Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

AlephNull,

the explanation you seek is in fact very simple as opposed to comprehensive. One must start with basics which I advise you to do. Simply ponder:

1. the meaning of: There is no god but Allah, and Mohammad is His messenger.
2. what is the purpose of your existence?
3. what’s next after this life?
4. then read Quran, the life of the Prophet (PBUH)

It would be helpful for you if you don’t compare it to any other religion or ideology and maintain impartiality in the beginning to prevent muddling of your thoughts.

I hope you possess the objectivity and fortitude to do the above, in which case I wish you Good luck. Otherwise …well, good luck anyways since no one can instill the two in your mind.


dost-mitter,

I’m sorry you’ve been misled by some ill-informed Muslims as per ``Time and again, we have been told that quran is a simple document and that anyone can read and understand its message without the help of a Maulana.``

While the basic tenets of Islam are crystal clear in the Quran. However, there are a lot of things that require knowledge of the background as to when the specific verse(s) were revealed to the Prophet (pbuh); or the interpretation provided by the Prophet (PBUH) in order to understand them. In my personal opinion it was necessary because otherwise there would not be a need for a prophet - men, but most guided ones - to lead the people.

Even in case of prayers – Salah, not just invocation and supplication – and pilgrimage (Hajj), the procedure is not explained in the Quran. One has to follow the Prophet (PBUH) to perform these acts properly.

Some ill-informed Muslims reject the Traditions (actions/ sayings) of the Prophet (PBUH) on the basis that they were written 200 years after his death. While the time period is correct, these Traditions were not grabbed out of thin air. Since the day Prophet (PBUH) received the first revelation, everything he said and did was recorded by his companions (may Allah be pleased with them). Still, at the time of the compilation, each of the Traditions were verified as much as possible along with the references, names, and lineages of the narrators. Wherever these verification are weak, the traditions are rendered ‘weak/unauthentic’. Most of the weak traditions are the ones that conflict with the Quranic injuctions and Shar`ia.

Speaking of Shar`ia, with all due respect I disagree with Romair on the definition of the word. Perhaps he`s confusing Shar`ia with Fiqh (jurisprudence). Furthermore, Shar`ia is not just the legal code for the judiciary. It is the comprehensive way of life as prescribed by Allah and lived by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) - a concept that AlephNull finds difficult to understand for now.

Anyway, some of the best references you can find to understand the Quran in its entirety are translation by Yusuf Ali, commentary by Ibn Katheer, as well as the traditions of the Prophet (PBUH) by Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, and Sahih Tirmidhi.

Good luck.

ntsyed :-)~~

ntsyed,

``Now tell me, if you were the victim, would you have your survivors fund the extended incarceration of your murderer and on gitmo expansion? ``

.......... the answer is a categorical and unqualified ``yes`` !.......... only mohammad crazies and jesus freaks don`t see the dichotomy between supporting capital punishment while clamoring for the rights of the unborn .......

Re: # 161

.......... only mohammad crazies and jesus freaks don`t see the dichotomy between supporting capital punishment while clamoring for the rights of the unborn .......

hamidm,

your bigotry still doesn`t answer whether a murderer should be equated with an unborn and absolutely innocent human being in terms of rights to live. Nor does it address the rights of the murdered and his/her survivors. Nor does it justify the expense in the face of endemic unemployment and homelessness.

But then again, obfuscation is your name....I forget if it`s the first, middle, or last.

Oh, now I see. Supporting capital punishment and its proper implementation would put a lot of your GIs on death row by the ICC.

In that case, carry on your rant.

;-)~~

#160 by ntsyed

“It is the comprehensive way of life as prescribed by Allah and lived by the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) - a concept that AlephNull finds difficult to understand for now..”

Though I have serious doubts about Alephnull’s mental state (he is lunatic), but I also have a hard time swallowing the concept of “comprehensive way of life”. This I really find way out of line. I think it is a manufactured theory and as there is no sane person who could possibly declare any religion as a complete or a comprehensive way of life.

For something to be comprehensive, dynamism must cease first. As comprehensive can only be applied to static ideas or things. In this changing world, lifestyle, and needs a religion or a theory cannot be comprehensive or complete and it will have to draw on several sources to just keep up with dynamism that life presents.

Please correct this line “in post # 183 “I think it is a manufactured theory and as there is no sane person..”

Correct line. “I think it is a manufactured theory and concocted by some 20th century prophet as there is no sane person who could possibly declare any religion as a complete or a comprehensive way of life.”

Romair,

Taliban are a small percentage of Muslim community. But so are suicide bombers and wide-eyed jihadis. This small percentage of Muslims continues to persecute Ahamdis, incite sectarian violence … while the overwhelming majority stands by. What does this tell you?

I earlier posted Maudoodi’s views on political Islam (and will avoid reposting) … which were outright scary. He continues to be regarded a top notch scholar of Islam by the ummah. Go figure.

You have been around long enough to know what Urstruly, ntsyed, and Naqsh stand for. Do you really want me to quote them to tell you what they think??? Romairrrrrr … !!!!

And while Quran does not force shariah on anyone, it does make the case for it. I gave a laundry list of issues in my earlier post … which clearly suggest so. I’ll avoid repeating it here.

Re: # 135

Romair:

Bigotry comes out of ignorance, very few people who have been here would say that Dost-Mitter is a bigot. He quoted a verse from Quran, which reads to exclude someone reachable by right hand from the edict. This verse is subject to many interpretations for the both uninitiated and initiated. However, it is a defensive leap from there to state religious sanctioning of rape of non-muslims. I would like to learn about your and Tahmed`s interpretation of this verse. Critique (= bigot) or exlcusion of someone from commenting is like banning freedom of speech. It is akin to the example that I mentioned where an ardent Hindutvawadi was almost ready to pounce on me, because I dared to challenge him on good Hindu and bad Hindu.

Religion has immense power over human mind. It, in those moments when we do not have answers from what I call ``rational`` world, we seek answer through a belief system. This is why, according to me, religion gets the higher slot than ideologies.

To me, religious doctrines are also human thoughts, just as ideologies are, although with a different purpose altogether. I would not call you or Tahmed bigots, just because you or him would say negative things about Hinduism. One thing that I have learned from spending my time at Chowk, is that Islam is also not a monolith. There are shades in it also. It is this important message that is lost, becuase to an outsider, Quran is vocally (at times violently) held at such a dizzying height. People even on this board have tried to put political Islam down, as we speak there is a presidential election going on in Iran. What would you call that democratic process, a political Islam and condemn it or accept it as a reform movement and a very Iranian process. My vote would be for the later. Just as I accept Indian democracy as very Indian, not political hinduism.

I have faith in rational thinking mind that would. I would certainly add quite a few. I have read Radhakrishnan`s write-up on Manu-smriti. He has quoted verses where castes are defined as law of society, and then he has also quoted verses from Manu-smriti where it says these laws are changeable and challengeable. What does it mean, to me the latter part is more important, and reinforces my belief that hinduism is kind of common law of religion. Changeable, Challengeable and Interprettable differently by different generations and societies. Why I like this because I hate castes as the most demeaning form, I know many from the grandparents generations in my own family who practised the former part. The same way some believe in certain part of other religions sacred verses while others believe in others. This to me is a human quality and nothing to do with religion. It is humans who play smoke and mirror. Quran and Manu-smriti are undeniable written documents.

Anil

anil
//... it is a defensive leap from there to state religious sanctioning of rape of non-muslims....//

Not really. The concept of kufr has been used very effectively and widely over the ages. So that basically establishes what that verse is interpreted as. Romair and closet mullah32 will of course give you some watered-down version - because that serves their agenda.

ntsyed,

I believe in Quran ... and I am secure enough about my faith to poke fun at it. A little humor goes a long way. Sorry, I didn`t mean to further confuse you.

On killing non-Muslims for faith …

You earlier stated that “shirk is punishable by death”.

Click [Punishment for shirk]

When I protested, you tried to qualify it by referring to extreme conditions and designs against Islam and due consideration by the ruler of the land … etc. etc. I pointed out that the punishment for anti-state activities applies to everyone … Muslims included, but you failed to respond.

“Seal of prophets

And we finally reach the ground-zero of prophethood issue …

“Seal of Prophet” means the prophet of the highest status, the most exalted prophet. It does not mean last prophet. This is a common misconception … that even Urstruly and tahmed shared … before I corrected them. I have seen Arabic references where “khattam” is used to indicate a person’s highest status … in khattam-ul-mafasareen, khattam-ul-muhaqaqeen, khattam-ul-auliya, and khattam-ul-muhadaseen.

Quran suggests that even as it completes and perfects divine law, prophets will continue to appear to warn people and to guide them as needed. End of prophethood is a misconception that has gained more momentum in recent history. Ahadith are often misunderstood and misquoted in this context. Ahadith that support continaution of prophethood are ignored by the ullema. Some well-known scholars from Islamic history expressed their belief in continuation of prophethood through their writings.

And to answer your question … yes, I am for real …


Urstruly (#153):

… and what are you trying to prove? That Islam should be forced on others? Or that little birds tossed stones that killed elephants? Or better yet … a two thousand year old prophet resides above the clouds … and will one day (very soon?) descend down to the earth riding on shoulders of two angels? This is what your shariah has been reduced down to … so think before trying to make an absurd point.

… and btw, what is your immigration status? ANd did you pay your taxes last year??

#143 by Romair on June 17, 2005 9:01am PT


Taliban are a microscopically tiny % of the Muslim community.


So what`s your point? Numbers can be used to prove a point?

The terrorist OBL has a 65% unfavorable rating in Pakistan...
either you are bad muslims who condone someone who goes against Islam or.....

``Every problem looks like the head of a nail to a man whose only tool is a hammer.`` (Bill Gates).

Chowk version of above insight: ``Every problem looks like the head of a mullah to hamidm.``

seriously...he`s showing the self-deluded paki thinking in public...(just like capt clueless who thinks OBL gets a bum rap when the real problem is the tamil suicide bombers)....just like he told pakis they were ahead of India in satellite technology when pakiland took charge of a pre-owned satellite...

earth to pakis: the world isn`t buying it...read Kristof`s column about it on sunday...

I stopped Mai from going abroad: president

AUCKLAND: President General Pervez Musharraf said on Friday that he ordered a travel ban on Mukhtar Mai to protect Pakistan’s image abroad.(how`s that working out for you....bwahaha...)

Gen Musharraf said Mukhtar Mai, the victim of a punchayat-ordered gang rape, was being taken to the United States by foreign non-government organisations “to bad-mouth Pakistan” over the “terrible state” of the nation’s women. He said NGOs are “Westernised fringe elements” which “are as bad as the Islamic extremists”.

He acknowledged that he placed the 36-year-old on the list of people banned from leaving Pakistan while responding to media questions during a three-day visit to New Zealand.

“She was told not to go” to the United States to appear on media there to tell her story, Gen Musharraf told the Auckland Foreign Correspondents’ Club. The government lifted the travel ban on Wednesday after Mai appealed to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz. Musharraf said atrocities are perpetrated daily against women in developing nations round the world - “in Kashmir and many other places”.

“I don’t want to project the bad image of Pakistan,” he told the journalists’ club.

“I am a realist. Public relations is the most important thing in the world,” he said, adding that media misperceptions would discourage tourists from travelling to Pakistan.(well thank allah for the ban on mukhtaran..now tourists will be lining up outside the paki embassy to get visas for pakiland..brilliant...)

“Pakistan is the victim of poor perceptions. The reality is very different,” he said. He defended his regime’s treatment of women, saying it was working for their emancipation. Rape was not “a rampant malaise Pakistan suffers from every day,” he said. He said he was on the side of women and was trying to bring rapists to “justice in the strongest form”. His government was encouraging the emancipation of women through education and by reducing high death rates for women and children. Women’s right were also discussed during earlier talks with New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark. “This is a country with many women in powerful positions so we do take an interest. So I certainly have been satisfied today that President Musharraf shares that concern and would like to see his country move,” she said. As well as Clark, New Zealand’s top judge, parliamentary speaker and top business leader are all women. agencies

dumbass pakis...can`t even get their stories straight....

nicholaskristof - 5:51 PM ET June 17, 2005 (#830 of 830)

Today a Pakistani government official I know called me and we had a long talk about Mukhtaran – and about Pakistan’s refusal to give me a visa to visit her. This official emphasized that while Pakistan had made mistakes in handling the case, they were by lower officials and that President Musharraf himself was on Mukhtaran’s side.

Half an hour later, I found this wire story from Auckland, New Zealand:

Pakistan President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said Friday that he ordered a travel ban on the victim of a village council-ordered gang rape to protect Pakistan`s image abroad.

Anil #166: I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one.

This has nothing to with the individual. It is the comments. In fact, if I ever state something about Hindus or Hinduism, which I cannot back up, I hope you will the first to challenge me on it. And if I keep doing it, I hope you will be the first to point out my bigotry.........You would be doing me a favor. Most people who make prejudiced comments never realize they are doing so..........

Prejudicism and bigotry is a disease in our society. Specifically in South Asian societies. It brainwashes people. And then gets them to do all kinds of strange things. Once a community is profiled and painted in a certain way, it immediately ends up on the defensive. The next step is the community being targeted and attacked........

A person can be the nicest guy in the world and still hold bigoted views about certain other communities. The US Southerners are some of the nicest gentlemen and ladies. Yet they have had a tradition of bigotry against African-Americans............

I think many people are too lenient when it comes to bigotry based on religious profiling. If the same comments are based on race, or gender etc. they immediately stand up for the rights of the group, being profiled. But not on religion. I would speak out just as much, had these comments been about Punjabi-speakers, or Pakistanis, or women, or Canadians, or South Asians, or anything else............

Re: # 40

What a Mai, the Raped! She seems to have surpassed Phoolan Devi of Bharat like our atom bomb explosion. So rejoice Pakies. We have struck another score on Bharat.
Mai is a heroine of course but of the drug type which has raped all Paky thinking alongwith their `Bhang Bhosrha`. Every body has gone berzerk. Only High court is keeping its sense of justice.

As for Islam, as they say , it is Deene Fitrat. Sex is no crime in nature and so in Islam. Here I would like to refer you to my post #143 & 144 on another article on the subject ``Why Mukhtaran Mai matters``.

Sattar2 #165: ``This small percentage of Muslims continues to persecute Ahamdis, incite sectarian violence … while the overwhelming majority stands by. What does this tell you?``

It tells me that the Muslim community is at the trough of its historical cycle. It is currently in a degenerated state. As are many other communities in the world. However, it does not tell me that Islam encourages murders of non-Muslims or rapes of non-Muslims........One really has to carry out a long strech of imagination and perverse interpretation of Islamic verses to state the later........This is the only thing I am highlighting.........The desire of others to paint communities in a certain manner, without any factual basis...........

If someone quoted that Islam allows men to hit their wives and debated that, it would be legitimate, because there are wordings pointing to that........They could then have argued till the cows came home..........

Having said that, I don`t the overwhelming majority of Muslim community stands by for sectarian violence. It overwhelmingly opposes it, and has shown an awful amount of patience in countries where it happens. It does, however, stand by in case of Ahmedis. Not only does it stand by, Ahmedis are the only minority that is persecuted by the majority, including the silent majority........

``He continues to be regarded a top notch scholar of Islam by the ummah. Go figure.....You have been around long enough to know what Urstruly, ntsyed, and Naqsh stand for. Do you really want me to quote them to tell you what they think?``

I don`t think Maudoodi is regarded as a top-notch scholar by too many people. I doubt too many Pakistanis could name a single book he wrote. Perhaps 10-15% could. I certainly cannot. He was able to turn his ideas into a political movement and became well-known for that.........

Religions, ethnicities, races etc. are larger than any time, persons etc. You need to look at them independently of the individuals, whose names you have taken. Bush, with the full support of the Christian Right, and the majority population of the USA, has carrid out the killing of over 100,000 Muslims. Hitler ordered the killing of 6 million Jews, with the full support of the Germans. Both successfully painted these killings, to their followers, as something, ``that had to be done.`` To the best of my knowledge Urstruly and Maudoodi have not done that.........But I still would not narrow in on Hitler and Bush, when looking at Christianity........