Bunty aur Babli: The latest RSS-BJP tango

in #256 the phrase ``(and the British build an empire...`` should read ``(and the British did not build an empire...``.

btw, nice job in maintaining a civilized tone, gb/PewResearch/Mike. Now I am getting worried about what you are up to. :-)

Mike/gb #250 There is certainly no plausible gain the British could have had by creating an artificial famine in Bengal (and the British build an empire and influence every corner of the world for two hundred years by being stupid).

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of the Japanese Empire that would have replaced the British Empire in India if the japs had won the war. The British Empire, even at its worst stage in 1857, never came close to the brutality of the japs. Thus, while sikhs and gurkhas fought bravely against the brits, once defeated the brits sought to be-friend them rather than to annihilate them. The jap philosophy was the opposite - a defeated foe (unless he was already dead) deserved no respect, no dignity - only to be worked as a slave, used for medical experiments, or simply butchered/starved to death if there was no other use for him. If you wish to learn more about what Bose would have brought into India on the same red carpet that you say he would have been welcomed by Indians, I suggest you google on Unit 731 (the infamous japanese ``medical research`` unit in manchuria that dissected humans live in order to ``study`` their live organs; expermented with germ warfare by infecting entire villages from the air; and so forth.

#253 by drlokraj

”HP you are talking about the days when BJP was in power.”

No I am not! Winning and losing elections don’t mean a thing. Indian political scene is still dominated by Hindutva and Congress plays that card too.
BJP may have lost elections one time. They way things are in India; BJP may be in power in the next elections.
When I talk about “New History” I am not talking about the text books. Text books don’t teach History. History is taught and distorted at the other media. People learn stories from the text books, they read history when they are able to understand and analyze it and are inspired by it.

southasian #249 Your post is interesting insofar as it illustrates the way of thinking that misled Bose and the Indian leaders (except Jinnah). Thus:

1. you say ``it was the Chinese resistance that triggered Japanese brutality. `` This is a ``blame the victim`` way of thinking. Do you seriously think that 35,000,000 Chinese were killed merely to suppress Chinese resistance?? The facts are a google away, the books are available, photographs of Chinese men and women being bayonnetted to death. And this is just one country!! What did Mao Tse-tung, Ho Chi Minh, Soekarno, Marcos, all know about the japs that the Indian leadership did not.

2. you say ``With eventual defeat of Japan and Germany, of course, an ideal scenario would have emerged: an Independent India with both Japanese and British nowhere near India. I am sure SC Bose had a plan of this nature up his sleave. ``

If this is what Bose had in mind, then this would certainly re-inforce my point that the man was unltra-stupid. Do you seriously think that, having beaten the nazis and japs, the Brits would have stepped aside to let the INA into India??

If definition of hindutva is to mean those voting for BJP , then 36% of the 650 million strong adult Indian electorate can be said to be hindutva-waadis....

#247 by dost-mittar

”For my friend HP who fancies all 800 million Hindus to be members of RSS/VHP”

Unlike you I don’t get my inspiration from Bollywood movies. I can make a clear distinction between who is RSS/VHP and Hindutva-vadi or who is ``soft Hindutva-vadi” and who is for secularism.
I would say nice try but still NO cigar for you!

No two people think alike but they can be inspired by one philosophy. There is an ideological struggle going on in India between the Secularism and the Hindutva. Right now Hindutva is winning the battle and new history is being written in India that is the history of bigotry and the purpose is to bring down the old symbols of secularism and Indian freedom movement and promote icons that were either on the fringe or were communal.

I know who eulogizes Godse and Savarkar and who brings down Nehru and promotes that nincompoop Jaswant Singh for crying out loud!

In my every post I make a clear and conscious attempt to distinguish people based on their political leanings and not on their national or religious beliefs. Contrary to some of your friends, who call every Pakistani a Jihadi or terrorist, I exactly know who is close to RSS/VHP is and who is not.

I know India a whole lot better than you think and I know where people are coming from. So please don’t try pulling a rug over the reality in India. There may be 800 million Hindus in India but there are 1000 millions Indians in India too.
There are many trends and ideologies that play out in the arena but today’s reality is that the Hindutva ideology, which is based on bigotry, communalism, and religious symbolism, dominates the Indian body politics. I don’t think all 800 millions Hindu subscribes to it but I do know that vast majority of Indian middleclass subscribes to it. So a Hindu Majority may be communal but to say that all Hindus are communal would not be accurate and I would not do that.

Re: # 251
HP you are talking about the days when BJP was in power.Yes they tried to all those things but have they succeeded.Indian masses showed them the door and there is no way for them to come back and BJP knows that.Thats why they are desparately trying to find some issue for the next elections.The history books we read didnot even mention about Savarkar and the Hindutwa ideology and same books are still being taught in schools.

Being a hindu does not mean being RSS/BJP supporter like all muslims are/were not supporters of muslim league.

Tahmed..how about this perspective....the British created artificial food scarcity in India , heavily taxed the poor farmers , starved to death 3 million Indians every year during their 150-200 year rule.

Famines were virtually unheard of in India before the British came , but in 200 years of the Raj , there were 40-50 severe famines resulting in millions of starvation deaths. 80% of India`s population was left below poverty line , i.e. , on the brink of starvation ,by the time the British left. Those who were killed in Jallianwala Bag were lucky in comparison.

In my previous post, I forgot to mention that I saw the film `Samadhi` and whenever Bose ``appeared`` in the film, the hall resounded with cheers, and people stood when they played Azad Hind Fauj`s national anthem ``shubh sukh chain ki varsha barse bharat bhagya hai jaaga``. The song had the same rhyme and tune as India`s national anthem. And the national greetings ``Jai Hind`` also started in the Azad Hind Fauj.

``We are taught about Gandhi and Nehru in our school books. Netaji Bose is reduced to a little footnote. Gandhi is lionised by the successive governments while Netaji ignored.``

Some interesting trivia....
One of the popular barometers in any country is the popular culture, such as films. Soon after Independence, two smash hits were produced in India and any Pakistani buzurg, such as teshah would remember, too, as Indian films had not yet been banned there. The first was `Shaheed` which catapulted Dilip Kumar to stardom and started the off-screen romance between Dilip and his heroine, Kamini Kaushal; it was about a revolutionary - someone like Bhagat Singh - who is hanged because of his ``terrorist/freedom fighter`` activities. Some of you may have heard the famous song from the film, ``Watan kee raah mein watan ke naujawaan shahed ho``. The film was also noteworthy for Punjabis as it shot Surinder Kaur to fame as a playback singer for her song, `Bachpan kee yaad dheeray dheeray pyar ban gayee``. The second film was `Samadhi` with Ashok Kumar and Kamini Kaushal (song - ik baar tu mera ban ja oh pardesi, bas phir dekh mazaa`). It was a fiction around two brothers fighting on the opposite side of the war as British and INA officers.

Since then, other films have been made about Bhagat Singh but no film maker saw any potential in making a film about Gandhi or Nehru. The Indian government supported Attenborough`s production of Gandhi with both finances and logistics. The film was a hit abroad but bombed in India. This is not surprising as the concept of non-violence appealed more to the Christian West to than to Hindu India.

For my friend HP who fancies all 800 million Hindus to be members of RSS/VHP, this happened during the time when Nehru was the Prime Minister and even the Jan Sangh was not born. On the other hand, the film on Savarkar made during the BJP rule, completely bombed at the box office. While Bose and Bhagat Singh are heroes in the minds of the people, government`s attempt to revive Savarkar as a hero were as much a flop as the attempts of the earlier govts to marginalise Bose and Bhagat Singh.

southasian #244 You mention jalianwala bagh - the brits killed 480 indians at jallianwala bagh. The japanese killed 35,000,000 chinese during their period of occupation. Think about that then talk to me.

Like I said - desis (indians and pakistanis) have no sense of persepective. Cant see beyond your nose.

Re: # 246 I assume Japanese occupied China and Chinese were trying to resist with violent force. And that followed with violent repression. The kind of repression you are talking about was resorted to by the British around 1857. There were no violent uprisings of any consequence afterwards. If there was any it was crushed.

The point I want to make is simple. Indian style of resistance was civil and peaceful in character and did not lend itself to violent suppression easily. Of course, I don`t want to take anything away from the British and their sense of fair play. One must add that there was a distinct lack of outcry on Jalianwala massacre in Britain .

To sum up what I mean to say is this: Japanese were more brutal but it was the Chinese resistance that triggered Japanese brutality. In case of India a victorious INA would have been accorded a red carpet welcome. Of course British agents would have been severely dealt with. With eventual defeat of Japan and Germany, of course, an ideal scenario would have emerged: an Independent India with both Japanese and British nowhere near India. I am sure SC Bose had a plan of this nature up his sleave.

Pakis exhibit their love and affection for India >>

stuka:

you write ``Your perspective is based on hindisght.``

True. But that of other Asian leaders of the time (I named a number of them earlier on), it was not. They could read the writing on the wall, while Indian leaders (except Jinnah) could not.

you write ``1. Excluding Bose, no one in the Congress supported Japs. That is a fact. The Quit India Movement was launched THREE years after Britain enjoined India in ww2 and Congress patience to get a specific promise from the Brits ran thin.``

Not true. The Gandhi`s call for Satyagraha (pre-cursor to Quit India resolution) was in October 1940 and specifically designed (at least according to the first source I found on the internet, an Indian website) ``was designed to embarrass Britain`s war efforts by a mass upheaval in India `` Link. The draft Quit India resolution was circulated in April 1942 (and printed in the NYT, so brits were already aware of it) and formally issued later that year.

you write ``2. Jinnah`s reason to not join the Quit India movement had everything to do with trying to cut a deal with the Brits for the Muslim League and nothing to do with fighting Nazis and Japs. ``

That is what I said earlier on that annoyed so many Indians - that the Quit India movement (and Jinnah`s decision not to join it) ensured the creation of Pakistan. As I said, it would be only natural for the british to feel betrayed at the worst possible time (when they were fighting for survival against japs/nazis).

you write ``3. Even if you are to take the example of other Asian nations such as Burmese and Malays, they did fight the English an supported the Japanese. Things turned around after Japanese too commited atrocities, no doubt.``

You keep mentioning Malays and Burmese as being as dumb as the indian leaders - while ignoring the real players in the anti-colonial struggle (Mao Tse Tung, Chiang Kai Shek, Soekarno, Ho Chi Minh). In any case, the japanese mauling of the chinese population had been going on for 10 years (!!) before World War II started. So ``ignorance`` of the true nature of the japanese regime is no excuse.

Re: # 243 How good was human rights record of the British? On the flip side I can think of only Jalianwala massacre. I can only say that in my part of the country INA seems to have been mighty popular. People considered Hitler also a hero. This means the British were rather unpopular.

``I think RSS and Hindu nationalist love Bose because he went to Hitler and Nazis for help. We all know that RSS and VHP both love Nazis and Hitler. Birds of a feather``

Not really....Hitler would be more of a role model to anti-semetic jew haters like muslims. Hindus have no enemity for jews. Infact hindus , especially RSS type hindus have tremendous admiration for Israel and want India to be like Israel. Hitler would have been a role model for us if he killed muslims instead of jews.