Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

kaalchakra: you are a fine poster yourself, my friend. Perhaps we should organize a ``Chowk Retreat`` to some serene hill resort or island resort where we can sort these matters out once and for all.
:-)

kaura #77 I am not sure i fully understood what you wrote - but it sounds good. :-)

must run for lunch now. cheers to all.

#78 by Romair
“Classy drinkers never brag or even mention their drinking. They neither kiss and tell, nor drink and tell.........”

That right there shows that you don’t know much about this subject. Have you heard about the wine collectors? Have you ever looked at wine cellars?
Please visit some wine aficionado, their boast of their wine collection, may surprise you.
Drinking is an acquired taste and those who don’t have it, don’t have it.

Drinking is a beautiful thing and only true and classy drinkers talk about it. People who puke after couple of sips of cheap Indian whiskey don’t talk about it.

Kaal,
You don`t need guidelines. Just use common sense.

Re: # 62 HP
//The limitation that DM and his ilk have is that ..there is nothing you can do about people who have been brought up to despise other faiths, religions and cultures...//

Coming from a paki - that`s really rich :))) ..... DM is brought up to despise other faiths and pakis are brought up to love and cherish the human kind. What`s this - the bizzaro world??

DM didn`t invent the concept of ``kufr``? It`s one of the central messages from islam. There are Muslims and there are kufrs. The message is very simple.

kaurasach #: ``Some way of deciding what should be included as part of religion and what should not be. What is our duty to criticize and what we are safe to ignore.``

There is an easy way. Everyone should critique every religion, to their heart`s desire, provided:

- They have taken the time to study the relgion
- They can back up their critiques with facts

Anyone who has not done so, yet continues to critique anything, is a bigot, and should be challenged and exposed. Much like anyone who says Tom Cruise is gay, but cannot back it up, is challenged, exposed and actually sued............Or like anyone who says one bottle of shampoo cleans one`s hair better than another and cannot back it up, is challenged, exposed and actually sued............

#83 by mohar11

I don`t know what is with Indians about this word Kufr or Kafir. These are just two arabic words why Indians take them personally? If you don`t believe in Islam some Muslims in Arabic would call you kafir. Even my old mother calls me kafir, I have no problem with that.

It is like if you don`t believe in Christianity, you are pagan. Infact, for Christians every faith other than christianity is paganism.
Why no objection to that? May be most Christians are white and arabs are not?

This has turned in to a circle jerk,
Who can shoot the farthest.

romair,

......... you are a funny guy !

``Classy drinkers never brag or even mention their drinking. They neither kiss and tell, nor drink and tell ``

..........you remind me of the guys who hang around the greyhound station downtown with their bottles ``hidden`` in brown bags ! ........... they never mention their drinking and try to be as discreet as possible ..........

............. the reason i mention drinking is because the attitude towards alcohol, women, interest and pigs is symbolic of the retrogressive and philistine nature of most ``real`` muslims ................

...... but really, this has little to do with the plight of poor mukhtar mai who is the vicitm a primitive and lawless society that is still struggling to come out of the middle ages ...........islam is only relevant because some people coninue to use it to justify vulgar barbarism ...........

re: shoreSahib # 86

Sahibji, I still haven`t received Mr. Yoginder Sikand`s email address you promised, so I could check with him if he has been making factually correct assertions :(

Re: # 65

What you say is not kosher.On my post #37, i put `down` the happenings in my own country as i have a right to do.The religion or names of individuals involved is irrelevant.In this `Muktaran` case, i offer my opinion that the pak govt. should let her go.If she`s a flake then it will quickly unravel under media scrutiny in the west.If not, let her have justice.I feel pak govt. botched it up.All govt.s `botch` things up.What`s new??.Please look in the mirror before you accuse.

Re: # 85
//...I don`t know what is with Indians about this word Kufr or Kafir. ...//

Not the word - the concept. The concept of kafir [or pagan] is a central concept of abrahamic faiths and this concept has inspired muslims and christians to wreak havoc around the world, over the centuries. Such concepts are nothing but extreme form of fascism.

Of course, christians have learnt and evolved ... and have dropped the concept long ago. You don`t hear christians using the word pagan no more. But, Muslims are still stuck in the same old medieval mindset - kafir as a concept is as pwoerful as it was 1400 years ago.

I fully support Mukhtaran Mai.

We need to get angry about the mistreatment of women in the name of tradition. About gross violations of women`s human rights. About institutions that treat a women who has been raped and has sought justice as a problem to be managed, rather than trying to restore her dignity, admiring her courage and treating her abusers as criminals.

What can or should we do? How do we support Mukhtaran Mai? How do we effectively challenge these abhorrant practices?

#91 by mohar11

“Not the word - the concept. The concept of kafir [or pagan] is a central concept of abrahamic faiths and this concept has inspired muslims and christians to wreak havoc around the world, over the centuries. Such concepts are nothing but extreme form of fascism.”

You are a nice guy but this is spacious!

Friend, you need to really tell us ignorant folks what that paganism concept is and how it is central to Abraham faiths. The basic element of every faith born in the dark ages, be it Islam, Christianity or Hinduism is that “MY” faith is right and others are not right or fake. After the enlightenment, new religions became isms. Capitalism, Socialism, communism, Nationalism and or even fascism. The basic element remains the same. The followers of these new isms believe that their ism is always right and others are either ignorant or provocateurs.

Don’t you think it is the humankind itself that is wreaking havoc around the world for centuries and how are you so sure that your faith did not wreak any havoc ANY where in the world.
I can’t stop you from believing in what you believe in but reducing the world history to this low level of intellectualism is obviously a work of some non-abrahamic faith scholar and nothing more than that.

I admire M. Mai, courage and determination. She must a strong woman. She is fighting against the system and the odds are against her. I wish her and pray for her to continue.

Re: # 88
Hazoor-e-Walaa,
Here is the email address for Yoginder Sikand.

ysikand@islaminterfaith.org

I hope this helps