of the army-mullah nexus in pakistan

a very small victory for the righteous
a big defeat for abdul-hate`s regressionary tactics

Mukhtaran free to travel: US

WASHINGTON, June 21: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice secured a personal pledge from Pakistan that Mukhtaran Mai will be allowed to visit the United States, officials said on Tuesday.

ntsyed:

``You must be aware that all the prophets were from the line of Prophets throughout history. Since none of Mohammad’s (PBUH) sons lived long enough to continue his lineage, there could not be a prophet from amongst his (PBUH) progeny.``

Sorry to butt in this family feud. While I do not claim to understand everything about the Quran and Islam, could you please point out to any verse in the quran which validates this statement? And doesn`t it go against the claim that God sent his messengers to all nations? If all these prophets were from the same lineage, who brought the message to places like Europe, Africa, India, China and the rest of Asia?

sattar2 #: ``Yes indeed, my experiences as an Ahmadi-Muslim have colored my views.``

The Quran does, obviously, extend beyond the personal world. As does every religion in the world. As does every philosophy and system.........

However, one lives one`s life as one sees fit. In some cases, the circumstances are such that one cannot do so. So one migrates. You have done that. Now you are in a position where you can live your life, as you see fit...........

The reason Ahmedis are non-Muslims and Sunnis are Muslims, in Pakistan, is because the overwhelming majority is Sunni in Pakistan. Had the majority been Ahmedis, it is quite possible that Sunnis would have been declared non-Muslims. Shias will never be non-Muslims in Iran, but Sunnis could be someday. While Sunnis will never be non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, but Shias could be, someday........In fact, it was a Shia non-maulvi, named Bhutto, who declared Ahmedis non-Mulsims.......Now ironically, there are infant movements to declare Shias non-Muslims in Pakistan........

Relgious movements get powerful when masses convert to them. Ahmedis position will become powerful if large number of people switch to Ahmedi-ism. You are the first few generations, so you have to suffer. Much like followers of all religions suffered.......If large numbers do not follow Ahmedi-ism, then it will eventually shrink and then die off, like many other religious movements, historically............

Having said that, it is everyone`s personal rigth to consider someone a Muslim or non-Muslim. I may not consider you a Mulsim, personally. And you may not consider me one. Nothing wrong with that, as long as both of us are fair to each other. However, no State, group, scholar(s) etc. is authorized (by Islam itself) to declare someone a non-Mulsim. In fact, there is no defined mechanism in the Quran on a procedure to declare someone a non-Muslim. Should a jury do it? Should a Qazi do it? Should the State do it? Should it be may majority vote? Should a group of, ``ulema`` do it?

My $.02 for you, if you are interested: There are people, on this site, who have declared me non-Muslim (primarily because they cannot debate Islam with me, since they lack the knowledge, beyond what their, ``ulema`` have taught them).

I generally debate anything and everything with anyone. Except a few things: The moment someone declares me a non-Muslim, I don`t get into a debate with them to prove that I am a Muslim. I simply tell them f//ck off. And that is the end of it, from my side.

If someone can label me, based on thier own perverted standards, then they have basically declared me, ``guilty`` for no specific reason. Just because they think I am guilty. If I get into a debate with them to try to prove I am, ``innocent,`` then I have lost the fight before it has even begun. I have accepted that I am guilty, till proven innocent. I have allowed myself to be labelled...........From that point onwards, I will always be fighting the fight on the other person`s terms.....

echoboom #254, {``The rape of MukhtaraN Mai is still going on. Now by the NGOs and doGooders.``}

Beautifully stated. I agree with you. The MukhtaraN Mai tragedy has been hijacked by this crowd of goody goody two shoes for their own ulterior motives. Whether it`s a rape in Multan, a marathon in Lahore, or a Tsunami in the Indian Ocean, these insidious feminazis will use any ruse and any excuse to turn an event into a circus for their own designs. Kudos to you and others for recognizing this nonsense.
Salim :) My apologies about these nic changes necessitated by the unjust Chowk Staff. :)

Urstruly (#235),

You sounded like you had found something against Ahamdis. What was it …may I ask?

By referring to the “elephant” verses, you seem to be looking to validate your view that Quran does not have to make sense, it only has to be followed as ullema tell us. Can you come up with a better argument …?

I’ll be the second, after hamidm, to admit that some parts and details of Quran are not always easy to understand (although tauheed miaN remains in denial). Its basic message is easy to grasp … as it appeals to human intellect. But admittedly, some of its parts need due diligence. At times it goes on and on about stories that can be difficult to follow and hard to interpret. For starters, there is alif-lam-meem which continues to baffle me …

However, this in no way suggests that we ignore clear Quranic commandments, as well as our sense of civility, on issues of adultery, apostasy, and blasphemy … and start executing people … as suggested by your ullema. One has to be a moron to not see this blatant contradiction.

BTW, your cousin ntsyed is drowning. Are you going to idly stand by and watch? Feel free to correct him as you see fit. Earlier, when I posted Maudoodi`s views supporting return of Issa-ibne-Marriam, you expressed disagreement with Maudoodi over certain issues. Aren`t you going to share this wealth of knowledge with your cousin? C`mon now ... be a sport ...

Romair …

Agreed, in that what I stated is not exclusive to Muslims. Followers of each religion have sunk low at some point in time. I hope I am wrong, but I would be surprised if Ahmadi-Muslims fare much better with passage of time.

Often I shock fellow Ahmadis by asking them … ”who do you think will persecute the next prophet of Allah and his followers? As I get blank states, I explain … of course, it would be us Ahmadis who will make life miserable for Allah’s next prophet.

There are shades and degrees of support. Some people actively support a cause, some only approve of it, some are somewhat disinterested, while some disapprove of it although not strongly enough. I am of the opinion that a critical mass of population has to support a cause, in varying degrees, for the cause to stay alive.

Maudoodi did exploit Islam … we agree. My point is that Quran does reach beyond the individual and aims to influence social and political spheres of things. Qruan’s scope is not limited to an individual level only … but extends beyond that.

Yes indeed, my experiences as an Ahmadi-Muslim have colored my views. And that is to be expected … and that’s life. It is a rare occurrence for the entire upper echelon of ullema to band together to persecute a tiny community. It seems that confrontation with Ahmadis has exposed some of the deeper insecurities among the ummah … which obviously will result in backlash against Ahmadis and not everyone else. So yes, my experience is not a common one … and hence my views may not be shared by everyone else.

ntsyed (#248):

You are mixing things up. So far I have referred to Quran only to validate continuation of prophethood … without references to Mirza Sahib. These are two separate issues ... let`s keep them that way for now.

Perfection of religion

Divine guidance comes from Allah … agreed. According to Quran prophets are means through which Allah conveys this guidance to the people. Divine guidance has come in the past … and prophets too have appeared in the past. I fail to see your point.

Religion has been perfected in Quran … agreed. But this does not imply end of prophethood. Prophets have appeared to warn people and to remind them on basis of divine law. Reread this sentence. Once again, you are mixing things up.

Return of Issa …

If you think Issa will reappear after two thousand years of his birth … that’s your faith and I am ok with it (although Urstruly seems to have a bit of a problem accepting it). Note that Quran describes Issa as a prophet for the Israelites. When he appears for the worldwide Muslim population … would he still be a prophet for Israelites only … as the Quran says? Or would Quran start to lose meaning at that point? This is one of many problems with this view.

Ahmadis accept this hadith. We interpret it using Quranic guidance and common sense. Apparently that constitutes a problem for you.

Along the same lines …

Old Testament contains a prophecy about prophet Elijah (pbuh) reappearing among the Israelites at a later time. As explained later by Jesus Christ (pbuh), and recorded in New Testament, it was only a metaphor. Appearance of Prophet Yahya (John the baptist, a companion of Jesus Christ, pbuh) fulfilled the prophecy of reappearance of prophet Elijah (pbuh).

Absurd comparison

You are clutching on straws here to find something against me. I am quite comfortable with my take on things and see no need to explain myself to you. You are beating a dead horse here. It’s time to move on.

Seal of Prophets

It seems you do not have much to add to the meaning of “khattam-un-nabiyeen” here. You also did not comment on Surah-e-Fatiha and durood shariff. You are now raising speculative arguments … while ignoring more concrete points I`ve raised.

Or are we done with Quranic arguments on this issue?

Now you want to move on to Abu Bakr and Omar (ra). Good enough. What makes you think they believed in end of prophethood? I came across this saying of Bibi Ayesha (ra) recorded in Sayutti’s book … where, referring to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) she said … “do call him khattam-un-nabiyeen”, but do not say there will be no prophet after him”. From what I have understood, this was in response to someone suggesting that now that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has passed away, no more prophets will appear.

And finally …

Rest of your post contains facetious comments. Let’s focus on the issue at hand, unless you have nothing intelligent to add to it …

Re: # 256 by sattar2

” You are mixing things up. So far I have referred to Quran only to validate continuation of prophethood … without references to Mirza Sahib.”

Au contraire, you’re unnecessarily separating the two to justify Mirza Ahmed’s prophethood. In my recollection, you do not subscribe to sahih Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi – the three compilers of Ahadith recognized by most Muslims as top-notch and most reliable. Their work is referenced by most the most recognized exegetes of Quran. And nowhere in any one of those works there’s an authentic hadith, or narration of any companion of the Prophet (PBUH), negating the end of Prophethood at Mohammad (PBUH). On the other hand, as per the Prophet’s (PBUH) address in his only pilgrimage (hajjatulwid’a), and on other occasions, it has been recorded that he is the last prophet in the long line of prophets since Adam (PBUH).

Perfection of religion
The point you fail to see is that when there’s no need for any more revelations, there’s no need for any NEW prophets. The reason you fail to see it is because you’re trying to defend the indefensible claim of Mirza Ahmed and continuation of prophethood.

Return of Issa …
As Allah says in the Quran, from Adam (PBUH) to Mohammad (PBUH), all His messengers and prophets have brought the same message to different groups of people. Both Isrealites and Muslims are the progeny of Ibrahim (PBUH). The former was given the same message from Allah through Musa and Eisa (PBUH) as the latter received it from Mohammad (PBUH). It’s another thing that the Israelites changed the message to their ends. So, whether one is from the Israelite lineage or Muslim, Eisa (PBUT) will continue to uphold and propagate the same message – Islam, which according to our beliefs is Quran and according to their belief is Torah.

Rest assured, common sense is not a problem for me. It is the unnecessary stretching and extrapolation without the knowledge of background of the verses that causes problems for YOU. But that’s what one encounters when he/she rejects Mohammad’s (PBUH) interpretation of the Quran according to his authentic ahadith as recorded by Sahih Bukhari and his colleagues.

Along the same lines …
I’m unfamiliar with the old and new testaments. And frankly I do not care much about the text since it’s been changed by the Israelites over the centuries to suit their agenda. Reappearance of Elijah (PBUH) in the form of Yahya (PBUH) is the first time I’ve ever heard of it. According to Quran there’s no truth to this parable, and that they were two different Prophets in different times.

Absurd comparison
I have nothing against you, I don’t even know you beyond what you profess at chowk. However, your shying away from answering the question further reinforces the impression of your insecurity and folly concerning your prior claims about ‘feeling close’ to Allah, privacy, and respect. But I understand; those were hard questions and further highlight your contradictions. Though, I agree with the ‘dead horse’ part; especially after your refusal. You continue to put yourself in difficult position with outlandish definitions and references.

Seal of the Prophets (Khattam-an-nabiyeen - PBUH)
You must be aware that all the prophets were from the line of Prophets throughout history. Since none of Mohammad’s (PBUH) sons lived long enough to continue his lineage, there could not be a prophet from amongst his (PBUH) progeny. Thus, another validation of the word ‘khattam’ as the Seal of Prophethood. You’re still free to interpret it as you wish.

Sura-e-Fatiha
“Guide us to the Straight way” (1:6)
“The way of those on whom YOU have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger, nor of those who went astray” (1: 7)

Context of the whole Chapter
In the first 4 verses, we praise and glorify Him, then we pledge our obedience to Him, and then we pray to Him “Guide us to the Straight way”, then the final verse narrows the definition of the ‘Straight way’.

Why do we make the supplication in 1:6? Simply because (as you and I agree), the Guidance comes from Allah; with or without the prophets. The simple fact that there have been divinely Guided people before and after the prophet Mohammad (PBUH) is a simple proof of that.

As I’ve said before, your interpretation of the last verse of this chapter unnecessarily stretches it to justify the prophethood of Mirza Ahmed.

Again, refer to the Quran for the verse revealed to Mohammad (PBUH) when Abu Talib was dying.

Durood-shareef
Firstly the supplication does not refer to ‘followers’. ‘Aal’ in Arabic means family and progeny, not followers. Of course, the family and progeny follows as in comes after, the father. This is probably where you’re confusing the meaning to justify continuation of prophethood.

Secondly, the blessings are very clear in meaning as well; i.e. peace and prosperity. Again, your interpretation is stretching the meanings to justify the continuation of prophethood and Mirza Ahmed’s prophethood. These are extrapolations after stretching the meanings to suit your claim.

It’s true that Ibrahim (PBUH) has a very high rank among the prophets since his progeny became the leaders of mankind; first the Isrealites and then Muslims. However by your definition, Adam (PBUH) would be more appropriate as he (PBUH) was the father of ALL the prophets. Would he be not?

Of course, I’m not a scholar, but the study of history suggests it’s the leadership (of mankind) aspect of Ibrahim (PBUH), as pointed out above, that specifically refers to him in the durood and not Adam (PBUH) or even Isma’eel (PBUH) who was directly related to Mohammad (PBUH) as far as lineage is concerned.

As for blessing in terms of prophethood, Mohammad (PBUH) was the last one if you care to read his authentic ahadith. I’ve not read Sayutti’s book, thus am unfamiliar with ‘Aisha’s (r.a) comment. Would you care to show me how many narrated this quote from her and who they were? I’ll have to check the veracity of the quote before commenting on it.

Furthermore, it is recorded in Sahih ahadith that Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) often proudly said that he (PBUH) belonged to a lineage which includes the two men who were almost sacrificed for the sake of Allah: Isma’eel (PBUH) and Mohammad’s (PBUH) father Abd-Allah. Since it’ll be a digression to discuss how Abd-Allah almost got sacrificed, I think you should read the prophet (PBUH) biography to learn that.

And finally…
My other comments are not facetious. These are genuine concerns developed by your unnecessary stretching and extrapolation of Quranic verses, ahadith, quotes, and your arguments.

ntsyed

ntsyed sahib:
#250

``I think MM should be allowed to seek justice wherever and as far as she has to go. And that all of us should help her and others like her to our maximum potential.``

see...there are some things we can agree on :).

have a good break ntsyed sahib and yes we will continue the discussion upon your return. always another board and another argument ;).

miriam

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ntsyed#248:

``Subtle distortions of fact only harms the credibility of these groups and individuals, and may harm the victims` credibility as well. It may seriously undermine the struggle the victims have taken on so boldly.``

Good point! I hope that these people are ignorant and not trying to sensationalise the issue with exaggeration.

Re: # 252 Dost

The following explains why NGOs have been descended upon Pakistan like curse and bubonic plague and why it is a cause celebre for these foreign agents.

Who do these clowns in the foreign office think they are fooling?

The foreign office on Monday said that there was no pressure on Pakistan regarding the Mukhtaran Mai’s case and reiterated that Islamabad had always endeavoured to uphold the rights of women.

Re: #245

Wow! Musharraf getting a real PR lesson here.

I hope he learns it.

freethinker #245 Thanks for posting a great article. It is indeed heartening to see that thanks to modern media (in particular the internet and online newspapers - the much maligned ``western press`` that is indeed the enemy of the thugs in Pakistan), evil is finding it harder and harder to hide.

Musharaff may strut around the world stage in his fancy uniforms and expensive suits as the unelected ruler of pakistan, but by denying Mukhtaran Mai the right to speak out while letting the thugs go free, he is shown himself to possess the same primitive mentality as those who write on chowk about a ``mere mai`` being raped. I am glad the international press cornered him with embarrassing questions about Mukhtaran Mai that he then had to duck,.

#242 by Romair on June 20, 2005 9:24pm PT


There is no support for sectarian violence in Pakistan. None whatsoever. The sectarian violence is committed by a tiny group of terrorists. All of whom are on the run. However, they do not need a wider base to survive.


Iraq has the exact same situation yet you describe it as a quagmire for America....

The same applies to Kashmir...the terrorists are a small percentage of the population of Indian Kashmir and they`re on the run....

Hereunder is another column on Mukhtaran mai by Nicholas kristoff, The New York Times. When the overseas media fight any of our national causes, it sometimes is considered by many as western propaganda against our country and the Muslim world at large. But when a deteriorating situation is allowed to go beyond humanistic boundaries, such a support from the overseas media should be welcomed. Kristoff`s columns on Mukhtaran Mai are a great moral and material support to the cause of women emancipation in Pakistan.

Mohammad Gill

Op-Ed Columnist
The 11-Year-Old Wife
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By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 21, 2005
When Pakistan`s prime minister visits next month, President Bush will presumably use the occasion to repeat his praise for President Pervez Musharraf as a bold leader ``dedicated in the protection of his own people.`` Then they will sit down and discuss Mr. Bush`s plan to sell Pakistan F-16 fighter jets capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

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More Columns by Nicholas D. Kristof
Web Journal: KRISTOF Responds


Forum: Nicholas D. Kristof`s Columns
But here`s a suggestion: How about the White House dropping word that before the prime minister arrives, he first return the passport of Mukhtaran Bibi, the rape victim turned human-rights campaigner, so that she can visit the United States?

Despite Mr. Bush`s praise, General Musharraf shows more commitment to his F-16`s than to his people. Now he`s paying the price. Visiting New Zealand the last few days, he was battered by questions about why he persecuted a rape victim, forcing him to cancel interviews.

Pakistani newspapers savaged him for harming Pakistan`s image. And the blogosphere has taken up Ms. Mukhtaran`s case, with more than 100 blogs stirring netizens to send blizzards of e-mails to Pakistani consulates or to join protests planned for Wednesday and Thursday at Pakistani offices in New York and Washington.

Yet it`s crucial to remember that Ms. Mukhtaran is only a window into a much larger problem - the neglect by General Musharraf`s government of the plight of women and girls.

Early this year, for example, a doctor named Shazia Khalid reported that she had been gang-raped in a government-owned natural-gas plant. Instead of treating her medically, officials drugged her into unconsciousness for three days to keep her quiet and then shipped her to a psychiatric hospital.

When she persisted in trying to report the rape, she was held under house arrest in Karachi. The police suggested that since she had cash, she must have been working as a prostitute. Dr. Shazia`s husband has stood by her, but his grandfather was quoted as suggesting that Dr. Shazia had disgraced the family and should be killed.

On average, a woman is raped every two hours in Pakistan, and two women a day die in honor killings.

While Ms. Mukhtaran and Dr. Shazia have attracted international support, most victims in Pakistan are on their own. Earlier this year, for example, police reported that a village council had punished a man for having an affair by ordering his 2-year-old niece to be given in marriage to a 40-year-old man.

In another case this year, an 11-year-girl named Nazan was rescued from her husband`s family, which beat her, broke her arm and strung her from the ceiling because she didn`t work hard enough.

Then there are Pakistan`s hudood laws, which have been used to imprison thousands of women who report rapes. If rape victims cannot provide four male witnesses to the crime, they risk being whipped for adultery, since they acknowledge illicit sex and cannot prove rape.

When a group of middle-class Pakistani women demonstrated last month for equal rights in Lahore, police clubbed them and dragged them to police stations. They particularly targeted Asma Jahangir, a U.N. special rapporteur who is also the head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.

Ms. Jahangir says the directions to the police about her, coming from an intelligence official close to General Musharraf, were: ``Teach the [expletive] a lesson. Strip her in public.`` Sure enough, the police ripped her shirt off and tried to pull her trousers off. If that`s how General Musharraf`s government treats one of the country`s most distinguished lawyers, imagine what happens to a peasant challenging injustice.

I`ve heard from Pakistanis who, while horrified by honor killings and rapes, are embarrassed that it is the barbarism in Pakistan that gets headlines abroad. A word to those people: I understand your defensiveness, for we Americans feel the same about Guantánamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. But rooting out brutality is a better strategy than covering it up, and any nation should be proud to produce someone like Ms. Mukhtaran.

So while meeting the Pakistani prime minister, Mr. Bush could discuss not only F-16`s, but also repeal of the hudood laws. And Mr. Bush could invite Ms. Mukhtaran to the Oval Office as well, both to hail a genuine Pakistani hero and to spotlight the goals of ordinary Pakistanis - not fighter aircraft but simple justice.

Resources

For more information about some of these issues, including the planned demonstrations outside Pakistani offices this week, see www.4anaa.org/projects/mukhtaran-mai.htm. That`s on the Web site of the Asian-American Network Against Abuse of Women, run by a group of Pakistani doctors, and it`s also the group that is arranging her visit to the U.S. To help Mukhtaran, don`t send checks to me. Instead, you can find out about contributing at www.mercycorps.org .

E-mail: nicholas@nytimes.com

Re: # 245

I think MM should be allowed to seek justice wherever and as far as she has to go. And that all of us should help her and others like her to our maximum potential.

One cannot blame the NGOs for exploiting MM and the situation to their ends. It`s the govt`s fault. However, they lose much credibility in the eyes of a lot of people, including mine, when they twist the truth.

For example: ``Early this year, for example, a doctor named Shazia Khalid reported that she had been gang-raped in a government-owned natural-gas plant.``

Up until I read this post, she was reported to have been raped ``one`` (1) army officer; perhaps a captain; not gang-raped. Why the unnecessary dramatization and lies?

Similarly, temporal pasted a circular by AANA (or some group) calling to attend MM`s press conferences in the US. I think to that end it should be lauded and supported as it may help MM. But in that circular, the author (Ms Bhutt(i) or someone, I don`t remember) claimed that MM was gang-raped by ``twelve`` (12) men. Whereas, the news up until now has been that 4 actually raped her.

Increasing the number of perpetrators in the two examples above does not make the women any more victimized than they actually are. Nor does maintaining the actual numbers will make them less eligible for our sympathy. Being raped by even one person is more than enough for public awareness of the issue.

Subtle distortions of fact only harms the credibility of these groups and individuals, and may harm the victims` credibility as well. It may seriously undermine the struggle the victims have taken on so boldly.

But I suppose if these people could understand this simple logic, would they even attempt such stupidity to begin with? Morons!

Romair

Pakistan would be a highly unusual country if no Pakistani wanted any other Pakistani dead :)

Pakistanis may be misunderstanding the phenomenon of riots.

The absence of riots does not necessarily imply that no Pakistani wants to hurt any other Pakistani. It could also mean that the nature of Pakistani society and Pakistani state makes it easier to perpetrate one kind of regular violence that obviates the need for riots.

# 243 by kaal

I have a request. Please don`t confuse Romair with logic.

sattar1 #241: What you have stated is not exclusive to Islam. It happens everywhere. There are far more Mulsims (by a gigantic margin) who are being killed by terrorism (state and otherwise) from other religions. Than vice-versa. It is not even a contest, the numbers as so skewed. I can provide you exact numbers, if you want...........

Moreover, some of the logic you have presented, doesn`t quite fit, in my opinion.....

``A small percentage of jihadis on top need support from a wider base of followers. Some of these followers support violence in varying degrees … some approve of it``

There is no support for sectarian violence in Pakistan. None whatsoever. The sectarian violence is committed by a tiny group of terrorists. All of whom are on the run. However, they do not need a wider base to survive. Even after the most severe Imambargah bombings, sectarian violence never breaks out in Pakistan, amongst the public........

There is no support for the Al-Qaeda bombings that are taking place inside Pakistan. None of the Pakistanis want their own citizens dead, even if the target is the US Embassy. Yet they Al-Qaeda members continue to survive. Even though they don`t have a wide base of support (for their violence in Pakistan)..........

``Maudoodi was able to turn his ideas into a political movement … and that’s partly the point. Quran reaches beyond the individual, and aims to influence socio-economic and political spheres of communities. I gave a list of such issues earlier… ``

Any charismatic leader can turn ideas into political movements. Look at what the religious right in the USA has done. They have even recruited Hamidm. Something even Maudoodi could not do. And every religious idea extends into the socio-economic and political sphere of communities. Unless you assume people are against gay marriage, just for the heck of it.

If today I started my own religion, I could get some following. In fact, closer to home, look at the following that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was able to get. Despite all the persecution, his followers remain loyal to him. His ideas extended way deeper than a political movement. The loyalty of his followers, to him, is far higher than that of Moudoodi`s followers to Moudoodi........To the best of knowledge (though I am not an expert) Mirza Ghuam Ahmad`s ideas primarily concentrated around religion....I don`t think he had, primarily, an economical or social agenda.......

So none of the above is exclusive to Islam. It happens in Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, etc.......I think you are quite rightly, though perhaps overly, very sensitive to this, specificaly within Islam, because you belong to a community, which is at the receiving end of this........

Romair …

Islam does not encourage oppression, ummah is in a degenerated state, most Muslims do not support sectarian violence. Agreed.

Pyramid view of issue …

View these issues in a slightly different light, and think of a pyramid. For a smaller top to exist and to maintain its height, support must come from an increasingly wider base.

A small percentage of jihadis on top need support from a wider base of followers. Some of these followers support violence in varying degrees … some approve of it … some do not disapprove of it … at least not strongly enough … while others are largely disinterested in what goes on … as you move down the pyramid.

A small percentage at the top cannot maintain its position without support from a relatively larger portion of the population at large.

Quran and shariah …

Maudoodi was able to turn his ideas into a political movement … and that’s partly the point. Quran reaches beyond the individual, and aims to influence socio-economic and political spheres of communities. I gave a list of such issues earlier… (#138) to illustrate this.

For example, consider Qurnaic view of “lashes for adultery”: Are Muslims expected to behave like a mob and drag the adulterer out of his house and punish him. Or does Quran aim to influence the legal/worldly framework for handling such issues. I think it is the latter. While emphasizing individual responsibility, Quran does reach out to influence collective behavior of societies’ members … and hence the much dreaded term … the ummah …

ntsyed

:-)~~


is that a smily with a beard?

Commentaries from sunni commentators … as well as Ahamdi commentators.
And your point is … ???

Re: # 236

And what about the rape of Kashmiri women in thousands by Bharti foujies which is displayed with so shamelessness on Paki media, sometimes as a violation of human rights and sometimes as a `sacrifice` in the `Jehad` for independence of Kashmiries? And now Mai, the Raped, has started a new Jehad in Mirwala, a village situated in the very fortress of Islam of which even Christina Rocha seems to be jellous. Hahaha! Oh! Woman thy name is treachery!

Urstruly (#177):

I have my own interpretation of the said verses, based on commentaries I have read. So what’s your point? And why rant against Ahmadis … ??

You can believe whatever you want … including the two-thousand year old prophet residing above the clouds. Or better yet … perhaps it was this prophet residing in space … who zapped pieces of Halley’s comet by pointing his finger at them … causing meteor showers that killed the elephants. But then what about the birds? But who cars … the point is that one has no any right to force his beliefs on others. Is this so difficult to comprehend?

hamidm …

… you keep pushing Sahib’s buttons … no wonder he’s always so grumpy. And if he delivers any more lectures on Quran and civility … it would all be your fault … you know. First Quran, and then google … and you think the pope has a problem …

Re: # 234

``I have my own interpretation of the said verses, based on commentaries I have read. So what’s your point? And why rant against Ahmadis … ?? ``


``Commentaries?`` ehumm. Who commented? The quadiani god or your quadiani ulema? This gets better everytime I talk to you.

ntsyed (#182):

If message of Quran can be twisted to justify killing apostates, non-Muslims, blasphemers, and adulterers … and to treat female POWs as concubines … it is a easy to see how message of Quran may be twisted to validate raping non-Muslim women. This indeed would be shocking … but your ullema have shocked us all too often for one to be skeptical of their views.

Need for prophets

Quran tells us that Allah raised prophets to guide people back to truth as they went astray. Some prophets brought divine law … while others warned people and reminded them of their duty on basis of divine law.

One can make a strong case that there is rampant corruption and moral degeneration present in the world nowadays. Is Allah going to change his sunnah … and no more send prophets for guidance? He raised prophets in the past … so why not now?

Completion and perfection of religion has nothing to do with end of prophethood. Yours is a common misconception. Not all prophets brought Law. Some did … while others appeared to remind and to warn people on basis of Law.

Nowhere does Quran even remotely suggest that Allah will raise prophet no more.

Quran on continuation of prophethood

For starters, review the very first chapter of Quran … Surah-e-Fatiha … where it states something like … “guide us along the right path, the path of those on whom Thou bestowed Thy favors, and not of those who incurred Thy wrath and went astray”.

Quran contains numerous examples where people and nations accepted Allah’s prophets, and earned divine blessings as a consequence. Quran also cites numerous examples where people who persisted in their rebellion and rejected and persecuted Allah’s messengers incurred severe punishment from the Almighty.

The verse from Surah-e-Fathia cited above … is an indication that Allah will continue to raise prophets as needed. This is one of numerous interpretations of the said verse … and is a valid one in my view.

Here’s some more

In darood-shariff, we implore Allah to bless the followers of Prophet Muhammad just like He blessed the followers of Prophet Ibrahim. One of the prominent feature among the followers of Prophet Ibrahim was appearance of divine prophets. So in reciting darood-shariff … we implore Allah Almighty to continue to raise prophets amongst us, among other blessings bestowed on the followers of Prophet Ibrahim.

Along the same lines … the well-known ahadiht about appearance of Issa-ibne-Marriam … are references to a prophet among the Muslims ... whose appearance will bear resemblance to that of Issa.

There’s more … but I’ll pause for now.

Seal of Prophethood

Earlier I posted several examples of “khattam” (“seal of …”) that suggest the “most exalted” status of a person. Here’s a link to several references from other scholars who seem to be in agreement.

Click [Seal of Prophets]

And finally …on your absurd comparison

Chastity of mothers is a different matter … not to be confused with Quran. A person’s sexual behavior is his own business. Poking fun at Quran is fair game … more so for a believer.

And what the hell do you know me and my mother? And I am sure my parents do not fail to humor each other in personal matters. And if I feel close to Allah, what makes you think I cannot amuse myself at His expense???

Sahib … such humor is not to be confused with disbelief or disrespect. It is a manifestation of one’s belief and closeness he feels to his Creator.

Re: # 233 by sattar2

``If message of Quran can be twisted to justify...``

Just like you`re twisting and stretching the verses of the Quran beyond or totally out of context to justify your prophethood of Mirza Ahmed as a prophet of Islam.

Secondly, ``Nowhere does Quran even remotely suggest that Allah will raise prophet no more`` suggests you haven`t studied Quran as attentively as you should have; i.e. with proper context. But I`m sure you must`ve read in the Quran and Sunnah that Divine Guidance comes ONLY from Allah, and not from the prophets. The latter is appointed by the former to propagate the message to the mankind. Case in point: the verse revealed at the time of Prophet`s (PBUH) uncle Abu Talib`s death. I`m sure you`re familiar with it.

So, since we`ve established that Allah is the One Who Guides, and not His prophets, as well as His declaration to have completed the `Deen` in perfection, why would the people need a `new` prophet since Allah Guides and not His prophets.

Of course, as per Islamic belief, however humorous they may be for you, Eisa (PBUH) will return, to uphold and propagate the same message as he did 2000 year ago - same Islam as Mohammad (PBUH) propagated as the last prophet. He (PBUH) will NOT return as a `new` prophet since he (PBUH) was taken up from earth alive. The `appearance` bit regarding him (PBUH) as per Quran and Sunnah refers to his (PBUH) crucifixion; not his (PBUH) return. I wonder if it was a deliberate attempt to twist or an innocent mistake on your part?

BTW, do Ahmedis deny this prophecy because it`ll further damage/discredit Mirza Ahmed and his claim? And what`s this I hear about an Ahmedi paradise somewhere (I forget the place) in Pakistan? If so, then what does it have? Perhaps you could arrange a tour for Urstruly and I. Who knows, that may win us over ;-)~~

The `absurd comparison`
Again, the context: `being secure` as per one`s belief, and `respect`. Your mother`s chastity is not in question.

Be that as it may, your statements ``[p]oking fun at Quran is fair game … more so for a believer...And if I feel close to Allah, what makes you think I cannot amuse myself at His expense???`` suggest you`re ``not`` close enough to your mother to `amuse` yourself at her expense. That it`ll not be a fair game to do so, and a violation of her privacy. Is it because Allah is unseen thus must not be able to punish you for your humor at His expense?

Why were you offended? Don`t you think God deserves `respect` and `privacy`? Or are you trying to be `selectively` rational about these concepts?

How can you claim to `feel close` to Almighty, when by your own admission (on another board) you consume alcohol in spite of the fact that Allah prohibited alcohol or any mind altering substance, more so on the believers?

You don`t seem secure enough when anyone criticizes Mirza Ahmed, are you? If you are, then why snap at Urstruly every single time?

Since you claim to know Authentic Ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH), can you tell me of one hadith which even indicates that the Prophet (PBUH) amused himself at Allah`s expense?

According to my studies, Abu Bakr (r.a) was close to Allah; whom Allah guaranteed to be the first human being after the prophets to enter the paradise. He won`t even need his deeds handed to him in order to do that. Yet another hadith tells us that Omar (r.a) was close to Allah second to Abu Bakr (r.a), and will be the first person to receive his deeds and second after Abu Bakr (r.a) to enter paradise.

Now, can you tell me if either of those two gentlemen interpreted `khattam-an`nabiyeen` as anything other than the `end of prophethood`? Or are you going to deny those ahadith and the credibility of the two men (r.a)? I wouldn`t be surprised if you did; you`re too predictable that way ;-)~~

After learning about Ahmedis from you, I`m surprised at the leniency they`ve received from the mainstream Muslims. Ahmedis should be thankful to the common Muslims, corrupt mullahs, warlords and feudal landlords, westernized politicians and their confused secular lobby, and the army instead of bad-mouthing those groups and individuals as and when it suits you.

I look forward to your response in the next day or two. No guarantees beyond that period since I`ll be absent from chowk for at least a fortnight afterwards.

---

jang (#238), you got it! :-)~~

Good bye everyone,
ntsyed :-)~~

AMERICAN WOMEN CAN LEARN A LOT FROM MUKHTAR MAI