Ban on Play Mr. Jinnah
arvind gaur July 5, 2005
#97 Posted by arvind on July 10, 2005 11:32:06 am
FRIENDS, ONE MORE INTERESTING ARTICLE FOR U...
Just beat it! ..... Society
From ‘skimpy’ clothes to fashion shows and dance bars,
the moral cops will have none of it
By K. Sunil Thomas/ THE WEEK
Anil Shukla, Delhi’s Additional Deputy Commissioner of Police, is a very busy person. But from June 21, for the better part of a week, he has not been occupied with major law and order issues. Instead, Shukla’s job has been to ensure that Arvind Gaur’s play Mr Jinnah is not staged in the capital.
Gaur himself does not know why the play has run into trouble and can only presume that it has something to do with the recent political storm over BJP president L.K. Advani’s comments on Pakistan’s father of the nation. The official reason given is that the copy of the script Gaur had submitted to the police for review was not ‘legible’, and that the venue, the India Habitat Centre, did not have fire safety clearance.
``It is simply the name of the play that has invited trouble,`` said theatre personality Ram Gopal Bajaj. ``This action is based on a draconian law made by the British in 1886 on performing arts,`` he said. Auditoriums in the capital are scared of staging the play and Gaur is still seeking a reason.
``Our collective social freedom is more important than individual freedom,`` Gaur
admitted. ``But we can respect social freedom only if individual freedom too is respected.``
Theatre personality Anasuya Vaidya said that a regulatory code for perfoming arts ``has to come through discussion and consensus``.
Are our personal freedoms under threat? So it would seem, from the spate of seemingly unconnected incidents and rulings across the country. India’s so-called beacon of liberal mores, ‘maximum city’ Mumbai, has been making news for the last few months over the closure of its dance bars—a sleazy, but perfectly legal, sexual tension release for thousands of men. In banning it for, apparently, being an immoral den for prostitution, the Congress-Nationalist Congress Party alliance, seemed to take over the moral-policing role played by its main opposition, the Shiv Sena.
That’s not all. The rape of a girl in Delhi in early May prompted the principal of the city’s Kirori Mal College to ban western attire, like jeans. A backlash from student organisations and women’s groups forced the principal to tender an apology and withdraw the ban, but dress code proposals for girls are pending in at least two other colleges in the capital.
``If skimpy clothes are the provocation for rapes, why are such atrocities on women more common in the villages of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Uttaranchal, than in cities like Delhi?`` asked Rohit, Delhi University student leader. He says colleges take the easy route to escape from the obligation to offer counselling and to form an elected body to deal with issues of sexual harassment.
Why are Indians averse to change? Economist Asit Roy said that it is because of a ``psyche averse to change and doings things differently``.
Small towns are not new to curbs on freedom. A few years ago, in Kanpur, activists of the BJP youth wing, the ABVP, succeeded in making girls’ colleges enforce a dress code allowing them to wear only the salwar-kameez with a dupatta. Two girls who refused to conform were refused entry into college and received death threats. Right wing activists in the city also hogged headlines a couple of years ago when they went around vandalising restaurants and greeting card shops, and scaring away boys and girls on Valentine’s Day.
In Lucknow, the Students` Islamic Movement of India decreed that all Muslim girls venturing out of their homes must wear a burqa, and not use lipstick. Men were to wear a sherwani at least once a week.
One of the first moves of the BJP government which took over in Madhya Pradesh was to call for a dress code for girls in college campuses in Bhopal, though finally it was not carried through. However, it banned fashion shows and film-based cultural programmes on campuses.
No go: Women giving `Ayurvedic` massages to men could be banned
The Congress government in Kerala, too, banned fashion shows and cinematic dances on college campuses in June, besides banning students from carrying mobile phones. Apparently, a ban on women giving ayurvedic massages to men and vice versa, will soon be in place, as the government feels that it is a cover for ‘sex tourism’.
Many people probably thought that the Sushma Swaraj brand of puritanism would be shown the door when the NDA government lost power. The former I&B minister had been more concerned about the necklines of Doordarshan news readers and the risqué fare on Fashion TV (though, one closed-door meeting with FTV president Michel Adams was enough to give a clean chit to the channel, even if the programming remained unchanged) than issues like streamlining the chaotic industry. More authoritarian infringements on personal liberty have been passed, however, over the last few months under the Congress government.
Health minister Anbumani Ramadoss’s attempt to ban smoking in films is one such. ``Seventy six per cent of the 800-900 movies made in India had smoking scenes,`` he said. ``I have definite information that the tobacco industry directly pays cinema stars to smoke in films.`` Anil Kapoor, who has ``smoked in several films``, denied he had ever been paid me to endorse a brand. ``The ban would mean that certain stories cannot be made into films, such as a film on Winston Churchill,`` said actor Shah Rukh Khan. ``I do not think youngsters take to smoking because film stars are shown smoking in films.``
Kamal Mitra Chinoy, sociologist at the Jawaharlal Nehru University, feels that Ramadoss’s worries would have been better directed to the Aids pandemic or the resistant strains of tuberculosis. ``The whole effort [towards banning smoking in films] seems based on the presumption that individuals lack judgment and that the state knows what is best for them,`` he said. ``The whole process has been undemocratic. There was no discussion with the ministries, the censor board or film-makers.`` Tarot card reader Mita Bhan suggests a ``statutory warning on screen when a star lights up on screen``.
The campaign against tobacco picked up momentum in the late 90s with a spate of rulings in Delhi, Goa and Kerala. It reached a crescendo when Sushma took over the health ministry and got her colleagues to ban tobacco advertisements. Following it came restrictions on gutka and paan consumption. Y.P. Chhibbar, general secretary of the People’s Union of Civil Liberties, is now planning to mobilise public opinion through seminars and meetings on what he calls the ``whims of ministers.... people who are new to political power trying to push their way up at the expense of personal liberties.``
Sanjeev Bhargava, member of the Censor Board, says that while ``in India, we tend to bind people in a code of conduct, countries with liberal laws and an open society have actually only prospered``. He feels that we need to enforce the laws that are in place. Chinoy agrees. ``The only kind of moral policing we need is an honest cop,`` he said.
Just beat it! ..... Society
From ‘skimpy’ clothes to fashion shows and dance bars,
the moral cops will have none of it
By K. Sunil Thomas/ THE WEEK
Anil Shukla, Delhi’s Additional Deputy Commissioner of Police, is a very busy person. But from June 21, for the better part of a week, he has not been occupied with major law and order issues. Instead, Shukla’s job has been to ensure that Arvind Gaur’s play Mr Jinnah is not staged in the capital.
Gaur himself does not know why the play has run into trouble and can only presume that it has something to do with the recent political storm over BJP president L.K. Advani’s comments on Pakistan’s father of the nation. The official reason given is that the copy of the script Gaur had submitted to the police for review was not ‘legible’, and that the venue, the India Habitat Centre, did not have fire safety clearance.
``It is simply the name of the play that has invited trouble,`` said theatre personality Ram Gopal Bajaj. ``This action is based on a draconian law made by the British in 1886 on performing arts,`` he said. Auditoriums in the capital are scared of staging the play and Gaur is still seeking a reason.
``Our collective social freedom is more important than individual freedom,`` Gaur
admitted. ``But we can respect social freedom only if individual freedom too is respected.``
Theatre personality Anasuya Vaidya said that a regulatory code for perfoming arts ``has to come through discussion and consensus``.
Are our personal freedoms under threat? So it would seem, from the spate of seemingly unconnected incidents and rulings across the country. India’s so-called beacon of liberal mores, ‘maximum city’ Mumbai, has been making news for the last few months over the closure of its dance bars—a sleazy, but perfectly legal, sexual tension release for thousands of men. In banning it for, apparently, being an immoral den for prostitution, the Congress-Nationalist Congress Party alliance, seemed to take over the moral-policing role played by its main opposition, the Shiv Sena.
That’s not all. The rape of a girl in Delhi in early May prompted the principal of the city’s Kirori Mal College to ban western attire, like jeans. A backlash from student organisations and women’s groups forced the principal to tender an apology and withdraw the ban, but dress code proposals for girls are pending in at least two other colleges in the capital.
``If skimpy clothes are the provocation for rapes, why are such atrocities on women more common in the villages of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Uttaranchal, than in cities like Delhi?`` asked Rohit, Delhi University student leader. He says colleges take the easy route to escape from the obligation to offer counselling and to form an elected body to deal with issues of sexual harassment.
Why are Indians averse to change? Economist Asit Roy said that it is because of a ``psyche averse to change and doings things differently``.
Small towns are not new to curbs on freedom. A few years ago, in Kanpur, activists of the BJP youth wing, the ABVP, succeeded in making girls’ colleges enforce a dress code allowing them to wear only the salwar-kameez with a dupatta. Two girls who refused to conform were refused entry into college and received death threats. Right wing activists in the city also hogged headlines a couple of years ago when they went around vandalising restaurants and greeting card shops, and scaring away boys and girls on Valentine’s Day.
In Lucknow, the Students` Islamic Movement of India decreed that all Muslim girls venturing out of their homes must wear a burqa, and not use lipstick. Men were to wear a sherwani at least once a week.
One of the first moves of the BJP government which took over in Madhya Pradesh was to call for a dress code for girls in college campuses in Bhopal, though finally it was not carried through. However, it banned fashion shows and film-based cultural programmes on campuses.
No go: Women giving `Ayurvedic` massages to men could be banned
The Congress government in Kerala, too, banned fashion shows and cinematic dances on college campuses in June, besides banning students from carrying mobile phones. Apparently, a ban on women giving ayurvedic massages to men and vice versa, will soon be in place, as the government feels that it is a cover for ‘sex tourism’.
Many people probably thought that the Sushma Swaraj brand of puritanism would be shown the door when the NDA government lost power. The former I&B minister had been more concerned about the necklines of Doordarshan news readers and the risqué fare on Fashion TV (though, one closed-door meeting with FTV president Michel Adams was enough to give a clean chit to the channel, even if the programming remained unchanged) than issues like streamlining the chaotic industry. More authoritarian infringements on personal liberty have been passed, however, over the last few months under the Congress government.
Health minister Anbumani Ramadoss’s attempt to ban smoking in films is one such. ``Seventy six per cent of the 800-900 movies made in India had smoking scenes,`` he said. ``I have definite information that the tobacco industry directly pays cinema stars to smoke in films.`` Anil Kapoor, who has ``smoked in several films``, denied he had ever been paid me to endorse a brand. ``The ban would mean that certain stories cannot be made into films, such as a film on Winston Churchill,`` said actor Shah Rukh Khan. ``I do not think youngsters take to smoking because film stars are shown smoking in films.``
Kamal Mitra Chinoy, sociologist at the Jawaharlal Nehru University, feels that Ramadoss’s worries would have been better directed to the Aids pandemic or the resistant strains of tuberculosis. ``The whole effort [towards banning smoking in films] seems based on the presumption that individuals lack judgment and that the state knows what is best for them,`` he said. ``The whole process has been undemocratic. There was no discussion with the ministries, the censor board or film-makers.`` Tarot card reader Mita Bhan suggests a ``statutory warning on screen when a star lights up on screen``.
The campaign against tobacco picked up momentum in the late 90s with a spate of rulings in Delhi, Goa and Kerala. It reached a crescendo when Sushma took over the health ministry and got her colleagues to ban tobacco advertisements. Following it came restrictions on gutka and paan consumption. Y.P. Chhibbar, general secretary of the People’s Union of Civil Liberties, is now planning to mobilise public opinion through seminars and meetings on what he calls the ``whims of ministers.... people who are new to political power trying to push their way up at the expense of personal liberties.``
Sanjeev Bhargava, member of the Censor Board, says that while ``in India, we tend to bind people in a code of conduct, countries with liberal laws and an open society have actually only prospered``. He feels that we need to enforce the laws that are in place. Chinoy agrees. ``The only kind of moral policing we need is an honest cop,`` he said.
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#98 Posted by veeresh on July 10, 2005 11:45:25 am
Ah, finally we have Arvind Gaur himself on these interacts, with his tips on how to make interacts more ``meaningful``.
(I love these intellectuals, making a virtue out of poverty while aspiring to wealth.)
Gaur ji, why don`t you simply place the script on the Internet as well, along with the editorials? You and I know about editorials, I write a few myself every now and then.
For arguments sake, Mr. Gaur, let us say your freedom of speech extended to lesser mortals like me, too. And for whatever reason, which is our personal business and something I am entitled to, I along with say a dozen others landed up at your theatre, with nothing but our loud voices, and indulged in some freedom of speech of our own while your play was going on.
Now you can not stop me because I have freedom of speech too, right?
You can`t throw me out because if you touch me it becomes an assault.
The theatre staff and other patrons better not touch me either, for similar reasons.
So what do you do, Gaur ji?
You call the police. Right?
Kuch samajh aa raahaa hai?
So before calling us a ``police state`` and talking about ``bans`` that do not exist, put your script up, and let us have a debate on the contents.
The law, Arvind Gaur ji, is supposed to be equal for all of us. So is freedom of speech.
And if it extends to your friends calling me a North Indian Gutter or similar on this website, well, so be it, why should I object. But then you please be prepared to listen to some of my friends during your ``play`` too.
+++
I am so touched that you feel the pain that Mr. Jinnah must have suffered. But was the pain you felt more or same or less than the pain that millions of others on both sides of the border suffered at around the same time in history?
No, Mr. Gaur, you didn`t. You`re an insensitive person, trampling over that pain without even giving them a chance. And that`s where I come in.
+++
Let us see and discuss and debate your script, Mr. Gaur.
And then, using the same freedom of speech, Mr. Gaur, that both of us cherish so much, we can carry the debate further.
+++
(I love these intellectuals, making a virtue out of poverty while aspiring to wealth.)
Gaur ji, why don`t you simply place the script on the Internet as well, along with the editorials? You and I know about editorials, I write a few myself every now and then.
For arguments sake, Mr. Gaur, let us say your freedom of speech extended to lesser mortals like me, too. And for whatever reason, which is our personal business and something I am entitled to, I along with say a dozen others landed up at your theatre, with nothing but our loud voices, and indulged in some freedom of speech of our own while your play was going on.
Now you can not stop me because I have freedom of speech too, right?
You can`t throw me out because if you touch me it becomes an assault.
The theatre staff and other patrons better not touch me either, for similar reasons.
So what do you do, Gaur ji?
You call the police. Right?
Kuch samajh aa raahaa hai?
So before calling us a ``police state`` and talking about ``bans`` that do not exist, put your script up, and let us have a debate on the contents.
The law, Arvind Gaur ji, is supposed to be equal for all of us. So is freedom of speech.
And if it extends to your friends calling me a North Indian Gutter or similar on this website, well, so be it, why should I object. But then you please be prepared to listen to some of my friends during your ``play`` too.
+++
I am so touched that you feel the pain that Mr. Jinnah must have suffered. But was the pain you felt more or same or less than the pain that millions of others on both sides of the border suffered at around the same time in history?
No, Mr. Gaur, you didn`t. You`re an insensitive person, trampling over that pain without even giving them a chance. And that`s where I come in.
+++
Let us see and discuss and debate your script, Mr. Gaur.
And then, using the same freedom of speech, Mr. Gaur, that both of us cherish so much, we can carry the debate further.
+++
#99 Posted by arvind on July 10, 2005 12:41:42 pm
THANKS MR. VEERESH,
YES, i post these articles to make the interacts more wider & obiously more meaningful....
about script....
u can buy it from any book shop within 2 weeks.
about inernet...
without writer & publishers permission we cant place any script on internet.
about ur shouting in my play...
( according u , it may be for the argument sake but i am taking it very very seriously )
so ,most welcome dear, if u have any problem with my work i am ready to stop the play & i wl listen to u. ..any time ...i am serious ( this statement is not for the sake of argument, u can try any time).
we always respect our audience `s point of view.
for instance , in Mahesh Dattani `s play Final Solutions we always hv a discussion after the play.
even in my latest solo plays Pinki Virani`s Bitter chocolate & Untitled solo ( both solo by Lushin Dubey ) and Manjula Padmanbhan`s
Hidden Fires & Bhishma Sahani`s Madhavi ( both by actress Rashi Bunny) ,
we did the same in Mumbai, Channai, Calcutta, Jaipur, Delhi etc.
we r trying to develop dialouge between actor & viewers.
pls come any time in our rehearsals, its near ITO, New Delhi.
u r most welcome to watch our play Final Solutions at Nehru Centre, Mumbai in august last week & be a part of open discussion /house.
with warm regards
arvind gaur
YES, i post these articles to make the interacts more wider & obiously more meaningful....
about script....
u can buy it from any book shop within 2 weeks.
about inernet...
without writer & publishers permission we cant place any script on internet.
about ur shouting in my play...
( according u , it may be for the argument sake but i am taking it very very seriously )
so ,most welcome dear, if u have any problem with my work i am ready to stop the play & i wl listen to u. ..any time ...i am serious ( this statement is not for the sake of argument, u can try any time).
we always respect our audience `s point of view.
for instance , in Mahesh Dattani `s play Final Solutions we always hv a discussion after the play.
even in my latest solo plays Pinki Virani`s Bitter chocolate & Untitled solo ( both solo by Lushin Dubey ) and Manjula Padmanbhan`s
Hidden Fires & Bhishma Sahani`s Madhavi ( both by actress Rashi Bunny) ,
we did the same in Mumbai, Channai, Calcutta, Jaipur, Delhi etc.
we r trying to develop dialouge between actor & viewers.
pls come any time in our rehearsals, its near ITO, New Delhi.
u r most welcome to watch our play Final Solutions at Nehru Centre, Mumbai in august last week & be a part of open discussion /house.
with warm regards
arvind gaur
#100 Posted by sanguine on July 10, 2005 12:49:12 pm
Sorry. I don’t share the same gene pool as the Delhi Police. And I don’t think foolishness and cowardice are genetic, it comes from upbringing and community and social conditioning.
I think you once again reacted to my posting without even reading it properly. I wish to have no dialogue with you, until you learn to stop making assumptions.
The only reason I made a posting earlier today was because I thought that the people here need to get some facts clear. We at Asmita were shocked to read the crass language and the crude attitude people have for artists and directors in this city in more than 5 different postings by different people.
I am an ASMITA member. I really don`t have time or else I would have answered all your 9 points. But with your latest posting, I think I will change my mind. I feel I would be constantly repeating what I have already written and it`s falling to deaf ears.
anyhow, I think most people, including you are so presumptious and judgmental that you can`t really see the actual fact. Most people have only related the work of art to a political event. People have made films on Hitler, Osama, or even count Dracula, but the very Indians who enjoy such movies don`t want to revisit their own history.
In the name of freedom of speech you are freely calumnizing, and passing rude judgments about a group of people and even gloating on it. People even go to such lengths as to make fun of the names of the members of Asmita.
The Police found nothing objectionable in the script. They just deferred it on a whim. And that is all the whole point is. Got it?
The commissioner himself has said, ``we haven`t put a ban on the play, we have just deferred it...`` and then when we ask ``why``,... they go numb or cite vague excuses.
SO FAR THE POLICE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO GIVE ONE VALID REASON FOR THE DEFERANCE.
SO FAR MOST FUNDAMENTAL GROUPS ARE AWARE ABOUT THE PLAY AND SOME ARE EVEN AWARE ABOUT THE CONTENTS. BUT NONE HAVE OBJECTED TO IT.
The debate in not on the script. The debate is on strangling art in the city.
And what `trampling on pain` are you talking about??
you don`t even know the contents and you are assuming that we are trampling on the pain of people???
I am a second generation victim of partition. And there are many like us in the group. WHAT makes you think that Arvind Gaur or Narendra Mohan have done such a thing?? where are you geting this information??
And why are you spreding rumours about somthing you don`t know about???
What right do you, to say that the play is being insensitive to the victims of partition???
As for your information. the right to print the script it with the author Dr.Narendra Mohan. And any insult directed at the scripts is not directed at ASMITA or ARVIND GAUR ALone but to Dr. Narendra Mohan. So we will not put up the script. The script which is now getting made into a play will be staged and then you can come and use your loud voices to your content. ANd get as many as you can.
I dare you to do so, and not leave the auditorium with a profound silence.(as most of our viewers have so far done).
I think you once again reacted to my posting without even reading it properly. I wish to have no dialogue with you, until you learn to stop making assumptions.
The only reason I made a posting earlier today was because I thought that the people here need to get some facts clear. We at Asmita were shocked to read the crass language and the crude attitude people have for artists and directors in this city in more than 5 different postings by different people.
I am an ASMITA member. I really don`t have time or else I would have answered all your 9 points. But with your latest posting, I think I will change my mind. I feel I would be constantly repeating what I have already written and it`s falling to deaf ears.
anyhow, I think most people, including you are so presumptious and judgmental that you can`t really see the actual fact. Most people have only related the work of art to a political event. People have made films on Hitler, Osama, or even count Dracula, but the very Indians who enjoy such movies don`t want to revisit their own history.
In the name of freedom of speech you are freely calumnizing, and passing rude judgments about a group of people and even gloating on it. People even go to such lengths as to make fun of the names of the members of Asmita.
The Police found nothing objectionable in the script. They just deferred it on a whim. And that is all the whole point is. Got it?
The commissioner himself has said, ``we haven`t put a ban on the play, we have just deferred it...`` and then when we ask ``why``,... they go numb or cite vague excuses.
SO FAR THE POLICE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO GIVE ONE VALID REASON FOR THE DEFERANCE.
SO FAR MOST FUNDAMENTAL GROUPS ARE AWARE ABOUT THE PLAY AND SOME ARE EVEN AWARE ABOUT THE CONTENTS. BUT NONE HAVE OBJECTED TO IT.
The debate in not on the script. The debate is on strangling art in the city.
And what `trampling on pain` are you talking about??
you don`t even know the contents and you are assuming that we are trampling on the pain of people???
I am a second generation victim of partition. And there are many like us in the group. WHAT makes you think that Arvind Gaur or Narendra Mohan have done such a thing?? where are you geting this information??
And why are you spreding rumours about somthing you don`t know about???
What right do you, to say that the play is being insensitive to the victims of partition???
As for your information. the right to print the script it with the author Dr.Narendra Mohan. And any insult directed at the scripts is not directed at ASMITA or ARVIND GAUR ALone but to Dr. Narendra Mohan. So we will not put up the script. The script which is now getting made into a play will be staged and then you can come and use your loud voices to your content. ANd get as many as you can.
I dare you to do so, and not leave the auditorium with a profound silence.(as most of our viewers have so far done).
#101 Posted by sanguine on July 10, 2005 1:26:46 pm
dear drlokraj,
I think the only sane and mature and non judgemental posting that has come into this forum so far, was from you. We really appreciate your viewpoint, which we find is very mature and progressive and not marinated in hatred for 60 yrs.
(The hatred between the two countries has been created by the politicians of both sides to hide their own blunders and people have been deliberately kept blind about the facts.)
Its true, but now many people can face upto it
(To an average Indian, Jinnah has been made to be believed as a villain and likevise all Hindus have been turned into hateful creatures on the otherside. )
You are so right and that is why we the children of free India do not want to carry on this burden of hatred. I don`t hate pakistanis and don`t want my children to live a life of hatred. this is what is the msg that we want to pass on to the next generation.
THAT to heal first we need to forgive and to forgive we need to know the truth. Otherwise what is the use of such hypocrisy as buses and trains connecting the countries. If Jinnah was a villain to Indians, then I can say that Nehru and Gandhi were villains to bengalis. Because we still feel senstivie about the mysterious deaths of Bose and S.P.Mukherjee. Does that mean that we will hate our own father of nation? No. We have to learn to forgive to forget. Or else we will remain enemies forever.
(Now when people are becoming aware of the facts and also the governments have been forced to talk of peace initiatives and exchange of trade,culture,tourism,art etc.,such acts as banning a play indicates that either they (rulers) dont have faith in what they are doing(improving the bilateral relationships) or they are just idiots of the highest order who donot know that in this age of IT, no information can be held back from people. Such acts will actually raise curiosity and urge people to know what it was. )
That is what is happening and people are reading so much abouit Jinnah. I myself have changed my views from nonchalance to acceptance.
Somebody rightly pointed out that ``Any society which is weak in it`s faith bans artistic introspection because it has no trust in it`s intelligent adults.``
(Whether Jinnah was a villain and what were Gandhi, Nehru and Patel doing in those fateful days, let people know it and decide for themselves. People have right to know and now they have the means as well.........they will surely ask questions. )
Even if he was a villain, we have all the right as artists to analyse his character. ANd that is what the play is all about.
To me he was nothing other than a name in the historybooks, as infamous as Aurangzeb, as awe-inspiring as Hitler or fearful as Osama. Yet I want to know about them. And not keep living in fear like they are some unsolved mysteries, like the Lochness monster.
In the play he is more like Macbeth, or Othello or even King Lear, Hamlet or Ceasar. Where an ambitious protagonist falls for his one major flaw, and the antagonist takes over. The play has glimpses of a classic tragedy.
And believe me with the reaction of the system to this play, we are now determined to dig deeper and learn more and more about Jinnah.
What is it about this man that the police force of the capital city of a free country still fears his name after 60 yrs of his death. Some smart alecs even suggested, ``change the name and stage it.`` like the system was a chile which could be fooled with a lollypop.
(Delhi has been notorious for its problems with artists because artists speak the truth.I am sure people have not still forgotten Safdar Hashmi and his theatre group.)
Police needs an excuse to divert our minds from the increasing crime rate on women. So they start on a different agenda. But everytime it is a minority community.
We women of delhi are treated like a second-class citizen. And so are the artists.
I think the only sane and mature and non judgemental posting that has come into this forum so far, was from you. We really appreciate your viewpoint, which we find is very mature and progressive and not marinated in hatred for 60 yrs.
(The hatred between the two countries has been created by the politicians of both sides to hide their own blunders and people have been deliberately kept blind about the facts.)
Its true, but now many people can face upto it
(To an average Indian, Jinnah has been made to be believed as a villain and likevise all Hindus have been turned into hateful creatures on the otherside. )
You are so right and that is why we the children of free India do not want to carry on this burden of hatred. I don`t hate pakistanis and don`t want my children to live a life of hatred. this is what is the msg that we want to pass on to the next generation.
THAT to heal first we need to forgive and to forgive we need to know the truth. Otherwise what is the use of such hypocrisy as buses and trains connecting the countries. If Jinnah was a villain to Indians, then I can say that Nehru and Gandhi were villains to bengalis. Because we still feel senstivie about the mysterious deaths of Bose and S.P.Mukherjee. Does that mean that we will hate our own father of nation? No. We have to learn to forgive to forget. Or else we will remain enemies forever.
(Now when people are becoming aware of the facts and also the governments have been forced to talk of peace initiatives and exchange of trade,culture,tourism,art etc.,such acts as banning a play indicates that either they (rulers) dont have faith in what they are doing(improving the bilateral relationships) or they are just idiots of the highest order who donot know that in this age of IT, no information can be held back from people. Such acts will actually raise curiosity and urge people to know what it was. )
That is what is happening and people are reading so much abouit Jinnah. I myself have changed my views from nonchalance to acceptance.
Somebody rightly pointed out that ``Any society which is weak in it`s faith bans artistic introspection because it has no trust in it`s intelligent adults.``
(Whether Jinnah was a villain and what were Gandhi, Nehru and Patel doing in those fateful days, let people know it and decide for themselves. People have right to know and now they have the means as well.........they will surely ask questions. )
Even if he was a villain, we have all the right as artists to analyse his character. ANd that is what the play is all about.
To me he was nothing other than a name in the historybooks, as infamous as Aurangzeb, as awe-inspiring as Hitler or fearful as Osama. Yet I want to know about them. And not keep living in fear like they are some unsolved mysteries, like the Lochness monster.
In the play he is more like Macbeth, or Othello or even King Lear, Hamlet or Ceasar. Where an ambitious protagonist falls for his one major flaw, and the antagonist takes over. The play has glimpses of a classic tragedy.
And believe me with the reaction of the system to this play, we are now determined to dig deeper and learn more and more about Jinnah.
What is it about this man that the police force of the capital city of a free country still fears his name after 60 yrs of his death. Some smart alecs even suggested, ``change the name and stage it.`` like the system was a chile which could be fooled with a lollypop.
(Delhi has been notorious for its problems with artists because artists speak the truth.I am sure people have not still forgotten Safdar Hashmi and his theatre group.)
Police needs an excuse to divert our minds from the increasing crime rate on women. So they start on a different agenda. But everytime it is a minority community.
We women of delhi are treated like a second-class citizen. And so are the artists.
#102 Posted by ajeya on July 10, 2005 2:14:47 pm
Re: #101 by sanguine
[I think the only sane and mature and non judgemental posting that has come into this forum so far, was from you.]
So the other postings are not sane and also immature?
Very non-judgemental of you.
:-)
[I think the only sane and mature and non judgemental posting that has come into this forum so far, was from you.]
So the other postings are not sane and also immature?
Very non-judgemental of you.
:-)
#103 Posted by ana on July 10, 2005 2:50:17 pm
i suspect that sanguine has only read what he or she wanted to read, and disregarded the rest.
isn`t that what most of us do here at chowk?
why should newcomers be any different? :)
p. s. insanity is something i will plead guilty to, but immaturity. . . ? :)
isn`t that what most of us do here at chowk?
why should newcomers be any different? :)
p. s. insanity is something i will plead guilty to, but immaturity. . . ? :)
#104 Posted by veeresh on July 10, 2005 7:47:45 pm
sanguine/100 - please let us know if you wish to discuss the contents of the play (which we do not know about so we are at a disadvantage) or about freedom of speech in India. Crass language and crude attitudes are a matter of opinion, and both have been used by theatre-practitioners including Arvind Gaur to great effect, more power to their skills.
If the debate is about ``strangling of art in the city``, then may I suggest you please look around you some more? Much of what goes on in the we breathe air of India is free, one play here and there does not make a difference if it is delayed a bit. That`s life and stop behaving like a spoilt child denied his/her chocolates.
Incidentally, your refusal to put the script up, is it as as an individual or as ASMITA?
+++
arvind/99, these articles and more were freely available on google. The script, unfortunately, is still not available anywhere.
Those who want freedom of speech, Sir, do not hide behind ``copyright``. In any case what sort of ``copyright`` prevents a play from being commercially published, at a cost? The way you are using ``freedom of speech`` here is selective, and in itself trampling on my rights.
You still don`t understand, do you? Please don`t insult me by trying to say that I come and shout at your play, please let us have some understanding here that both of us can use freedom of speech to intelligent ends to prove a point.
So again, if we landed up at your play with our rights to freedom of speech like yours and started performing from the seats, well, that`s freedom of speech, right? A dozen of us come with nothing but our voices, no electronic aids or anything, and start performing very loudly from different parts of the hall a sit-in-seat version of any of Shakespeare`s (published) plays, not to discuss it with you but for the sake of pure anarchy, then would you uphold our rights for freedom of speech or would you call the police to throw us out?
+++
I tell you one thing, Mr Gaur :- you don`t know about the denial of freedom of speech in the real world out there, which is why you find it so easy to talk about the supposed denial in India. That is my argument with you, if you can see it.
Freedom of speech is not only about theatre and media, or the baba-log/baby-log putting on make-believe war-paint and jumping up and down on a stage, I hope you appreciate.
If the debate is about ``strangling of art in the city``, then may I suggest you please look around you some more? Much of what goes on in the we breathe air of India is free, one play here and there does not make a difference if it is delayed a bit. That`s life and stop behaving like a spoilt child denied his/her chocolates.
Incidentally, your refusal to put the script up, is it as as an individual or as ASMITA?
+++
arvind/99, these articles and more were freely available on google. The script, unfortunately, is still not available anywhere.
Those who want freedom of speech, Sir, do not hide behind ``copyright``. In any case what sort of ``copyright`` prevents a play from being commercially published, at a cost? The way you are using ``freedom of speech`` here is selective, and in itself trampling on my rights.
You still don`t understand, do you? Please don`t insult me by trying to say that I come and shout at your play, please let us have some understanding here that both of us can use freedom of speech to intelligent ends to prove a point.
So again, if we landed up at your play with our rights to freedom of speech like yours and started performing from the seats, well, that`s freedom of speech, right? A dozen of us come with nothing but our voices, no electronic aids or anything, and start performing very loudly from different parts of the hall a sit-in-seat version of any of Shakespeare`s (published) plays, not to discuss it with you but for the sake of pure anarchy, then would you uphold our rights for freedom of speech or would you call the police to throw us out?
+++
I tell you one thing, Mr Gaur :- you don`t know about the denial of freedom of speech in the real world out there, which is why you find it so easy to talk about the supposed denial in India. That is my argument with you, if you can see it.
Freedom of speech is not only about theatre and media, or the baba-log/baby-log putting on make-believe war-paint and jumping up and down on a stage, I hope you appreciate.
#105 Posted by KaalChakra on July 10, 2005 9:19:56 pm
Dear Asmitans
(1) This resident of north Indian gutters has only one gutterish message to offer to you ladies and gentlemen.
- Stay away from the trap of self-righteousness. Do not assume that the world owes you anything merely because your objective is noble.
(2) There is a school of thought forcefully arguing that Asmita is a mistake of one`s mind. Would any of you agree? Disagree? Could you be mistaken?
(1) This resident of north Indian gutters has only one gutterish message to offer to you ladies and gentlemen.
- Stay away from the trap of self-righteousness. Do not assume that the world owes you anything merely because your objective is noble.
(2) There is a school of thought forcefully arguing that Asmita is a mistake of one`s mind. Would any of you agree? Disagree? Could you be mistaken?
#106 Posted by sanguine on July 10, 2005 10:39:24 pm
ANA and Ajeya
The terms immature and insane were targetted at the people who were exactly that in this forum. I never took names neither did I refer to their postings(you presumed that I did) . So I don`t see why you reacted so sharply to it.
For your information I am not a new comer, (that`s another presumption). This forum is different from a chatroom. We were here to discuss a serious issue, but had unwelcome guests, who were, spreading rumours laced with communal feelings, about the play, about the group, the director and everything to do with Jinnah. There are people who are still making slanderous remarks and comments on ASMITA and it`s members. Some have even started threatening. I have to tell them that they are creating more communal tension than the play or the script could.
As for drlokraj -- I still feel that he was and is the only person who has, understod the real motive of our posting and has understood the real problem. And he made a comment without making any slanderous remark on any one or passing any judgment on ASMITA, or without threatening anybody. So I respect his view, and we are still looking for some more people like him who could discuss the issue without creating tension and mudslinging at each other.
The terms immature and insane were targetted at the people who were exactly that in this forum. I never took names neither did I refer to their postings(you presumed that I did) . So I don`t see why you reacted so sharply to it.
For your information I am not a new comer, (that`s another presumption). This forum is different from a chatroom. We were here to discuss a serious issue, but had unwelcome guests, who were, spreading rumours laced with communal feelings, about the play, about the group, the director and everything to do with Jinnah. There are people who are still making slanderous remarks and comments on ASMITA and it`s members. Some have even started threatening. I have to tell them that they are creating more communal tension than the play or the script could.
As for drlokraj -- I still feel that he was and is the only person who has, understod the real motive of our posting and has understood the real problem. And he made a comment without making any slanderous remark on any one or passing any judgment on ASMITA, or without threatening anybody. So I respect his view, and we are still looking for some more people like him who could discuss the issue without creating tension and mudslinging at each other.
#107 Posted by sanguine on July 10, 2005 11:48:02 pm
veeresh Re: # 104
I told you earlier that we were not here to discuss the script or merely freedom speech. We will welcome a discussion on ``strangling Art forms in the city`` and ``Infringing on the fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` in the name of moral policing. If you find that your topic, then you are welcome. That is our agenda, and we don`t want to deviate from it for one person. Thank you anyway.
And the decision to not put up the script till it is published came from both Arvindji and ASMITA. We respect the author and his right on his piece of work. The idea of putting the msg here on this forum is not to discuss the script. It was and will be, to discuss the police highhanded attitude on a simple play by a small group of artists, for no rhyme or reason.
You are right, one play here or there is not so important. It would only make as much difference to anybody as an unnamed road. Why then people are boiling their blood and spending sleepless nights to stop it. Obviously there is more to it than meets the eye. I guess you will understand it in some time.
I have denied a debate with you, only because I think you need to see or read the play first. I have interacted with people who have kept an open mind for debate and discussion. But you have already chosen to believe that we are a bunch of nerds or rather spoiled kids or babalog/babylog donning war paint and jumping on the stage or whatever, and it seems we have already hurt the sentiments of people across the borders!?! So no point wasting my time to make you see the point.
AND we are not at all staging the play to ``prove any point``. As the Delhi police and now some interactors have presumed on their own.
Our Play is not targeted at creating anarchy, or hurting sentiments or breaking law and order or abusing anybody’s fundamental rights. It is an intense play of a Man’s life and work and how he transforms from Mr.Jinaah to Quaid-e-azam Jinnah. And we are still clueless, how it could scare the police so much. It didn`t even scare the fundamentalists.
And also the other reason is
you have repeatedly threatened to create anarchy at the play I quote -- ``if we landed up at your play with our rights to freedom of speech like yours and started performing from the seats, well, that’s freedom of speech, right? A dozen of us come with nothing but our voices, no electronic aids or anything, and start performing very loudly from different parts of the hall a sit-in-seat version of any of Shakespeare’s (published) plays, not to discuss it with you but for the sake of pure anarchy, then would you uphold our rights for freedom of speech or would you call the police to throw us out?``
In this scenario I already see a sword in your hand. THAT IS THE ATTITUDE I GOT FROM MANY OTHERS IN THIS FORUM.
And we don’t engage into debate with biased people until they are open in their minds and respect other people. A debate is not a war. And war is not our motive.
If people are taking out their personal vendetta against ASMITA, then it’s entirely their point of view. It doesn`t hamper our move.
I think you are totally on tangent from our issue and you are constantly harping on infuriating statements (read warcries). Neither do I have time for that, nor will I not go down to that level to say ``who you are and what paint you have put on your face``.
au-revoir
I told you earlier that we were not here to discuss the script or merely freedom speech. We will welcome a discussion on ``strangling Art forms in the city`` and ``Infringing on the fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` in the name of moral policing. If you find that your topic, then you are welcome. That is our agenda, and we don`t want to deviate from it for one person. Thank you anyway.
And the decision to not put up the script till it is published came from both Arvindji and ASMITA. We respect the author and his right on his piece of work. The idea of putting the msg here on this forum is not to discuss the script. It was and will be, to discuss the police highhanded attitude on a simple play by a small group of artists, for no rhyme or reason.
You are right, one play here or there is not so important. It would only make as much difference to anybody as an unnamed road. Why then people are boiling their blood and spending sleepless nights to stop it. Obviously there is more to it than meets the eye. I guess you will understand it in some time.
I have denied a debate with you, only because I think you need to see or read the play first. I have interacted with people who have kept an open mind for debate and discussion. But you have already chosen to believe that we are a bunch of nerds or rather spoiled kids or babalog/babylog donning war paint and jumping on the stage or whatever, and it seems we have already hurt the sentiments of people across the borders!?! So no point wasting my time to make you see the point.
AND we are not at all staging the play to ``prove any point``. As the Delhi police and now some interactors have presumed on their own.
Our Play is not targeted at creating anarchy, or hurting sentiments or breaking law and order or abusing anybody’s fundamental rights. It is an intense play of a Man’s life and work and how he transforms from Mr.Jinaah to Quaid-e-azam Jinnah. And we are still clueless, how it could scare the police so much. It didn`t even scare the fundamentalists.
And also the other reason is
you have repeatedly threatened to create anarchy at the play I quote -- ``if we landed up at your play with our rights to freedom of speech like yours and started performing from the seats, well, that’s freedom of speech, right? A dozen of us come with nothing but our voices, no electronic aids or anything, and start performing very loudly from different parts of the hall a sit-in-seat version of any of Shakespeare’s (published) plays, not to discuss it with you but for the sake of pure anarchy, then would you uphold our rights for freedom of speech or would you call the police to throw us out?``
In this scenario I already see a sword in your hand. THAT IS THE ATTITUDE I GOT FROM MANY OTHERS IN THIS FORUM.
And we don’t engage into debate with biased people until they are open in their minds and respect other people. A debate is not a war. And war is not our motive.
If people are taking out their personal vendetta against ASMITA, then it’s entirely their point of view. It doesn`t hamper our move.
I think you are totally on tangent from our issue and you are constantly harping on infuriating statements (read warcries). Neither do I have time for that, nor will I not go down to that level to say ``who you are and what paint you have put on your face``.
au-revoir
#108 Posted by veeresh on July 10, 2005 11:57:23 pm
Sanguine/106 - thank you for your rather un-sanguine explanation on why you choose to ``target`` some people. Is it, possibly, that your concept of freedom of speech as applicable for you yourself is different from the freedom of speech you expect for and from others?
Now let me explain chowk to you slightly better. If you will look around, it says ``at chowk, all are welcome to read, write and think``. Something like a real-life chowk.
As of now, the ``motive`` of your posting is still not clear.
If it is about Indo-Pak relationships, it appears as though you are trying to say that only your views should prevail and others views are not even open to discussion?
If it is about freedom of spoeech. then it appears as though you are trying to set different standards for different people, ASMITA is entitled to freedom of speech but we aren`t.
If it is about monetary loss, then it appears as though ASMITA is available to the highest bidder, shall we put out a plate for Rs 35k since that was the sum mentioned?
If it is about slanderous remarks and comments, then believe me, ASMITA as a theatre group does not have the copyright on it, though they do it quite well and quite often, and as I have said before, more power to Arvind Gaur.
if it is about people who think similar to you to engage in discussions with, then why have a discussion, uh-oh, I forgot, that is how the Communist Left-wing think, discussion must proceed along specific pre-ordained lines only, right? No, not right, left.
You, dear separate gene-pool Bengali lady Sanguine, appear to be terribly confused. Please decide the goal-posts you want to adhere to or be prepared for the others to shift goal-posts, too.
Lal Salaam and all that jazz to you, too.
Now let me explain chowk to you slightly better. If you will look around, it says ``at chowk, all are welcome to read, write and think``. Something like a real-life chowk.
As of now, the ``motive`` of your posting is still not clear.
If it is about Indo-Pak relationships, it appears as though you are trying to say that only your views should prevail and others views are not even open to discussion?
If it is about freedom of spoeech. then it appears as though you are trying to set different standards for different people, ASMITA is entitled to freedom of speech but we aren`t.
If it is about monetary loss, then it appears as though ASMITA is available to the highest bidder, shall we put out a plate for Rs 35k since that was the sum mentioned?
If it is about slanderous remarks and comments, then believe me, ASMITA as a theatre group does not have the copyright on it, though they do it quite well and quite often, and as I have said before, more power to Arvind Gaur.
if it is about people who think similar to you to engage in discussions with, then why have a discussion, uh-oh, I forgot, that is how the Communist Left-wing think, discussion must proceed along specific pre-ordained lines only, right? No, not right, left.
You, dear separate gene-pool Bengali lady Sanguine, appear to be terribly confused. Please decide the goal-posts you want to adhere to or be prepared for the others to shift goal-posts, too.
Lal Salaam and all that jazz to you, too.
#109 Posted by veeresh on July 11, 2005 12:24:26 am
Sanguine/107:
you said: ``. . .told you earlier that we were not here to discuss the script or merely freedom speech. We will welcome a discussion on ``strangling Art forms in the city`` and ``Infringing on the fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` in the name of moral policing. If you find that your topic, then you are welcome. That is our agenda, and we don`t want to deviate from it for one person. Thank you anyway.``
I say: Is your fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` excluding mine? Is your anarchy of not placing a script in advance different from mine? You are without a leg on this one, take a look.
In addition, if you were not here to discuss the script, then why did you place all those homilies about Indo-Pak relationships there?
India is a free country, and my entitlements are as much as are yours, so get that straight. To start with.
So if you want absolute freedom of speech, well live with others` expectations too.
And if you want some elements of society based etiquettes, then expect them from others.
But you can`t have freedom of speech for ASMITA and chains for others.
Or is that what you REALLY want?
+++
you said: ``And the decision to not put up the script till it is published came from both Arvindji and ASMITA. We respect the author and his right on his piece of work. The idea of putting the msg here on this forum is not to discuss the script. It was and will be, to discuss the police highhanded attitude on a simple play by a small group of artists, for no rhyme or reason. ``
I say: Fine, you don`t want to publish, then don`t do so. But you have to respect the Constitution of India, which is paramount. Read it carefully, and see what it says about exactly this subject of Freedom of Speech.
And can you specify the police high-handedness? Do you even know what police high-handedness for no rhyme or reason is? Of course you do, Arvind has done a few plays on that subject too, but do you really know?
+++
I would love to read the play. But you are not permitting that. And therein lies the conflict.
You fix it, dear Lady.
And interim, I have not seen any public comment or statement by ASMITA or ARVIND GAUR saying that they have denied publication of the script.
Matter of fact, if this was Maharashtra, I could, under the Maharashtra Right to Information Act, legitimately ask you and the Police for an advance copy of the script. And both parties would HAVE to provide it to me, at 50 paise per page photocopied.
As you may know, in Delhi, the Delhi Police come directly under the Central government, and I can`t use the DRTI Act to ask them for the script.
But that`s changing, too.
+++
There is no sword in my hand. Understand what I am saying.
You don`t want the police to step into the picture for reasons of YOUR freedom of speech. But if I exercise the rights to MY freedom of speech then you will call the same police, right? Read Mahatma Gandhi and learn agitation, instead of just getting agitated.
And I am willing to run that as a test case, if you so desire. Let us see how YOUR freedom of speech is different from MY freedom of speech.
Not just 12 Shakespeare spouting city-intelligensia, but maybe some Baud tribal singers, bhajan mandli from Sonepat and Goan fisherfolk, too.
+++
Your freedom of speech is great but what about the rest of us in Indian society?
Veeresh
you said: ``. . .told you earlier that we were not here to discuss the script or merely freedom speech. We will welcome a discussion on ``strangling Art forms in the city`` and ``Infringing on the fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` in the name of moral policing. If you find that your topic, then you are welcome. That is our agenda, and we don`t want to deviate from it for one person. Thank you anyway.``
I say: Is your fundamental right of freedom of artistic expression`` excluding mine? Is your anarchy of not placing a script in advance different from mine? You are without a leg on this one, take a look.
In addition, if you were not here to discuss the script, then why did you place all those homilies about Indo-Pak relationships there?
India is a free country, and my entitlements are as much as are yours, so get that straight. To start with.
So if you want absolute freedom of speech, well live with others` expectations too.
And if you want some elements of society based etiquettes, then expect them from others.
But you can`t have freedom of speech for ASMITA and chains for others.
Or is that what you REALLY want?
+++
you said: ``And the decision to not put up the script till it is published came from both Arvindji and ASMITA. We respect the author and his right on his piece of work. The idea of putting the msg here on this forum is not to discuss the script. It was and will be, to discuss the police highhanded attitude on a simple play by a small group of artists, for no rhyme or reason. ``
I say: Fine, you don`t want to publish, then don`t do so. But you have to respect the Constitution of India, which is paramount. Read it carefully, and see what it says about exactly this subject of Freedom of Speech.
And can you specify the police high-handedness? Do you even know what police high-handedness for no rhyme or reason is? Of course you do, Arvind has done a few plays on that subject too, but do you really know?
+++
I would love to read the play. But you are not permitting that. And therein lies the conflict.
You fix it, dear Lady.
And interim, I have not seen any public comment or statement by ASMITA or ARVIND GAUR saying that they have denied publication of the script.
Matter of fact, if this was Maharashtra, I could, under the Maharashtra Right to Information Act, legitimately ask you and the Police for an advance copy of the script. And both parties would HAVE to provide it to me, at 50 paise per page photocopied.
As you may know, in Delhi, the Delhi Police come directly under the Central government, and I can`t use the DRTI Act to ask them for the script.
But that`s changing, too.
+++
There is no sword in my hand. Understand what I am saying.
You don`t want the police to step into the picture for reasons of YOUR freedom of speech. But if I exercise the rights to MY freedom of speech then you will call the same police, right? Read Mahatma Gandhi and learn agitation, instead of just getting agitated.
And I am willing to run that as a test case, if you so desire. Let us see how YOUR freedom of speech is different from MY freedom of speech.
Not just 12 Shakespeare spouting city-intelligensia, but maybe some Baud tribal singers, bhajan mandli from Sonepat and Goan fisherfolk, too.
+++
Your freedom of speech is great but what about the rest of us in Indian society?
Veeresh
#110 Posted by cayenne on July 11, 2005 5:17:28 am
Re: # 107
`Conpucius` say be wise and see the writing on the wall.Ordinary citizen (of India) who goes about his business, a microcosm of which appears on this forum also, DOES NOT want to see play about Jinnah.Enough said.Let controversial playwright of this play, lick his wounds, go back and write another play, less offending, and , if it is good, the public will watch it.Let him not incite artists and the public for his own selfish ends. The public will have the last word on `free speech`.Not those among us who will take advantage of it.
`Conpucius` say be wise and see the writing on the wall.Ordinary citizen (of India) who goes about his business, a microcosm of which appears on this forum also, DOES NOT want to see play about Jinnah.Enough said.Let controversial playwright of this play, lick his wounds, go back and write another play, less offending, and , if it is good, the public will watch it.Let him not incite artists and the public for his own selfish ends. The public will have the last word on `free speech`.Not those among us who will take advantage of it.
#111 Posted by ana on July 11, 2005 5:58:13 am
sanguine & and other asmita posters:
my reaction to what was said about others was not sharp, but here are my points:
veeresh is an indian who asked some questions and clarifications about what had happened in delhi, and his questions were supported by pakistanis. if you cannot answer or do not wish to answer his questions because you believe they are unreasonable, then that is your call. but jumping the gun as some other indian interactors indeed have here in labelling you, to accuse veeresh of bias. . . where is this bias?
i am a pakistani who supports free speech and artistic expression and the freedom to put on a play about jinnah, or anyone, but when the writer of this letter attributes this in part to hatred of pakistanis and wanting to derail ``peace`` with pakistan, it is going to raise some questions. should you be assuming that those who have not resorted to name-calling but have wished for dialogue are not interested in what you are about? or would not support you?
and no, drlokraj was not the only one who understood where you were coming from, but some of us remained silent because of the name-calling. it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.
all the best,
--ana
my reaction to what was said about others was not sharp, but here are my points:
veeresh is an indian who asked some questions and clarifications about what had happened in delhi, and his questions were supported by pakistanis. if you cannot answer or do not wish to answer his questions because you believe they are unreasonable, then that is your call. but jumping the gun as some other indian interactors indeed have here in labelling you, to accuse veeresh of bias. . . where is this bias?
i am a pakistani who supports free speech and artistic expression and the freedom to put on a play about jinnah, or anyone, but when the writer of this letter attributes this in part to hatred of pakistanis and wanting to derail ``peace`` with pakistan, it is going to raise some questions. should you be assuming that those who have not resorted to name-calling but have wished for dialogue are not interested in what you are about? or would not support you?
and no, drlokraj was not the only one who understood where you were coming from, but some of us remained silent because of the name-calling. it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.
all the best,
--ana
#112 Posted by sanguine on July 11, 2005 11:48:09 am
Re: # 111
thank you ana, you are right ``it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.``
Even we felt really overwhelmed by the negative publicity going on in the forum. We are giving out the truth to any and everybody across the world. And this is not just happening in this site but in several sites thru-out the world simultaneously. We have no discrimation for any other countrymen or preferance for Indians. I did not try to find out who is what or from where but simply tried to answer some queries in the forum. Pls read our postings no. 85, 86, 87, 87, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 106, 107, IN Detail.
We are constantly in touch with people who are genuinely seeking answers. And we have not discarded any question as unreasonable. Once you go thru these above mentioned postings you will find that we, to our outmost liberty and honesty have answered all the queries raised so far. For any other queries, you may write in and we will reply to that.
Agreed we were a bit delayed in responding. That was simply because we have been running around so much with our 2 other productions, workshops, rehearsals, and the Media doesn`t let us rest, it`s always at our heels. WE needed to get our lives in order after this sudden shocking move.
But those few days have given rise to so many speculations, and preconcieved notions and blatant character assination of the director, the group and the actors of ASMITA that it was really depressing. Ok people want information, we will give it, but that does not mean that they should start accusing the group of seeking cheap publicity and maligning or sladering the motive. It`s not healthy or respectful. They should understand that just because we have a different point of view that doesn`t mean that we are crazy.
I will not take names or posting numbers, but once we went thru them we found most of them carried far fetched and humiliating assumtions and it was seriously hurting our reputation as artists.
For us Jinnah is more a human being first than a pakistani. No man is black or white, everybody has shades of gray. in our play he is a father, a brother, a husband, a friend, and above all this a man, just as he is a politician. The play is kind of an introspective dialogue of a very talented and ambitious man. We are not making any point either political or religious, we are only dealing with a man, a very complex and unusual and powerful man.
We wanted to revisit history and understand history from our perspective. we are not saying that the earlier perspective was wrong, but just that I want to see it differently. We want to go to pakistan. and continue this season of friendship. Someone even suggested we should do the play for pakistanis as well.
And we have tried to depict that in the play. He as a character has become very close to each and every member of ASMITA. And you will be surprised, as we were that the only query we got from all around is ``why stage a play on Jinnah?``. The only answer we can give is that ``He was interesting and still is. can be studied as a complex human chanracter.``
thanks for your posting.
thank you ana, you are right ``it does get very ugly here at chowk and ``saner`` voices do get drowned in the cacophony.``
Even we felt really overwhelmed by the negative publicity going on in the forum. We are giving out the truth to any and everybody across the world. And this is not just happening in this site but in several sites thru-out the world simultaneously. We have no discrimation for any other countrymen or preferance for Indians. I did not try to find out who is what or from where but simply tried to answer some queries in the forum. Pls read our postings no. 85, 86, 87, 87, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 106, 107, IN Detail.
We are constantly in touch with people who are genuinely seeking answers. And we have not discarded any question as unreasonable. Once you go thru these above mentioned postings you will find that we, to our outmost liberty and honesty have answered all the queries raised so far. For any other queries, you may write in and we will reply to that.
Agreed we were a bit delayed in responding. That was simply because we have been running around so much with our 2 other productions, workshops, rehearsals, and the Media doesn`t let us rest, it`s always at our heels. WE needed to get our lives in order after this sudden shocking move.
But those few days have given rise to so many speculations, and preconcieved notions and blatant character assination of the director, the group and the actors of ASMITA that it was really depressing. Ok people want information, we will give it, but that does not mean that they should start accusing the group of seeking cheap publicity and maligning or sladering the motive. It`s not healthy or respectful. They should understand that just because we have a different point of view that doesn`t mean that we are crazy.
I will not take names or posting numbers, but once we went thru them we found most of them carried far fetched and humiliating assumtions and it was seriously hurting our reputation as artists.
For us Jinnah is more a human being first than a pakistani. No man is black or white, everybody has shades of gray. in our play he is a father, a brother, a husband, a friend, and above all this a man, just as he is a politician. The play is kind of an introspective dialogue of a very talented and ambitious man. We are not making any point either political or religious, we are only dealing with a man, a very complex and unusual and powerful man.
We wanted to revisit history and understand history from our perspective. we are not saying that the earlier perspective was wrong, but just that I want to see it differently. We want to go to pakistan. and continue this season of friendship. Someone even suggested we should do the play for pakistanis as well.
And we have tried to depict that in the play. He as a character has become very close to each and every member of ASMITA. And you will be surprised, as we were that the only query we got from all around is ``why stage a play on Jinnah?``. The only answer we can give is that ``He was interesting and still is. can be studied as a complex human chanracter.``
thanks for your posting.
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