Who Created Pakistan?

It is totally unfair to accuse Muslims of being violent only against so-called infidels. Muslims are even more violent against each other - witness the Shia/Sunni clashes in Pakiland. Also, there are fatwas that encourage fanatic Sunni Wahabbis to blow themselves up in Shia mosques.

Now that there are insignificant numbers of Sikhs and Hindus in Pakiland and the Ahmedis have been hounded into a virtual kafiristan, it is the turn of the Shias and Ismailis (also Shias) to bear the brunt of Muslim violence.

There is no selfishness among Muslims when it comes to violence.

Salim

antihypochrist #177: ``He seemed well-educated and was very conversant with Hindu culture.``

Could you explain what Hindu culture is? I though all culture was related to geography, language, food, songs, history, physical features etc. Independent of religion............

For example, is the culture of Punjab, Hindu culture or Muslim culture or Sikh culture. Or is it Punjabi culture?

I forgot to add this...

Have you ever seen the ridiculous spectacle of a Chinese muslim wearing an arab headdress? THAT’S what I’m talking about.

ANYTHING to look “Islamic”. Anything.

Re: 177 by antihypochrist

I was watching a program on TV the other day, on the world’s tallest buildings. They were talking to the American architect who designed the world’s tallest building in Kuala Lumpur. The architect was saying that he had asked the Malayasian government about what the building should look like. The answer? Forget about Malay history, Malay tradition, thousands of years of Malay culture – forget everything. To his incredulity, the government said – it should look “Islamic”. In other words, influenced by Arab architecture.

Muslims will never change. This is because everywhere this evil religion goes, it enters into the local culture and sucks it dry from the inside out. The idiots start adding “ikht”, “ukht”, “ullah” to their names, sporting those beards, and start hating their “infidel” neighbors. It is a death-grip, and very few escape from within its clutches. I have known many Iranians in America over the years. They tell me that many of the young people in Iran are idealistic, and mostly against Islam. But sadly, even they will not survive its clutches.

The Bangladeshi guy was at least honest. The scary thing is, there are millions amongst us in India that are juuuuust waiting for the day when the population balance tips sliiiightly to their side. Millions of “sleepers”, just waiting for the day.

I only hope that when the day comes when they start taking over India from the inside, the FIRST people they get a hold of are the lefty bastards and their families. I’ll be long gone to America by then, because at least these Americans have some self-respect, and even though they are realizing about this evil late, they will put up a fight.

Unlike the emasculated lefty/pseudo-secularist bastards that have joined the Sonia-Laloo-Mulayam-Jyoti Basu-Karunanidhi secularist brigade. I hope they get them and their families too.

Re: # 178 ajeya

``I was watching a program on TV the other day, on the world’s tallest buildings. They were talking to the American architect who designed the world’s tallest building in Kuala Lumpur. The architect was saying that he had asked the Malayasian government about what the building should look like. The answer? Forget about Malay history, Malay tradition, thousands of years of Malay culture – forget everything. To his incredulity, the government said – it should look “Islamic”. In other words, influenced by Arab architecture. ``

reminds me of Naipaul`s books:
Among the Believers (1981)
Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples.


In destroying the sense of sacredness, Islamic fundamentalism is true to its type. But it does allow to one peoples, and only one peoples, the original peoples of the Prophet, their sacred places, pilgrimage and earth reverences; and these sacred Arab places have to be the sacred places of all the converted peoples.

Closely connected with this is another phenomenon. The converts have also to strip themselves of their past. Nothing is required of them but the purest faith, Islam, submission. Islam, Naipaul adds, ``is the most uncompromising kind of imperialism.``

Naipaul finds Islamic fundamentalism at work wherever he goes: in Iran, in Pakistan, in Indonesia, in Malaysia. It has its stages and intensities, but there is one minimum requirement: that the converts learn to lose regard for the land of their birth, reject their pagan neighbours and regard them along with women of inferior breed; that they hold their pre-Islamic past and ancestors in contempt. The one unalterable principle is tabligh: that they give up their old identity in every thing, in their beliefs, customs, names, dress. But as one advances in piety, others things are added. There is demand for the enforcement of the sharia, introduction of Muslim penal laws like amputation of limbs, public lashing and stoning; introduction of Muslim rules of marriage and divorce, introduction of obligatory fasts and prayers. All this is often irksome to the believers and in the modern world sometimes also not always practical. This often invites opposition. Hence the need for the fundamentalists to capture state power and enforce Islamic laws, the need for whipping vans to see that men observe rules and regulations of prayer and fasting.

Wherever Naipaul goes, he finds two features very prominent. One is that the converts are trying to erase their past; the second is that though they were once victims of an aggression, they are now all for the aggressor, for the Arabs. Whether in Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, their fundamental rage is against the past, against history, and all this accompanied with the ``impossible dream of the true faith growing out of a spiritual vacancy.``

I had to meet a Bangladeshi engineer in Bangalore recently. The guy came to learn about cellphone network deployment. He seemed well-educated and was very conversant with Hindu culture. Half a cup of coffee, and he started soliciting like a whore (``Had the Mughals been `real Muslims` and presented the `real face` of Islam, the whole of India would have been green without having to have a partition``)!! He started belching out his guts on the supposedly superior values Islam has got over all other cultures and religions. I did not let him sip the other half before giving him right, baaaaalls to my duty to be a good host. This dude actually had the balls to say that the essentially Hindu ethos of the land is just not right. I see many non-muslim Indians (non-muslim non-Indians too) just take it without questioning critically, when a muslim (Indian or Arab or Paki or Bong or whoever) makes absurd claims to superiority of his/her religion.

Political correctness takes precedence all over the world and no one puts finger on where the issue lies in - the Muslim community itself! How is it that 85% of the non-muslims can be wrong, and 15% muslims be right? Why should muslims claim that their religion is the best and good for all times? Have they researched other religions enough? Why is it that only non-muslims be over-accomodating? Why is it that muslims fail to see that an atheist, or a person from a polytheistic religion can be better than muslim? Why do Farzanas of the world talk of Advani, the Kanchi seer, Bush and Iraqi war, Kashmiri Pandits, and NOT talk about Imrana ? Why do the Farzanas not talk about the overwhelmingly conservative, aloofness of the muslim community? Muslims, realize that your culture, religion is given space everywhere. Stop crying foul. Islam is thriving in India, still. In recent times, I haven`t seen a single prominent muslim talk about the good in Hinduism, Christianity or Buddhism. The Taliban wing of India - AIMPLB members, gave a hands up to the Fatwas on Imrana`s case - that even though she had been terribly wronged, she needs to patch up with her father-in-law and break-up with her husband. Sick !! Politicians of India, you are all sick, not crying foul at such blatant injustice happening in my country !! Two members actually said, had India been an Islamic country the rapist father-in-law would have been stoned to death. Meet the fockers! They openly express their wont for India to be an Islamic country. No, I am happy it is not. Had it been, it would have been a hotbed of fundamentalism, mired in non-muslim subjugation. I snap it these slimy petty politicians that I run into in Bangalore, Marathwada and norther A.P, especially the communist and Congress walas.

Re:bongdongs and mohar11

It is delusional to think that we can solve hindu-muslim relations via the status quo. The US thought that way too until 9/11 happened. If you think India`s prosperity will bring muslims on board, dream on. The US with all its wealth cant attract muslims towards its side. What hope does India have about using economic leverage?

In fact, if the economic gap between India and Pakistan becomes very wide, I wouldnt be surprised if Pakistanis launch a unilateral nuclear strike just to bring us down, even it means a retaliation from us - the ultimate suicide attack. They wouldnt have much to lose and they will have the satisfaction of seeing hindus getting destroyed, perhaps even imagining that they are earning brownie points towards getting the houris.

The only solution is to keep our guard up and never compromise. Also, we must take aggressive steps to promote assimiliation as far as possible, even encourage mass reconversion via shuddhi movement. We were able to fight off buddhism long time back. It is time to think along those lines at least within the present borders.

Re: # 174
//....even encourage mass reconversion via shuddhi movement. ...//

Count me out from that. Are you erstwhile Gujju-Bania?

Re: # 175

...didn`t take long for the mask to come off...did it...

#170

so what is the solution, us turning into pale imitations of the Pakistanis?

Re:bongdongs#168

The caste/regional/language discrimination has decreased primarily because of economics and the willingness of hindus to make India work. That willingness came after the experience of centuries of imperial rule and the ease with which outsiders could conquer a squabbling subcontinent.

Hindu/muslim issues are, in my opinion, very different and totally unsolvable. Even if every hindu and musim were a millionaire with a high standard of living, they would still not be assimilated with each other. Jinnah was not exactly discriminated against and was a extremely wealthy man.

We hindus are in denial about this uncomfortable reality but the fact is that muslims never assimilate and they will never compromise. Never have, never will. The Algerian immigrants in France are fighting for wearing their headscarves. No different from muslims in India asking for their personal code. Even today with all the thaw in Indo-Pak relations, in spite of all the Pak children who got cured in Indian hospitals, Pakistanis are relentless about Kashmir. After centuries of barbarism and partitioning of the country, they have no sense of guilt. Their hunger to tear up India has still not satisfied and they will not give us Kashmir to keep, at least as a penance of all the past injustice against hindus. We have given Kashmir so much special consideration, if it was a hindu province in Pakistan, they would have driven out everyone or converted them. But at least they have clarity of intention. We do not have that with our wishy-washy nature as hindus.

Re: # 170 ranjit
//....Hindu/muslim issues are, in my opinion, very different and totally unsolvable...... Even if every hindu and musim were a millionaire with a high standard of living, they would still not be assimilated with each other. Jinnah was not exactly discriminated against and was a extremely wealthy man...//

Let`s not bring Jinnah in here - that will screw up the whole thing :)

But Hindu/muslim issues are very much ``solvable``. I think, it`s already happening ..... We just set up our new development center in Blore - and I interviewed a bunch of people - quite a few were muslims. They are totally committed, no hangups, completely at ease. We wanted to bring over couple of the guys over to our VA office - both are muslims. and guess what - one guy was rejected at the US visa office, we suspect, it was just for his name. The other guy passed - and he didn`t have your typical muslim name.

#166

Would you agree that other forms of discrimination in India caste/regional/language has decreased significantly in India, atleast in the large cities?
It`s just that I dont see the same extent of decline in Hindu/muslim issues.

``Secondly muslims are having problems with non-muslims all over the world whether it is Phillipines, Russia, Middle-east, Africa, USA, Europe, you name it``

There are some common themes which explain part of the issues, but the sweeping generalization you make is also invalid.

For instance problems of Algerian immigrants in France or Moroccans in Italy are quite different than problems of hindu/muslim relations in India.

Re: # 168 bong
//...Would you agree that other forms of discrimination in India caste/regional/language has decreased significantly in India, atleast in the large cities? ...It`s just that I dont see the same extent of decline in Hindu/muslim issues...//

Yep. That`s the point to ponder about. While various other faultlines are disappearing fast - how come the hindu-muslim equation stays as such? Why is that? That`s the right question to ask.

And the answer is given in part by Jang.

+++

Ranjit

And I agree with Bongdong - that the muslim ``issue`` in India is very differnt from what we see elsewhere. The problem is not religious per se - the problem derives from the peculiar socio-political situation that has been exisitng in India ....... IMs are orthodox, but they are not koran-thumpers. Barring a few ``hot`` areas in North india, you don`t see mosques and madreshas openly spewing jihad hatred or anti-US, anti-jew propaganda.

Actually - The muslim ``problem`` in India is the easiest to solve. It won`t be easy in western countries.

#165.. thanks.. i been called worst ;-)

Re: # 167
sorry, my mistake :(