Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

I was getting annoyed by umpteenth article about Mukhtiar Mai and her ordeal. Now, I think the more articles and media exposure she gets, the better it is.

One should realize there will never be any justice for her in the system. However, the constant challenge to the PakiSatani authority will take the poison out of these snakes` fangs. The fangs will remain. With time, hopefully, they will be defanged too.

There is an article on Mukhtaran Mai at The New York Times (June 14, 2005) also which I`m cutting and pasting in the following for the chowk readers. Nicholas Kristoff has supported Mukhtaran`s cause consistently.

Mohammad Gill


Op-Ed Columnist
Raped, Kidnapped and Silenced
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By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 14, 2005
No wonder the Pakistan government can`t catch Osama bin Laden. It is too busy harassing, detaining - and now kidnapping - a gang-rape victim for daring to protest and for planning a visit to the United States.

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Nicholas D. Kristof/The New York Times
Mukhtaran Bibi in September 2004.



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Last fall I wrote about Mukhtaran Bibi, a woman who was sentenced by a tribal council in Pakistan to be gang-raped because of an infraction supposedly committed by her brother. Four men raped Ms. Mukhtaran, then village leaders forced her to walk home nearly naked in front of a jeering crowd of 300.

Ms. Mukhtaran was supposed to have committed suicide. Instead, with the backing of a local Islamic leader, she fought back and testified against her persecutors. Six were convicted.

Then Ms. Mukhtaran, who believed that the best way to overcome such abuses was through better education, used her compensation money to start two schools in her village, one for boys and the other for girls. She went out of her way to enroll the children of her attackers in the schools, showing that she bore no grudges.

Readers of my column sent in more than $133,000 for her. Mercy Corps, a U.S. aid organization, has helped her administer the money, and she has expanded the schools, started a shelter for abused women and bought a van that is used as an ambulance for the area. She has also emerged as a ferocious spokeswoman against honor killings, rapes and acid attacks on women. (If you want to help her, please don`t send checks to me but to Mercy Corps, with ``Mukhtaran Bibi`` in the memo line: 3015 S.W. First, Portland, Ore. 97201.)

A group of Pakistani-Americans invited Ms. Mukhtaran to visit the U.S. starting this Saturday (see www.4anaa.org). Then a few days ago, the Pakistani government went berserk.

On Thursday, the authorities put Ms. Mukhtaran under house arrest - to stop her from speaking out. In phone conversations in the last few days, she said that when she tried to step outside, police pointed their guns at her. To silence her, the police cut off her land line.

After she had been detained, a court ordered her attackers released, putting her life in jeopardy. That happened on a Friday afternoon, when the courts do not normally operate, and apparently was a warning to Ms. Mukhtaran to shut up. Instead, Ms. Mukhtaran continued her protests by cellphone. But at dawn yesterday the police bustled her off, and there`s been no word from her since. Her cellphone doesn`t answer.

Asma Jahangir, a Pakistani lawyer who is head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, said she had learned that Ms. Mukhtaran was taken to Islamabad, furiously berated and told that President Pervez Musharraf was very angry with her. She was led sobbing to detention at a secret location. She is barred from contacting anyone, including her lawyer.

``She`s in their custody, in illegal custody,`` Ms. Jahangir said. ``They have gone completely crazy.``

Even if Ms. Mukhtaran were released, airports have been alerted to bar her from leaving the country. According to Dawn, a Karachi newspaper, the government took this step, ``fearing that she might malign Pakistan`s image.``

Excuse me, but Ms. Mukhtaran, a symbol of courage and altruism, is the best hope for Pakistan`s image. The threat to Pakistan`s image comes from President Musharraf for all this thuggish behavior.

I`ve been sympathetic to Mr. Musharraf till now, despite his nuclear negligence, partly because he`s cooperated in the war on terrorism and partly because he has done a good job nurturing Pakistan`s economic growth, which in the long run is probably the best way to fight fundamentalism. So even when Mr. Musharraf denied me visas all this year, to block me from visiting Ms. Mukhtaran again and writing a follow-up column, I bit my tongue.

But now President Musharraf has gone nuts.

``This is all because they think they have the support of the U.S. and can get away with murder,`` Ms. Jahangir said. Indeed, on Friday, just as all this was happening, President Bush received Pakistan`s foreign minister in the White House and praised President Musharraf`s ``bold leadership.``

So, Mr. Bush, how about asking Mr. Musharraf to focus on finding Osama, instead of kidnapping rape victims who speak out? And invite Ms. Mukhtaran to the Oval Office - to show that Americans stand not only with generals who seize power, but also with ordinary people of extraordinary courage.

How to Help:

For more information about Mukhtaran Bibi, see www.4anaa.org/projects/mukhtaran-mai.htm. That`s on the Web site of the Asian-American Network Against Abuse of Women, run by a group of Pakistani doctors, and it`s also the group that is arranging her visit to the U.S. In addition, see www.mercycorps.org. Mercy Corps is working with Ms. Mukhtaran in administering the funds that Times readers sent for her.

E-mail: nicholas@nytimes.com

This is beyond getting justice for her. Once a woman is gang raped, there is never ever going to be any justice for her. She has now become a symbol in an on going fight for women’s rights/human rights and upholding the law in Pakistan.

The Human rights activists are using her to highlight the ongoing human rights violations in Pakistan. The biggest perpetrator of the human rights violation is the army rule in itself.

To reform the system, it is essential to attack it as much as possible. Mukhtaran provides a great opportunity for the human rights activists to take their case international and embarrass the government. The Pak government knows it, and it would make every effort to stop her from leaving the country. She has the potential to become a huge weapon in the fight for modernism, and liberalism in Pakistani society. Her presence in the US and the media attention would be a devastating blow for Islamist, religious fundamentalists, and the army and they would hate to see her face on American TV.

Asma Jahangir is an old hand in such endeavors. She played the mixed marathon game efficiently and got the maximum media attention out of it. She is now going to get the army and the fundos by the balls. The irony is that fundos brought Mai out first. Genie is out now and they will probably regret doing that for a long time.

The court system in Pakistan is doing what Pakistani law dictates. We got to realize that the court system in the US also throws out cases on minor technicalities and it would not care about the political implementation of court’s decision. Pakistan judicial system has to work within its limitations and Judges know that their reputation is on line and they wouldn’t let rapist go Scot free, if there is any provision in the law to hold them. Judges appear to have not many choices. This late in the game, courts are irrelevant anyway.

The army and the mullas are two sides of the same coin. The army likes the world to think that they are anti mulla. Not so. They support each other`s kanjarpana and haramzadgi. The snakes are filled with poison because they haven`t had a chance to bite anyone for a couple of years. So, they are more poisonous and thus dangerous.

US doesn`t care as long as they or their interests are not threatened. Only local confrontation with the evil will bring results.

Many questions come in the mind of ordinary people after a sad issue which turn into a bitter one when Muktharan name was put under ``Exit Control List``. I remember few months back Ex-banker had a photo session with Muktharan in PM house what he asked her? may be he want a promise from her that she will not leave this country. Any ways she a got a invitation from U.S where humans are regarded as human and then anti-terror General came in when he was packing his back for tour of Australia. May be he is still sticking with the old memory of Dr.Shazia when she was planted to U.K few month earlier by the Pakistani goverment and then lots of drums been beated in Pakistan. I have a question with General how can he forget what happend with 2 U.S citizen (Afzal Brothers) and what happend with Mai. If his son been detained in Houston what he will do?? if any Genaral wife get raped then what action he will take??
General there are lots of If`s and But`s in press, they are just waiting for you to be back from a sound trip.

HP #3 makes an half assed comment: ``Her presence in the US and the media attention would be a devastating blow for Islamist, religious fundamentalists``

Time for some fact check. The fact is:

1. that her rape was not instigated by maulvis
2. that her rape was not performed by maulvis
3. that her rape was not blamed on her by maulvis
4. that she was not denied justice by maulvis
5. that her travel abroad was not banned by maulvis

and finally

6. The fact is that it was indeed a maulvi who counselled her into making her story public.

Facts 1-5 are ample enough reason to hang the current secularist dictatorship and their supporters by the balls.

It is truly sad when seemingly educated folks try to blur the tragedy of a situation by blindly throwing the mud around and in the process diluting the intensity of focus, when clearly its the army and the current dictatorship that is to be blamed for this.

Its time to zero-in on the corrupt army. Nothing else matters as high on the list of urgent issues as this menace of this army elite that has its tentacles spread all over Pakistan`s civilian life.

I sometimes wonder if it is even realistic to hope for justice anymore, when we come across such horrendous and abominable stories….it becomes very difficult to understand the meaning of justice, honor, and freedom. It is all relative to who you are, what you are, and whom you know. I wonder how, in the name of ‘Justice’, a panchayat (council) justifies a gang rape….then the ‘Police’ refuse to acknowledge the crime…then the legal system frees the culprits on technical grounds, when there were hundreds of eye witnesses….and then to top it off…the govt. detains the poor soul and denies her the right to express and move about freely…. A total failure at all levels….

It is very disturbing for me to imagine the insecurity and vulnerability of a poor family in such a setup, where there is total disregard for human dignity. Mukhtaran Mai’s voice is a voice of hope and I pray that this dignified and courageous voice gets all the attention it can get. Pakistan is beautiful because of the likes of Mukhtaran Mai, who in their moments of despair and suffering, find reason to fight for those who have endured such injustices or are still vulnerable. Hats-off to her.

You said it navedhaqi, it is foolish from bbegining for us to even think that mai will ever get any justice and that Mushy`s enlightened moderation crap actually has something to do with cases like these.

Malik99,
Be-raather, why get mad at me?

Every time a woman gets up on the podium, demanding for her rights, the mullah brings out Islamic teaching to tell her it is not sanctioned by Islam.
The mullah brigade created the Hudood and Zina laws in Pakistan but I believe in this case, they would rely on good old Anglo-Saxon laws because if this is tried under Zina or Hudood laws, Islam would get a bad name.

Women rights in Pakistan are intricately linked with the Islamic laws mullah fight for vehemently. Whenever anybody talks about women’s right in Pakistan, he/she would come in conflict with the religious laws.

As soon as Mai gets in the US, people would be talking about oppressive Islamic laws in Pakistan in spite of your protests.
Well! it seems that this chapter is closed temporarily but knowing Asma, She is going to come out with another way.

There`s no point in suppressing this woman.The best strategy is to allow her to travel and speak about her ordeal.The positive impression India gets in the international press is due to the openness of our society or the projection of it!!.We do a good job of that and we bare our positives and negatives for all to see or read.This endears us to the common men and women of the world.And, they are the ones that influence buying and selling from products to services.

The biggest mistake pak is doing is trying to suppress reality and spreading the impression that pak is a wonderful place to invest, to sightsee and to do business with.Real people see through the whitewash.Pak will never learn from its`mistakes and that is the greatest tragedy of that country.

I don`t know why every1 linked with media is trying 2 make Mukhtaran Mai a heroine. Wen courts of law havnt found enough evidence to convict the accused wy every1 is pushing tht they should be punished. Meanz we r trying 2 preach tht we dont beleive in law of land? If its so then its not just linked with Mukhtaran Mai. It needs broader changes nd broader perspective 2 discuss. I beleive tht if courts didnt found enough evidence 2 convict the accused it means they r innocent nd media is trying 2 create a hype wrongfully. nd of course politicians are always keen 2 exploit ne such moment.

Re: # 10 How do u know abt the reality? wen al facts nd figures were represented in the court nd court found the accused not guilty wy al of u beleive tht Mukhtaran Mai only is right nd al other r wrong? Definately in such situation syphathies r always with the woman involved but facts are facts.

Re: # 12

You make an excellent point.I don`t know the reality nor am i assuming anything.In fact , i am on Pak`s side on this one.The best strategy would be to let her go wherever and speak.Very soon it will become evident if she`s a fraud or a victim.By letting her travel pak will attain a PR coup.By not , pak will only make things worse for itself.And only play into the hands of the effete individuals who make up 99% of all NGO`s.These people are subversive, elite, intellectual and have no scruples.They will use anything or anybody to attain their nefarious ends.

Re: # 2Thanks Gill........

I think like every successful bureaucrat Mushy has been trying his best to make the right powerpoint presentations but its catchy bullet points and slogans to the US bureaucracy.............he has played his cards very well...............while hiding the dirt under the carpet.....but the truth about his corrupt and dictatorial regime is coming out slowly despite the thuggery he is doing in trying to silence opposition through threats and coercion..............

At last, some sense! If this also turned out an analyeast`s take on some politico-socio-economic issue, I would have to take recourse to drugs! This Mai looks like one of those typical rape cases instigated, sanctioned, carried out and condoned by the parallel governments in the sub-continent, jirga and panchayats. In India, the cases of panchayat passing a proposal to dishonour women, throw a couple who married outside caste to lynch mobs and so on so forth very common. These institutions perpetuate and strnghten the baggage of milleniums and must be disbanded. Having seen their abominable ways first-hand, I can understand their cruelty and the entrencehd nature of politics carried out by elites using these tools.

Re: # 13
Unfortunately both india nd pakistan r surrounded by number of enemies having viscious objective 2 defame nd finally disintegrate both nations. The so called NGO`s r backed by these elements. They r alwayz ready 2 exploit ne issue tht can defame the motherland. How does Mukhtaran Mai belonging 2 illetrate rural background become so enlightened tht now she hav her own site. Definately sumbody is patronizing her, using her for sum personal objective. I condem both of Govt. movez 1st 2 arrest the rape accused even wen they were found not guilty by the court 2ndly 2 detain Mukhtaran Mai nd put her in ECL. But wht ever the reasonz of Govt. may b should we allow a person, like her who is obiviously a puppet in handz of enemies
2 speak against our motherland? Or wht gud wil it do if we allow her? As far as foreign media is concernd they in either case they wil try 2 exploit the situation. But which is the better way? If u r on pak side wht u suggest now?

Re: # 2

Strange isn`t it....

Our Neo-con dictator General has a soft spot for Rapes....

Remember how he protected `` The Captain `` of Dera Bugti .....and telling every One.
Pak Army has its own Laws and they do not need to follow the GOPs Law. and in the second breath acquitted `` the Captain ``. without any trial...

and again.... His antics in this case also show he has a soft corner ....Not for Mukhtaran Mai But for the 12 Accused.......... who for the 2nd time are released By the Other courts in pakistan....

......Thus confirming another failure of Pakistans Justice system....... and admitting that
Jirga Justice takes precedence our the countries Laws...

i smell a conspiracy here (and there and everywhere) ...........

........ it is the zionist-cia-hindoo axis of evil at work once again to discredit the motherland, the ummah, the prophet, the archangle gabriel and the good people of meerwala ....... and this time they are using the ngo cabal of baa-baa black sheeps, haramzadays, ghulam zadays and goora goo-chatters led by a woman of dubious character - asma jehangir - to pursue their nefarious designs ............. this.... this horrible woman is going to ruin pakistan unless someone stops her - unfortunately the only people who can stop her are busy blowing themselves up in kirkuk and baghdad ...............

....... but here is what really happened : mukhtaran mai is a woman of bad character (bad-challan aurat) who had consensual sex with half a dozen men and then walked out naked into the street as instructed by her handlers in langley, tel aviv and new delhi - this is the same crowd that planned 9-11 and started the aids epidemic in africa (and conspired with the sargodah board to deny my nephew a first division in his matriculation exam) ................. fortunately for us the courts in pakistan, which are known the world over for their sense of justice and fair play, recognized this conspiracy against the motherland and acquitted the poor men who had been seduced by this mata hari from meerwala ..............

...... bhaiyo and sisters, we must always be vigilant against the designs of the axis of evil which hates our way of life and is out to destroy it - first they tried to make our men impotent by putting powder in our pl-480 atta, then they tried to kill our children by contaminating polio drops, then the ngo`s tried to get our women to run around the streets of gujranwala in halter tops and sneakers, and now this................

#18 by hamidm2

ROTFL!! Welcome back Hamid Sahib. We missed you here. This one really cracked me up.

Re: # 11
Could you do us all a favor?
Write in English comprehensible to us. What is this chicken Shit?

Naeem Sadiq Sahib,
Bravo.
An extremely well written article. It is comprehensive in its scope, caustic in its critique; and reeks of truths a majority of Pakistanis are petrified to confront.
May God bless Mukhtar Mai with strength and fortitude.
Allah ki nagri mein der hai, Andhair nahi.

Her story is similar to the gang rape of Sanvari Devi of Rajasthan, India.
The cries of ``Mannay Nyae chahiye`` ( I want justice). These cries portrayed in the movie Bawandar by Nandita Das echo the cries of Mukhtar Mai. The gang rapists were released in Sanvari Devi`s case, yet she kept on doing the social work in her village and neighboring villages. Such parallels between two women.

Hamidm,
I love it. Such sarcasm!
You are almost a turn on. Dont worry, I know you are my dad`s age.

The cat`s outta the bag.......

Pakistan on Wednesday lifted a travel ban on the victim of a notorious gang rape after key ally the United States strongly condemned attempts to prevent her from leaving the country.
The turnaround came less than a day after Mukhtaran Mai, who was raped on the orders of a tribal jury in 2002, called on the government to remove her name from its so-called exit control list.

US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian affairs Christina Rocca had also said Washington was ``dismayed`` that Mai was stopped from going to the United States at the invitation of rights group Amnesty International.

``On a directive by Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, the name of Mukhtaran Mai has been removed from the exit control list,`` Aziz`s spokesman told AFP without elaborating

http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=13872764

Re: # 16
re: fnahmad:

You raise one seemingly valid point. If a court of law has ruled that the charge of gang rape is invalid, then that should lend an element of finality to the matter. However, if a judge who acquits a blasphemy accused is shot dead [1] and no one is brought to book on the matter (or so it seems, please correct me if anyone was convicted for this offense of shooting dead a sitting Judge of the Lahore High Court), if the Bishop of Faisalabad is so moved against the justice delivery system of Pakistan as to commit suicide[2] in front of it, then would you say that the justice delivery system in Pakistan is beyond reproach ? that the judges deliver justice without fear of the consequence, regardless of the view of the overwhelmingly powerful class / gender ?

You say:

/// [NGOs] r alwayz ready 2 exploit ne issue tht can defame the motherland. ///

This holy reverence for the ``motherland`` makes me sick. Gang rape, whether it happens in Sui or Manipur, Meerwala or Jaipur [3] is an abominable crime. To deal with reality by saying that it doesn`t happen here, hamare mard sab shareef hain is just escapism and worse, the provision of a shield for those who contemplate such brutality. Confront the rot in our societies, strike out against the ``root cause`` which impels courts in our countries to, for instance, acquit the accused in the Jaipur case referred to above on the grounds that ``an upper caste man could not have defiled himself by raping a lower-caste woman.``, and our countries will fear infamy less.

[Oh, and completely off topic but ...

The more repressed our population and the more illicit sex becomes, the more acts such as this will spread. The more we limit the space for the rightful expression of female sexuality, the more we will believe that women actually mean yes when they say no (because we do not allow our women to say yes).]

Motherland. bah.

`` Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!`` Albert Einstein

``You`ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.`` George Bernard Shaw

[1] http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/97/1024/feat5.html
[2] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/88890.stm
[3] http://people.indiatimes.com/quickies/msid-1106493.cms

Re: # 24
You have made an excellent rebuttal. Bravo!

Let me be devil’s advocate here.

For fear of being called insensitive, here is the truth: Mai so far, has made approx Rs. 2 Crores. She did open a school but there is no teacher in that school and if the school is in the same village she lived at the time of rape, there is not going to be any student there too. Folks would not send their kids to be on TV all the time.
If Mai visits Europe and the US, I am looking at another Rs.10 Crores that she would collect in the West.
That is a benefit to her and some justice also.

But the real benefits are:

The Human rights commission in Pakistan would gain instant international approval, recognition, and many donations.

The plight of women in Pakistan would be highlighted and that would be a huge blow to Islamist and the Mullah in Pakistan.

Her visit would provide another great opportunity to open yet another assault on Hudood and Zina laws. These laws must be repealed in Pakistan.

It may also provide an opportunity to get Blasphemy law out of the books in Pakistan.

Overall people Christina Rocca by pressuring the Pak govt has set the stage for a major assault on the fundamentalists and fundamentalism in Pakistan.

All Pakistanis and Indians on this site to please consider showing up at her appearances in your city, whenever she comes to the US. Donate money and if possible, alert local newspapers and media about her visit to your city.

I cannot beleive what type of statemnets i just read. Emotional and unreal. Mukhtaran Mai is a symbol of struggle. That is unacceptable for me as till now she did nothing except to promote herself and her locality. Let me clear one thing that these incidents are common in the areas like these and what Mukhtaran Mai did to stop them. Nothing. A single school is sufficient to say that she is working hard. A poloce chowky is what she got for her village or herself. People that are arrested as the supposed criminals were mostly not involve in the incident. It is the police who to show efficieny arrested the head of the MAUSTAI who left the PANCHAIT. Moreover it was not a PANCHIAT. It was just the people of family of MAUSTAI who gathered and there hesr FAIZ BAKISH MAUSTAI left the PANCHAIT on this decision of the family member that did it.
People are getting there own benefits from this incidents and Mukhtaran Mai is just another THING for them.

I cannot beleive what type of statemnets i just read. Emotional and unreal. Mukhtaran Mai is a symbol of struggle. That is unacceptable for me as till now she did nothing except to promote herself and her locality. Let me clear one thing that these incidents are common in the areas like these and what Mukhtaran Mai did to stop them. Nothing. A single school is sufficient to say that she is working hard. A poloce chowky is what she got for her village or herself. People that are arrested as the supposed criminals were mostly not involve in the incident. It is the police who to show efficieny arrested the head of the MAUSTAI who left the PANCHAIT. Moreover it was not a PANCHIAT. It was just the people of family of MAUSTAI who gathered and there hesr FAIZ BAKISH MAUSTAI left the PANCHAIT on this decision of the family member that did it.
People are getting there own benefits from this incidents and Mukhtaran Mai is just another THING for them.

Re: # 28

uh ????????

hamidm #18 I think some people here took you literally though. and are now certain that mukhtaran mai is the result of a conspiracy of the dreaded TPI Department of the secret NGO-US complex. ha! ha!

(TPI = Tarnish Pakistan`s Image Department).

just to show that things are equally bad (or the ummah is equally mad) on the wrong side of the border ....... the latest from BBC

Woman `ordered to marry rapist` !

An Indian woman who was allegedly raped by her father-in-law is now being ordered by a Muslim council of community elders to marry him. The council says under Islamic law the rape has nullified her marriage, according to media reports.

But a top Muslim body in India has rejected the argument saying it is not valid under Sharia (Islamic) law.

It says the council was not authorised to give such a verdict and added that the alleged rapist should be punished.

Reports say the 28-year-old woman was raped when she was alone at home in Charthawal, in the norther Indian state of Uttar Pradesh.

many years ago i took my mother to visit our relatives in jhang, the women of the family were saying they rarely go out because the people around here are jaanglee?. now i know what they meant.

Re: # 5
``General`` was like fish out of water but now he can catch his breath. He must thank ``PM`` because of him Mutharan was been denied for U.S Visa.

Mr fnahmad have courts of law so far found enough evidence to convict Zardari? Does it mean he is innocent?
The highest court of law declared that there is NO law of the country that could bar Shahbaz Sharif coming back to his country … did it make any difference?
Can you imagine a scenario where courts in Pakistan would deliver a verdict declaring Mush usurper while he is on throne?

What rubbish you are talking about man?

If I may ask you …any relationship with Mastois (rapists of Mukhtaran) or Sharifuddin Pirzada (nother habitual rapist)?

Bloody well, in your weird world Dr Shazia Khalid is an imposter, Mukhtraran is phoney, Veena Hayat is sham … only Mastois, Hammad and Murwat are angels.
Should we do a ba-jamaat dua that you should go through a similar situation … only to enhance your empathy and strengthen your understanding?

People seem to be associating Mukhtar Mai`s rape with maulvis. I don`t think any maulvis were involved. I believe the local maulvi actually helped her. And I think she is, herself, now, teaching Quran, in her own school.

In her case, it was a panchayat based tribal/feudal judiciary system, which gave the order.........Apparently, everyone seem bent on using her incidence to push their own points. I think people should figure out who the guilty party is, and highlight them.......

It is all a question of authority. Whenever one entity has authority over another, it can get away with anything it wants..........All such incidences happen in the tribal/feudal areas..........That whole system needs to be changed...........

subedar #34 Perfect nishaana, sir. Right between the eyes. If I may say so.

Re: # 31

I agree!!.I saw an interview of the muftis on tv where they alleged that the woman in question, Imrana, must have made advances to her father-in-law, and therefore she`s equally guilty and both the old man and she must be punished.Meanwhile, neighbors interviewed said that the old man had a history of making advances to his daughters-in-law and the other brothers just moved away and didn`t report it to anyone in authority.Imrana meanwhile says she will abide by the decision of the Sharia.We`re equally crazy this side of the border.

Also, Jajjhar district supt. of Police Hanif Qureshi, in Haryana state, says on national tv that there is no vendetta against Mansour Ali Khan Pataudi and he must surrender to police to answer charges about the endangered black buck in the trunk of his car.Another case of madness in my country.Why can`t they slap a fine and let him off?.Why this drama?.And, tax payers money pays for these investigations.Meanwhile, `real` criminals traipse through without let or hindrance.What are we gonna do?.

Re: # 34
1- Mr fnahmad have courts of law so far found enough evidence to convict Zardari? Does it mean he is innocent? The highest court of law declared that there is NO law of the country that could bar Shahbaz Sharif coming back to his country … did it make any difference?
Can you imagine a scenario where courts in Pakistan would deliver a verdict declaring Mush usurper while he is on throne?

*Well all these examples are of political cases nd its altogether a different domain having very different reasons. The current issue is totally non political nd due to our emotional nature as a nation a gud opportunity for both politicianz nd NGOz to exploit it for their vested interests. All over the world the courts dont take emotional decisions they work on evidence. You can`t give death penalty 2 the accused just because the sentiments of masses are against them. If the whole things have actually taken place as stated then its the duty of police to collect all evidences to strengthen the case. If you think sanely you can`t blame the judiciary.

2-What rubbish you are talking about man?

*Well I have right to give my opinion and you have right to disagree. But mind your language. I do care for your sentiments but you can`t take a decision about someones death based upon sentiments.

3-If I may ask you …any relationship with Mastois (rapists of Mukhtaran) or Sharifuddin Pirzada (nother habitual rapist)?

Definately its again a sentimental approach towards what ever I said. I have nothing to do with any of the parties. All I said before and I still say that things should be taken rationally.

Bloody well, in your weird world Dr Shazia Khalid is an imposter, Mukhtraran is phoney, Veena Hayat is sham … only Mastois, Hammad and Murwat are angels.
Should we do a ba-jamaat dua that you should go through a similar situation … only to enhance your empathy and strengthen your understanding?

*Again its just an unreasonable and childish behaviour. If you have any arguments you have every right 2 speak out. But in a reasonable manner.

why NGo wants to take mukhtaran outside country.
she need justice from the country men where she belongs.her name is striked off from the
ECL list , ordered from USA.BUSH should have ordered Pakistan to arrest the culprits.
After all we are working for them.istead of OSAMA they captured mai.what a nation!

Mukhtaran Mai to me is a big heroine who should be considered for a Nobel prize for her courage and bravery.

But let`s be fair and honest about this and not use it to beat our favourite bad guys, the mullahs and the faujis. Neither the quran nor the Prophet condoned the rape of a woman, except of the kafir variety; the village mullah in this case was the one who is said to have been instrumental in bringing this case into the open.

The fauji government did its best, and is doing its best to bring justice to Bibi. If it has not been able to do so, the blame should lie in the western justice system which puts excessive burden of proof on the victim. The system breaks down when witnesses are too afraid or otherwise unwilling to testify against criminals. It happened to Sanwari Devi in India, it happened in Canada to the accused of Air India bombers, and it happened in the U.S where the government had to use IRS to nail Mafia people.

The government did try to save the country from getting a bad international image. This is what every government does and Faujis are no different in this regard. What they can be accused of is acting so clumsily that they have ended up doing the opposite of what they wanted; Pakistan is getting a much blacker eye than it would have if they would have let Mukhtaran Bibi travel. She had nothing against the government and could have been asked to cooperate while abroad to give due recognition to the support that she has received from the government and civil society. But that kind of deeper thinking may be beyond those who wear big boots.

dost mittar #40 you write ``Neither the quran nor the Prophet condoned the rape of a woman, except of the kafir variety``

I was surprised that you - who should know better - would write this canard about the holy book of muslims and of the prophet. I suggest you retract this statement along with an apology, or (if you believe it be true), provide the source of your information.

Mukhtaran Mai free to travel outside Pakistan

It took US pressure to get the government to undo its outrage. I wonder what the fools and oppressors of the weak in Islamabad think about their bloody image that they are so concerned with.

tahmed32#41:

I do not want a qualifying clause to a sentence in my post to derail the topic of discussion. But we can come back to that subject on a more appropriate thread. Sorry to disappoint you.

dost mittar #43 Lets not get into legalese (``qaulifying clause``). Coming from you, the canard is indeed disappointing. Being a gentleman, I hope you will realize retract it and apologize (as I suggested), rather than push it under the rug as you propose.

further to #44: I have to go for now, but will look forward to an honest response (which I have come to expect from you after all these years on chowk) from you and will be glad to get back to the rest of #40 later if you wish.

tahmed32:

Please visit unplugged. Thanks!

Dost-mittar #40: Interesting reply. Quite accurate, by the way. I think there maybe a lot of pressure to not let Mai get too much exposure, by the sitting MNAs. The unraveling of the landed jagirdari system, is their biggest fear..........

````Neither the quran nor the Prophet condoned the rape of a woman, except of the kafir variety``

I didn`t know this. I am surprised you threw this in there. If Mai would have been Christian, it would have, then been alright, according to your understanding. Could you tell me where this is allowed. I didn`t know I was allowed to rape women of the, ``kafir`` variety. I learn something new from you, regarding Islam, every week..........

dost mittar #46 I checked unplugged, and see there nothing that cannot be discussed right here on the front page where you made the comment. Specifically you ask: ``Now, if you can give a CONCRETE answer to the question: what is the sharia punishment for the rape of a non-muslim woman by a muslim and what kind of witness is required to prove the crime, I would do what you wanted me to do. ``

The concrete answer is this: You referred to the Quran in #40, not to the sharia. So please dont change the subject.

In any case, sharia is not the word of God. It is the edict of the muslim king as implemented through the qazis who were beholden to him for their livelihood.

You also posted a reference from the Quran concerning ``those whom your right hand possesses`` as being concubines. Only a wild stretch of imagination would consider this equivalent to condoning rape of non-muslim women, which is what you had said.

While I realize from the evidence on chowk that insulting minority religions is accepted practice among Indians (as evidenced by their posts), I am hoping you will be able to rise above the level of the majority of your countrymen.

Re: # 48

tahmed,

.........you are a shameless obscurantist, hiding behind the nonsense of ``this is in the koran`` or ``that is in not in the koran``............... the fact of the matter is that the hadith and sunnah might reflect the dubious, often contradictory and problematic practices of the prophet, but they are still part and parcel of islam, whether you like it or not ...........denial and delusion does not change the facts .........

....... what is the punishment for rape according to the koran ?............ can you find it anywhere in the koran ?.............. no?.........okay, then dost-mittar is right because according to the sharia, the punishment for raping an infidel is not the same as that for raping a muslima .............

....... accept the facts and get on with it ......

tahmed32#48:

``You also posted a reference from the Quran concerning ``those whom your right hand possesses`` as being concubines. Only a wild stretch of imagination would consider this equivalent to condoning rape of non-muslim women, which is what you had said.``

They were not concubines or mistresses, but wives, daughters and sisters of unbelievers defeated by the Prophet and his soldiers who were legitimised as their ``right hand possession``.

``While I realize from the evidence on chowk that insulting minority religions is accepted practice among Indians (as evidenced by their posts), I am hoping you will be able to rise above the level of the majority of your countrymen.``

Corretion: Criticising all religions is an accepted practice among Indians. The trouble is that when I condemn Hindu religion for heinous human rights abuses in their religion, such as sati, untouchability, plight of widows or even criticise Ram and Krishan, they don`t even try to defend it, except a measly ``yes, but we are doing something about it``

all mush needed was a little slap on the wrist ! ....... it is nice to see the natives fall in line ....


Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 16, 2005; Page A22

After a stern protest by the Bush administration, Pakistan yesterday lifted travel restrictions imposed on a Pakistani gang-rape victim, freeing her to visit the United States for a series of high-profile speeches.

Why am I not surprised by convenient omission of the Shar`ia court`s capital punishment for the 6 perpetrators, which was overturned by the civil/secular/british/western court system two years later. A punishment the AJ`s ilk et al see fit for the crime but hesitate to admit, unless it`s delivered by any system other than Shar`ia.

Indeed, admission of this minor detail would be a travesty and bad publicity for the `fair and square` seculars and their western patrons.

hamidm2`s sarcasm is not entirely that after all, albeit his antithetical intentions.

:-)~~


PS:

tahmed32, I`m a 100% with you on your argument with DM. However, I think you`re confusing Shar`ia with Fatwa in #48. But don`t worry, you`re still the man on this one, so please don`t relent.

Jazak-Allah for your effort :-)~~

Re: hamdm2 #31
What made you think that our “nuts” are better than your “nuts”.

Faruk

Re: hamdm2 #31
What made you think that our “nuts” are better than your “nuts”.

Faruk

Travel ban on rape victim lifted BUT WITH A TWIST : BBC REPORTS

Mukhtar Mai decided to go public about the rape
The Pakistan government has lifted a foreign travel ban on the victim of a high profile gang rape, Mukhtar Mai.
But Ms Mai has told the BBC that her passport has been confiscated so the move is meaningless.

The ban has prevented Ms Mai from taking up an invitation from human rights group Amnesty International to travel to the United States.

Officials had said she had to stay in Pakistan until court cases around the rape were resolved.

But critics said the move was a ploy intended to protect Pakistan`s international image.

Brother`s offence

The office of Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz issued a brief statement on Wednesday announcing that Ms Mai had been taken off the Exit Control List that names people who are not allowed out of Pakistan.


Pakistani rights groups say Ms Mai (left) has shown courage

On the same day Ms Mai spent two hours at the US consulate in Islamabad but did not obtain a visa.

US officials say that Ms Mai had withdrawn her request for the visa.

Women rights activists say that this is because she has come under unprecedented pressure from the government not to travel to the US.

Ms Mai subsequently told the BBC by mobile telephone from a secret location that the Pakistani authorities had confiscated her passport.

Ms Mai was raped by several men in 2002, allegedly on the orders of a self-styled village council of influential feudal leaders.


The punishment was allegedly ordered because of a sexual indiscretion allegedly committed by her younger brother.

The case continues to attract international attention. Twelve men are currently behind bars in connection with the case.

In March the Lahore High Court ordered acquitted five men sentenced to death for the rape and reduced the sentence of another to life imprisonment.

The court said there was insufficient evidence in the initial trial, which was conducted by an anti-terrorism court.

The government of the province of Punjab subsequently ordered the detention of 12 men originally implicated in the case. The Lahore High Court has now said they should be released.

`Pressure`

Ms Mai said earlier this week that she had been kept under ``virtual house arrest`` in her home village.

Officials said they were acting entirely in her interests by assigning several dozen police officers to guard her in her home village.


Non-government organisations and activists campaigning for women`s rights say that the restrictions on Ms Mai`s movements have reflected the pressure the government is putting on her.

They say the government has shot itself in the foot by introducing the measures, because her case is well known internationally.

The government is fighting an appeal in the Supreme Court against the Lahore High Court overturning the convictions of the men sentenced to death for the gang rape.

Re: # 52

ntsyed,

........ just for the record ..........i am against capital punishment under any circumstances - no one has the right to take another person`s life even if he is a pedophile murderous mullah .......... and for the same reason, i am also against abortion even if it results in the birth of a jihadi who will grow up to be a suicider or homicider ..........of course, i am all for expanding gitmo to accomodate the scum of the earth ............

ClosetMullah32 - give it up man. Accept that islam is full of fascist ideas against kufrs and it has been a powerful source of inspiration for muslim desperados thorugh the years, as it is now.

dost:

trying to stir hornet`s nest;) (pls. note the icon)

am not following the entire debate here... just a quck reply to your query...but before that a personal comment...contrary to deeply held misperceptions there is nothing in qur`an or islam that prohibits use of common sense to address an issue!

also, bhai sahib a rape is a rape is a rape....it is a gross violation of another person`s body (woman or man) and the religion of the victim should be furthest from anyone`s mind!

(the following is a fairly accurate reflection on the subject. some of the language is harsh but fairly accurate and representative of the real islam as i understand ...so help me Allah!-t)

The victims of rape, if they notify the authority immediately, will have enough proofs to convict most, if not al,l the accused rapists, as the physical facts including semen, saliva, blood, hair, fibers, skin scraps, bite marks,.....etc. are so many and easy to identify to convict the rapist. There is no truth to the claimed rumor that the rape victim has to present four witnesses to prove the rape when there are so many other physical proofs.

*Islam (Submission) treats both men and women equally and a woman victim of rape cannot be blamed for the crime that happened to her. There is no where in the Quran any indication to blame the rape victim instead of blaming the rapist. When and if this happens, it does not represent Islam but represents cultural understanding and man made laws, not God`s commands in the Quran.

*The so called sex slaves, or captives of wars are not permitted in Islam, nor the rape of women captured during war. No slaves are allowed any more in Islam. All the stories circulating around and found on some sites on the Internet or missionaries` books are derived from the corruption deliberately spread in the books called Hadith and Sunna which were written about 200 years after the death of the prophet Muhammad. These books do not represent Islam nor the Islamic law, but rather represent man made laws written against the commands of the prophet Muhammed and the commands of God in the Quran. None of these Hadith stories and its corruption represent Islam, and should never be used to represent Submission(Islam). Submission is represented by God`s law (Quran alone) and it is very clear in the Quran. A book, that God called complete, perfect and fully detailed. Islam holds the highest moral values when it comes to the prisoners of wars and their rights. Women captured during war time are not possession of the victorious army as some claim, but they are to be treated like all prisoners of wars with respect and dignity. Islam does not give any permission to abuse these women, use them as sex slaves, rape them or force them to marry anyone. If any Muslim army broke these laws at any time during the old days or recent days, they were only representing their own failure and they never represented Islam (Submission). Their action cannot be considered representing Islam as much the action of Adolf Hitler cannot be considered as representing the peaceful loving side of Christianity. For the Rest CLICK HERE