Who Created Pakistan?

Re: # 83

Pakis like Hindvi would love to see riots and ``retaliations`` all over the country.....they believe that it is the deterrence in terms of sheer numbers that that saves the country from riots......this is exactly the Paki communal thinking...............

bong_dongs #112: Your observations are, on the whole, quite accurate............There are very few Pakistani women in Engineering. I can count the ones I have met on one hand.......There aren`t too many Pakistani women in the professional fields to begin with. As much as I would like to say otherwise, I think it is due to lack of ambition and laziness, for areas outside Pakistan, and for the well off Pakistani women. Within Pakistan, there are quite a few in medicine and teaching. I believe Pakistani medical colleges, now, have more girls than boys, in the student body. And some are starting to appear in other areas, also..........

On the whole, the only large group of Pakistani women who work are from the poor class. Literally the whole poor class women, start working from a young age in the fields of large landonwers and as domestic servants............They are the true working class women of Pakistan.........

I knew that these Paki elites would love to partake of Dawood`s dirty money by playing the same old protector-of-muslims game!!!

.............. they would like the IM-s to think that they are doing a great favour to them (and the Ummah) by sheltering and tolerating mafiaso like Dawood....................it the double game that they learnt from their American masters in CIA..........and now they partake the mafiaso`s riches by learning all his tricks ...............

And how the fck this rascal called Hindvi thinks that Dawood (or Osama) bombings innocents makes the world any better for muslims????
Who gave these mafiaso`s and terrorists the right to speak on behalf of any muslim???

Hindvi.....You are a rascal of first order!!!!!@$$

I knew where the support to Dawood comes from.............it comes from those ``elite`` Pakis like Hindvi......................they shelter snakes like Dawood and Osama in their backyards thinking that these snakes would not harm them.................it is their deep sense of insecurity that makes them do this..........

``#62 by hindvi on June 27, 2005 11:37pm PT
Mr Ballu

It is that mafiaso that has prevented another anti muslim pogrom in bombay after the 92-93 riots in which thousands of the indian muslims you weep for were wiped out.

The bomb blasts showed the other player in the local game that there would be repercussions to baring the machettes. They continued to talk of muslims with hatred after the blasts but this time the disdain was replaced with fear.......``

I knew that this argument would definitely be proferred by SOB like you !!! Do you know how many muslims were killed in the bomb blast........I would like to have your family member killed in that blast.rascals like you support mafiasos and terrorists in order to justifty your agendas......I spit on you!!!

India is one of the few countries where muslims live in a democracy, an open society. Where Farzana can rant and rave and no ``acency`` will pay her a midnight visit or take away her passport.

Muslim women have access to higher education, they have role models to look up to, a chance to appleal to secular courts. A chance to take the bus to work, maybe even drive a bajaj scooter some day.

These are the benefits of the ``pax-hinduca``, left to their devices Indian muslims would be a pale imitiation of Pakistanis.

correction...hinduism

hahahahha...this is not only funny but informative too...like gujju has suddenly found solace in hinsuism whereas he openly claims to be an aethist and indtends to have fun in the next hindu-muslim riots and caynne gets ugly when hp shows him a mirror and hp forgets the shia-sunni killings in pakistan and hindvi....who is this bloke?...looks like an anti ballukhan indian muslim... he is trying to justify indian muslim`s treason and treachery towards the horrible hindoos...carry on guys...it`s good entertainment... abay stick to the article.... angry icon....;)

Re: # 106

“Indian nationalism began to take shape during the British occupation, turned to communalism then it went dormant for 40 years and now in its reincarnation is being pushed into communalism again. ``

I would say all hindu nationalist are indian nationalist, but not all indian nationalist are hindu nationalist. well atleast that was the purpose of the treaty of westphalia.


`` How a debate on nationalism can come down to the question of allocation of seats in some obscure school? Is that the defining symbol of the whole debate about the nationalism? ``

No I wasn`t for nationalism argument. Just one of the issues concerning national parties.

``Reservations and quotas are bad, should not be there but they are just a little itsy bitsy provincial, administrative issues. That should not define the national debate. ``

yeah it should not discussed until it bites ones behind. I will give you an idea of what it is.

throughout north, west india reservations quotas comprise 35-40% for underprivileged. Out of them OBCs (Other Backward Castes) are quite competitive, not much far from general category. But SC/ST categories get in with very dismal performance. Obviously most of them fail to clear the exams the first yr. In south the reservations are even higher, some 50-60%. All these are for education/gov. jobs.
In a class of 60 students, 40% ~ 24 seats + mgt/defence . you are left with 30 seats.
Minority schools (religious/linguitic) have 50% reserved for their groups. hence it is a significant part of the society.
many uppercaste youth don`t get admissions even at higher grades whereas lower caste do get in, it creates a stir in early nineties.
Congress gov in Maharashtra in order to garner lower caste votes wanted to implement it in Private companies. Result: the companies threatened to move out of the state. and every one is waiting for its implementation at national level. i guess that would be an end to liberalisation policies.

``Quotas may be bad, but often quotas have been used to uplift a community. ``

let me ask you, in an emergency would you like to go a doctor with skills or just to one who happened to be from a racially/class-disadvantaged group.
Also, only a section of the disadvantaged groups keep on taking advantage of this system generation after generation whereas the remaining are still backward.


``There are many places in the world where special laws have been enacted to help a community. Now I am not fully familiar with this debate in India. Someone else can answer that in details but in the British India there were certain laws that applied to Joint Hindu family, have all those laws been abrogated in India? Still, why is that debate so big or so emotional? Why can’t people in a country disagree on a few things without making it an issue of life and death? Are Muslims criminals tried under different criminal laws? Or the Muslim criminal is also covered under the personal Laws, if not, then why is that a big deal as to what they wanna write in the Nikah naama or the talaaq nama? ``

it becomes a question of what secularism means. just another eg of how far a gov will bend its back to the demands of 14% population. Especially when the same community just 50 years back asked for a separate country. muslims tend to maintian a distance from the mainstream and then ask how come we are seen as outsiders? All these play quite well in the hands of nationalist parties and expose pseudo-secularist. Cant the muslims think about accomodation? As i asked earlier will the same muslims will demand similar laws in u.s. too.

Regarding the pakistani woman, I think womens educational status in a society tells a lot about a nations progress. i am talking about middleclass women coming over from asia for graduate studies. you will see more chinese women, then indian (predominantly hindus), havn`t seen any from pak/bd. just an observation.

#107

sure, as i said these are my experiences. If we add up everyone`s we may have the true picture.

Re # 104

At a university in Oregon when I was studying, there was a Pakistani woman doing MS
(probably PhD) in either Nuclear Engineering or Nuclear Physics. This was late 80`s
early 90`s.

Where I work, there is a Pakistani woman I know. She has been systems programmer
for 10 years that I know of (unfortuanately I heard she was let go by the company recently).

#102

Neti,
I am not going to debate Jews conditions in Europe, as it is irrelevant here though it would be beneficial to re-read the Jewish history or their dreams of next Hanukah in Jerusalem.

“India (and probably China) has survived several assaults and have more or less maintained their vigor.”

History does not suggest any such thing. Indian civilization survived but there were never any signs of vigor in it. It was a docile civilization and it survived because it never threatened anybody. (Now don’t get offended. We share this civilization even though some may have crooked thoughts about the ownership)

“You will see it at another Indo-Pak match.”
Some misplaced vigor there!

“Indian nationalism rose against British imperialism and has been around”

Indian nationalism began to take shape during the British occupation, turned to communalism then it went dormant for 40 years and now in its reincarnation is being pushed into communalism again.

“I assume you mean Congress and BJP. Congress`s consensus means 50% reservation for muslims in AMU, which even prominent muslims have denounced since it will devalue a degree from AMU.”

I was talking about the dominant trends. BJP or Congress are just political manifestations of the overall intellectual debate. How a debate on nationalism can come down to the question of allocation of seats in some obscure school? Is that the defining symbol of the whole debate about the nationalism?

Reservations and quotas are bad, should not be there but they are just a little itsy bitsy provincial, administrative issues. That should not define the national debate. Quotas may be bad, but often quotas have been used to uplift a community. The affirmative action or the anti discrimination measures in an advanced country like the US, have helped minorities attain their rightful place in the economic activity. I hope you know that all equal opportunity laws are against the White Caucasian male in the US.

Some time ago, I had discussion with someone here about the quotas. In Sindh, people that moved from India in 1947 opposed the quota as vigorously as you are opposing it. Remember these were the same guys who left India because of lack of opportunity there. The same guys in Sindh were opposing the same thing (quota) that they were asking in India. Nevertheless, the quota was established in all schools, colleges, and professional education. There were misuses and manipulations but eventually it eliminated the educational backwardness of a large community and created parity in employment.

“Consider this: BJP wants uniform civil code, one man one law (not hindu law), is it unfair? a muslim will go to a western country and obey the laws but in india wants a personal law”

There are many places in the world where special laws have been enacted to help a community. Now I am not fully familiar with this debate in India. Someone else can answer that in details but in the British India there were certain laws that applied to Joint Hindu family, have all those laws been abrogated in India? Still, why is that debate so big or so emotional? Why can’t people in a country disagree on a few things without making it an issue of life and death? Are Muslims criminals tried under different criminal laws? Or the Muslim criminal is also covered under the personal Laws, if not, then why is that a big deal as to what they wanna write in the Nikah naama or the talaaq nama?

The whole point that I made in my post #86 was that either you build nationalism on consensus or you build it on negativity. You seem to be confirming the domination of the forces of negativity in the Indian society. Why be negative when better results can be achieved by consensus?

“till now i have seen only 1 pakistani woman studying/working in u.s. (in 8 years),”

Now you are going to make ZahraJ very unhappy. She is the founding president of Pakistan women Engineers association in the US. Btw, my niece is a kickass construction Manager in San Diego.

PS. I fully agree that Pakistan has more problems than Indian society. That society has pretty much gone to dogs but I think I have been as critical of the negative forces in the Pakistani society if not more. Without the positive attitude, Pakistani society will not get out of its morass too.

//PPS. Long sermon!

Re: # 102
It was refreshing to read some reasoned and intelligent analysis. Please keep writing on the sociological underpinnings as they relate to the future development of the major players in South Asia.
PRK

#103

I have been recruiting for a large multinational on US campuses for a few years, my observations:

- there are quite a few Pakistani female undergrad students, but they prefer business, finance or fine arts majors. They seem to congregate in certain schools like University of Illinois at Urbana-Champain. I assume they must be pakistani rich kids.
- there are a few in MBA programs, here you find the real bright hardworking Pakistani girls.
- never found one in graduate engineering programs, not even in ``soft`` areas like engineering management.
- only pakistani female engineer I ever worked with was straight out of GIKI. Did`nt seem to enjoy working in the swamps of Louisiana :-), quit and married some rich dude in UK.

Of course like all generalizatons to be taken with a pinch of salt :-)

Re: # 102
( till now i have seen only 1 pakistani woman studying/working in u.s. (in 8 years), )
are you sure?. the ratio of pakistani females in uk universities is fairly high.

Re: # 86

``There is lots of truth to what you say but one thing you and many even very well educated Indians forget that minorities are always more conservative, inward looking and if they are in a perpetual conflict with the majority, will continue to look outside for support and symbols.
For example, Jews throughout the history in Europe looked inwards and dreamt of their symbols outside of Europe.``

European Jews were not inward looking. They progressed in their land of birth and didn`t blame the majorities for discrimination and ghettoisation, even though there were instances of anti-semitism well before Nazis cae to power. They excelled in various professions and I wonder how many even knew Hebrew. If there was no holocaust may be there would not have been Israel. Russian communist movementtconsisted of many Jewish comrades who denounced religion and believed in peoples revolution.

``History has lots of cruelty written in it. Many nations and people have suffered throughout the centuries. In fact, many civilizations lost out to brutalities. The current Indian Nationalism is built of rhetoric and not on sound values. ``

Of all of the civilisations in the world, India (and probably China) has survived several assaults and have more or less maintained their vigor. So how can you say that it is merely a rhetoric. Indian nationalism rose against British imperialism and has been around. You will see it at another Indo-Pak match.

``In fact, I should say that there are two clear trends in India. One group is attempting to lead India on practical and scientific grounds and the other group is shouting from the top of the lungs and blaming others for its rather slow walk to progress. Both groups are nationalist one wants to build consensus in the society and other feels that consensus would open playing field for the same group that it holds responsible for centuries of foreign rules and perhaps slavery.``

I assume you mean Congress and BJP. Congress`s consensus means 50% reservation for muslims in AMU, which even prominent muslims have denounced since it will devalue a degree from AMU.

Consider this: BJP wants uniform civil code, one man one law (not hindu law), is it unfair? a muslim will go to a western country and obey the laws but in india wants a personal law that too not applicable in all offences. Is this modern thinking?Is this consideration towards other communities? BJP wants to end Haj subsidies or any kind of religious subsidies, is it wrong to financial one particular religious group on tax payers money?

``Building consensus is not easy and in Pakistan where one faith dominates, people of different provinces still don’t see eye to eye on several issues. Despite the commonality of religion, other differences come into play. ``

the same is in case of india too. A tamil hindu has much in common with a tamil muslim than a U.P. thakur.

``In situations where communities have difficulty in getting along like the case in India, the role of state machinery becomes important and since in India, the majority community controls the state machinery, it has more responsibilities to create environments of, if not cooperation, at least restrained aloofness.``

the only communities that have difficulty getting along are the hindus and muslims.
in a country like india where the state cannot even keep roads clean , expecting them to think out of the box would truly be an achievement. The only way things will improve if the communities accommodate each other. As i previously said for majority of muslims Islam is there lifeblood, they will never compromise on it. Every now and then you will see muslims authors quoting quranic verses and justifying there actions. THe non-musim majority doesn`t care what Mohd did in 7th century arabia. If muslim masses think that they are as indian as other non-muslims, why don`t they come out and ask for ``one man one law``? so that that every man in india will have the same laws and punishment? They will never do that because they are answerable to only Allah.
take the eg of Babri masjid, let us assume that no mandir existed there, and that it was`nt Rams birthplace. But if the majority community has faith that their god was born there whats the problem to shift a majid. Its not that it was where mohd died or went to heaven. It was a freaking defunct masjid. Even in KSA, several of them were razed to build highways. THe place is to faithful hindus what Mecca/Median is to Muslims, or Jerusalem to Jews/Christian. would the muslims allow any church/temple somewhere in mecca/medina let alone on the kabba site? the point is muslims intransigence.

``Accusing the minority on all counts, would not create national cohesion and any attempt to make progress would be bogged down. The majority community in India has more responsibility just for its own country’s sake to create peaceful environment for all. ``

no one is blaming minority (muslims in particular) . No one has time for it. muslims should look at other minorities like the jains, sikhs, christians. muslims are lagging behind because of their own orthodoxy/narrow mindedness. it is seen even in Paris, london, netherlands, germany.
they will the last to send their daughters to school/college. they will have unmanageable families. till now i have seen only 1 pakistani woman studying/working in u.s. (in 8 years), when the question of family planning comes, the mullah thunders that it is against islam and all nonsense. I most of the mafias/gangs consists of muslims. you will blame the majority also for this too?