Ban on Play Mr. Jinnah

Ajeya:

``For example, the Patriot Act is far more restrictive than any legislation currently in India (after POTA got scrapped)``

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

The Patriot Act is given above. Please tell me where it is restrictive towards US Citizens.

Ajeya, Kaura etc:

The whole point of Free Speech is that it protects UNPOPULAR speech. Otherwise, why is India any different than Pakistan? In fact, even Pakistan allows free speech to the extent that the media is full of criticism against Musharraf etc....

Veeresh:

It could be that 2 tickets are sold..thats fgine..

``Well, s/he occupies a chair and position given to him by the Sovereign, under the Constitution of the Country, so s/he has a right to take what s/he deems to be lawful action. ``

Any law, however restrictive, comes through because the established government passes it. Even the Judenrein laws of Nazi Germany were passed by a democratically elected government. The point though is not if the government passes them but if the law is constitutional. If the Constitution of India provides for Free Speech, then the law is illegal. But in India that does not happen.

Ajeya:

``And types like Stuka would be in the front with their megaphones condemning the HORRIBLE government that ALLOWED such a thing to happen. ``

Don`t talk out of your ass. Yes, I would condemn the government if they allowed riots to happen. If Muslims go on a rampage because some Moron on American TV criticizes Islam, take strict action against them. Same of Hindus do so...

But the restriction should be on idiots who riot, not those who merely speak out. Are you too thick headed to see the difference?

And no, one does not need Police Permission to express views in the US.

Mike gave fitting reply to naali ke keera hotel boy Stuka

Re: # 50, Stuka, and others, some of your points are well taken, but what do you and others who bring up such valid points do about it?

Street theatre is one. Discussions are another. The media is yet one more. Going to the Courts requires a knowledge of law. &c &c.

But what do you do to try to really change things if you are man-on-the street??

Let me give you some ideas:-

a) Petition the President of India, file a complaint with the Public Grievances, all this is now possible on the Internet. No fees.

b) Read up on the Right to Information Act, both National as well as for each State.

Say, for example, you want to file a query under the RTIA in Delhi, you don`t even need to be a resident of Delhi (you do need to be an Indian with an address in India, though, where you will receive your responses), you go to the website, download the forms, fill them up and send them with the required fees (25/- for first application, and 50/- for appeal).

c) Spend two weeks every year in a vilage in India through any NGO/group you choose.

+++

Do something. Don`t fall for the whiners traps.

+++

cheers/Veeresh

ps: Vaise, I have a great idea about a play to be staged outside a Dunkin` Diners . . .

Veeresh:

Good points. My beef in this case is to some extent with the government, but even more so with fellow citizens to find this acceptable. It is usually tye middle class that is willing to trade freedoms for stability (not a India specific phenomenon) and yet it is the middle class that has the most to lose in an erosion of civil liberties.

Re: Miscellaneous by Stuka


[http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

The Patriot Act is given above. Please tell me where it is restrictive towards US Citizens.]


This HAS to be the most idiotic and uninformed statement I have heard in a LONG time. Even worse than tahmed32 posts.

If I had known you would make this comment, I would not have responded to your post to begin with.

Have you been away from TV, newspapers, other human beings etc. for the last few years?

You are not joking, right?

Do you really want me to quote the millions of talk shows, newspaper reports, interviews, protests and hundreds of lawsuits regarding this act?

If you do, let me know.

Unbelievable!



[The whole point of Free Speech is that it protects UNPOPULAR speech.]


It`s not me, but YOU, who is speaking ``out of your ass``.

There are THOUSANDS of newspapers writing WHATEVER they want in India everyday, with diametrically opposed points of view that are completely abhorrent to the other side.

And cable TV is no different.



[Otherwise, why is India any different than Pakistan?]


Because India is a democracy, Pakistan is not. You might want to move to Pakistan, by the way.



[In fact, even Pakistan allows free speech to the extent that the media is full of criticism against Musharraf etc.... ]


Yes, ``to the extent`` is right.

You have major problems, my friend. Are you Pakistani or something? Did you graduate from JNU? What`s your story, I wonder.



[But the restriction should be on idiots who riot, not those who merely speak out. Are you too thick headed to see the difference? ]


No, YOU are the one that is thick-headed.

Laws vary from country to country.

BJP, VHP and RSS leaders are arrested on a routine basis to prevent potential public disturbances.

Different countries have different laws regarding peace enforcement. In the USA, for example, you are not allowed to fly within certain “sensitive” areas without prior permission. If you are from the Indian Subcontinent, you will be pulled aside and searched much more frequently at airports as well as other sensitive establishments. It is a long list.

You CAN speak out all you want in India. Performing a play is different, because it can be deemed to have a greater potential to cause trouble. This is expressly because of your friends across the border, and inside the country.




[And no, one does not need Police Permission to express views in the US. ]


I know it will be hard, but strive not to make IDIOTIC statements.

I never said that you need Police Permission to express views in the US.

All interactors,

I just got back from work and am trying to keep up with the interacts and new posts. Obviously, I have fallen WAY behind.

I would like to single out and respond to a couple of the interactors on this board.

#9 by Ana
[Beejay:
let me ask you a question. has farzana versey become your current pinyata? is it so vital for you to bring up her name, like some others do, on every bleeding board? or to respond to her wherever she is by tearing what she has to say apart. not even those ``who know where she`s coming from`` do that. you`ve gone one up even on those who call her names like b itch and w hore on boards she hasn`t even participated on: you`ve included her as your favorite writer, without meaning a single word, as a slam in your ilog.
keep it up! it will eventually say just as much about you as it does her!]

Ana, you are right, of course! It’s clear as daylight that I have messed up. I keep beating up on what, after all, is a single writer, even if I sometimes do feel that she is probably the glue that holds a lot of this chowk community together.

So, here goes:

First, I must apologize to Farzana. My slanderous words (whatever their justification in my mind at a given moment) have no place in any kind of civilized discourse!

Second, I must apologize to anyone who felt slighted by my making references to Mr. Jinnah using very uncharitable words. Just to clarify things to every one – although I have not read a lot about Mr. Jinnah, I do believe that he WAS a great man for his time. This also is an obvious fact – his single-handedly creating a whole new country (although others like TAhmed feel that he was helped through mistakes made by the “other side” – and they may have a point. I just don’t know enough to be able to say anything conclusively myself).

Third, for what it’s worth (and of course these are perhaps not legitimate justifications), here is what has caused me to be so vituperative recently:

(1) Part of the reason I feel upset is the way discussion takes place here – the obstinacy of many people to see the reality – sometimes that drives me up the wall. Farzana seems to do some of that too, although at times it’s unclear whether she is saying things just to make people mad, without really meaning it. In the past though, she has always said that she writes from her heart, so perhaps she really does mean even THOSE things!

(2) The other part is my own regard for Farzana’s talent and skills (not to mention my own emotional investment – because she has indeed been (without knowing a lot about me personally (except the little bit she knows through direct e-mails, sent as an individual)) an agent of great and positive changes in my life). Therefore, I feel totally clueless in reconciling her obvious compassion for everybody with singling out one particular group of people who essentially got “ethnically cleansed” out of their ancient homeland and comparing these people with horses (as in the title of the movie “They Shoot Horses, Don’t They”). I’m not sure if the enormity of what that implies escapes her or not, I know it drives ME bonkers! (And although she is right in saying that her views have always been there for anyone to see – it’s also the truth that I had not read them (except perhaps a quick glance, after all it was an OLD article, and most people’s ideas evolve over time, and there is always stuff flooding in – from her as well as from others).) Her refusal to directly come out and deal with it has made me even more upset, and my words meaner!

(3) I have always believed (and Farzana is aware of those beliefs) that she has certain very special skills. The fact that she chooses to use those skills destructively the way she appears to do also bothers me a whole lot – even though I have tried to conduct a lot of rationalization in my mind, eventually at some point the rationalization fails!

Farzana is right in her i-log of today (July 6, 2005)! She has the ability to get mean (as implied by her new uploaded picture) and definitely has power to destroy a single insignificant individual like me! I don’t doubt that for a minute (funny thing is that I even feel a little honored that she is focusing on just little me (and Arjuna was not considered brave for killing little weeds (I believe that distinction was earned by Chanakya), but real enemies that were worthy enemies of him))! Farzana probably has the resources, she probably has the time, but most importantly, she CERTAINLY has the words – words which (in my view) are not ordinary words, period. Yet, I also do believe that she has in her power a lot more than what it takes to be “hiding in a garden”! The garden is after all – made up, the world out there is real! The garden only has flowers. Real life is all thorns! The garden only looks good, the world makes a difference! People who protect just themselves are the true “run of the mill”, not those who are willing to take on the thorns outside that garden! And, in spite of what ANYONE says, the world can and does change!

So yes, Farzana can destroy (at least VIRTUALLY) this one useless individual (“weed” in her words) with all my limitations and shortcomings and everything else – but will that make the questions go away? Certainly, it’s not ME who can answer that! Therefore, Farzana, if that`s your call, then that`s your call!

Having said all that, it’s also undeniable at this point that I am no more a positive contributor to this whole chowk equation. What I at one point criticized others for in my i-log “The Secret Adversary”, is now what I have become a practicing example of! I’ll try to see what I can do about that – perhaps to temper my responses – perhaps even to say nothing, if possible!

Accordingly, enough said!

(Note: I’ll revise my interactor’s page, Ana, for I see your point! And also, for what it’s worth, this nick “BeeJay” and “CD_Lion” are the only two nicks that I have used over the last three months (I do have a couple of other nicks, but I have even forgotten their passwords – it has been so long since I last used them).)

#16 Miriamk
Thanks for seeing at least a little bit of “wisdom” in my post. Sometimes, I like YOUR views and temperament a lot better than those of Farzana Versey! That’s all!

Stuka, you need to relax bro. No point getting banned just because of some Mike-shike types. Aap ki neeyat pe koi shaque nahi kar raha hai. You are right ``free speech`` does not mean the same in India, Pakistan, the US or the UK. More`s the pity, but one hopes, with education and ``enlightenment`` will come more freedom as well.

But Veeresh also has a valid point. It was reported in the papers about the faxed copy of the script not being legible, etc. Which brings us to the main issue- what in phuck`s name is the damned play about anyway? ``Mr. Jinnah`` is such a vague title. YLH already seems to think the play will have more appeal in Pakistan than India. Ha

---

I wouldn`t jump to such conclusions as yet, man!

If the play is about what a bad man Jinnah was for dividing India into 3 pieces and causing millions of deaths and crores of rupees worth of damage, well, what;`s new-we`ve been force fed that since Std. V History. Neither Hindus nor Muslims would complain much, and I suspect the play would fold up after a show or two.

If the play is about how secular Mr. Jinnah was, based on anecdotal evidence such as his oft-quoted-by-YLH vision of a secular rather than Islamic Pakistan, the fact that he ate pork and drank liquor, and the fact that he married a Christian/Parsi/whatever, it will anger both Hindus and Muslims. We like to think all that waste of life was worth something. A fanatical Jinnah is essential in our imagination to protect ourselves from the truth- that he was just being a politican and didn`t stand for anything much at all. But even then, most people wouldn`t be bothered about going watching the play, because a. it`s not that interesting; b. Shiv Sainiks would probably be attacking the theatre and painting Mr. Gaur`s face black, etc., which nobody really wants to see.

If it`s about how the seemingly secular Jinnah was actually a closet Islamist who disinherited his daughter for marrying outside the faith etc., well, that`s just gonna upset YLH. So that would be pretty safe, not worthy of banning.

So either way, this play is a non-issue, worthy only of academic debate among those who have the time and money for it; or perhaps to rile up those extreme elements of both faiths who just about need a pretext to go about their destructive ways anyway. Nothing to do with us hardworking folks who go about our business with the vision of a bright future for our kids inspired by such optimists as Thomas Friedman and hoping some day all this nonsense will just go away because people will start thinking about things that really matter.

This is the positive side of India.Indeed, this is what the sub-continent needs more than the petulant pouting of homeosexual artists.Get a day job is my request to them....

Easier visas big boost to India-S`pore flows

By WEE LI-EN

(SINGAPORE) The relaxation of visa restrictions for travel between India and Singapore under the newly signed economic agreement will go a long way towards facilitating the flow of investment and talent between the two countries, business executives said.

Number of indian professionals in Singapore: 100,000.
Number of indian companies in Singapore: 2000
Singapore investment in India;US$ 3 billlion.
Trade between India and Singapore: US$6.5 billion.

Predeep Menon, executive director of the Singapore Indian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said that although it is hard to estimate the increase in bilateral flow of talent and investment following the easing of travel restrictions, the cutting of red tape will go a long way to make business and work cheaper, as well as more convenient for professionals and businessmen.

Currently, there are about 100,000 Indian professionals and 2,000 Indian companies in Singapore in the IT, accountancy, banking and pharmaceuticals industries.

Of those 2,000 Indian companies, about 1,400 came to Singapore in the past seven years.

There are no official figures for the number of Singaporean professionals and businesses in India.

Under the India-Singapore Comprehensive Economic Cooperation Agreement (CECA) signed last week, Singaporean businessmen with five-year multiple-journey visas will be able to enter and engage in business for up to three months at a time in India. There will be reciprocal treatment for Indian nationals visiting Singapore.

Short-term service suppliers will be given temporary entry to service contracts for up to 90 days in the first instance, while professionals employed in 127 specific occupations can stay for up to one year.

Employees involved in intra-corporate transfers can stay and work in India or Singapore for up to two years, which may be extended up to eight years.

These measures will enable businessmen and professionals who travel frequently at short notice to hop on a plane and make business decisions more quickly.

`Long-term visas will certainly increase the convenience and reduce the costs of doing business in both countries,` Mr Menon said.

Richard Koh, manager of markets development (South Asia) at the Singapore Business Federation, believes that the easing of travel restrictions will cause a greater flow of Indian talent into Singapore rather than the other way round.

`The skills of Indian nationals are comparable to Singaporeans, but the salaries are higher here,` said Mr Koh.

While the easing of travel restrictions facilitates business and work, the attraction of Indian business and talent to Singapore depends ultimately on market supply and demand, said Mr Menon.

Copyright © 2005 Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. All rights reserved.


--

Ajeya:

Dude, do not run away with semantics. I follow the news, apparently better than you. And I am intelligent enough to realize the difference between action against US Citizens and NON Citizens. Why do you not tell me what the Patriot Act says abt limiting the right of citizens? IDIOT!

Besides, I moved out of India to live in the states..out of choice...who the hell are you to tell me where to move.

Ref stuka #51

[Don`t talk out of your ass. Yes, I would condemn the government if they allowed riots to happen. If Muslims go on a rampage because some Moron on American TV criticizes Islam, take strict action against them. Same of Hindus do so...]

What if Muslims riot because somebody criticized Islam on INDIAN TV? Would you take action against the rioters or would you say that this is what normally happens in India (because we have a whole bunch of unemployed folks who can be roused up for a demonstration-turned-riot) and censor such speech on TV? What is more logical from the point of maintaining law and order?

[But the restriction should be on idiots who riot, not those who merely speak out.]

Even the LA Police, with all its video cameras and other high tech equipment, were unable to nab all those who rioted when the policement who attacked Rodney King were acquitted. Do you expect police in the little town of Ayodhya or Big Bad Bombay to be any better?

Ref stuka #50

[Any law, however restrictive, comes through because the established government passes it. Even the Judenrein laws of Nazi Germany were passed by a democratically elected government. The point though is not if the government passes them but if the law is constitutional. If the Constitution of India provides for Free Speech, then the law is illegal. But in India that does not happen.]

Actually, it DOES happen in India. The High Courts as well as the Supreme Court can be and are being petitioned on any and every bloody issue. There are even Public Interest Litigation (PIL) cases admitted directly by the High Courts and the Supreme Court.

And no, the Supreme Court of India has NEVER ever interfered and suspended the counting of the votes while contemplating its arse and a month later said there isn`t enough time to count the votes so the current bogus count stands. Unlike some other country we all live in.

At this rate you will soon be singing ``Jaya Dubya Bush Hare, Swami Jaya Dubya Bush Hare``!

Ref stuka #43

[Maaderchod Mike Ghasiyani Randi key pilley: I have more auqat than a scum bag like you..Abey tera Baap IAS ka chor hai Goswami kee tarah is liyey tuuney bheek nahi maangi. Otherwise India still has plenty of Bhikaris.

Aur Yeh lay India ka PPP GDP Ranking aur isko apni gaand my ghussa Bhenchod. After 55 years of Independence Indis is below Occupied Palestenian Territories...All because we have the mifortune of being ruled by Haraamzaadey Babus like tera Bhadva Baap.]

Do you just post the statistics or do you make an effort to understand them?

As I see it, India Indis is ranked just ahead of Botswana though Botswana has more than 3 times India`s per capita GDP. And Sweden is ahead of the next 6 countries in HDI in spite of having a lower per capita GDP than those countries.

To me it looks like these countries have made a conscious effort to IMPROVE their HDI as opposed to spending their money on dropping bombs on Viet Nam or Iraq.

Re: #59 by stuka


[Dude, do not run away with semantics.]

Semantics: The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form

Which interpretation of what sentence did I “run away” with?

[I follow the news, apparently better than you.]

Why is this “apparent”?

[And I am intelligent enough to realize the difference between action against US Citizens and NON Citizens. Why do you not tell me what the Patriot Act says abt limiting the right of citizens? IDIOT! ]

As I always do, before calling someone an idiot, you have to establish the reason why you are calling him that.

1) WHERE did you mention CITIZENS/NON-CITIZENS?

2) Even CITIZENS in US have VASTLY reduced rights under the Patriot Act. Under this Act, unlike before, ANY citizen’s ANY aspect of life – personal, business or otherwise, can be monitored and recorded without charging him/her with anything. The rules for getting permission from a judge by showing probable cause is also very lax now.

Go to the Human Rights Watch website to learn more.

Here, check this out:

http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/const-assault.html

Let me know, and I’ll give you a lot more. Have to run now.

[Besides, I moved out of India to live in the states..out of choice...who the hell are you to tell me where to move.]

Well, as a loyal Indian, I do not want subversive and treacherous elements like yourself to set foot in my country again. If India is so bad, DON’T COME BACK, NOT EVEN FOR A VISIT!

Ref dullabhatti #32

[BTW what can be a male name is Susan....we had Bobbi, Bittu, Billu etc but Susan....Susan Brar..wtf?]

What? You have never heard the song ``A Boy Named Sue``?