Ban on Play Mr. Jinnah

Re: # 117

NO THE SMILEY DID NOT HELP. If I throw shit on you and say I was smiling, it doesn’t lessen your pain does it? If you were so quick to point out that I was also being judgmental then may I point out a part of your posting?

I quote, “Your actual posts are too ill-thought-out and cliche-ed to even attempt to discuss. Reeks of pre-pubescent knee-jerk idealism. (I am not saying this to be mean. I actually mean this sincerely.)”

---

> And you are NOT being judgmental? What you may find clichéd could be new for someone else. How can you judge what is “ill thought out” and “what is not”? Agreed that you maybe intellectually much much much advanced than us poor souls and We cannot please your Highly advanced intellectual post-pubescent cynicism and shoulder-jerking sneers at intellectually lesser endowed muggles.

But dear me when did you get the impression that this forum was a “well of intellect?” And it will quench your thirst for intellectual debate, where the interactors refer to each other with abuses?

---

> AS FOR ME – I wasn’t even trying to be intelligent, ALL I wanted was to give out the right information and the facts. Purely as a defense move because when I read the entire forum I found many postings which were turning the debate into

---

“either pak bashing” or “jinnah bashing” or “confirming the play Mr.Jinnah into a communal, religious potboiler.”

And that is exactly what we don’t want. Because Mr. Jinnah is in no way a communal play.

---

> AS FOR YOU – Did we ask you to attempt to discuss anything? We are extremely sorry for that. Seriously. We were looking for some pre-pubescent jerks like ourselves. What a waste that you wasted your time and energy writing so many postings on a topic which you knew was “too ill-thought-out and cliche-ed to even attempt to discuss.”

And you had to come out with statements as stated below.

---

We can understand control hi nahi hota, hai na?

Coming back to your postings --

---

> No. # 48 “And if any Indian playwright were to write and actually produce a play that criticizes Muslims about a million different legitimate issues, lefties would be out screaming bloody murder. And all muslims would be baying for blood. Riots would break out. Politicians heads would roll.
And types like Stuka would be in the front with their megaphones condemning the HORRIBLE government that ALLOWED such a thing to happen.
THIS IS WHY YOU NEED POLICE PERMISSION TO STAGE A PLAY IN INDIA.”

---

> No. #55 “Performing a play is different, because it can be deemed to have a greater potential to cause trouble. This is expressly because of your friends across the border, and inside the country.

It seems you have read the play Mr. Jinnah so well that you already know that it “criticizes Muslims” and if it is staged “Riots would break out. Politicians heads would roll.” You already know so much that youcould actually write a play review, with reading it or seeing it. Or even waiting for it to get published and released in book shops. Kudos to you.

---

If I was stating that some postings were immature then let me ask you how could you make such immature statements in the forum without knowing the content of the play??? It was only to shut up such comments from people like you that I had to start posting the “ill thought out” “clichéd” facts. What if I accuse you of spreading rumors and wrong information about the play? We realized that people like you are getting worked up on preconceived notions without proper facts and will mislead the other members.

In my opinion you just came to this forum for some paki bashing and for no intellectual reason. Anybody who calls himself intellectual cannot be so fascistic towards another community or religion. Then what is the point of your education if it doesn’t teach you to respect others?

---

> AS for performing arts -- How many performing arts can you name which have been the cause of riots? How many plays of Mr.Gaur have you seen? Have you seen “final Solutions”? “Bitter chocolate”?
Well name one out of 48 productions of ASMITA, which is related to real life issues and which has created communal riots? Name just one and I will accept what you say.


kuchh log hai bina jane bak bak karte hain aur fir mob bhi ikattha kar lete hain. Jis cheez ke bare me puri jankari na ho uske bare me apni rai dena bahut khatarnak sabit ho sakta hai. Aur hamare play ko aisa khatra ho, to ham bardasht nahi karenge.

---

> Finally and foremost

---

Don’t insult the intellectual level of Indian Muslims. I as a staunch Hindu and a patriot will sharply react to any body stirring communal feelings among the citizens of my country.

---

> Muslims don’t do riots in India. They are equally respectable citizens of this country. Hooligans, mainly political hooligans do riots. And ``Bhare ke gunde``. Dogs who can bark at any and everybody. Mercenaries. And poor villagers who can be bought for money to break down mosques.
You got my point. More Hindu fundamentalists do riots in India than Muslims do. Check your statistics.

NOW WHO WAS BEING JUDGMENTAL? Communal? OR rather mental? Apne gireban me jhank kar dekho.


P.S. what is applicable for US of A and Bihar is not applicable for Delhi.

sanguine/asmitans

In India, the subject of Mr. Jinnah`s revaluation needs to be taken up by mature and balanced people.

Being friendly to your cause, I am sharing with you my firm belief that no group hoping to make any significant difference in the future of India should establish itself as part of the self-righteous lunatic left. Strategically (and you may disagree, morally) that is an unwise persona to project. You may still succeed, but your chances decrease dramatically.

I forgot to mention one very funny incident....

when Mr.Gaur called up the police to ask for the reasons, the person on line was mumbling and groping for answers.

First he said ``Fundamental groups`` -- so our answer was ``no fundamental group had objected so far.``

second he said, ``traffic`` -- so our answer was ``We already have the traffic NOC.``

third he said the funniest thing -- he said `` it`s not morally correct.``

NOW THE million dollar question is, that they didn`t know the content of the play and yet they felt it was morally incorrect. Holy Cow! What is moral for him could be immoral for me. and viceversa. So now the delhi police is going to be the moral police and culture police and not crime controller.

then probably the police will state that it was not morally correct so we decided to clothe the khajuraho sculptures.

What if somebody said that ban the 7 music channels which are airing soft porn music vedios day and night and the delhi rape rate is rockting high influenced by that.

A play reaches a handful of people. TV goes into every home. Can they ban TV? On TV a serial named time bomb 9/11 is being aired. Isn`t the police scared of Al Quaeda? Why wasn`t the serial banned.

addendum to article : Ban on Play Mr. Jinnah

Our group AASMITA has not got permission to stage the play Mr.Jinnah.
The south delhi police simply stopped the NOC without showing any reason.

It was stopped from being staged just a day before the scheduled date. Then on the Police has been giving vague excuses.
First they said that they couldn`t read the script. Which was a very normal hindi typed script, neatly spiral bound for them. They sat on it for 7 days and then they came up with a letter stating ``they request us to defer the play because the script is illegible.``

Then when we Invited the officials to our rehearsals they bluntly refused. Till date they haven`t been able ti cite a cause for the deferance of the play.
Surprisingly no other member of the public or media or newpapers have had any difficulty reading it. So far about 300 people must have gone thru the contents of the play. These are the people who came to see the rehearsals everyday.


After that we got an NOC from another part in delhi. But the funniest part is The auditoriums in that part of Delhi are suddenly finding strange excuses as not to allow booking for the show.

We did make a booking but the booking was cancelled at the last minute. Surprisingly the infomation that the booking was cancelled was given to us not from the auditorium authorities but the police. That means the auditorium was either contacted by the police or vice versa.

``It is simply the name of the play that has invited trouble,`` said theatre personality Ram Gopal Bajaj. ``This action is based on a draconian law made by the British in 1886 on performing arts,`` he said. Auditoriums in the capital are scared of staging the play and Gaur is still seeking a reason.

A representation was given to Police Head quarters on July 08. First they avoided meeting us and then coolly said, ``we haven`t put a ban, we just asked you not to stage it.``
And when we asked, ``But why sir? What is the reason?`` the answer is mum.

We are still awaiting response from Delhi Police. Meanwhile the rehearsal of the play is on. Our group is ready to perform any day in Delhi. And which is going to happen soon.
We are also going on with our efforts to communicate to political and administrative representatives of the State.

sanguine & and other asmita posters:

my reaction to what was said about others was not sharp, but here are my points:

veeresh is an indian who asked some questions and clarifications about what had happened in delhi, and his questions were supported by pakistanis. if you cannot answer or do not wish to answer his questions because you believe they are unreasonable, then that is your call. but jumping the gun as some other indian interactors indeed have here in labelling you, to accuse veeresh of bias. . . where is this bias?

i am a pakistani who supports free speech and artistic expression and the freedom to put on a play about jinnah, or anyone, but when the writer of this letter attributes this in part to hatred of pakistanis and wanting to derail ``peace`` with pakistan, it is going to raise some questions. should you be assuming that those who have not resorted to name-calling but have wished for dialogue are not interested in what you are about? or would not support you?

and no, drlokraj was not the only one who understood where you were coming from, but some of us remained silent because of the name-calling. it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.

all the best,
--ana

Re: # 111

thank you ana, you are right ``it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.``

Even we felt really overwhelmed by the negative publicity going on in the forum. We are giving out the truth to any and everybody across the world. And this is not just happening in this site but in several sites thru-out the world simultaneously. We have no discrimation for any other countrymen or preferance for Indians. I did not try to find out who is what or from where but simply tried to answer some queries in the forum. Pls read our postings no. 85, 86, 87, 87, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 106, 107, IN Detail.

We are constantly in touch with people who are genuinely seeking answers. And we have not discarded any question as unreasonable. Once you go thru these above mentioned postings you will find that we, to our outmost liberty and honesty have answered all the queries raised so far. For any other queries, you may write in and we will reply to that.


Agreed we were a bit delayed in responding. That was simply because we have been running around so much with our 2 other productions, workshops, rehearsals, and the Media doesn`t let us rest, it`s always at our heels. WE needed to get our lives in order after this sudden shocking move.

But those few days have given rise to so many speculations, and preconcieved notions and blatant character assination of the director, the group and the actors of ASMITA that it was really depressing. Ok people want information, we will give it, but that does not mean that they should start accusing the group of seeking cheap publicity and maligning or sladering the motive. It`s not healthy or respectful. They should understand that just because we have a different point of view that doesn`t mean that we are crazy.

I will not take names or posting numbers, but once we went thru them we found most of them carried far fetched and humiliating assumtions and it was seriously hurting our reputation as artists.

For us Jinnah is more a human being first than a pakistani. No man is black or white, everybody has shades of gray. in our play he is a father, a brother, a husband, a friend, and above all this a man, just as he is a politician. The play is kind of an introspective dialogue of a very talented and ambitious man. We are not making any point either political or religious, we are only dealing with a man, a very complex and unusual and powerful man.

We wanted to revisit history and understand history from our perspective. we are not saying that the earlier perspective was wrong, but just that I want to see it differently. We want to go to pakistan. and continue this season of friendship. Someone even suggested we should do the play for pakistanis as well.

And we have tried to depict that in the play. He as a character has become very close to each and every member of ASMITA. And you will be surprised, as we were that the only query we got from all around is ``why stage a play on Jinnah?``. The only answer we can give is that ``He was interesting and still is. can be studied as a complex human chanracter.``

thanks for your posting.

Re: # 111

thank you ana, you are right ``it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.``

Even we felt really overwhelmed by the negative publicity going on in the forum. We are giving out the truth to any and everybody across the world. And this is not just happening in this site but in several sites thru-out the world simultaneously. We have no discrimation for any other countrymen or preferance for Indians. I did not try to find out who is what or from where but simply tried to answer some queries in the forum. Pls read our postings no. 85, 86, 87, 87, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 106, 107, IN Detail.

We are constantly in touch with people who are genuinely seeking answers. And we have not discarded any question as unreasonable. Once you go thru these above mentioned postings you will find that we, to our outmost liberty and honesty have answered all the queries raised so far. For any other queries, you may write in and we will reply to that.


Agreed we were a bit delayed in responding. That was simply because we have been running around so much with our 2 other productions, workshops, rehearsals, and the Media doesn`t let us rest, it`s always at our heels. WE needed to get our lives in order after this sudden shocking move.

But those few days have given rise to so many speculations, and preconcieved notions and blatant character assination of the director, the group and the actors of ASMITA that it was really depressing. Ok people want information, we will give it, but that does not mean that they should start accusing the group of seeking cheap publicity and maligning or sladering the motive. It`s not healthy or respectful. They should understand that just because we have a different point of view that doesn`t mean that we are crazy.

I will not take names or posting numbers, but once we went thru them we found most of them carried far fetched and humiliating assumtions and it was seriously hurting our reputation as artists.

For us Jinnah is more a human being first than a pakistani. No man is black or white, everybody has shades of gray. in our play he is a father, a brother, a husband, a friend, and above all this a man, just as he is a politician. The play is kind of an introspective dialogue of a very talented and ambitious man. We are not making any point either political or religious, we are only dealing with a man, a very complex and unusual and powerful man.

We wanted to revisit history and understand history from our perspective. we are not saying that the earlier perspective was wrong, but just that I want to see it differently. We want to go to pakistan. and continue this season of friendship. Someone even suggested we should do the play for pakistanis as well.

And we have tried to depict that in the play. He as a character has become very close to each and every member of ASMITA. And you will be surprised, as we were that the only query we got from all around is ``why stage a play on Jinnah?``. The only answer we can give is that ``He was interesting and still is. can be studied as a complex human chanracter.``

thanks for your posting.

Sanguine/107:

you said: ``. . .told you earlier that we were not here to discuss the script or merely freedom speech. We will welcome a discussion on ``strangling Art forms in the city`` and ``Infringing on the fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` in the name of moral policing. If you find that your topic, then you are welcome. That is our agenda, and we don`t want to deviate from it for one person. Thank you anyway.``

I say: Is your fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` excluding mine? Is your anarchy of not placing a script in advance different from mine? You are without a leg on this one, take a look.

In addition, if you were not here to discuss the script, then why did you place all those homilies about Indo-Pak relationships there?

India is a free country, and my entitlements are as much as are yours, so get that straight. To start with.

So if you want absolute freedom of speech, well live with others` expectations too.

And if you want some elements of society based etiquettes, then expect them from others.

But you can`t have freedom of speech for ASMITA and chains for others.

Or is that what you REALLY want?

+++

you said: ``And the decision to not put up the script till it is published came from both Arvindji and ASMITA. We respect the author and his right on his piece of work. The idea of putting the msg here on this forum is not to discuss the script. It was and will be, to discuss the police highhanded attitude on a simple play by a small group of artists, for no rhyme or reason. ``

I say: Fine, you don`t want to publish, then don`t do so. But you have to respect the Constitution of India, which is paramount. Read it carefully, and see what it says about exactly this subject of Freedom of Speech.

And can you specify the police high-handedness? Do you even know what police high-handedness for no rhyme or reason is? Of course you do, Arvind has done a few plays on that subject too, but do you really know?

+++

I would love to read the play. But you are not permitting that. And therein lies the conflict.

You fix it, dear Lady.

And interim, I have not seen any public comment or statement by ASMITA or ARVIND GAUR saying that they have denied publication of the script.

Matter of fact, if this was Maharashtra, I could, under the Maharashtra Right to Information Act, legitimately ask you and the Police for an advance copy of the script. And both parties would HAVE to provide it to me, at 50 paise per page photocopied.

As you may know, in Delhi, the Delhi Police come directly under the Central government, and I can`t use the DRTI Act to ask them for the script.

But that`s changing, too.

+++

There is no sword in my hand. Understand what I am saying.

You don`t want the police to step into the picture for reasons of YOUR freedom of speech. But if I exercise the rights to MY freedom of speech then you will call the same police, right? Read Mahatma Gandhi and learn agitation, instead of just getting agitated.

And I am willing to run that as a test case, if you so desire. Let us see how YOUR freedom of speech is different from MY freedom of speech.

Not just 12 Shakespeare spouting city-intelligensia, but maybe some Baud tribal singers, bhajan mandli from Sonepat and Goan fisherfolk, too.

+++

Your freedom of speech is great but what about the rest of us in Indian society?

Veeresh

Sanguine/106 - thank you for your rather un-sanguine explanation on why you choose to ``target`` some people. Is it, possibly, that your concept of freedom of speech as applicable for you yourself is different from the freedom of speech you expect for and from others?

Now let me explain chowk to you slightly better. If you will look around, it says ``at chowk, all are welcome to read, write and think``. Something like a real-life chowk.

As of now, the ``motive`` of your posting is still not clear.

If it is about Indo-Pak relationships, it appears as though you are trying to say that only your views should prevail and others views are not even open to discussion?

If it is about freedom of spoeech. then it appears as though you are trying to set different standards for different people, ASMITA is entitled to freedom of speech but we aren`t.

If it is about monetary loss, then it appears as though ASMITA is available to the highest bidder, shall we put out a plate for Rs 35k since that was the sum mentioned?

If it is about slanderous remarks and comments, then believe me, ASMITA as a theatre group does not have the copyright on it, though they do it quite well and quite often, and as I have said before, more power to Arvind Gaur.

if it is about people who think similar to you to engage in discussions with, then why have a discussion, uh-oh, I forgot, that is how the Communist Left-wing think, discussion must proceed along specific pre-ordained lines only, right? No, not right, left.

You, dear separate gene-pool Bengali lady Sanguine, appear to be terribly confused. Please decide the goal-posts you want to adhere to or be prepared for the others to shift goal-posts, too.

Lal Salaam and all that jazz to you, too.

ANA and Ajeya

---

The terms immature and insane were targetted at the people who were exactly that in this forum. I never took names neither did I refer to their postings(you presumed that I did) . So I don`t see why you reacted so sharply to it.

For your information I am not a new comer, (that`s another presumption). This forum is different from a chatroom. We were here to discuss a serious issue, but had unwelcome guests, who were, spreading rumours laced with communal feelings, about the play, about the group, the director and everything to do with Jinnah. There are people who are still making slanderous remarks and comments on ASMITA and it`s members. Some have even started threatening. I have to tell them that they are creating more communal tension than the play or the script could.

As for drlokraj -- I still feel that he was and is the only person who has, understod the real motive of our posting and has understood the real problem. And he made a comment without making any slanderous remark on any one or passing any judgment on ASMITA, or without threatening anybody. So I respect his view, and we are still looking for some more people like him who could discuss the issue without creating tension and mudslinging at each other.

Dear Asmitans

(1) This resident of north Indian gutters has only one gutterish message to offer to you ladies and gentlemen.

- Stay away from the trap of self-righteousness. Do not assume that the world owes you anything merely because your objective is noble.


(2) There is a school of thought forcefully arguing that Asmita is a mistake of one`s mind. Would any of you agree? Disagree? Could you be mistaken?

sanguine/100 - please let us know if you wish to discuss the contents of the play (which we do not know about so we are at a disadvantage) or about freedom of speech in India. Crass language and crude attitudes are a matter of opinion, and both have been used by theatre-practitioners including Arvind Gaur to great effect, more power to their skills.

If the debate is about ``strangling of art in the city``, then may I suggest you please look around you some more? Much of what goes on in the we breathe air of India is free, one play here and there does not make a difference if it is delayed a bit. That`s life and stop behaving like a spoilt child denied his/her chocolates.

Incidentally, your refusal to put the script up, is it as as an individual or as ASMITA?

+++

arvind/99, these articles and more were freely available on google. The script, unfortunately, is still not available anywhere.

Those who want freedom of speech, Sir, do not hide behind ``copyright``. In any case what sort of ``copyright`` prevents a play from being commercially published, at a cost? The way you are using ``freedom of speech`` here is selective, and in itself trampling on my rights.

You still don`t understand, do you? Please don`t insult me by trying to say that I come and shout at your play, please let us have some understanding here that both of us can use freedom of speech to intelligent ends to prove a point.

So again, if we landed up at your play with our rights to freedom of speech like yours and started performing from the seats, well, that`s freedom of speech, right? A dozen of us come with nothing but our voices, no electronic aids or anything, and start performing very loudly from different parts of the hall a sit-in-seat version of any of Shakespeare`s (published) plays, not to discuss it with you but for the sake of pure anarchy, then would you uphold our rights for freedom of speech or would you call the police to throw us out?

+++

I tell you one thing, Mr Gaur :- you don`t know about the denial of freedom of speech in the real world out there, which is why you find it so easy to talk about the supposed denial in India. That is my argument with you, if you can see it.

Freedom of speech is not only about theatre and media, or the baba-log/baby-log putting on make-believe war-paint and jumping up and down on a stage, I hope you appreciate.

veeresh Re: # 104

I told you earlier that we were not here to discuss the script or merely freedom speech. We will welcome a discussion on ``strangling Art forms in the city`` and ``Infringing on the fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` in the name of moral policing. If you find that your topic, then you are welcome. That is our agenda, and we don`t want to deviate from it for one person. Thank you anyway.

And the decision to not put up the script till it is published came from both Arvindji and ASMITA. We respect the author and his right on his piece of work. The idea of putting the msg here on this forum is not to discuss the script. It was and will be, to discuss the police highhanded attitude on a simple play by a small group of artists, for no rhyme or reason.

You are right, one play here or there is not so important. It would only make as much difference to anybody as an unnamed road. Why then people are boiling their blood and spending sleepless nights to stop it. Obviously there is more to it than meets the eye. I guess you will understand it in some time.

I have denied a debate with you, only because I think you need to see or read the play first. I have interacted with people who have kept an open mind for debate and discussion. But you have already chosen to believe that we are a bunch of nerds or rather spoiled kids or babalog/babylog donning war paint and jumping on the stage or whatever, and it seems we have already hurt the sentiments of people across the borders!?! So no point wasting my time to make you see the point.

AND we are not at all staging the play to ``prove any point``. As the Delhi police and now some interactors have presumed on their own.

Our Play is not targeted at creating anarchy, or hurting sentiments or breaking law and order or abusing anybody’s fundamental rights. It is an intense play of a Man’s life and work and how he transforms from Mr.Jinaah to Quaid-e-azam Jinnah. And we are still clueless, how it could scare the police so much. It didn`t even scare the fundamentalists.

And also the other reason is

---

you have repeatedly threatened to create anarchy at the play I quote -- ``if we landed up at your play with our rights to freedom of speech like yours and started performing from the seats, well, that’s freedom of speech, right? A dozen of us come with nothing but our voices, no electronic aids or anything, and start performing very loudly from different parts of the hall a sit-in-seat version of any of Shakespeare’s (published) plays, not to discuss it with you but for the sake of pure anarchy, then would you uphold our rights for freedom of speech or would you call the police to throw us out?``

In this scenario I already see a sword in your hand. THAT IS THE ATTITUDE I GOT FROM MANY OTHERS IN THIS FORUM.

And we don’t engage into debate with biased people until they are open in their minds and respect other people. A debate is not a war. And war is not our motive.
If people are taking out their personal vendetta against ASMITA, then it’s entirely their point of view. It doesn`t hamper our move.

I think you are totally on tangent from our issue and you are constantly harping on infuriating statements (read warcries). Neither do I have time for that, nor will I not go down to that level to say ``who you are and what paint you have put on your face``.

au-revoir

Re: # 107

`Conpucius` say be wise and see the writing on the wall.Ordinary citizen (of India) who goes about his business, a microcosm of which appears on this forum also, DOES NOT want to see play about Jinnah.Enough said.Let controversial playwright of this play, lick his wounds, go back and write another play, less offending, and , if it is good, the public will watch it.Let him not incite artists and the public for his own selfish ends. The public will have the last word on `free speech`.Not those among us who will take advantage of it.

i suspect that sanguine has only read what he or she wanted to read, and disregarded the rest.

isn`t that what most of us do here at chowk?

why should newcomers be any different? :)

p. s. insanity is something i will plead guilty to, but immaturity. . . ? :)

Re: #101 by sanguine

[I think the only sane and mature and non judgemental posting that has come into this forum so far, was from you.]

So the other postings are not sane and also immature?

Very non-judgemental of you.

:-)