Mukhtaran Mai vs. the Rest of Pakistan

AlephNull:

I agree with what you say except that I wouldn`t single out Islam. The heart of the problem is the concept of blasphemy and this concept was not invented by the prophet of Islam.

HP:
You did not recognize the basic distinction that I tried to make between ideology and people. Blacks are not an ideology and neither for that matter are Muslims or Hindus, but I would see no problem in someone criticising Rastafarian ideology even if it is associated mostly with Blacks. As far as my being insensitive, I tried my best to be sensitive to people`s feelings while expressing my thoughts but if kafir is a hateful word, I got it straight from the Book.
It is frustrating when one cannot get through to people even when agreeing with them, which is the case here. This is a good way to get back to the topic. My views on the issue are identical to yours. I do not associate Mukhtaran`s plight to Islam but to a deep malaise in the society and a need to reform a judicial system which makes the burden of evidence too burdensome. What Mukhtaran has done becomes even more admirable when one realises that she probably grew up believing that there was nothing wrong in the type of punishment meted out to her. In this respect, it is instructive to recall the reaction of her family who protested against the decision not because Mukhtaran was innocent but because the allegation against her brother was false. This is what living in a system does to you. I KNOW! Fifty years ago, in the heart of metropolitan Delhi, I would never have offered my hand to my street sweeper and, even if I did, he would not have accepted the proffered hand but would have merely folded his hands, his eyes firmly planted on the ground.
I hope that this is the end of digression on this thread.

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Mukhtaran Mai is invited to the U.S. Read the following news item.

June 17, 2005 Friday Jumadi-ul-Awwal 9, 1426

US invites Mukhtaran Mai

By Anwar Iqbal

WASHINGTON, June 16: The United States has officially informed Pakistan that gang-rape victim Mukhtaran Mai has been invited to visit the country and has also urged the Pakistan Embassy in Washington to facilitate her visit.

“We have advised Pakistani officials that she was invited to the US by a Pakistani organization based in the US,” State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told a Wednesday afternoon briefing in Washington. “Ms Mai is welcome to travel to the United States at any time.”

Mr McCormack described Mai as “a courageous woman who is a victim of a horrendous crime” and said that Assistant Secretary of State Christina Rocca has discussed Mai’s planned visit to the United States with Ambassador Jehangir Karamat.

Meanwhile, the Asian-American Network against Abuse of Human Rights, the group which has invited Mai, said on Thursday that authorities in Pakistan have confiscated her passport along with the visa and has forced her to return to her village.

“This is not acceptable. Instead of stopping her, the government should facilitate her travel,” said a spokesman for the group.

Mai told BBC that the Prime Minister’s Adviser on Women Affairs, Ms Neelofar Bakhtiar, confiscated her passport when she returned from the US Embassy in Islamabad after receiving the visa.

Also on Thursday, the Pakistan Embassy in Washington issued another statement on the controversy saying that the government was fully sympathetic to the plight of Mukhtaran Mai and had assured her every possible support and protection.

“The government has taken a number of steps to bring the accused to justice, including lodging of an appeal in the Supreme Court of Pakistan against the decision of a lower court on behalf of Ms Mai,” the statement said.

dost mittar #125 I am sorry to keep picking on your posts, but you make such off-the-wall statements, like ``What Mukhtaran has done becomes even more admirable when one realises that she probably grew up believing that there was nothing wrong in the type of punishment meted out to her. ``

Do you seriously believe that muslim women are taught that it is OK for them to be raped as punishment?? The extent of mischief that (at least as appears from such statements even by intelligent, well-meaning people like you) has been done in India wrt misrepresenting and defaming minority religions is mind-boggling.

Dear Tahmed32:

I am now beginning to have some doubts about how you read posts. My dear sir, that statement had nothing to do with being Muslim or Islamic but with the Indo-Pakistan society. Please go see Bawander, one of my favourite films, which describes the horror that Sanwari Devi went through for a similar situation in India.

It is amazing that people single out a wrongdoing and beat it up especially if it is in Pakistan or a Muslim associated with it. Wrong doing are happening every where many times worse than the case of Mukhtaran; my true sympathise for her and promise her that if her case is true, the culprits would suffer both in this world and hereafter - that’s my belief; she remains pure as her will was not there, and the society should stand by her.

As far as her going to other country is concerned, I can understand why the government is reluctant; for sure it knows that the international media will remain oblivious to 1000 good events happening in Pakistan, but blow out of proportion if some bad event took place. If Pakistan government is not telling other governments to send victims in their country to Pakistan, so they could propagate victim’s stories in media and bash other countries, other countries have no right to ask Pakistan for the same. The best policy is mind your own business, just as Indian government tells international media that mass killings of minorities is an internal matter of India, so let it be with other countries too.

Having said that let me say that all such cases should be condemned without any racism, ethnicity, and colour or religion association. I can present many cases in developed countries done by Hindus, or other religion followers. For example, these days an Indian doctor is under trial for killing around 100 patients in Australia, a year before another Indian doctor`s license was cancelled because he committed rape of his white lady patient, some Indian restaurants have been closed down because of non-hygienic conditions and even programs shown on television. Now should one start talking about these wrong doing due to their association with Hindu religion? or Indian nationality? A wise person would not say so, and it should not be, for the culprits are individuals at least in these cases, countries and religions should not be labelled in.

dost mittar #128 So you say you meant that it is not just Pakistan but in India as well that you believe women are taught that it is OK for them to be raped as punishment?? Even if this is what you meant, this still remains an absurd statement.

Re: # 180 sif
//..Indian government which hijacked its own commercial place for almost 40 hours...//

Pakis are like that fool in Groundhog Day. The story never changes. No matter what happens in the wide world - pakis are still stuck in the same old tired stories and mythologies.

So what other gems do you have? Let me guess:

1. Jews blew up WTC on 9/11/2001.
2. Hinuds staged attack on their parliament.
3. Talibans are just students
4. Jihad is just a word.
5. Cockroach is a bird.

Re: # 131
Arjun you will never understand...ok you want to talk about stupidity...how about Indian government which hijacked its own commercial place for almost 40 hours and place it under security at the corner of its airport claming that the Muslim Kashmiri militant have hijacjed it, but when no sound story turned out (bad homework for the drama!)...a simple statement was made :it was a misunderstanding, and that the plane was not hijacked! All this was done to get closer to USA by showing that they are victims like them too under the hands of Muslim extremists! (just a month after 9/11 incident)...you want to learn more stupidities of your government...but before I go on, let me stop, here I am not for tit for tat. I am only here to reason and put forward my own view points so let me go back...

tahmad #132, its not a weakness, rather it is a way of telling the international agencies that you are not to be taken for granted, and that you have your own soverign ways of doing thing - not to react in the way the international agencies want you to act. They want to ridicule you in regards to your justice system, which they have no right to if they are not doing the same with other countries, especially developed countries. Why don’t these agencies take the defence ministers, army generals or commanders of the developed countries for their human and other rights violations? Sorry pick and choose that is strongly biased against our country should not be allowed rather strongly dealt with. We are capable enough for the justice on our own. Yes, nevertheless, I must add here that there is one positive side of this internationalisation - a positive pressure on the justice system, though it has its the darker side too - acting under pressure and in the name of justice doing what the international agencies desire, which may or may not be the true justice.

#129 by sifzal on June 17, 2005 5:45am PT

So what you`re saying is that Pakistan is the poor victim here....?

Even if we assume that to be true, what do you think about the monumental stupidity shown by your government in handling the situation...the bit about putting her on the ECL than taking her off(but taking her passport and thinking no one would figure it out)....

sifazl #129 So you think the it is OK to muzzle mukhtaran mai because the ``the international media will remain oblivious to 1000 good events happening in Pakistan, but blow out of proportion if some bad event took place.``

Your post betrays a very weak character - you wish to suppress the truth because you are so afraid of this dreaded ``international press`` will say. What a mindset!!

tahmed32:

Please use your common sense. We are not talking in the context of all of India and Pakistan but of of Mukhtaran Mai from Meerawaal and Saanwri Devi from a village in Rajasthan. We are talking about pockets of some very traditional societies where the old tribal laws/customs are still the norm. These are societies from where you sometimes read about a girl child married to a dog (in India and among Hindus, NOT Pakistan or Muslim, in case you overreact again!).

dost-mittar,

...... i think you are bending over backwards to be nice to mr tahmed ............ the fact of the matter is that political islam today is what it is - a violent ideology bent upon destroying modern civilization - and no amout of wishy washy white washing will make the problem go away ........... following is a good example of the ``mainstream`` :

dailyt

Re: # 135

Romair:

Bigotry comes out of ignorance, very few people who have been here would say that Dost-Mitter is a bigot. He quoted a verse from Quran, which reads to exclude someone reachable by right hand from the edict. This verse is subject to many interpretations for the both uninitiated and initiated. However, it is a defensive leap from there to state religious sanctioning of rape of non-muslims. I would like to learn about your and Tahmed`s interpretation of this verse. Critique (= bigot) or exlcusion of someone from commenting is like banning freedom of speech. It is akin to the example that I mentioned where an ardent Hindutvawadi was almost ready to pounce on me, because I dared to challenge him on good Hindu and bad Hindu.

Religion has immense power over human mind. It, in those moments when we do not have answers from what I call ``rational`` world, we seek answer through a belief system. This is why, according to me, religion gets the higher slot than ideologies.

To me, religious doctrines are also human thoughts, just as ideologies are, although with a different purpose altogether. I would not call you or Tahmed bigots, just because you or him would say negative things about Hinduism. One thing that I have learned from spending my time at Chowk, is that Islam is also not a monolith. There are shades in it also. It is this important message that is lost, becuase to an outsider, Quran is vocally (at times violently) held at such a dizzying height. People even on this board have tried to put political Islam down, as we speak there is a presidential election going on in Iran. What would you call that democratic process, a political Islam and condemn it or accept it as a reform movement and a very Iranian process. My vote would be for the later. Just as I accept Indian democracy as very Indian, not political hinduism.

I have faith in rational thinking mind that would. I would certainly add quite a few. I have read Radhakrishnan`s write-up on Manu-smriti. He has quoted verses where castes are defined as law of society, and then he has also quoted verses from Manu-smriti where it says these laws are changeable and challengeable. What does it mean, to me the latter part is more important, and reinforces my belief that hinduism is kind of common law of religion. Changeable, Challengeable and Interprettable differently by different generations and societies. Why I like this because I hate castes as the most demeaning form, I know many from the grandparents generations in my own family who practised the former part. The same way some believe in certain part of other religions sacred verses while others believe in others. This to me is a human quality and nothing to do with religion. It is humans who play smoke and mirror. Quran and Manu-smriti are undeniable written documents.

Anil

Anil/Dost-Mittar #113: “It was very interesting to see how Romair and Tahmed32 jumped to a distorted meaning and implication of your statements………What bewilders me is the power of religion over mind. How suddenly people are affected. Almost like opium.”

My comment had nothing to do with religion, or with the concept of criticism. As I stated, I think everything, including religion, should be critiqued. I spend a good deal of my time, on this site critiquing Islam. And have been declared an Ahmedi, a non-Muslim and God knows what, by people on this site. However, I refrain from critiquing other religions, since I don’t have much knowledge of them.

In the first case, I would be a critic. In the later case, I could end up being a bigot, if I formed strong opinions about Hinduism and expressed them, without having knowledge of the subject. You will never find me doing that. I have thus critiqued everything under the sun, on this site. But have never critiqued the Hindu faith (or any faith, other than Islam). It doesn’t matter how people react to it. I consider it my moral responsibility to behave in a certain manner.

Thus my comments, to Dost-Mittar, were about bigotry. There is a difference between criticism and bigotry. I am very pro-criticism. But I am very anti-bogotry. Bigotry is the basis of violence and discrimination. I would oppose Dost-mittar’s comments, equally, had he said all Blacks are rapists. Or Blacks are rapists because they belong to a certain ethnic group. Or because that is what they are taught. Or that they are allowed to be rapists.

In today’s world, generalizations against religions, ethnicities etc. are used to create a lot of discrimination. The people who posh such discrimination, never do so blantantly. They hide them behind generalizations, and, “critiques.”

If you can convince me that every Hindu’s religion tells him to murder non-Hindus and rape non-Hindus, then you can very easily get me riled up against him. I would want to kill him, before he murdered me. These are, basically, the two statements that D-M has made.

Even then, there is nothing wrong with such statements. Provided one can back them up with logical arguments and facts. But if one cannot do so, again and again, then I think one needs to first become a student of the subject. And then become a critic.

This is what I have been trying to explain to D-M over the years. He has a tendency to make outrageous statements about Islam (which is no different than making outrageous statements about other nationalities, ethnicities, genders etc.), and then can never back them up with an argument. He writes it off to, “legitimate criticism.” And assumes that other people are just too sensitive to his comments. If one uses that criteria, then all bigotry is legitimate criticism…………

I am, thus, simply challenging Dost-Mittar on his comments. I would do the same, had he, “criticized” Innuits or Haitians or Kurds, Bengalis or Jews, or anyone else, in a similar manner………And I feel it is a person’ right, and in fact responsibility to challenge prejudiced comments, i.e. strong opinions that cannot be backed up with facts…………

hamidm#34:

Mr. tahmed is a wrong target. He does not believe in political Islam. If only all Muslims believed Islam to be what tahmed does, there would be nothing to be critical about. His only problem is that he looks for anti-muslim statements which would make a Mcarthy proud.

Re # 135

And I suppose you would challenge dost-mittar if he were to say positive things about Islam and Muslims for the same reasons...