Who Created Pakistan?

Pakistan was Not made in the Name of Islam.Infact most of the Ulemas and Muslim Clergy were against it.MA Jinnah amny times denounced radicalism and he emphatic to say that Pakistan Will Not be a theoracritic country.Alas! Zia changed everything and Mullas were made powerful,though they never gained anything substantial in Elections.Think how we cn get Quid`s Pakistan other ineveitable result will be what is obvious.We still have time.

The very informative and indepth look about Partition of India can be found at

http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/025930.html

and

http://www.zackvision.com/weblog/2004/09/partition.html

and

for truth what we are teaching our kids at school can be found here.

http://www.india-seminar.com/2003/522/522%20krishna%20kumar.htm

Hi, gr8philosopher here.
I`m really quite young and hence, perhaps quite naive and foolish...but...
I really don`t see the point in even thinking about religions.
I mean...strip everything down and aren`t you left with just a human being?
Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, et al...how does it even matter?
It`s society that`s conditioned us, since birth, to classify human beings into these various categories. These religions...most of them...have sacred texts...which few really understand.
I don`t really think Islam talks about hating other human beings, whatever their beliefs might be. Likewise, I really doubt Hinduism preaches hatred for any soul who doesn`t believe in the Vedantist philosophy. However, any text can be interpreted, by certain unscrupulous elements in society, as per their beliefs. Is it really that difficult to begin to look at human beings as just plain human beings? Perhaps not at an administrative level...but at least at a personal one?
I was going through some of the interacts and I found certain comments that I couldn`t really understand. I, for one, am completely unable to understand how one can call oneself patriotic and then, verbally bash up a human being from another nation for doing what he or she felt was patriotic. I`m not criticising anyone at all over here; I have no right to.
All I`m trying to get across is this young student`s amazement at the lack of humanity today...and also at the world being created, for us to occupy. I guess it really is true that most of the majors in the world today, are basically hedonists by nature and don`t really care about this `next-generation` and what happens to it. Guess the attitude is `we`ll live our lives the way we want to, till we can...heck with those who come after us.`
Maybe these words of mine will be dismissed, as childish prattle by some kid who hasn`t learned enough about life yet, to understand `practicality`.
I suppose that`s true...what have I seen of life anyway?
Ah well, c`est la vie, eh?
So, in conclusion, all I can say about this glorious legacy left behind, for us kids is...
I suppose...
Thanks.

There are many instances which just happen. Neither Muslims nor Hindus wanted Partition. It was just forced upon them. Call it divine intervention, if you so wish.

There is no point in analysing the causes of Partition. It cannot be undone now or atleast in the near to medium future. The only thing to be seen is that how close the two peoples can come together. We should work in that direction. No One People-One Nation or Two People-Two Nation but One People-Two Nations. Politically separate but socially,culturally and economically together.

This is the only plausible future of Hindustan and Pakistan.

Ref JagdeeshAsshole #244

[Ranjit and Mike
You guys are chutias. Sanjay Gandhi`s solution seems best in dealing with people like you - you must be stopped from breeding at any cost!]

It is people like you who ought to be stopped from breeding at all costs!

As for Sanjay Gandhi, he learnt a little bit too late that despite his status as the Prime Minister`s son and despite all his high-placed cronies at least some laws would apply in his case, such as the Law of Gravity.

Re: 256 by tahmed32

[So you think chowk (with a membership that would fit into one room!!) is a global forum!!]


Regardless of what I think, it IS a global forum. I know Indians all over the US that regularly hit this site. I`m sure this is true of Indians living in other countries as well. I know a couple of Americans who visit this site sometimes as well. That DOES make it a ``Global Forum``. I know I started reading out of morbid fascination - how do these fanatic idiots REALLY think.

And by the way, not everyone who hits this site becomes a member.



[And that it is a forum for anti-Indian propaganda!! read the posts/articles from Pakistanis, and you will see that they have far more interesting things to talk about than gossip among one another about how bad hindus/Indians are (which unlike the gossip that had been going on on this forum among Indians about the bad muslims/Pakistans).]


There is a LOT of anti-Indian propaganda going on here. Whether that is the SOLE purpose of this site is irrelevant.

You know, before putting up arguments, try to think first. ALL your arguments are SO easily refuted, it`s not even funny.



[You are truly pathetic individuals, burning with hatred about supposed historical wrongs.]

The world thinks you Pakis/Muslims are a pathetic bunch. It`s funny how muslims in America now try pass themselves off as Indians. The other day I was talking to a Pakistani cellphone salesman. I asked him where he was from. He said - ``Oh, I`m from India, India-Pakistan, you know, it`s the same - I go to India all the time``. To the American customers, he passes himself off as an Indian.

VERY pathetic.



[Seeking attention from Pakistanis by coming to chowk,..]


Right. Seeking attention from Pakis and Bangladeshis. And from Somalians.



[...then making absurd claims like you have above of why you are here.]


Yeah. My claims are absurd. Because YOU say so.

#253 you write ``This same issue was raised before - why do I, for example, come to this forum if I dislike Muslims. I answered that the ONLY reason I come is because this is a global forum, and anti-Indian propaganda has done MUCH harm to the country over the years, and this must be neutralized somehow. ``

So you think chowk (with a membership that would fit into one room!!) is a global forum!! And that it is a forum for anti-Indian propaganda!! read the posts/articles from Pakistanis, and you will see that they have far more interesting things to talk about than gossip among one another about how bad hindus/Indians are (which unlike the gossip that had been going on on this forum among Indians about the bad muslims/Pakistans). You are truly pathetic individuals, burning with hatred about supposed historical wrongs. Seeking attention from Pakistanis by coming to chowk, then making absurd claims like you have above of why you are here.

#254 Take two of those green pills the vet ordered for you (works on monkeys, should work on you too).

Re: # 248
And you are an flaming idiot. Your statement is laughable at so many level, that it is not even worthy of a rebuttal. In fact, as I have said before, YOU are not worthy of any debate, discussion or argument. You should only be laughed at and kicked out of the way when you start getting annoying. Ha! Ha!

Re: #247 by tahmed32

[This provides a plausible explanation for the mystery why individuals who claim to hate muslims and Pakistan come to this website to begin with. Another plausible explanation is that exchanging insults and ridicule is the only form of human interaction they are capable of. Probably it is a mix of both, with the anonymity of the internet medium making it easy for them to engage in stupid insults and big talk. ]


You see, Southasian, this post by this tahmed32 idiot is a case in point.

It is not that they don`t know the answer. They PRETEND not to know. Because they know that lying is their ONLY way out.

This same issue was raised before - why do I, for example, come to this forum if I dislike Muslims.

I answered that the ONLY reason I come is because this is a global forum, and anti-Indian propaganda has done MUCH harm to the country over the years, and this must be neutralized somehow.

Dead silence from the other side.

After a few weeks, they are back harping on the same question again.

As if, this is the first time this issue is being raised.

The ``hatred`` card is the only card they can play.

Any time you find anything wrong with them, it`s not because you are right in your views - oh no! It is always because you are a bigot, pseudobigot etc, and you HATE them.

This is these fanatic idiots` only defense.

#250..abrahamis have been involved in an interncine battle about is abraham better than ibrahim..LOL.

Re: # 250 My contention is let invisibles be what they are: invisibles.

Ref southasian #246

[Coming to the issue of faith. It is not an issue to be put to a test of logic. It caters to the irrational part of human psyche.]

One can have his or her own Faith.

However, it is the Abrahamic faiths who are insistent that their Invisible Friend is better than anybody else`s Invisible Friend -- their Invisible Friend called Jehovah or Allah. At least the Jews are not going around publicly declaring their irrationality and actively trying to convert others.

The Hindus are at least saying that all Invisible Friends are okay. We may be irrational but not to the extreme that these queers are.

Re: # 247 Tahmed, that`s why I say its better left in one`s personal domain.

JagdeeshGodbole alias John Galt alias Rsaxena #244: I see that you are still fuming after a full year after being exposed by me for the fake that you are (seeking sympathy from Pakistanis about your mental depression on UP, then going on the front page and joining the rest of the Pakistan-obsessed Indian freaks in gossipping about how evil muslims and Pakistanis are).

You can change your nicks, but you cant change your pathetic personality.

southasia #246 I like the new term you have coined (``pseudobigots``, defined as ``their hatred is not real. They just feel rejected.`` This provides a plausible explanation for the mystery why individuals who claim to hate muslims and Pakistan come to this website to begin with. Another plausible explanation is that exchanging insults and ridicule is the only form of human interaction they are capable of. Probably it is a mix of both, with the anonymity of the internet medium making it easy for them to engage in stupid insults and big talk.

I basically agree with your views on religion, but think one needs to take a step beyond saying that religion has done more good than bad. That is (as I also noted in my previous post below) one needs to understand and separate the good from the bad. The good being the peace of mind that religion (any religion) brings, e.g., and the bad being many things (superstitions, exploitation of religion for politicial purposes, and so on).

Re: # 243 Ajeya, let`s suppose majority of Indian Muslims (i.e. Muslims living in the present territory of India in 1947) opposed partition. Would you still think about them the same way? I am not talking about Islam or Muslims at large. I am asking you this question because I have a personal hypothesis that the present generation and I am included tends to link the two issues. I have seen the biggest Muslim haters melt the moment there is a hint that India Pakistan relations are improving and who knows we might go the Germany way. (I don`t quite fancy the idea though). I call these guys pseudobigots because their hatered is not real. They just feel rejected. Its like a lover scorned. Its the child in all of us.

Coming to the issue of faith. It is not an issue to be put to a test of logic. It caters to the irrational part of human psyche. The area of darkness will continue to shrink as scientific knowlege grows. Yet as long as man continues to have a sense of powerlessness in the face of nature`s might there will always be need to cling to an all pervasive and all powerful entity. Religion, while including the centrality of this entity, got into other peripheral areas of human life. Unfortunately it has done more harm than good. One can not say this religion is better than that because none stands to the test of logic. Therefore it is best left to the personal realm. Now to hold the whole idea of nationhood hostage to something as unpredictable and obscure as religion, is like trusting a baby with a loaded gun. Same holds for people. To judge, classify and treat people on the basis of something as `silly` as religion is itself silly. Kashmiri militants are wrong if they want a separate country because they are muslims and so was Muslim league in 1947. When we give logic to prove that a particular religion or its followers are inferior (or have superiority complex), it amounts to proving these two right. They want you to do just that. This game is so divisive that the end is endless.

This is not specific to any of the dialogue that could have happened between anyone in this thread. But since behind the veneers of flimsy excuses of hurting a section of the population, devaluing long held beliefs of a community, keeping public order, no matter how unreasonable adherents of an ideology be it Islam or Communism or Hinduism or Falun Gong act, spirit of free enquiry and questioning is muffled, whether in India or in the US or in Pakistan or in France, pissed off people like me are forced to resort to this medium.

Firstly, people who constantly raise the bugle that their beliefs, ideology are being targeted and vilified need to understand that no reason exists for others to hold their dogmas high, higher than the topmost book in their loft. I say this for Islam, the Mormons, the Aum Shinrikyos, Hindus et al. To a nigga dark crow, its nigga dark chick is the cutest. Adherents of different ideologies, have different levels of arrogance, tolerance towards other people. Who can deny the fact that Buddhists were more peaceful than say the Muslims or Hindus throughout their history? Saying this in the public sphere invites wrath, know why? Because people are twisted. Accusations of harboring hatred are thrown around immediately.


Secondly, no religion is scientific. Many of their dogmas are ridiculous. Even the scientologists, the name scientology not withstanding, force new converts to undergo weird-ass rituals. The very concept of believing something without questioning is an anathema for rationalists. Well, they are adherents of rationalism. Why does not the secularism in India treat them with EQUAL respect ? Pisses me off. A Muslim cleric delivering a fiery speech from the pulpits of a mosque conveys the same information as does the case of a dog biting a man. When a rationalist says something is terribly wrong with muslims, and to a lesser extent with Hindus, and to a very less extent with Buddhists it creates ripples throughout the world, because, again, people are twisted and either seriously believe nothing is wrong with these religions, or know but choose to propagate the myth.

Thirdly, whats up with the number game? Why should the so-called minorities seek concessions in every issue? Why should they hit to the streets to kick Govt. of India into submission in Shah Bano`s case ? Why should they hit to the streets when a state run bus honks in the traffic, and their prayers are ``disturbed`` ? Why should they stone it and set it to fire? Why do I not see Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Jews, Parsis, Mizos do the same? Raising these questions do not make me a hate-filled Hindu. The so-called secular parties of India created an anal situation in India. Indian secularism is all about timing and riding the political wave, and pandering to every religious section, more in the case of some, and less in the case of others. For instance, we see Congress walas, typically throw large number of Iftar parties, lesser number of Diwali celebrations, much lesser number of Mahavir Janma Divas celebrations, and far fewer if at all any number of Mizo celebrations. We all know why, they look for enough bang for the buck, and also take note the street power thats in each section. And, saying this does not make the pissed off me hate-filled. People who throw the charade of these utterances victimizing minorities, ridiculing minority faiths.... thanks, but no thanks. Everyone is a minority.

These are specific to the proselityzing type Muslims on Chowk. If you find it ridiculing your religion/beliefs, treat me like a local Mullah would treat a wannabe-convert. He feigns an unlimited degree of approachability, desperately tries to show that everything in this world is as per the logic in The Quran. Feign that degree of tenderness, warmth, approachability if you care to answer the following:

1. Is it not true that Muslims throughout (generalizing, because it is the case, no victimizing here) the world in general are very proud and sincerely believe in the completeness of their beliefs, and the incompleteness in other beliefs? This belief without any sincere efforts at understanding other beliefs, isn`t it a cause for their seemingly arrogant aloofness? (been classmates with Nigerian Muslims, Indian Muslims, interacted with Bangladeshi Muslims, seen the case first-hand in Indonesia too.... heard about people being quite religious in Pakistan too ;) ) Does asking this question make you feel victimized or threatened?

2. Why do even seemingly prosperous Muslims want to remain distinct, segregated and yet complain of discrimination ? People who say I am overly generalizing....sigghhh, I have no answer to you.

3. The Quran says many things. But if some of those things cause bad blood with your Kafir neighbours, even for what seem to be at no fault of the Kafirs, what takes precedence? Junking those things, or letting the blood get fouler and fouler? For instance, I and a large number of Hindus, find Manu Dharma (contains not so nice things on how to treat women) BS. And we, trashed it. Does this question make you feel victimized?

4. The tail on a Brahmin`s head makes me laugh, and I laugh without getting beaten up or killed. But, I wouldn`t dare do something similar to a Muslim, for my own safety. Why do Muslims get worked up so easily? Asking this, am I victimizing you?

5. Why do Muslims think they are a minority? The Ongis in Andaman are several orders of mangnitude less in number. And now, it is generally true that Muslims live in distinct quarters of a district, and Hindus are a minority in those quarters. And they live in dread, especially during riots.

6. Why did Muslims (again, generalizing this because, it is true, ``secular types``, keep your BS to yourself. I don`t believe in God, and you cannot be more secular than I am) think that the Islamic rule in India was perfectly fine, good for both Hindus and Muslims but dreaded a possible democratic government led by mostly Hindus but also by many Muslims? Why is it that their representation in equal numbers required? Are the Ongis being represented in equal numbers? Are the Hindus in Pakistan being represented in equal numbers?

Just felt like disgorging the venom out on Chowk here...
Take Care

Ranjit and Mike
You guys are chutias. Sanjay Gandhi`s solution seems best in dealing with people like you - you must be stopped from breeding at any cost!

Ajeya and antihypochrist,
Please ignore tahmad, he is batshit crazy. Please continue your debate with Jang and Bongdong.

Jang, Bongdong and Sridhar and other Indians,
This article has seen some excellent debate. Please continue in the same spirit and ignore the idiots.

Re: #242 by southasian

[I think we should not target Indian Muslims. They are us.]

This is the problem with this world. People try to confuse the issues. If there is no substance to dispute an argument, they go straight to the motive issue.

Tahmed32 is a case in point.

When people like him have no argument to counter yours, they typically come up with one of the following:

1) Oh, you HATE muslims.
2) WHY do you hate Muslims?
3) You hate minorities.
4) You hate minority religions.
5) It’s VERY bad taste to hate minority religions.

and so on….


I am not targeting anybody. I am stating facts as I see them.

If you think I am wrong, tell me how.

I’ll discuss it with you civilly, if you are civil with me.

Re: # 240 Ajeya you are doing exceptionally well in that Advani in Karachi article thread. I think we should not target Indian Muslims. They are us.

where is HP when you need him :(

Re: #239 by Mike

[Ajeya take it easy boss. Arjun is a maha-Indian patriot. Leave him alone.]

In that case, he should take it easy on the personal attacks.

If you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Ajeya take it easy boss. Arjun is a maha-Indian patriot. Leave him alone.

Re: #236 by arjun_m

[Yes..please..focus on making more hindu babies..]

Ah...hah!

I see.

So you ARE a closet-cutloo.

My apologies.

Keep breeding like rabbits.

Make more Muslim babies. So that you can democratically overrun everybody else.

As Arafat once said, his strongest weapon is the ``womb of the Arab woman``.

What a strategy!

Re: # 234 Personally I don`t mind more Shahrukhs, Aamirs, Zeenat Amans, APJ Abdul Kalams, Shabana Azmis .... and fewer Modis, Tagadias and ..... Point is its quality not quantity that matters.

#235 by Ajeya on July 4, 2005 10:20am PT


Maybe it’s time to quit this forum.


Yes..please..focus on making more hindu babies..

Re: #234 by arjun_m

[My point: Percentage, or ratio-wise, Hindus’ numbers are DECREASING,

So you`ve from the hindus aren`t procreating enough while muslims multiply like rabbits rabbits school of thought?

Wonder how many muslims babies were created while you were jerking around on the internet...?]


What’s your problem? Not enough to do? Trolling the internet for a fight?

This site seems to be infested with idiots and fanatics. Just a small handful of rational people.

Maybe it’s time to quit this forum.

#232 by Ajeya on July 3, 2005 11:41pm PT


My point: Percentage, or ratio-wise, Hindus’ numbers are DECREASING,


So you`ve from the hindus aren`t procreating enough while muslims multiply like rabbits rabbits school of thought?

Wonder how many muslims babies were created while you were jerking around on the internet...?

antihypochrist #219

you write ``It is true that early Indian socialist politicians threw their weight around in the comity of Asian and African leaders talking for the entire South Asia.``

First part is true, but meaningless - this was the so-called ``non-aligned`` movement, which proved to be nothing more than hot air, and soon disappeared like hot air as well: The supposed partners China and India were fighting one another a few years after the Bandung Conference (the high point of this movement), and the ``movement`` was soon dead.

Second part is not true anyway: Do you seriously think that anyone anywhere thinks that India has ever spoken for Pakistan (or even Bangladesh or Sri Lanka) on world forums?? T

you write ``Aah, this sweet intoxicating youthful hubris we have here, may it drive our nation down the fast lane. `` whatever. What you see as ``sweet intoxicating youthful hubris`` on chowk is more accurately called ``smelly delusional petty-minded crowing``. :-)

I join you however in your desire to see India ont he ``fast lane`` to economic progress for the future though - since that is good for Pakistan (and therefore for the tends of millions of Pakistanis living in miserable conditions), and also because it is good for the hundreds of millions of indians living in miserable conditions - the reality that is carefully avoided by those ``intoxicated`` by what you consider to be ``youthful hubris``.

As for Jinnah and the 2-nation theory: You missed the point. The 2-nation theory was merely an argument used for purposes of getting a separate nation. And on that question there is no doubt - there has never been any serious question in Pakistan on the goal that Jinnah achieved, namely the formation of Pakistan itself. ylh (the ``lawyer`` you mention) admires Jinnah for his secular view points and for his strength of character - and ylh is not alone by any means in the high respect he accords to Jinnah. I too, for example, agree fully with ylh on this issue.

On religion: I think you are confusing things here. It is not enough to say that ``There is good and bad in every religion. `` You have to take a step forward and identify what is good and what is bad. I have been doing this for years on chowk - by saying that what is good is basically positive values that every religion promotes and the philosophical meaning it brings into our lives. And what is bad is the conversion of religion into primitive superstitions (which about both among muslims and hindus), as well as the exploitation of people`s religious feelings for personal gain (in the form of political power, wealth etc.) as is true both for India and in Pakistan.

Anyway, I appreciate the civilized manner in which you have written this post. And wish you all success in whatever you do. Just try not to slip into this ``youthful hubris`` - since hubris is simply a gentle word for arrogance, and arrogance is a sign of insecurity and weakness. Not strength.

Re: #231 by arjun_m

[There`s lies, there`s damn lies, and then there`s statistics.

and then there`s cliches....

why don`t you focus on his main point....hindus in India aren`t a persecuted bunch...their numbers aren`t shirinking any....]


You don’t like cliches? Now if only I’d known!

I did, actually focus EXCLUSIVELY on his main point.

Maybe the logic was lost on you.

His point: Hindus are doing just fine, because their numbers are increasing.

My point: Percentage, or ratio-wise, Hindus’ numbers are DECREASING, and the ratio is what ultimately matters. And that increases the probability of more trouble in the future from the adherents of the only TRULY peaceful religion in the world – the muslims.

Can I go now?

#225 by Ajeya on July 3, 2005 8:02am PT


There`s lies, there`s damn lies, and then there`s statistics.


and then there`s cliches....

why don`t you focus on his main point....hindus in India aren`t a persecuted bunch...their numbers aren`t shirinking any....

re: Is Pakistan a failed state
Depends of what your definition of a failed state is. Some States trudge along for a little while even though nothing in that state ever functions or everything is under a centralized authority. Pak belongs to the second category. The way Army controls everything in Pak is reminiscent of the country of Prussia that existed close to 200 years before fading away (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia).
Will Pak survive the present challenge to its nationhood? One has to wait and see.
Sridhar

re: IM`s ``ghetto mentality``
Why do IMs insist upon a seperate Civil law (shariat) to govern them? This is a test of their integration with the rest of the society. The more they insist on a seperate set of laws, the more they alienate themselves. Can any enlightened IM here tell me why do these archaic laws still exist, both in India and Pak for the muslims?
http://www.satribune.com/archives/200507/P1_arun.htm
(Talking to the South Asia Tribune, the Executive President of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) Ashok Singhal said: “Islam is a very complex religion, and it has no clear vision on the issues of divorce, marriage, rape and other crimes. There are different schools of thoughts, different Maulvis, different followers, different principles in Shariat that make the position of Muslim women very weak.”

“Only the Uniform Civil Code can protect the rights of Muslim women. In such cases like the Imrana case, a victim has to produce four witnesses in front of whom the crime was committed. You tell me if four witnesses watched the woman being raped then why they did not try to save her? It is so ridiculous,” he added.)
Ashok Singhal may be a hardliner but he has a point.
Sridhar

#217
``The fact is that Pakistan is here to stay, regardless of the arguments. Get used to it. ``
Was that not said a generation ago in `47, only to be proven wrong in `71? By all objective analysis, the prognosis of the Pakistani state is still a cause of concern in many world capitals.

Re: #226 by jang


[you seem to be giving statistics importance so, please be informed that statistics is complex.]


Yes, but some things are still very simple.

For example, this is an INDISPUTABLE fact:

``The percentage of Hindus has DECREASED in the Indian Subcontinent (India + Pakistan + Bangladesh)``

This is not a debatable fact, or a complex fact. It is simple math.

#225
you seem to be giving statistics importance so, please be informed that statistics is complex.

but is it not nice that hindus have increased while the christians in the western world have decreased in numbers? hallelujah!

Re: #224 by jang

[Seems to me that what needs adressing is ``hindu`` insecurity. I think India has done OK, it had 60% hindus in 1946 and 85% now.]


There`s lies, there`s damn lies, and then there`s statistics.

In 1946, in UNDIVIDED India, Hindus were 60%.

In 2005, if you take India, Pakistan and Bangladesh as a whole, Hindus are FAR LESS THAN 60%.


After hundreds of years of Muslim oppression, and Jehadis trying to break the country apart, and Hindus being kicked out of their homeland in Kashmir, Hindus do have a reason for ``insecurity``.

What needs addressing is the damn Jehadis.


[In addition, the number of Hindus has doubled, so much so that almost 1 in 7 persons on this earth is a hindu!]


Yes, but the percentage of MUSLIMS as a share of the global population has increased MUCH MORE in comparison.




[The cannon-fodder in Indian Army continues to be from good-old UP and Rajasthan..large number of them muslims...]

It IS a volunteer army.

Ranjit,

``Hindus have already met their final solution in Pakistan, where they have been reduced to 1% of population. Hindus are already meeting their final solution in Bangladesh, where they are slowly but surely squeezing the minorities. Even in our good old secular India, hindus have met their final solution in the Kashmir valley. ``

Seems to me that what needs adressing is ``hindu`` insecurity. I think India has done OK, it had 60% hindus in 1946 and 85% now. In addition, the number of Hindus has doubled, so much so that almost 1 in 7 persons on this earth is a hindu! The cannon-fodder in Indian Army continues to be from good-old UP and Rajasthan..large number of them muslims, and they fight in kashmir for a paycheck and chance to make money in drugs and arms rackets, go figure. Dawwod Ibrahim would be a nobody without Sharad white-dhoti Pawar and Bal saffron-lungi Thackrey.

So hindus should continue to become strong, and non-corrupt and a ``beacon`` to the rest of the world, an maybe in future, you can use Malaysians as mercenaries in Grenadiers.

So take it easy on the final solution in the interim and save rest of us some trouble.

Let me say how I feel. Dejected. What to do with my pride in Indianness that includes followers of all religions. If you techies are the engines of my country`s growth, we are surely on the road to hell. SHAME on YOU! Do not head towards India. We are better off without your money and your ideas.

Re: # 221
Today, after few days, I came to see how this article was doing in subsequent discourse, and I happened to see your responses. I tried to read two different ones…but each time could not go beyond few lines; just because of your tone and hidden hatred...it smells real bad… I would have welcomed you to come and visit me either in Washington or in Sydney, but reading your thoughts make me sick…sorry I don’t have time to respond to your stuff any more for you don’t deserve it – not with this attitude of yours.

``you have been raised in a primitive culture where it is considered ``cool`` to ridicule minority religions.``

Huh ? Does this guy really live in US ?If so ..is he hiding himself in some spider hole , for we all know what amrikans think of islam and muslims post 9-11.....so going by the idiot`s logic there is no culture more primitive than the amrikan one...

And lets not use euphemisms like `minority religion` for islam...its a religion founded b y the depraved and followed by the depraved.

Re: #214 by tahmed32

[Ajeya: You can call the prophet muhammed whatever you like, all day long. You are merely illustrating my point that you have been raised in a primitive culture where it is considered ``cool`` to ridicule minority religions.]


Three points:

1) This is a global forum. And I live in America. Islam is less of a minority religion here in America than Hinduism.

2) Ridiculing a minority religion is far better than what is prescribed for followers of other religions in the Quran.

3) Putting other religions down is okay if you follow the Quran. But followers of other religions must not do the same.

Low-down blood-thirsty fanatic pedophile-following hypocrites!

Tahmad Sir,

It is true that early Indian socialist politicians threw their weight around in the comity of Asian and African leaders talking for the entire South Asia. It is true yours and other South Asian nations mal-adorn our peripheries. We now realized that talking for the whole of South-Asia actually hurts us. So, we stopped dreaming about undoing Pakistan. Why on the earth would we want you? Let me tell you something, we have everything you got, and much more. So, there is nothing such as ``getting used to it``, we are quite happy you are there, and we are here. :) But still, somebody is definitely screwed up to have thought that the whole of Hindu populace can be communal and by implication cannot treat Muslims with equality. Why is it that Hindus cannot believe that Muslims can be communal too?


Aah, this sweet intoxicating youthful hubris we have here, may it drive our nation down the fast lane. Did your engineers fix the submarine internet link, yet? I keep backing up my data every month on DVDs. PTCL engineers, what losers, they didn`t think of a second link !

You got nothing substantial other than picking on my nick, says something about you...
So, is Jang, for instance a war-mongerer going by your logic ?

Oh, so, two-nation theory is no longer a big deal in your country anymore? Are, you sure? Why are some Pakistani lawyers on Chowk so much in love with Jinnah and in his beliefs still, then?

Religious chauvinism amongst Hindu Indians? Sir, its not what you think it is. We are Jews of the Orient. Talk back, or get talked into actually believing that Islam is THE answer. We just have this piece of real estate, and a small one in Bali. I scorn vilefully at the International Krishnas too here, when they say Krishna is THE answer. Its a different question though as to how many Hindus actually seriously believe so.

Say with me.. ``All religions are equal, and teach both good and bad things. There is good and bad in every religion. Religions of the world carry teachings which can only be complementary and not complete``, thats because Hinduism does not make much sense, say, in Greenland. Likewise, it does not make an Adi Kusumo Bambang Irfan to blow up people on Bali.

Re: #214 by tahmed32

[Ajeya: You can call the prophet muhammed whatever you like, all day long. You are merely illustrating my point that you have been raised in a primitive culture where it is considered ``cool`` to ridicule minority religions.]


Nazism is a minority belief as well. As are fascism, communism etc. I do consider it cool to ridicule all of these too.

#216 ``Since this article is originally about the creation of Pakistan, let me stick to it.``

Good move - dont acknowledge anything when the obvious is presented to you. Just ignore it and change the topic.

So, lets see what you have to say about the new topic:

you write ``The whole premise that Hindus and Muslims cannot stay together, is a lame ass one. ``

Of course there is no rational to the 2-nation theory that you indians keep harping on. So what? Nation-states are the result of historical events. Nothing to do with logic. The fact is that Pakistan is here to stay, regardless of the arguments. Get used to it.

As for looking to the future - dont flatter yourself. Religious chauvnism has no place in the future for civilized nations, and your very nick and your comments reek of religious chauvism. So, get used to that.

Listen Ye` ll,

Tahmad has got an undeniable point, Hindus like me, are after ridiculing and persecuting non-Hindus. So, I ridiculed Christianity, by....guess what - creating my nick, doesn`t matter that I did not talk a single word about Christians or their religion.

Tahmed sir, keep your buried in the sand. 10-15 more years, you people will lose out big time in the race, if you do not fix your priorities straight. You already have lost. Rationalism is bound to win, anyday. And, talking about our primitive culture, hmm..... you are right, inane subjects like Logic, Astrology, Economics, Politicking, Mathematics, were what we worked on, when we should have worked on sea-bound travel, making conquests, making JanBaaz unproductive lads out of young men. We are cheerful and hopeful about our future, raising young scientists, creating scientific fervor throughout the country, and moving up the value chain in trade.... unlike some nations victimizing rape victims - witholding passports and not letting them visit other countries.

Sir, your frequent ``ha ha!`` throws up a question, how old are you? I am 29, and perhaps am acting more matured than I should be with you, am I?

Since this article is originally about the creation of Pakistan, let me stick to it. The whole premise that Hindus and Muslims cannot stay together, is a lame ass one. Well, not so, if the man had thought and went about achieving it. What if the Sindhi Hindus want a Sindhi Hindu nation for themselves? Would you ? If you wouldn`t, go back to the first principles behind creating your nation, some infinite loop, isn`t it. You are in a perpetual curse. How can you reconcile it to yourselves, Tahmad? Good luck for the next century in your grand national efforts at trying to reconcile.

P.S In retrospect, we are thankful to the dead old man for saving us from the Baluchistan sui gas problems, Mukhtaran Mai issue, Daniel Pearl attrocity, your textbooks, ignominy of having to get finger-printed, losing out in technology, education, IT and software to your former subjects, . We are looking into the future, on par with other civilized nations. I just want other Indians to give it right, without taking it lying low when chauvinists on either side of the border talk BS. Tahmad, you call it ridiculing and hatred. We energetic productive go-getter Bangaloreans call it rationality and forthrightness with a damn-if-i-care for political correctness attitude.

#212 So, having no response to the undeniable point that you consider it ``cool`` to adopt a name that ridicules the sacred figure of a minority religion in India (christianity in this case), you resort to that other characteristic that seems unique to Indian men like you - i.e. namecalling. ha! ha!

Anyway, I have some time to kill, so let me see what gems you are now presenting:

1. Thats right - those who kill innocent people (suicide bombers) are rightly condemned. Something for you to learn from muslims, as a step out of the primitive culture you have been raised in.

2. It is true that there are muslim chauvinists who look down upon other religions. So all you are saying is that you are ambition is to be like thim.

3. So you want to be applauded for calling the labelling muslims in general as some kind of religious nuts? Like I said, any other country in the world and individuals like you would be considered insane. Among hindu men on chowk at least, you seem to be normal.

Ajeya: You can call the prophet muhammed whatever you like, all day long. You are merely illustrating my point that you have been raised in a primitive culture where it is considered ``cool`` to ridicule minority religions.

Re: #205 by tahmed32


You can call my writing ``gibberish`` all day long.

But the undeniable fact is that you ARE a follower of a pedophile, and that`s the end of it.

Hey TahMAD32,

There you go bro, you caved in already. So, when a non-muslim talks sense which we ought had long back, you call it BS? I will tell you what pure-unadulterated BS is:

1. Calling suicide bombers not `real muslims` when the suicide bombers themselves take pride in being pure muslims.

2. Saying that Islam is the most complete religion, and other religions are incomplete in many aspects. Forgot to say, this Bangladeshi dude said, Hinduism in its Vedic origins was pure, but somehow the message got corrupted in the course of tiem as opposed to Islam which jealously guarded its original message in its pristine form. What are people like him doing...giving non-muslims and their religions atleast some credit or what now?

3. Saying only an insignificant section of the muslim population is fundamentalist.

I do not see muslims anywhere honestly learning other cultures, honestly trying to bridge the gap between non-muslims and muslims. Each time I say something is not how it needs to be done to a muslim, the first reaction is one of a defensive kind, and he/she goes ``hamare usme aisa nahin hota``. The world is better if people like these drop the current levels of importance they attach to whatever that ``usme`` is. Do you get it now, T sir? Forget illiterate Muslims, who have had a very little positive interaction with other cultures. Whats with even the educated Muslims like this Bangla dude, and Farzana?? Why does that delusion run in their system still, that sense of self-righteousness, and unassailable logic. Hmm...itching to meet some more of your ilk, Sir

Re:jang#208

Hindus have already met their final solution in Pakistan, where they have been reduced to 1% of population. Hindus are already meeting their final solution in Bangladesh, where they are slowly but surely squeezing the minorities. Even in our good old secular India, hindus have met their final solution in the Kashmir valley.

But of course, we hindus must always remain secular. It was ordained by the Lord that no matter how much abuse is heaped on us, we will champion secularism till our last breath. We must always champion human values and be ``above`` them, when they feel no such compulsion. I will give you a test - Give any Pakistani a gun and a chance to kill 10 Indians. Every Pakistani will take it up, whether it is Musharraf or Shaukat Aziz or Benazir. Give any Indian a gun and a chance to kill 10 Pakistanis. Every Indian (hindu) will come up with an excuse as to how that would violate our values. This is the difference between them and us. They are willing to kill us, drive us out and take over our land. We are not willing to fight back. Hence they will win.

antihypochrist #209 I said that you chose a nick that ridicules the sacred figure of one minority community in India (christians), and that write insults about another minority community (muslims).

And you respond by saying you merely picked the nick because it ``sounded cool``. ha! ha! Of course it sounds cool to you to ridicule the sacred figure of a minority community.
you add that `` no other country stirs up controversies over icons, figures and Prophets``: in other words, you assume that in India there are no controversies over religous matters!! And this from thugs like Advani and Modi as national-level figures. Give me a break.

And btw, writing bs and big words and empty threats on chowk is not equivalent to playing ``hardball`` as you think. Dont flatter yourself. This is another piece of delusion that you have been taught in the culture you were raised in.

Deat Tahmed32 #187

Ohho, so you think I created my nick only to ridicule the Christ. Jesus effing Christ, I created it just because it sounded cool...originally thought I would call myself anti-hypocrite, but then thought why not make it antihypochrist. And dude, no other country stirs up controversies over icons, figures and Prophets. So stop worrying about if my nick hurt Indian christians. And coming to my `hate-filled` posts, truth hurts, huh? Did I bad-mouth Islam like your mullahs do from the pulpits of the mosques? Read carefully dear, where did I bad-mouth Islam? This behaviour is what I wanted to bring out in you guys. Don`t tell me you got terribly hurt. It`s a lame excuse. You people talk and bad-mouth all other religions and cultures. Nothing wrong about it, just because you are still a `minority`? Muslims, like people from all other religions should NOT be from immune from criticism. Call spade a spade. When a non-muslim plays a hardball in lapping up what a muslim doles out in terms of tidbits about Islamic superiority, this is to be expected - that the non-muslim is hate-filled!!

gujju mutated into someone more virulant...unimaginable but true. he must have recently read about the final solution.

Mike,

The problem of isolating muslims is that they will never leave the country. Rather they will take up crime like Dawood or worse, join hands with ISI to commit terrorism all over. We had such a golden opportunity in 1947 to get rid of this problem once and for all. We could have systematically expelled every muslim man, woman and child out of India. But as usual, our hindu habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory (as exemplified by Prithvi Raj Chauhan with Ghauri), came up to the surface. We decided to be ``secular`` and let them live here.

We completely forgot that it was the North Indian muslims from UP/Bihar who wanted partition the most. The North Indian muslims are not an innocent minority. They were behind the entire Pakistan movement for 30 years where they did everything under the sun to destroy India and give us a holocaust where 6 million people died. We rewarded them for their act of treachery by creating a ``secular`` nation for them.

I say, we get rid of our soft indulgent attitude toward them as if they are an innocent community that wants to live in peace. We should throw an ultimatum that they need to fix the mess they created, as a price for letting them live in India. They must put pressure on Pakistan and Kashmir to completely stop all terrorism and give up any claims on Kashmir. No compromise or anything. If one Indian soldier dies in Kashmir, we will answer by killing 200 muslims starting with criminals in Indian jails. If they fail to resolve this matter, they have 2 choices - convert to hinduism or leave for Pakistan/Bangladesh. We will buy them tickets on the delhi/lahore bus.

Ranjit...I dont think reconversion is possible given the dogmatism of the muslims. A better solution would be denying them jobs and business oppportunities , asking the public not to have any transactions with them , making them leave the country of their own accord.

But that is the ideal scenario. Whats happening is the opposite with 5% of the seats in colleges and government jobs being reserved for them in Andhra Pradesh. This is only the latest in the long history of muslim appeasement in India - like using the money of the honest tax payer (obviously hindu) to finance the Haj trips........

Ajeya: #195/96. Now you are merely writing gibberish. Having been shown the cesspool in your mind, where you think it is OK to abuse minority religions. And having failed to provide a proper answer to the self-contradictory bs you wrote (writing about looking forward to going leaving India to go to America in one post, and saying you are an American citizen in another post).

But dont let me stop you and the rest of your delusional indian pals (ranjit and co). Hell, one geniuses might even be able to come up with a website made by Indians, so you dont have to come to chowk to exchange your gibberish with one another.

Re:mohar#174

``Count me out from that. Are you erstwhile Gujju-Bania?``

Mohar, this is the problem with us hindus. When it comes to muslims, we just do not get it. We love to complain about muslims and Pakistan, but when it comes to doing what it takes to solve the problem, we chicken out. This is the reason, we have lost for centuries and our country got partitioned. Muslims cannot change if they remain muslims, since they follow an expansionist ideology that does not accept coexistence with others.

We hindus have tried coexistence for 1000 years. What good did it do for us? Muslims have not changed one bit since the day Mohd. bin Qasim set foot on the subcontinent and converted the first hindu to Islam. They hate and resent us with the same intensity for the past 1000 years. They committed barbarism against us for centuries and subjected us to imperial rule. They partitioned the subcontinent with the mosty bloody holocaust. We were stupid not to kick them out at that time. For the past 60 years, Pakistan has done everything possible to harm us and destroy us. The only muslim majority state of Kashmir threw out all hindus and has been subjecting India to a relentless bloodbath. After all this, you still want to have ``co-existence``, using economic leverage. Dont you realize, Ghaznavi and Ghauri attacked us because of our economic strength? They did not want to immigrate to India and enjoy our economy. They plundered us and they will do it again, if we do not do anything.

Aggressive reconversion within our current borders can be done without violence by offering incentives. There were moves started in the last century and now we should go after it. And no, I am not gujju bania.

Re: # 178 ajeya

``I was watching a program on TV the other day, on the world’s tallest buildings. They were talking to the American architect who designed the world’s tallest building in Kuala Lumpur. The architect was saying that he had asked the Malayasian government about what the building should look like. The answer? Forget about Malay history, Malay tradition, thousands of years of Malay culture – forget everything. To his incredulity, the government said – it should look “Islamic”. In other words, influenced by Arab architecture. ``

reminds me of Naipaul`s books:
Among the Believers (1981)
Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples.


In destroying the sense of sacredness, Islamic fundamentalism is true to its type. But it does allow to one peoples, and only one peoples, the original peoples of the Prophet, their sacred places, pilgrimage and earth reverences; and these sacred Arab places have to be the sacred places of all the converted peoples.

Closely connected with this is another phenomenon. The converts have also to strip themselves of their past. Nothing is required of them but the purest faith, Islam, submission. Islam, Naipaul adds, ``is the most uncompromising kind of imperialism.``

Naipaul finds Islamic fundamentalism at work wherever he goes: in Iran, in Pakistan, in Indonesia, in Malaysia. It has its stages and intensities, but there is one minimum requirement: that the converts learn to lose regard for the land of their birth, reject their pagan neighbours and regard them along with women of inferior breed; that they hold their pre-Islamic past and ancestors in contempt. The one unalterable principle is tabligh: that they give up their old identity in every thing, in their beliefs, customs, names, dress. But as one advances in piety, others things are added. There is demand for the enforcement of the sharia, introduction of Muslim penal laws like amputation of limbs, public lashing and stoning; introduction of Muslim rules of marriage and divorce, introduction of obligatory fasts and prayers. All this is often irksome to the believers and in the modern world sometimes also not always practical. This often invites opposition. Hence the need for the fundamentalists to capture state power and enforce Islamic laws, the need for whipping vans to see that men observe rules and regulations of prayer and fasting.

Wherever Naipaul goes, he finds two features very prominent. One is that the converts are trying to erase their past; the second is that though they were once victims of an aggression, they are now all for the aggressor, for the Arabs. Whether in Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, their fundamental rage is against the past, against history, and all this accompanied with the ``impossible dream of the true faith growing out of a spiritual vacancy.``

Re:khamkhwa#198

``what caste are they gonna be put``

A good question. I would say Kshatriya or Rajputs, given their meat eating ways and fondness for the sword. North India had a tradition of absorbing new immigrants like Scythians and Central Asians as Rajputs. In fact hinduism is a highly assimilating religion which somehow could not succeed with the muslims. But now that we are back in political power over most of the subcontinent, it is time to set things right. So how about it - convert en masse to hinduism and become rajputs?

Re:rsidhar#182

You are forgetting that in 1947, IMs overwhelmingly supported Pakistan. At that time, even muslims in south India supported Pakistan, although much to our misfortune, they did not go there. It is naive to think that IMs have any affection for India. They are just lying low because their population went down right after partition. People like Ferzana, who is actually quite well off personally but is intensely communal, are the real face of IMs. Once their population grows back to the 20% level, god help us.

How many IMs have come out openly to support India over Kashmir? How many IMs have gone to Kashmir to win over the Kashmiris to our side? Every day 10-15 people die there like cattle, our brave soldiers facing bullets and bombs in the name of Islam, while the IMs enjoy hindu hospitality all over India. We hindus have become so shameless and impotent, that forget about taking revenge, we cannot even defend what we have left today.

On top of it, there are certain hindu communities, like the Bengalis, who are hell bent on committing collective suicide both in West Bengal and eventually in India. Thanks to their mindless communist support, the demographics of West Bengal is changing at an alarming rate as it lurches towards muslim majority. Even after the experience of partition and Bangladesh, the bengalis do not see the alarming situation developing when one day West Bengal becomes a muslim majority state and a secesssion movement starts over there.

#198, Khamkhwa {``ranjit wants indian muslims to be converted to hinduism:}

Not a bad idea, considering that Moose Limbs in Pakiland don`t accept so many other Moose Limbs anyway. Time for India to make another tactical move as in `71.

Re: # 198
What caste do Aishwarya Rai and Priyanka Chopra belong to? :)
Count me in. Maybe I still count as Kshatriya?

ranjit wants indian muslims to be converted to hinduism...that`s the only hope for india...question is...these converted muslims...what caste are they gonna be put...certainly not brahmin...so what is it ranji baby...;)

Pakistan was created so that Sadna and Mantolives could debate ad nauseum whether Moose Limbs are members of a religion, a nation, a language group, a race, or a Lodge.

Salim

Re: #194 by tahmed32

[Ajeya: So now you have changed your tune (``there are many good people amongst muslims``). ha! ha! ]

You are pretty irritating, I`ll give you that.

If you go back and look at my earlier posts you will find that I have made numerous statements like ``Yes, the GOOD muslims too...`` etc.

And as I have mentioned before, it is the loathsome 10% or so fringe of Muslims like yourself that are the most vocal, the most fanatic, and carry on the good work of your pedophile Prophet.

The other 90% fall in line with you because they of social indoctrination and pressure. And many feel that there is no alternative.

Re: #192 by tahmed32

[I see they dont teach you to write proper english in the culture you grew up in. Or is it that they teach you to lie right and left?? or both??

As for your irritation - would it help if I tossed you a paisa every time you wrote one of inadvertantly funny posts? ]

Your post is riddled with wrong english, grammer and usage. Fix that first.

It is low-class idiots like yourself with low self-respect who think that there is something to be gained by pretending to be an American citizen. I am an Indian first, and always will be.

Ajeya: So now you have changed your tune (``there are many good people amongst muslims``). ha! ha!

But then you follow it up with what has been ingrained in you by the culture you grew up in (``Even Islam could not take the humanity out of them.``). Thus revealing the same hatred for minority religions in India that no amount of education seems to be enough to take out of people like you.

You are in no position to judge muslims or anyone else. Clean up the cesspool in your own mind first, before talking of other people.

As I have said before, there are many good people amongst muslims. Even Islam could not take the humanity out of them. Unfortunately, most of them keep silent out of fear of social ostracization.

Here’s a case in point.

Muslims in independent India
Author: Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
Publication: The Observer
Date: January 2, 1999
At the request of certain educated Muslims and non-Muslims of Pune, I addressed a common gathering on November 6, 1991 on a topic of their choice, Muslims in Post-Independent India.
In preparation for this, I had to assess the Muslim condition from two different angles - the economic and the religious. After considerable research, I discovered that, quite contrary to common belief, the Muslims` lot has appreciably improved since partition in 1947.
In fact, any Muslim I picked out for assessment, or any Muslim settlement I made the subject of my research, was clearly in a better state than in the past.
It is true that Muslims are faced with certain problems and difficulties. But this should not be made not an issue, considering that it is hardly possible to have a completely
problem-free life.

A problem-free situation should not, therefore, be set up as the criterion by which to judge the condition of a group or community. God`s law for this world provides for difficulties and ease to exist side by side at all times. If this were not so, life`s struggle would cease altogether. And a society bereft of struggle would be longer spawn living individuals; it would instead become the graveyard of the intellect.

Given this state of affairs, the Muslim condition cannot be judged by utopian standards, it should be judged rather by a set of realistic criteria based on what is patently possible. I
attempted to form an independent opinion based on my own knowledge and findings. My search led me to conclusions quite the contrary of the story that is constantly repeated about the Muslims, as if it were an axiom.

First of all, I went into the conditions of those misters and maulvis who are held to be the representatives of the Muslims in modern times. I found that each one of them - most of them are known to me directly or indirectly - had considerably improved his position in life after 1947. All leaders without exception, whether secular or religious, had a better standard of living than they had enjoyed prior to Independence.

Then I assessed the position of my own, very large family. Again I found that all my relatives were in a far better state than hitherto. Then I looked at the Muslims in the various localities of my own hometown and in other cities too where I have stayed
for some time, and still frequently visit. My observation of the Muslims living there again revealed that almost everyone has improved his standard of living in the post-Independence era.

I spent several weeks investigating matters relating to this topic. Finally, I came to the conclusion that in the post-1947 era, Muslims have clearly made progress in this country. They are, today, in a far better state than before.

I visited a Muslim acquaintance of mine who was born in a village in a farmer`s family. After completing his education, he went on to become a gazetted officer. We often used to meet and each time he would complain that bias and prejudice in India left no
opportunity for Muslims to progress.

After an interval of three years, I went to see him at his home. He had previously lived in a flat, but was lodged in a spacious bungalow with guards and a host of servants. About ten acres of land with several different crops growing on it surrounded the
bungalow, adding to its magnificence. I learnt that over the past two years he had several promotions and was now a very highly placed officer. It was due to his high position that he had now been allotted this palatial bungalow.

There were frequent references - of course, with pride - to his bungalow, his post and so on. A few years prior to this, everytime we met, he would speak only of prejudice.
Now, he spoke only of his own greatness. It was this experience which made me understand the basic deficiency which has kept Muslims unaware of the actual state of affairs in the country. It is simply the inability to recognise and come to grips with
reality.

In life, there are good things. When an individual receives his share of the bad things - one of life`s realities: he begins to complain about being the victim of prejudice. But when he receives his share of the good things, he considers this the result of his own capability and endeavour, and thus falls a prey to pride.

He neither acknowledges the benefits he enjoys as a divine blessing, for which he should be grateful to God, nor does he look to his own shortcomings as the reason for his lack of
success. In this way, lie falls to see either the positive or the negative situation from the correct angle. Regular attempts are made to prove that Indian Muslims suffer deprivation by quoting statistics on their minimal recruitment to government services. An English monthly, brought out in Delhi by Muslims, publishes data in almost every issue, which gives the figure of two per cent as the Muslims share in public offices. It is held
that with this very low percentage of recruitment, Muslims are grossly under-represented in the country`s administration interms of the proportion they made up of the national population.

Arguments based on this data appear to be logically compelling, but the data itself leaves certain factors out of account, such as the backwardness of Muslims at the university level of education.

Another factor left unstressed by these statistics is the composition of the Muslim`s twelve per cent of the population. About half of this percentage is accounted for by women.
That means that about half of the potential work-force is permanently out of the picture, because Muslim traditions are against women going out to work in government offices. In this way, half of the Muslim population is automatically deleted from the list of recruits of government service. This leaves 10 percent, but out of that three per comprises of those who are insufficiently educated. The two per cent ratio of Muslims in government services, albeit extremely low, does not then appear totally injustifiable.

There are at least two definite reasons for this. One, that the issue of recruitment to the services is related to the government, and the wielders of power have always taken into
account their own political interests in the allotment of posts in the services. Even if these rulers are personally sincere, they adopt, due to national and international consideration, a
policy In regard to government service where the basis of decision-making is not simply prospering of a balance between the different communities making up the population, but the concessions are made to political imperatives. This is a state which exists in all societies and under all government systems.

For instance, the Sindhi Muslims of Pakistan complain that, in the central government services, the Punjabi Muslims are over-represented, while they themselves have fewer posts than their ratio would actually warrant. In Iraq, most of the high government posts are given to Shi`ites, so that Sunnis are mostly deprived of them. This same state of affairs exists in most Muslim countries in one way or another.

In India, too, such disparities exist at various levels. However, they do not exist only between Hindus and Muslims, but also between Hindus and Hindus.
For instance, in appointments to high government posts, members of the Brahmin caste far outstrip Hindus of other castes. Similarly, the English-educated class bags more government posts than the Hindi-educated class.

Muslims, for various reasons, also find themselves at a disadvantage, but this is a problem which is common to most groups and does not affect the Muslims alone.
Perhaps a more telling point is that government service relates more to the processes of administration than to economics, accounting as it does for a mere two per cent of the distribution of the country`s economic resources.

There is a much vaster field outside the administration in which people may earn a good living. Therefore, if a group is only marginally represented m government services, it does not necessarily follow that it must remain economically deprived.
There are innumerable fields open to those seeking employment, and it is quite possible that once they enter them, they may find them more lucrative than even the highest government posts.

Many historical examples can be cited in support of this viewpoint. One example in the recent past is the high level of prosperity attained by the Hindus in the erstwhile state of
Hyderabad, despite the marked preference shown to Muslims in the allocation of government posts.

This was because the Hindus had captured the fields of commerce and industry throughout the State.

By engaging themselves in commercial pursuits they gained a far better economic position than they could ever have expected from positions in the administration.
The economic position of Indian Muslims should be judged not just by their ratio in government services, but by their success (or failure) in the spheres of commerce, industry, science and education. Mere representation in government services is no
criterion by which to gauge their true economic worth.

Ajeya #191 I can only go by what you write. You said one thing earlier, that I quoted in #186 (``...I’ll be long gone to America by then``) and now you say you are a US citizen.

I see they dont teach you to write proper english in the culture you grew up in. Or is it that they teach you to lie right and left?? or both??

As for your irritation - would it help if I tossed you a paisa every time you wrote one of inadvertantly funny posts?

Re: #186 by tahmed32

[So your excuse for trying to migrate from India to the US is that you are afraid of those evil Indian muslims will take over India? Ha! ha! ]

I live in America, idiot. I have been a citizen here for many years. I am talking about AFTER I go BACK to India.

And could you stop your irritating ``Ha Ha`` routine?

Re: #182 by rsridhar

[they may be conservative, excessively religious and ``ghettoed`` themselves but they are not fundametalists. Not many realize this. ]

Actually, a small but significant percent of them ARE fundamentalists.

Maybe you haven`t met any of them.

re: mohar 11 # 159

Although the focus here has been on Muslims, the disease of viewing change as corruption is a widespread one. The long-standing Hindu disapproval of crossing the seas probably arose from similar fears. Many Muslims do add a potent brew of honor in the equation, turning corruption (a metaphor of undesired mixing and decay) into surrender (a metaphor of defeat in war). Surrender is always harder to countenance than corruption is.

We may overplay the role of vote-bank politics. In most cases, vote bank politics tend to exploit, and even sustain or strengthen, basic, durable social factors, not cause them. Politicians are just not that capable or that creative.

#177 anti

I think a lot of us have had that kind of experience, this ``superiority complex`` is part and parcel of Islam. We tend to be non-confrontational in such situations, but really we shouldnt, it only emboldens such thought. let me give you a recent example:

A friend of mine was having a party for his daughters 1 year birthday, a Pakistani collegue of his was also invited. While tuckng into the samosa`s this bugger declares that ordinarily he doesnt socially interact with non-muslims as it is forbidden in Islam. He was there only because his wife forced him as his daughter was friends with the other kids.

I think all we did was smile weakly and pass around the samosas, should have chucked the guys ass out of the house. I just felt sorry for his wife and kid.

now if only the more obnoxious pakistani interactors here can take this advice and get off this site :-)

antihypochrist: So your nick ridicules the sacred figure of one minority religion (christianity), while the posts you write are filled with hate for another minority religion in India (Islam).

And you are from the ``educated elite`` of India!! What else did they teach you in your ``hindu culture``?

Ajeya: you write `` only hope that when the day comes when they start taking over India from the inside, the FIRST people they get a hold of are the lefty bastards and their families. I’ll be long gone to America by then, because at least these Americans have some self-respect, and even though they are realizing about this evil late, they will put up a fight. ``

So your excuse for trying to migrate from India to the US is that you are afraid of those evil Indian muslims will take over India? Ha! ha!

Further to my last post, Hindu culture is all that the extremist sections of Pakistanis rejected long back, something that we present day Indians take pride in.

My dear Romair # 180,

OK, what is Hindu culture? Huh?? What is Islamic culture, then?? If Islam originated in Arabia, and if the Malays and the Pakis are adopting Islamic culture, what are they doing? Borrowing Arabic culture??