Are all Women Witches?
Farzana Versey June 28, 2005
#112 Posted by teshah on July 15, 2005 5:57:11 pm
Re: # 41
I am sorry you people got serious about an episode which in my view was more comic in nature than tragic. It was, as the story goes, first a mullah, then NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. Naturally the media also stepped in and made the best use of it adding fuel to the fire.
You know it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the misconduct of her brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. May’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many mouths. But as the courts inquiry goes the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. Do you think dear every body should sit in judgment over a case when one does not know even about the bare facts of the case? As you go, you want to dishonour Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.
Now what a display of ‘fecking honour’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgement of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘that bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of `honour’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.
In fact I believe sex as such is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eye witnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to be penalized severely. As regards rape, you would have learnt about a ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India. They held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this is the adoption of a Judaistic law which makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour. Now listen what the Wiseman of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He advises that if you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy. I would personally act upon his advice if ever I were subjected to rape albeit by the opposite sex.
I envy Mukhtaran Mai that she is so lucky to have the best of the two, nay , rather three worlds and is so happy. Only the NGOs seem now to be feeling chillies in their hinds out of jealousy perhaps.
I am sorry you people got serious about an episode which in my view was more comic in nature than tragic. It was, as the story goes, first a mullah, then NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. Naturally the media also stepped in and made the best use of it adding fuel to the fire.
You know it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the misconduct of her brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. May’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many mouths. But as the courts inquiry goes the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. Do you think dear every body should sit in judgment over a case when one does not know even about the bare facts of the case? As you go, you want to dishonour Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.
Now what a display of ‘fecking honour’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgement of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘that bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of `honour’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.
In fact I believe sex as such is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eye witnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to be penalized severely. As regards rape, you would have learnt about a ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India. They held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this is the adoption of a Judaistic law which makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour. Now listen what the Wiseman of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He advises that if you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy. I would personally act upon his advice if ever I were subjected to rape albeit by the opposite sex.
I envy Mukhtaran Mai that she is so lucky to have the best of the two, nay , rather three worlds and is so happy. Only the NGOs seem now to be feeling chillies in their hinds out of jealousy perhaps.
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#111 Posted by Mike_Hunt on July 12, 2005 10:11:28 am
Speaking of witches, here is a joke about Scout.
Two sperms inside Scout were overheard saying:
Sperm #1 - I can`t wait till we get to the fallopian tubes.
Sperm #2 - Stupid, we are in her stomach. :)
Two sperms inside Scout were overheard saying:
Sperm #1 - I can`t wait till we get to the fallopian tubes.
Sperm #2 - Stupid, we are in her stomach. :)
#110 Posted by teshah on July 7, 2005 5:40:15 pm
Farzana
Woman is not a witch till she remains a woman but she may become a witch when she is no longer a woman, that is, she becomes sexless after menopause. She then becomes either a witch or just, what we call in Punjabi, a `Phunder`. She has to become a witch when she looses her charms to captivate the opposite sex. Man remains a man till his death but a woman remains a woman only temporarily. A cow or hen is slaughtered when it becomes a Phunder (unproductive) but a woman becomes a witch for her survival. The greatest witch Pkistan has produced is Mukhtaran Mai to match the Indian Phoolan Devi. Phoolan lynched her husband with the help of a dacoit paramour whereas Mai got the man who claimed to be her husband incarcerated with the help of NGOs. What a pity! All men seem to have turned feminist due to fear of witches or being captivated by their witchery.
Woman is not a witch till she remains a woman but she may become a witch when she is no longer a woman, that is, she becomes sexless after menopause. She then becomes either a witch or just, what we call in Punjabi, a `Phunder`. She has to become a witch when she looses her charms to captivate the opposite sex. Man remains a man till his death but a woman remains a woman only temporarily. A cow or hen is slaughtered when it becomes a Phunder (unproductive) but a woman becomes a witch for her survival. The greatest witch Pkistan has produced is Mukhtaran Mai to match the Indian Phoolan Devi. Phoolan lynched her husband with the help of a dacoit paramour whereas Mai got the man who claimed to be her husband incarcerated with the help of NGOs. What a pity! All men seem to have turned feminist due to fear of witches or being captivated by their witchery.
#109 Posted by vagabond78 on July 5, 2005 9:16:55 am
Re: # 108
I read this the day it was published and dropped it. I never saw your post #48 and rest. I did notice that your last post was reproduced but my point was why did you have to choose THAT article over others?
I may have jumped the gun about the article being inspired by Imrana, but this should only be expected since I`ve stopped caring about what I`m reading in your articles.
I read this the day it was published and dropped it. I never saw your post #48 and rest. I did notice that your last post was reproduced but my point was why did you have to choose THAT article over others?
I may have jumped the gun about the article being inspired by Imrana, but this should only be expected since I`ve stopped caring about what I`m reading in your articles.
#108 Posted by FarzanaVersey on July 5, 2005 6:16:39 am
Re: # 106
I have been regularly posting updates on the Imrana case...I did not have to go to the Arab News...it was reproduced in the Asian Age (it is clearly mentioned).
[Would you want us to believe that the said fatwa was never issued by Dar-ul-Uloom? This article you say was inspired by Imrana case but nowhere does it notes the prejudice in islam and muslims]
I would have thought you have not read my posts, but you have...and chosen to misinterpret. Nowhere have I said that THIS article has been inspired by Imrana (in fact I rbought in Imrana when someone else was discussing Mukhtaran Mai). This has been inspired by the Pusana devi declared a witch case...it is there in the article which you might not have read). As regards my opinion on the fatwa, I posted my letter that was published in The Asian Age. It is in post #48.
It is amazing how people jump the gun and then believe they are firing.
HP:
Why do you have to believe that? Imrana`s claim ought to be sufficient. All this propery dispute crap is just a ruse....
I have been regularly posting updates on the Imrana case...I did not have to go to the Arab News...it was reproduced in the Asian Age (it is clearly mentioned).
[Would you want us to believe that the said fatwa was never issued by Dar-ul-Uloom? This article you say was inspired by Imrana case but nowhere does it notes the prejudice in islam and muslims]
I would have thought you have not read my posts, but you have...and chosen to misinterpret. Nowhere have I said that THIS article has been inspired by Imrana (in fact I rbought in Imrana when someone else was discussing Mukhtaran Mai). This has been inspired by the Pusana devi declared a witch case...it is there in the article which you might not have read). As regards my opinion on the fatwa, I posted my letter that was published in The Asian Age. It is in post #48.
It is amazing how people jump the gun and then believe they are firing.
HP:
Why do you have to believe that? Imrana`s claim ought to be sufficient. All this propery dispute crap is just a ruse....
#107 Posted by ballukhan on July 5, 2005 5:53:21 am
``There is another twist to the Imrana story. Now the Fatwa body claims that there was no rape.
This clearly is not as simple as 1 2 3... ``
That is only a way to save the face of these illiterate maulavis......after that fantastic decision these idiots find themselves at the wrong end of public opinion.......so to save their face they have come up with another disgusting explanation by quoting out of context.............these idiots should be told to fukoff and not interfere with the criminal process!!!!
This clearly is not as simple as 1 2 3... ``
That is only a way to save the face of these illiterate maulavis......after that fantastic decision these idiots find themselves at the wrong end of public opinion.......so to save their face they have come up with another disgusting explanation by quoting out of context.............these idiots should be told to fukoff and not interfere with the criminal process!!!!
#106 Posted by vagabond78 on July 5, 2005 5:50:37 am
#101 by FarzanaVersey
Nice post Ms FV. When there`s so much written about Imrana everywhere do you have to go to that Arab News for an update? Would you want us to believe that the said fatwa was never issued by Dar-ul-Uloom? This article you say was inspired by Imrana case but nowhere does it notes the prejudice in islam and muslims.
I understand a writer`s desire to be read and respected. I also understand the importance of contrarian view and unique position of being a `fly in the soup`. But when its overdone people stop taking you seriously. For the same reasons I dont like Swaminathan Aiyar`s column in Times. But at least his columns can be accepted and appreciated as part of an academic discourse.
So while Mr Aiyar comes across as an academic trying to be oversmart and outwit others, your articles tend to be what they really are - rantings of high emotion and low quotient.
Nice post Ms FV. When there`s so much written about Imrana everywhere do you have to go to that Arab News for an update? Would you want us to believe that the said fatwa was never issued by Dar-ul-Uloom? This article you say was inspired by Imrana case but nowhere does it notes the prejudice in islam and muslims.
I understand a writer`s desire to be read and respected. I also understand the importance of contrarian view and unique position of being a `fly in the soup`. But when its overdone people stop taking you seriously. For the same reasons I dont like Swaminathan Aiyar`s column in Times. But at least his columns can be accepted and appreciated as part of an academic discourse.
So while Mr Aiyar comes across as an academic trying to be oversmart and outwit others, your articles tend to be what they really are - rantings of high emotion and low quotient.
#105 Posted by BeeJay on July 4, 2005 10:27:45 am
#101 Versey
It’s terrible! That’s all one ought to say.
Of course, the likes of FV and HP and all those countless variations of two lettered individuals (with corresponding quantities of smarts to match) will take a microscope and examine each and every paragraph, sentence, letter, and punctuation mark of that legendary fatwa – an oozy doozy, if you ask me (not that their ilk will ever dare to) – to “form” an opinion on the “merits” of that piece of crap, and half-heartedly console each other (while secretly crying their tears on the shoulders of each other), and completely miss sight of the very obvious faeces that plainly stare right into their faces – regarding which, unlike Pedki Devi, they DO have a choice of taking an unequivocal stand – and instead, will hum and haw (such phonies!)
The obvious FACT is – the whole thing stinks! The setup, the beards, the readers of the Book, and the religious figure(head)s! But the “intellectuals” come out looking the lousiest – like a thoroughly soaked cat with a crushed tail!
Keep on Meowing! I got to go see some fireworks!
Sincerely,
BeeJay.
#104 Posted by HP on July 4, 2005 9:54:52 am
There is another twist to the Imrana story. Now the Fatwa body claims that there was no rape.
This clearly is not as simple as 1 2 3...
``New Delhi, July 3: Giving a new twist to the Imrana case, the All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) on Sunday said the woman might not have been raped as has been claimed and allegation might have been influenced by a property dispute.
AIMPLB had sent a team to Muzaffarnagar to ascertain facts about the case which has kicked-off a major controversy in the country.
``A team conducted investigation and found no evidence of rape except for Imrana`s claim,`` the team leader and AIMPLB convenor S.Q.R. Ilyaas said on return.
He said the team felt that the allegation may have been influenced by a property dispute between father-in-law Ali Ahmed and Imrana and her husband Nur Ilahi.
Ali Ahmed apparently wanted to sell the house which was opposed by Imrana and her husband.
The woman Imrana’s brother, Imran, however, refuted the AIMPLB claim that her allegation was not true and could have stemmed from a property dispute with the father-in-law. Terming the Board’s claim as ‘baseless,’ Imran said in Muzaffarnagar that she has given statements about the alleged rape in the court of the judicial magistrate and also filed an application in the local Shariat court.
“She stands by her FIR,” he said but kept quiet when asked why she did not appear in the religious court on Friday. The court, which conventionally meets on the first Friday of every month, acknowledged that Imrana had filed an application but did not turn up to pursue the case.
Imrana’s alleged rape kicked up a controversy and made national headlines after an Islamic seminary ruled that she should separate from her husband following the incident.
#103 Posted by drlokraj on July 4, 2005 8:31:02 am
By Tavleen Singh
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul22005/panorama164941200571.asp
The Dar-ul-Uloom`s fatwa last week condemning Imrana to a marital life
of unmitigated hell and absolving her rapist father-in-law comes as no
surprise to me. It comes as no surprise because last year I had the
dubious pleasure of visiting the Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband and seeing
for myself what this Islamic school that inspired the Taliban is
really like.
It was this inspiration that caused the Taliban to execute women in
Kabul`s infamous football field for crimes they often did not know
they had committed. It was this inspiration from Deoband`s
interpretation of the shariyat that caused the Taliban to ban
education for women and to punish them for such supposed misdemeanors
as wearing white socks and shoes that made a noise when they walked.
Now, Deoband rules that Imrana, a mother of five children, of
Charthawal village, district Muzaffarnagar, in UP is haraam for her
husband, Noor Ilahi because she dared protest publicly about being
raped by her father-in-law, Ali Mohammad.
It is typical of the Deobandi interpretation of the laws of Islam that
they have not condemned the rapist. And, if you were following the
story you would have noticed that the bearded maulvis who expounded on
the subject on television hinted that they did not believe she could
have been raped. ``Taali donon haathon sey bajti hai,`` said one bearded
monster with a smug smile on his face.
As a Muslim woman Imrana showed extraordinary courage in going public
at all because under Islamic law rape can only be punished if four
male witnesses exist. They never do. Her only hope now is that the
normal laws of the land are implemented and her father-in-law charged
and punished under them. Her personal life is ruined because her wimp
of a husband has already announced that he will obey the fatwa from
Deoband.
There are wider implications of Imrana`s story and they should concern
us all. What should concern us is that the Dar-ul-uloom will get away
with its outrageous interference in the law. What should concern us
even more is that the Dar-ul-uloom should exist at all on the soil of
India. If you are shocked that I can say something so politically
incorrect let me describe for you what this institution of Islamic
teaching looks like.
During the general election in May last year I happened to drive past
Deoband on my way to cover election stories in UP and since I had
heard of how the Taliban took their inspiration from the Dar-ul-Uloom
decided that it would be worth my while to stop and take a look at
this influential school.
Deoband is a shabby, little hick town with a dusty, disorderly
collection of half-built shops as its main bazaar and its shabbiness
makes the magnificence of the Dar-ul-Uloom even more startling. But, I
go too fast. I drove through the dusty bazaar, along a gutted road to
arrive at a pair of tall, black wrought iron gates. Beyond these gates
I could see several fine, white-washed Islamic buildings and beyond
them a magnificent mosque that seemed almost bigger than the town of
Deoband. At the entrance was a white-bearded gentleman in traditional
Islamic clothing — a long kurta over loose pajamas that barely reached
his calves. I asked him if I could meet the chief Maulana and after
several minutes on the telephone to someone to whom he conveyed my
request he said I could not meet him because a) I did not have an
appointment and b) I was not veiled.
This irritated me and I pointed out that this was India and not Saudi
Arabia and in any case I was not Muslim and that if the Maulana was so
keen on purdah then perhaps he should be in it.
At this point a group of bearded students walked by and asked what was
going on. When I explained they said I should go to the main office
and make an appointment to come back another time. Knowing that I
would never have any desire to come back to the Dar-ul-Uloom I decided
that as I was there I could at least look around the famed seminary.
So, despite the protests of the white bearded watchman I strolled onto
the grounds and found myself in a little bit of Saudi Arabia. All the
men I saw were bearded and in Islamic clothes, a small bazaar on the
campus sold books only in Urdu and Arabic and when I stopped to talk
to a group of young men they said (in Urdu) that they could not talk
to me because they spoke only Arabic and I had been rude about their
Maulana. I never found out what they considered rude but thought them
not just rude but nauseatingly fanatical.
The whole atmosphere was medieval and extremely unpleasant especially
if you happened to be a woman. In the forty minutes or so that I spent
in the Dar-ul-Uloom I saw only one other woman and she was so heavily
veiled that only her eyes and a bit of her nose were exposed. So you
see why the fatwa that punishes the victim and not the rapist comes as
no surprise to me.
Finally, two questions. Why is a seminary that can only breed Islamic
fanatics allowed to exist in India? Will the government of India take
action against the maulvis who issued that fatwa declaring Imrana
haraam for her husband? Both questions demand answers from `secular`
leaders like Sonia Gandhi and Mulayam Singh Yadav. And, if this is the
secular India they want to build then give me Hindutva any old time.
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul22005/panorama164941200571.asp
The Dar-ul-Uloom`s fatwa last week condemning Imrana to a marital life
of unmitigated hell and absolving her rapist father-in-law comes as no
surprise to me. It comes as no surprise because last year I had the
dubious pleasure of visiting the Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband and seeing
for myself what this Islamic school that inspired the Taliban is
really like.
It was this inspiration that caused the Taliban to execute women in
Kabul`s infamous football field for crimes they often did not know
they had committed. It was this inspiration from Deoband`s
interpretation of the shariyat that caused the Taliban to ban
education for women and to punish them for such supposed misdemeanors
as wearing white socks and shoes that made a noise when they walked.
Now, Deoband rules that Imrana, a mother of five children, of
Charthawal village, district Muzaffarnagar, in UP is haraam for her
husband, Noor Ilahi because she dared protest publicly about being
raped by her father-in-law, Ali Mohammad.
It is typical of the Deobandi interpretation of the laws of Islam that
they have not condemned the rapist. And, if you were following the
story you would have noticed that the bearded maulvis who expounded on
the subject on television hinted that they did not believe she could
have been raped. ``Taali donon haathon sey bajti hai,`` said one bearded
monster with a smug smile on his face.
As a Muslim woman Imrana showed extraordinary courage in going public
at all because under Islamic law rape can only be punished if four
male witnesses exist. They never do. Her only hope now is that the
normal laws of the land are implemented and her father-in-law charged
and punished under them. Her personal life is ruined because her wimp
of a husband has already announced that he will obey the fatwa from
Deoband.
There are wider implications of Imrana`s story and they should concern
us all. What should concern us is that the Dar-ul-uloom will get away
with its outrageous interference in the law. What should concern us
even more is that the Dar-ul-uloom should exist at all on the soil of
India. If you are shocked that I can say something so politically
incorrect let me describe for you what this institution of Islamic
teaching looks like.
During the general election in May last year I happened to drive past
Deoband on my way to cover election stories in UP and since I had
heard of how the Taliban took their inspiration from the Dar-ul-Uloom
decided that it would be worth my while to stop and take a look at
this influential school.
Deoband is a shabby, little hick town with a dusty, disorderly
collection of half-built shops as its main bazaar and its shabbiness
makes the magnificence of the Dar-ul-Uloom even more startling. But, I
go too fast. I drove through the dusty bazaar, along a gutted road to
arrive at a pair of tall, black wrought iron gates. Beyond these gates
I could see several fine, white-washed Islamic buildings and beyond
them a magnificent mosque that seemed almost bigger than the town of
Deoband. At the entrance was a white-bearded gentleman in traditional
Islamic clothing — a long kurta over loose pajamas that barely reached
his calves. I asked him if I could meet the chief Maulana and after
several minutes on the telephone to someone to whom he conveyed my
request he said I could not meet him because a) I did not have an
appointment and b) I was not veiled.
This irritated me and I pointed out that this was India and not Saudi
Arabia and in any case I was not Muslim and that if the Maulana was so
keen on purdah then perhaps he should be in it.
At this point a group of bearded students walked by and asked what was
going on. When I explained they said I should go to the main office
and make an appointment to come back another time. Knowing that I
would never have any desire to come back to the Dar-ul-Uloom I decided
that as I was there I could at least look around the famed seminary.
So, despite the protests of the white bearded watchman I strolled onto
the grounds and found myself in a little bit of Saudi Arabia. All the
men I saw were bearded and in Islamic clothes, a small bazaar on the
campus sold books only in Urdu and Arabic and when I stopped to talk
to a group of young men they said (in Urdu) that they could not talk
to me because they spoke only Arabic and I had been rude about their
Maulana. I never found out what they considered rude but thought them
not just rude but nauseatingly fanatical.
The whole atmosphere was medieval and extremely unpleasant especially
if you happened to be a woman. In the forty minutes or so that I spent
in the Dar-ul-Uloom I saw only one other woman and she was so heavily
veiled that only her eyes and a bit of her nose were exposed. So you
see why the fatwa that punishes the victim and not the rapist comes as
no surprise to me.
Finally, two questions. Why is a seminary that can only breed Islamic
fanatics allowed to exist in India? Will the government of India take
action against the maulvis who issued that fatwa declaring Imrana
haraam for her husband? Both questions demand answers from `secular`
leaders like Sonia Gandhi and Mulayam Singh Yadav. And, if this is the
secular India they want to build then give me Hindutva any old time.
#102 Posted by drlokraj on July 4, 2005 8:30:06 am
By Tavleen Singh
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul22005/panorama164941200571.asp
The Dar-ul-Uloom`s fatwa last week condemning Imrana to a marital life
of unmitigated hell and absolving her rapist father-in-law comes as no
surprise to me. It comes as no surprise because last year I had the
dubious pleasure of visiting the Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband and seeing
for myself what this Islamic school that inspired the Taliban is
really like.
It was this inspiration that caused the Taliban to execute women in
Kabul`s infamous football field for crimes they often did not know
they had committed. It was this inspiration from Deoband`s
interpretation of the shariyat that caused the Taliban to ban
education for women and to punish them for such supposed misdemeanors
as wearing white socks and shoes that made a noise when they walked.
Now, Deoband rules that Imrana, a mother of five children, of
Charthawal village, district Muzaffarnagar, in UP is haraam for her
husband, Noor Ilahi because she dared protest publicly about being
raped by her father-in-law, Ali Mohammad.
It is typical of the Deobandi interpretation of the laws of Islam that
they have not condemned the rapist. And, if you were following the
story you would have noticed that the bearded maulvis who expounded on
the subject on television hinted that they did not believe she could
have been raped. ``Taali donon haathon sey bajti hai,`` said one bearded
monster with a smug smile on his face.
As a Muslim woman Imrana showed extraordinary courage in going public
at all because under Islamic law rape can only be punished if four
male witnesses exist. They never do. Her only hope now is that the
normal laws of the land are implemented and her father-in-law charged
and punished under them. Her personal life is ruined because her wimp
of a husband has already announced that he will obey the fatwa from
Deoband.
There are wider implications of Imrana`s story and they should concern
us all. What should concern us is that the Dar-ul-uloom will get away
with its outrageous interference in the law. What should concern us
even more is that the Dar-ul-uloom should exist at all on the soil of
India. If you are shocked that I can say something so politically
incorrect let me describe for you what this institution of Islamic
teaching looks like.
During the general election in May last year I happened to drive past
Deoband on my way to cover election stories in UP and since I had
heard of how the Taliban took their inspiration from the Dar-ul-Uloom
decided that it would be worth my while to stop and take a look at
this influential school.
Deoband is a shabby, little hick town with a dusty, disorderly
collection of half-built shops as its main bazaar and its shabbiness
makes the magnificence of the Dar-ul-Uloom even more startling. But, I
go too fast. I drove through the dusty bazaar, along a gutted road to
arrive at a pair of tall, black wrought iron gates. Beyond these gates
I could see several fine, white-washed Islamic buildings and beyond
them a magnificent mosque that seemed almost bigger than the town of
Deoband. At the entrance was a white-bearded gentleman in traditional
Islamic clothing — a long kurta over loose pajamas that barely reached
his calves. I asked him if I could meet the chief Maulana and after
several minutes on the telephone to someone to whom he conveyed my
request he said I could not meet him because a) I did not have an
appointment and b) I was not veiled.
This irritated me and I pointed out that this was India and not Saudi
Arabia and in any case I was not Muslim and that if the Maulana was so
keen on purdah then perhaps he should be in it.
At this point a group of bearded students walked by and asked what was
going on. When I explained they said I should go to the main office
and make an appointment to come back another time. Knowing that I
would never have any desire to come back to the Dar-ul-Uloom I decided
that as I was there I could at least look around the famed seminary.
So, despite the protests of the white bearded watchman I strolled onto
the grounds and found myself in a little bit of Saudi Arabia. All the
men I saw were bearded and in Islamic clothes, a small bazaar on the
campus sold books only in Urdu and Arabic and when I stopped to talk
to a group of young men they said (in Urdu) that they could not talk
to me because they spoke only Arabic and I had been rude about their
Maulana. I never found out what they considered rude but thought them
not just rude but nauseatingly fanatical.
The whole atmosphere was medieval and extremely unpleasant especially
if you happened to be a woman. In the forty minutes or so that I spent
in the Dar-ul-Uloom I saw only one other woman and she was so heavily
veiled that only her eyes and a bit of her nose were exposed. So you
see why the fatwa that punishes the victim and not the rapist comes as
no surprise to me.
Finally, two questions. Why is a seminary that can only breed Islamic
fanatics allowed to exist in India? Will the government of India take
action against the maulvis who issued that fatwa declaring Imrana
haraam for her husband? Both questions demand answers from `secular`
leaders like Sonia Gandhi and Mulayam Singh Yadav. And, if this is the
secular India they want to build then give me Hindutva any old time.
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jul22005/panorama164941200571.asp
The Dar-ul-Uloom`s fatwa last week condemning Imrana to a marital life
of unmitigated hell and absolving her rapist father-in-law comes as no
surprise to me. It comes as no surprise because last year I had the
dubious pleasure of visiting the Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband and seeing
for myself what this Islamic school that inspired the Taliban is
really like.
It was this inspiration that caused the Taliban to execute women in
Kabul`s infamous football field for crimes they often did not know
they had committed. It was this inspiration from Deoband`s
interpretation of the shariyat that caused the Taliban to ban
education for women and to punish them for such supposed misdemeanors
as wearing white socks and shoes that made a noise when they walked.
Now, Deoband rules that Imrana, a mother of five children, of
Charthawal village, district Muzaffarnagar, in UP is haraam for her
husband, Noor Ilahi because she dared protest publicly about being
raped by her father-in-law, Ali Mohammad.
It is typical of the Deobandi interpretation of the laws of Islam that
they have not condemned the rapist. And, if you were following the
story you would have noticed that the bearded maulvis who expounded on
the subject on television hinted that they did not believe she could
have been raped. ``Taali donon haathon sey bajti hai,`` said one bearded
monster with a smug smile on his face.
As a Muslim woman Imrana showed extraordinary courage in going public
at all because under Islamic law rape can only be punished if four
male witnesses exist. They never do. Her only hope now is that the
normal laws of the land are implemented and her father-in-law charged
and punished under them. Her personal life is ruined because her wimp
of a husband has already announced that he will obey the fatwa from
Deoband.
There are wider implications of Imrana`s story and they should concern
us all. What should concern us is that the Dar-ul-uloom will get away
with its outrageous interference in the law. What should concern us
even more is that the Dar-ul-uloom should exist at all on the soil of
India. If you are shocked that I can say something so politically
incorrect let me describe for you what this institution of Islamic
teaching looks like.
During the general election in May last year I happened to drive past
Deoband on my way to cover election stories in UP and since I had
heard of how the Taliban took their inspiration from the Dar-ul-Uloom
decided that it would be worth my while to stop and take a look at
this influential school.
Deoband is a shabby, little hick town with a dusty, disorderly
collection of half-built shops as its main bazaar and its shabbiness
makes the magnificence of the Dar-ul-Uloom even more startling. But, I
go too fast. I drove through the dusty bazaar, along a gutted road to
arrive at a pair of tall, black wrought iron gates. Beyond these gates
I could see several fine, white-washed Islamic buildings and beyond
them a magnificent mosque that seemed almost bigger than the town of
Deoband. At the entrance was a white-bearded gentleman in traditional
Islamic clothing — a long kurta over loose pajamas that barely reached
his calves. I asked him if I could meet the chief Maulana and after
several minutes on the telephone to someone to whom he conveyed my
request he said I could not meet him because a) I did not have an
appointment and b) I was not veiled.
This irritated me and I pointed out that this was India and not Saudi
Arabia and in any case I was not Muslim and that if the Maulana was so
keen on purdah then perhaps he should be in it.
At this point a group of bearded students walked by and asked what was
going on. When I explained they said I should go to the main office
and make an appointment to come back another time. Knowing that I
would never have any desire to come back to the Dar-ul-Uloom I decided
that as I was there I could at least look around the famed seminary.
So, despite the protests of the white bearded watchman I strolled onto
the grounds and found myself in a little bit of Saudi Arabia. All the
men I saw were bearded and in Islamic clothes, a small bazaar on the
campus sold books only in Urdu and Arabic and when I stopped to talk
to a group of young men they said (in Urdu) that they could not talk
to me because they spoke only Arabic and I had been rude about their
Maulana. I never found out what they considered rude but thought them
not just rude but nauseatingly fanatical.
The whole atmosphere was medieval and extremely unpleasant especially
if you happened to be a woman. In the forty minutes or so that I spent
in the Dar-ul-Uloom I saw only one other woman and she was so heavily
veiled that only her eyes and a bit of her nose were exposed. So you
see why the fatwa that punishes the victim and not the rapist comes as
no surprise to me.
Finally, two questions. Why is a seminary that can only breed Islamic
fanatics allowed to exist in India? Will the government of India take
action against the maulvis who issued that fatwa declaring Imrana
haraam for her husband? Both questions demand answers from `secular`
leaders like Sonia Gandhi and Mulayam Singh Yadav. And, if this is the
secular India they want to build then give me Hindutva any old time.
#101 Posted by FarzanaVersey on July 4, 2005 1:59:05 am
Imrana ‘fatwa’ is absurd, infuriating (the print edition of The Asian Age mentions that the writer is Religion Editor of Arab News)
- By Adil Salahi
Imrana Ilahi, an ordinary Muslim Indian woman, recently found her name mentioned in countless articles, news despatches, email messages and angry reports going in all directions. Many people would love to be famous, and some know how to use such sudden fame to advantage. But not so Imrana, whose newly acquired fame is for the wrong reasons, and for nothing she had done or contemplated. Poor Imrana has been the target of several wrong actions by the wrong people.
To start with, Imrana was the victim of rape by none other than her father-in-law, who, according to news reports, is now in prison awaiting trial. She was, secondly, the victim of a fatwa issued by certain people who ruled that she can no longer remain married to her husband; rather, she should treat him like her own son. Thirdly, Imrana was further victimised by the local authorities who said that they endorse the fatwa since it has been issued by a recognised institute. Fourth, she has been the victim of many self-appointed defenders who took up her case and are trying to bring pressure to bear on her, her family and the authorities to reverse this fatwa. Finally, according to some reports, Imrana has been told to move in with her rapist as she can be married to him now instead of his son, her own husband.
In the midst of all this furore, Imrana feels like one in a whirlwind of confusion. After her personal tragedy, her only desire is to continue her simple life, abiding by Islamic teachings and looking after her children. Needless to say, the case has provided new ammunition to those who are always on the lookout for anything to use in order to attack Islam and Muslims.
Looking at a reported fatwa:
Unfortunately, when the media takes up such a case, the truth is often forgotten and we are rarely able to establish the simple facts of the case. In all news agency reports I have seen, very little is written about the basis of the fatwa. A couple of quotations attributed to spokespersons at Darul-Uloom at Deoband are often mentioned, but we cannot determine who actually said what. Nevertheless, it is important to make clear the Islamic standpoint on such cases. It is the standard practice of Islamic scholarship that the views of any school of thought should be taken from books written by its own scholars. Thus, if we see a reference to, say, a Hanafi viewpoint in the writings of a highly reputable scholar known for his accuracy and scholarly achievement but is not a Hanafi, we cannot rely on his reporting of the viewpoint and accept it as the standard Hanafi view. We must go back to references and scholars of the Hanafi school and consult them. Only when they confirm the same viewpoint as reported by that scholar, can we accept it as a Hanafi view.
Therefore, without having seen the fatwa as issued by Darul-Uloom and reviewing its basis and the evidence cited in support of it, I cannot comment on the fatwa itself. What I propose to do is to discuss the reports I have seen, and then I will look at the case of a woman raped by her father-in-law and the effect of such a situation on her marriage.
Basis of the fatwa
The reports mention that the fatwa is based on the fact that the rape was a conjugal, sexual relation between Imrana and her father-in-law, and this makes it forbidden for her to be married to her husband. The reports quote certain spokespersons as saying that it does not matter that the relationship was by consent or compulsion.
If the reports are accurate, then we say that those who issued the fatwa must have taken as their basis Verse 22 of Surah 4 of the Quran, entitled Women, which may be translated as follows: ``Do not marry women whom your fathers have previously married, unless it be a thing of the past. Surely, that is an indecent, abominable and evil practice.`` (Verse 22.) It has to be said, however, that the Arabic word nakaha, which is used in the verse for marriage, is nowadays more often used in spoken Arabic to refer to sex, rather than marriage, but in official documents it continues to signify marriage. However, Quranic statements must be understood and interpreted according to the common usage by native Arabic speakers during the Prophet’s lifetime. We know for certain that this word was used in spoken and written Arabic to refer to marriage. In all other instances in the Quran, it is only used to mean marriage. Therefore, it must be treated as such, and we say that the verse refers only to marital relations.
Thus, all Muslim schools of thought are unanimous that a man cannot marry his father’s former wife. There is no question about this. Scholars, however, differ as to whether a man can marry a woman with whom his father had committed adultery, but this is not relevant to the present case.
It is important also to look at the above Quranic verse and its construction in order to understand its full significance. The word nakahai, or marry, is used twice in the verse, but it is used first in the present tense, which in Arabic signifies the present and the future, while it is used in the past tense in the second instance. Thus it prohibits the initiation of marriage with a woman who was previously married to one’s father. In other words, the woman’s relationship with the father is over, either because she is divorced, or the father has died. In any case she remains unlawful for his son to marry.
Applicability to Imrana’s case
It cannot be overemphasised that the verse speaks about marital relations, and their initiation. As such, it is totally inapplicable to the case in hand, because Imrana was never in any sort of relationship with her father-in-law prior to her marriage. What happened between them came later, after she has been in a valid marital relationship with her husband to whom she has given five children. Therefore, there is no question about the validity of her marriage.
Moving in with the rapist
Most infuriating is the suggestion carried in news reports that some scholars are saying that Imrana should, or could move in with her father-in-law, or may marry him. I seriously doubt that this has been said by any scholar worthy of the name. The Quranic verse next to the one we have quoted above gives a list of the women Muslims are not allowed to marry in any circumstances. The list includes: ``The wives of your own begotten sons.`` (4:23) These are again totally forbidden for Muslims to marry in any circumstances. Is it possible that someone who has any knowledge of Islamic family law could suggest that now that the father-in-law has raped Imrana, he can marry her? Can it be true that anyone imagines that the crime of rape could nullify a ruling by God, stated in His book, the Quran? The Prophet says that no right can accrue as a result of an offence or wrongdoing. Here it is suggested that a prohibition by God Himself is set aside as a result of such wrongdoing. The fatwa is absurd.
- By Adil Salahi
Imrana Ilahi, an ordinary Muslim Indian woman, recently found her name mentioned in countless articles, news despatches, email messages and angry reports going in all directions. Many people would love to be famous, and some know how to use such sudden fame to advantage. But not so Imrana, whose newly acquired fame is for the wrong reasons, and for nothing she had done or contemplated. Poor Imrana has been the target of several wrong actions by the wrong people.
To start with, Imrana was the victim of rape by none other than her father-in-law, who, according to news reports, is now in prison awaiting trial. She was, secondly, the victim of a fatwa issued by certain people who ruled that she can no longer remain married to her husband; rather, she should treat him like her own son. Thirdly, Imrana was further victimised by the local authorities who said that they endorse the fatwa since it has been issued by a recognised institute. Fourth, she has been the victim of many self-appointed defenders who took up her case and are trying to bring pressure to bear on her, her family and the authorities to reverse this fatwa. Finally, according to some reports, Imrana has been told to move in with her rapist as she can be married to him now instead of his son, her own husband.
In the midst of all this furore, Imrana feels like one in a whirlwind of confusion. After her personal tragedy, her only desire is to continue her simple life, abiding by Islamic teachings and looking after her children. Needless to say, the case has provided new ammunition to those who are always on the lookout for anything to use in order to attack Islam and Muslims.
Looking at a reported fatwa:
Unfortunately, when the media takes up such a case, the truth is often forgotten and we are rarely able to establish the simple facts of the case. In all news agency reports I have seen, very little is written about the basis of the fatwa. A couple of quotations attributed to spokespersons at Darul-Uloom at Deoband are often mentioned, but we cannot determine who actually said what. Nevertheless, it is important to make clear the Islamic standpoint on such cases. It is the standard practice of Islamic scholarship that the views of any school of thought should be taken from books written by its own scholars. Thus, if we see a reference to, say, a Hanafi viewpoint in the writings of a highly reputable scholar known for his accuracy and scholarly achievement but is not a Hanafi, we cannot rely on his reporting of the viewpoint and accept it as the standard Hanafi view. We must go back to references and scholars of the Hanafi school and consult them. Only when they confirm the same viewpoint as reported by that scholar, can we accept it as a Hanafi view.
Therefore, without having seen the fatwa as issued by Darul-Uloom and reviewing its basis and the evidence cited in support of it, I cannot comment on the fatwa itself. What I propose to do is to discuss the reports I have seen, and then I will look at the case of a woman raped by her father-in-law and the effect of such a situation on her marriage.
Basis of the fatwa
The reports mention that the fatwa is based on the fact that the rape was a conjugal, sexual relation between Imrana and her father-in-law, and this makes it forbidden for her to be married to her husband. The reports quote certain spokespersons as saying that it does not matter that the relationship was by consent or compulsion.
If the reports are accurate, then we say that those who issued the fatwa must have taken as their basis Verse 22 of Surah 4 of the Quran, entitled Women, which may be translated as follows: ``Do not marry women whom your fathers have previously married, unless it be a thing of the past. Surely, that is an indecent, abominable and evil practice.`` (Verse 22.) It has to be said, however, that the Arabic word nakaha, which is used in the verse for marriage, is nowadays more often used in spoken Arabic to refer to sex, rather than marriage, but in official documents it continues to signify marriage. However, Quranic statements must be understood and interpreted according to the common usage by native Arabic speakers during the Prophet’s lifetime. We know for certain that this word was used in spoken and written Arabic to refer to marriage. In all other instances in the Quran, it is only used to mean marriage. Therefore, it must be treated as such, and we say that the verse refers only to marital relations.
Thus, all Muslim schools of thought are unanimous that a man cannot marry his father’s former wife. There is no question about this. Scholars, however, differ as to whether a man can marry a woman with whom his father had committed adultery, but this is not relevant to the present case.
It is important also to look at the above Quranic verse and its construction in order to understand its full significance. The word nakahai, or marry, is used twice in the verse, but it is used first in the present tense, which in Arabic signifies the present and the future, while it is used in the past tense in the second instance. Thus it prohibits the initiation of marriage with a woman who was previously married to one’s father. In other words, the woman’s relationship with the father is over, either because she is divorced, or the father has died. In any case she remains unlawful for his son to marry.
Applicability to Imrana’s case
It cannot be overemphasised that the verse speaks about marital relations, and their initiation. As such, it is totally inapplicable to the case in hand, because Imrana was never in any sort of relationship with her father-in-law prior to her marriage. What happened between them came later, after she has been in a valid marital relationship with her husband to whom she has given five children. Therefore, there is no question about the validity of her marriage.
Moving in with the rapist
Most infuriating is the suggestion carried in news reports that some scholars are saying that Imrana should, or could move in with her father-in-law, or may marry him. I seriously doubt that this has been said by any scholar worthy of the name. The Quranic verse next to the one we have quoted above gives a list of the women Muslims are not allowed to marry in any circumstances. The list includes: ``The wives of your own begotten sons.`` (4:23) These are again totally forbidden for Muslims to marry in any circumstances. Is it possible that someone who has any knowledge of Islamic family law could suggest that now that the father-in-law has raped Imrana, he can marry her? Can it be true that anyone imagines that the crime of rape could nullify a ruling by God, stated in His book, the Quran? The Prophet says that no right can accrue as a result of an offence or wrongdoing. Here it is suggested that a prohibition by God Himself is set aside as a result of such wrongdoing. The fatwa is absurd.
#100 Posted by googenschlaugen on July 2, 2005 10:35:12 am
{``the suffering witch can still feel the revolting smell of faeces in her mouth``}
Yup. That sounds like Semen Asha.
Yup. That sounds like Semen Asha.
#99 Posted by ballukhan on July 2, 2005 5:46:56 am
``Who are these Darul-Uloom Deoband, AIMWPLB and AIMPLB? Who selected/elected them? Are they the representative of muslims in india? Can someone answer this?
In u.s. the district attorney can start with prosecution even if the victim doesn`t file FIR, can it happen in india too?
By their actions indian muslims are just becoming a laughing stock.``
I do not understand why the press is going to these uneducated mullahs and getting their opinions and fatwas..........these ulemas have no authority at all........neither spiritual nor temporal..............they are just mullahs who want to attract some attention and then make some money by claiming themselves to be saviours of IMs.............and the press is also watching the fun.........it is just like some shankaracharya trying to become an alternate authority on Criminal Jurisprudence...............
In u.s. the district attorney can start with prosecution even if the victim doesn`t file FIR, can it happen in india too?
By their actions indian muslims are just becoming a laughing stock.``
I do not understand why the press is going to these uneducated mullahs and getting their opinions and fatwas..........these ulemas have no authority at all........neither spiritual nor temporal..............they are just mullahs who want to attract some attention and then make some money by claiming themselves to be saviours of IMs.............and the press is also watching the fun.........it is just like some shankaracharya trying to become an alternate authority on Criminal Jurisprudence...............
#98 Posted by cayenne on July 2, 2005 4:52:17 am
YES.YES.YES.ALL WOMEN ARE WITCHES.ENOUGH SAID.LET`S MOVE ON.
#97 Posted by cayenne on July 2, 2005 1:53:44 am
People in India are doing productive things , while the self-proclaimed `witch` who wrote this article is also , assumedly, indian.What a shame!.She behaves just like a pak.Why doesn`t she move there??...........
BBC News
Last Updated: Friday, 1 July, 2005, 16:28 GMT 17:28 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Delhi metro goes under the city
All set for Saturday`s inauguration
The first fully underground phase of Delhi`s Metro rail network is due to be launched on Saturday.
The 11km (seven-mile) line connects the heart of the capital with the old city.
Delhi`s hi-tech metro system was launched in 2002, with the first section using elevated tracks.
The system, which will eventually cover 60km, is seen as the answer to Delhi`s traffic problems and it is also hoped it will lower air pollution levels.
``This was the most difficult and formidable section to build because of the tunnelling involved in the construction,`` Delhi Metro Rail Corporation chief E Sreedharan told journalists.
A large part of the line is built under old Delhi, which contains buildings from the 17th century Mughal empire.
The entire line runs underground
Line 2 of the Delhi Metro connects the main government area with the commercial hub of Connaught Place before heading north to old Delhi and Delhi University.
The stretch, which has some of the city`s most congested streets, will be covered in 13 minutes.
Hi-tech system
Experts describe it as a remarkable engineering feat, built at a cost of 22 billion rupees ($506m).
The system is fully air-conditioned and the stations are equipped with computerised ticketing systems dispensing smart cards.
The next 32km stretch of the Metro - the system`s third line - is due to open in December.
There are plans are on to extend the network in time for the 2010 Commonwealth Games being hosted in the city.
BBC News
Last Updated: Friday, 1 July, 2005, 16:28 GMT 17:28 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Delhi metro goes under the city
All set for Saturday`s inauguration
The first fully underground phase of Delhi`s Metro rail network is due to be launched on Saturday.
The 11km (seven-mile) line connects the heart of the capital with the old city.
Delhi`s hi-tech metro system was launched in 2002, with the first section using elevated tracks.
The system, which will eventually cover 60km, is seen as the answer to Delhi`s traffic problems and it is also hoped it will lower air pollution levels.
``This was the most difficult and formidable section to build because of the tunnelling involved in the construction,`` Delhi Metro Rail Corporation chief E Sreedharan told journalists.
A large part of the line is built under old Delhi, which contains buildings from the 17th century Mughal empire.
The entire line runs underground
Line 2 of the Delhi Metro connects the main government area with the commercial hub of Connaught Place before heading north to old Delhi and Delhi University.
The stretch, which has some of the city`s most congested streets, will be covered in 13 minutes.
Hi-tech system
Experts describe it as a remarkable engineering feat, built at a cost of 22 billion rupees ($506m).
The system is fully air-conditioned and the stations are equipped with computerised ticketing systems dispensing smart cards.
The next 32km stretch of the Metro - the system`s third line - is due to open in December.
There are plans are on to extend the network in time for the 2010 Commonwealth Games being hosted in the city.
#96 Posted by cayenne on July 2, 2005 1:02:45 am
Re: # 95
googen......welcome back!!.Don`t get involved with these witches.You placate them, they will take advantage of your kindness and invade your space and cast a hex over you.Don`t say i didn`t warn ye.Throw a few pieces of garlic on the floor and get outta this board before you can count to three.
googen......welcome back!!.Don`t get involved with these witches.You placate them, they will take advantage of your kindness and invade your space and cast a hex over you.Don`t say i didn`t warn ye.Throw a few pieces of garlic on the floor and get outta this board before you can count to three.
#95 Posted by googenschlaugen on July 1, 2005 9:00:09 pm
There is no need for separate laws for Muslims in India or anywhere else. It is demeaning and unfair to Indian Muslims and makes a mockery of justice in India. It`s about time the Indian government became firm on this stupid issue.
Salim
Salim
#94 Posted by googenschlaugen on July 1, 2005 8:56:42 pm
Farzana #86, You obviously missed the preamble to my post that said ``Most women are not witches.`` Please don`t take my anger so personally, it was not meant for you. It was intended to expose the overplayed feminazi type of 70s feminine behavior exhibited by some Chowk females. These are the same witches who have expressed their contempt for you and your literary abilities. Not that I want to start a cat fight, but....
Salim
Salim
#92 Posted by kannaraja on July 1, 2005 11:40:43 am
Re: # 89
Netizen: Completely agree with you. Even though I am from India I do not have a clue what`s going on here, will the criminal court arrest the rapist? Why is every one talking about the victim, what she is supposed to do etc? what have they done with the perpetrator so far?
I pity with her, inspite of being the victim she is being told/pressured to act accordingly.
Even though I come from Old city HYD I am not aware of these sharia courts when I was there, may be I was naive in my late teens/early twenties
Raja
Netizen: Completely agree with you. Even though I am from India I do not have a clue what`s going on here, will the criminal court arrest the rapist? Why is every one talking about the victim, what she is supposed to do etc? what have they done with the perpetrator so far?
I pity with her, inspite of being the victim she is being told/pressured to act accordingly.
Even though I come from Old city HYD I am not aware of these sharia courts when I was there, may be I was naive in my late teens/early twenties
Raja
#91 Posted by HP on July 1, 2005 9:35:07 am
FV’s Inspiration! :)
property dispute in Mumbai? Or maybe you just don`t like somebody? Don`t worry, help is at hand. You can easily call on the services of the local mafia to have matters turned to your advantage or - better still - engage a competent black magician!
These days most foreign visitors to Mumbai are amazed at the contrasts they encounter. Visually the city exudes an overall aura of neglect, filth and decay, and yet business is booming like never before.
Though the middle and upper classes of the city`s 14 million strong population are enjoying unprecedented prosperity, the number of slum dwellers grows by the minute. As a result, posh residential areas are increasingly dotted with slum settlements, occupying every unclaimed inch of Mumbai`s expensive earth.
But the contradictions run even deeper. In a city which prides itself on its ``modernity``, black magicians and exorcists still do a roaring trade.
Just ask Sunita Mehta, who found out the hard way. Sunita runs a small furniture shop in a busy street in Central Mumbai, located in her own, spacious, if crumbling building. Given Mumbai`s spiralling property prices - the third highest in the world after Tokyo and Hong Kong - the building is worth several million US Dollars. A square foot of office space in Mumbai can cost up to US$1,200. Mumbai`s various mafia gangs are highly active in the property business, often `persuading` landlords to part from their properties for a song.
The hard-pressed landlords may in turn call on the services of a rival gang to get rid of the thugs. Reports of suspected mafia men found dead in some dark alley are all too common. While in many property disputes the mafia are called in, sometimes a more subtle approach may be used, involving-black magic.
Sunita`s troubles began shortly after she had inherited the building from an aunt. A family of relatives, who were also living in the building and who felt unjustly left out in the aunt`s will, started pressuring her to sign away the property. ``They would come to me with a prepared statement and a pen in hand, and bully me to sign``, recounts Sunita. This went on for several months. When it became obvious that Sunita wouldn`t budge, the family called in a Hindu tantrik, or magician.
In the beginning, Sunita didn`t realise what had happened to her. Suddenly she would lapse into a violent, shaking fit and faint, or occasionally speak in a man`s voice. ``This happened mostly on the days of the full and new moon, as these are the days, when spells are most effective``, says Sunita, still shuddering at the memories. ``Very often, I had horrendous nightmares, in which a voice tried to force me to sign the paper.``
Things seemed to get out of hand when Sunita`s body suddenly started to ooze a greenish liquid during the fits. Everything else might be dismissed as the workings of an overactive mind, but this? By now, even Sunita`s parents felt that some strange, evil force was at work. Initially her father, a microbiologist, had sought a more `rational` explanation. That magic was involved became obvious when Sunita discovered a tiny pack of yellow rice and nails (items commonly used in India as part of magic rituals) under her mattress.
To break the spell Sunita called on the services of a tantrik who advertised in a local paper. ``But``, says Sunita, ``when he realised that I was really desperate he tried to fleece me. He asked for 30,000 rupees (almost US$1,000) for some spell-breaking rituals``. Sunita declined.
Next, by `word of mouth`, she found somebody less mercenary, yet very efficient. ``A simple, ordinary looking man, who gets up every morning at four to pray, then attends his `office` with all those weird things around - skulls and stuff``, Sunita elaborates. The tantrik, who shies away from publicity, and even more so from interviews, works purely on personal recommendation. ``Genuine magicians don`t advertise``, Sunita explains.
After a few exorcism sessions, Sunita began to feel much better. The fits and nightmares became less intense. In one memorable session the tantrik prepared some small bags full of supposedly magical items - chicken bones, nails and limes amongst other things - and proceeded to work on Sunita`s spell. Then, all of a sudden, Sunita went into a violent shaking fit. Her mouth opened and ``some limes with nails stuck in them came out. On one of the limes the Marathi word for `ill health` was neatly spelled out with nails. [Marathi is Mumbai`s local language]. On another, the nails formed an X-like sign, a magical symbol of destruction``.
But there was worse to come. ``After the limes had appeared``, Sunita continues, ``suddenly, a goblin-like little figure, about 5-6 cms high, pushed its way out through my mouth. It was very difficult to get out. Finally, the figure kind of jumped out of my mouth and hopped across the room.`` The figure then disappeared into one of the tantrik`s magical bags, only to be destroyed there. All in all, three identical looking goblins came out, ``ugly little creatures, each with round, permanently rotating eyes, a goatee-like beard and one very long, curved tooth.``
Sunita`s experiences could very well be dismissed as symptoms of schizophrenic hallucination - had not her parents also been present at the session. ``I even helped pull one of these horrible figures out of her mouth after it had got stuck``, says Sunita`s mother, a middle-aged, down-to-earth business woman, still shuddering at the memory.
But the ordeal was not yet over. The tantrik cautioned that the spell was only partly broken. He asked Sunita to visit a particular dargah, the tomb of a Muslim saint, reputed miraculously to drive out demons and break spells. This particular dargah, Hazrat Pir Syed Ali Datar Dargah, is situated near the Mumbai docks, in the run-down suburb of Mazgaon. For miles slum settlements and filthy, pot-holed streets dominate the landscape.
After Sunita and her mother reached the dargah, Sunita had only to go through a very simple ritual. She put both hands on the saint`s tomb, lowered her head and prayed with all her will - no more. Then she left the dargah. On the way home in a taxi, Sunita`s final healing occurred. ``All of a sudden my body started convulsing and shaking. Then I felt a black and very dense shadow, some kind of entity, slowly leave by body. It was as though it was being sucked out of me by some higher force. All the while I was shaking and screaming. In the end, when the `thing` had left me, I was so exhausted that I collapsed in the taxi.`` The proceedings even got the better of the poor taxi driver, who was so frightened he could hardly steer straight. No doubt in future he will think twice before picking up strange people outside the dargah!
Since that day Sunita has been living virtually untroubled. ``My relatives continue casting their spells, as they cannot neglect the spirits they have summoned. Otherwise they would be destroyed themselves``, explains Sunita. But now, she insists, such spells have no more effect on her.
Judging by the number of people visiting the dargah, Sunita`s case is just one of many. On any day, dozens of supposedly bewitched or possessed men and women can be seen praying for deliverance. Some rock and sway rhythmically, as if gripped by the spirit of some second-class Elvis Presley impersonator. Others go berserk, roll across the floor and scream obscenities as if transported to the local fish market.
Occasionally somebody will run from the dargah to the nearby seashore for a wild wallow and splash. The water at this particular spot - filthy as it may be - is supposed to have a healing effect on the bewitched. The spot lies right next to a breakerÆs yard in which a couple of giant freighters are being dismantled.
It is noteworthy, though, that some of the `possessed` seem to go into fits when somebody with a camera, especially a wide-eyed foreigner, shows up. Turn your back on them and they become as normal and sober as your average Jehovah`s Witness. These folks might well be employed by the dargah to enhance its ``reputation``. Anyhow, there`s never a dull moment.
Sunita, too, has buried the demons of the past. She is currently writing a novel around the subject of black magic, based largely on her own experiences. If she manages to record only half of them credibly on paper, Stephen King may soon have some new competition.
The article appeared in:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/
property dispute in Mumbai? Or maybe you just don`t like somebody? Don`t worry, help is at hand. You can easily call on the services of the local mafia to have matters turned to your advantage or - better still - engage a competent black magician!
These days most foreign visitors to Mumbai are amazed at the contrasts they encounter. Visually the city exudes an overall aura of neglect, filth and decay, and yet business is booming like never before.
Though the middle and upper classes of the city`s 14 million strong population are enjoying unprecedented prosperity, the number of slum dwellers grows by the minute. As a result, posh residential areas are increasingly dotted with slum settlements, occupying every unclaimed inch of Mumbai`s expensive earth.
But the contradictions run even deeper. In a city which prides itself on its ``modernity``, black magicians and exorcists still do a roaring trade.
Just ask Sunita Mehta, who found out the hard way. Sunita runs a small furniture shop in a busy street in Central Mumbai, located in her own, spacious, if crumbling building. Given Mumbai`s spiralling property prices - the third highest in the world after Tokyo and Hong Kong - the building is worth several million US Dollars. A square foot of office space in Mumbai can cost up to US$1,200. Mumbai`s various mafia gangs are highly active in the property business, often `persuading` landlords to part from their properties for a song.
The hard-pressed landlords may in turn call on the services of a rival gang to get rid of the thugs. Reports of suspected mafia men found dead in some dark alley are all too common. While in many property disputes the mafia are called in, sometimes a more subtle approach may be used, involving-black magic.
Sunita`s troubles began shortly after she had inherited the building from an aunt. A family of relatives, who were also living in the building and who felt unjustly left out in the aunt`s will, started pressuring her to sign away the property. ``They would come to me with a prepared statement and a pen in hand, and bully me to sign``, recounts Sunita. This went on for several months. When it became obvious that Sunita wouldn`t budge, the family called in a Hindu tantrik, or magician.
In the beginning, Sunita didn`t realise what had happened to her. Suddenly she would lapse into a violent, shaking fit and faint, or occasionally speak in a man`s voice. ``This happened mostly on the days of the full and new moon, as these are the days, when spells are most effective``, says Sunita, still shuddering at the memories. ``Very often, I had horrendous nightmares, in which a voice tried to force me to sign the paper.``
Things seemed to get out of hand when Sunita`s body suddenly started to ooze a greenish liquid during the fits. Everything else might be dismissed as the workings of an overactive mind, but this? By now, even Sunita`s parents felt that some strange, evil force was at work. Initially her father, a microbiologist, had sought a more `rational` explanation. That magic was involved became obvious when Sunita discovered a tiny pack of yellow rice and nails (items commonly used in India as part of magic rituals) under her mattress.
To break the spell Sunita called on the services of a tantrik who advertised in a local paper. ``But``, says Sunita, ``when he realised that I was really desperate he tried to fleece me. He asked for 30,000 rupees (almost US$1,000) for some spell-breaking rituals``. Sunita declined.
Next, by `word of mouth`, she found somebody less mercenary, yet very efficient. ``A simple, ordinary looking man, who gets up every morning at four to pray, then attends his `office` with all those weird things around - skulls and stuff``, Sunita elaborates. The tantrik, who shies away from publicity, and even more so from interviews, works purely on personal recommendation. ``Genuine magicians don`t advertise``, Sunita explains.
After a few exorcism sessions, Sunita began to feel much better. The fits and nightmares became less intense. In one memorable session the tantrik prepared some small bags full of supposedly magical items - chicken bones, nails and limes amongst other things - and proceeded to work on Sunita`s spell. Then, all of a sudden, Sunita went into a violent shaking fit. Her mouth opened and ``some limes with nails stuck in them came out. On one of the limes the Marathi word for `ill health` was neatly spelled out with nails. [Marathi is Mumbai`s local language]. On another, the nails formed an X-like sign, a magical symbol of destruction``.
But there was worse to come. ``After the limes had appeared``, Sunita continues, ``suddenly, a goblin-like little figure, about 5-6 cms high, pushed its way out through my mouth. It was very difficult to get out. Finally, the figure kind of jumped out of my mouth and hopped across the room.`` The figure then disappeared into one of the tantrik`s magical bags, only to be destroyed there. All in all, three identical looking goblins came out, ``ugly little creatures, each with round, permanently rotating eyes, a goatee-like beard and one very long, curved tooth.``
Sunita`s experiences could very well be dismissed as symptoms of schizophrenic hallucination - had not her parents also been present at the session. ``I even helped pull one of these horrible figures out of her mouth after it had got stuck``, says Sunita`s mother, a middle-aged, down-to-earth business woman, still shuddering at the memory.
But the ordeal was not yet over. The tantrik cautioned that the spell was only partly broken. He asked Sunita to visit a particular dargah, the tomb of a Muslim saint, reputed miraculously to drive out demons and break spells. This particular dargah, Hazrat Pir Syed Ali Datar Dargah, is situated near the Mumbai docks, in the run-down suburb of Mazgaon. For miles slum settlements and filthy, pot-holed streets dominate the landscape.
After Sunita and her mother reached the dargah, Sunita had only to go through a very simple ritual. She put both hands on the saint`s tomb, lowered her head and prayed with all her will - no more. Then she left the dargah. On the way home in a taxi, Sunita`s final healing occurred. ``All of a sudden my body started convulsing and shaking. Then I felt a black and very dense shadow, some kind of entity, slowly leave by body. It was as though it was being sucked out of me by some higher force. All the while I was shaking and screaming. In the end, when the `thing` had left me, I was so exhausted that I collapsed in the taxi.`` The proceedings even got the better of the poor taxi driver, who was so frightened he could hardly steer straight. No doubt in future he will think twice before picking up strange people outside the dargah!
Since that day Sunita has been living virtually untroubled. ``My relatives continue casting their spells, as they cannot neglect the spirits they have summoned. Otherwise they would be destroyed themselves``, explains Sunita. But now, she insists, such spells have no more effect on her.
Judging by the number of people visiting the dargah, Sunita`s case is just one of many. On any day, dozens of supposedly bewitched or possessed men and women can be seen praying for deliverance. Some rock and sway rhythmically, as if gripped by the spirit of some second-class Elvis Presley impersonator. Others go berserk, roll across the floor and scream obscenities as if transported to the local fish market.
Occasionally somebody will run from the dargah to the nearby seashore for a wild wallow and splash. The water at this particular spot - filthy as it may be - is supposed to have a healing effect on the bewitched. The spot lies right next to a breakerÆs yard in which a couple of giant freighters are being dismantled.
It is noteworthy, though, that some of the `possessed` seem to go into fits when somebody with a camera, especially a wide-eyed foreigner, shows up. Turn your back on them and they become as normal and sober as your average Jehovah`s Witness. These folks might well be employed by the dargah to enhance its ``reputation``. Anyhow, there`s never a dull moment.
Sunita, too, has buried the demons of the past. She is currently writing a novel around the subject of black magic, based largely on her own experiences. If she manages to record only half of them credibly on paper, Stephen King may soon have some new competition.
The article appeared in:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/
#90 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2005 8:27:13 am
Netizen #89
Good post. Any muslims who agree with these half-brained mullahs who would force this woman to divorce her husband and marry the rapist have clearly taken leave of their senses.
Any muslims who, despite this example, still dont understand why ``shariah courts`` have no place in civilized society (being in fact the relics of primitive kingdoms of centuries ago, and with no basis in the Quran anyway) have no sense to begin with.
Good post. Any muslims who agree with these half-brained mullahs who would force this woman to divorce her husband and marry the rapist have clearly taken leave of their senses.
Any muslims who, despite this example, still dont understand why ``shariah courts`` have no place in civilized society (being in fact the relics of primitive kingdoms of centuries ago, and with no basis in the Quran anyway) have no sense to begin with.
#89 Posted by Netizen on July 1, 2005 8:03:55 am
Re: # 87
Who are these Darul-Uloom Deoband, AIMWPLB and AIMPLB? Who selected/elected them? Are they the representative of muslims in india? Can someone answer this?
In u.s. the district attorney can start with prosecution even if the victim doesn`t file FIR, can it happen in india too?
By their actions indian muslims are just becoming a laughing stock. I read an article whereby according to the fatwa, the father-in-law will now be the husband, the husband will become son and the chidren from the original husband, no idea(so far).
How can an average muslim tolerate this non-sense?
Who are these Darul-Uloom Deoband, AIMWPLB and AIMPLB? Who selected/elected them? Are they the representative of muslims in india? Can someone answer this?
In u.s. the district attorney can start with prosecution even if the victim doesn`t file FIR, can it happen in india too?
By their actions indian muslims are just becoming a laughing stock. I read an article whereby according to the fatwa, the father-in-law will now be the husband, the husband will become son and the chidren from the original husband, no idea(so far).
How can an average muslim tolerate this non-sense?
#88 Posted by jang on July 1, 2005 7:32:25 am
women are witches because they have perfected the craft of attaining their goals thru manipulations, while men perfected the art of wielding the club. history is repleate with women wielding power ..Kaikeyi of ramayana, Noorjehan. for men the operations are in physical or deductively logical realms, while women use the mystey route. that is kind of out of rules-of-the game as far as men are concerned.
so from eastwick to ernakulum, one got to be wary.
so from eastwick to ernakulum, one got to be wary.
#87 Posted by FarzanaVersey on July 1, 2005 2:41:08 am
Although I wish the community `leaders` stayed away, this bit of news is still a ray of hope...
The Asian Age, July 1
2 Muslim panels reject fatwa
Lucknow, June 30: The All-India Muslim Women’s Personal Law Board (AIMWPLB) on Thursday rejected the ``fatwa`` issued by the Darul-Uloom Deoband against Imrana, who was raped by her father-in-law. The All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) is also issuing a formal denial that it had ever supported the ``fatwa``.
Imrana, however, succumbed to social pressures on Thursday and told reporters in Muzaffarnagar that she was not ready for life beyond the Shariat and would obey the ``fatwa`` issued by the Deoband Mufti which restrains her from living with her husband after being raped by her father-in-law.
A delegation of the National Commission of Women, led by its chairperson Girija Vyas, met Imrana in Muzaffarnagar, but the meeting remained ``inconclusive``. Ms Girija Vyas later said that the commission wanted a speedy trial in the matter so that justice could be done.
The AIMWPLB, on the other hand, convened an open panchayat in Lucknow which was attended by board members, social activists and women clerics (alima). The panchayat rejected the Darul-Uloom ``fatwa``, saying it was against the ``sprit and essence of Islam, which gives equal rights to women.`` Members felt the ``fatwa`` was a result of misrepresentation of the provisions of the Shariat and was discriminatory in nature. ``The victim has been further victimised by the ``fatwa``.
The clerics have failed to differentiate between sex by consent (zina) and rape by force (zina-bil-jabr). The fact that the AIMPLB has also distanced itself from the Darul-Uloom fatwa proves that the fatwa is not in complete accordance with Shariat laws,`` AIMWPLB president Shaista Amber told this newspaper.
Ms Amber also demanded action against two AIMPLB members, Maulana Khalid Rashid Firangi Mahali and Begum Naseem Iktedar Ali, who had earlier announced their support of the Deoband fatwa.
The AIMWPLB also professed its full support to Imrana and said that if she wished she could live with her husband and children. The board members would provide all support and assistance to her in this. The board also pleaded that the ``strictest punishment`` be given to the rapist father-in-law, who had ``defied every norm of humanity and religion with this act``.
In a related development, the AIMPLB issued a statement. ``The AIMPLB has not endorsed the Deoband edict. Whatever was said by two members of the board in Lucknow on Monday was not the official stand of the board,`` said AIMPLB spokesman Qasim Rasool Iliyas. He said the Imrana case was full of complexities and the board was still studying the matter. It has not yet taken any official stand on it.
Meanwhile, several women’s organisations, led by the All-India Democratic Women’s Association, staged a demonstration in Muzaffarnagar on Thursday to protest against the injustice to Imrana and to demand strict punishment for the rapist father-in-law.
The Asian Age, July 1
2 Muslim panels reject fatwa
Lucknow, June 30: The All-India Muslim Women’s Personal Law Board (AIMWPLB) on Thursday rejected the ``fatwa`` issued by the Darul-Uloom Deoband against Imrana, who was raped by her father-in-law. The All-India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) is also issuing a formal denial that it had ever supported the ``fatwa``.
Imrana, however, succumbed to social pressures on Thursday and told reporters in Muzaffarnagar that she was not ready for life beyond the Shariat and would obey the ``fatwa`` issued by the Deoband Mufti which restrains her from living with her husband after being raped by her father-in-law.
A delegation of the National Commission of Women, led by its chairperson Girija Vyas, met Imrana in Muzaffarnagar, but the meeting remained ``inconclusive``. Ms Girija Vyas later said that the commission wanted a speedy trial in the matter so that justice could be done.
The AIMWPLB, on the other hand, convened an open panchayat in Lucknow which was attended by board members, social activists and women clerics (alima). The panchayat rejected the Darul-Uloom ``fatwa``, saying it was against the ``sprit and essence of Islam, which gives equal rights to women.`` Members felt the ``fatwa`` was a result of misrepresentation of the provisions of the Shariat and was discriminatory in nature. ``The victim has been further victimised by the ``fatwa``.
The clerics have failed to differentiate between sex by consent (zina) and rape by force (zina-bil-jabr). The fact that the AIMPLB has also distanced itself from the Darul-Uloom fatwa proves that the fatwa is not in complete accordance with Shariat laws,`` AIMWPLB president Shaista Amber told this newspaper.
Ms Amber also demanded action against two AIMPLB members, Maulana Khalid Rashid Firangi Mahali and Begum Naseem Iktedar Ali, who had earlier announced their support of the Deoband fatwa.
The AIMWPLB also professed its full support to Imrana and said that if she wished she could live with her husband and children. The board members would provide all support and assistance to her in this. The board also pleaded that the ``strictest punishment`` be given to the rapist father-in-law, who had ``defied every norm of humanity and religion with this act``.
In a related development, the AIMPLB issued a statement. ``The AIMPLB has not endorsed the Deoband edict. Whatever was said by two members of the board in Lucknow on Monday was not the official stand of the board,`` said AIMPLB spokesman Qasim Rasool Iliyas. He said the Imrana case was full of complexities and the board was still studying the matter. It has not yet taken any official stand on it.
Meanwhile, several women’s organisations, led by the All-India Democratic Women’s Association, staged a demonstration in Muzaffarnagar on Thursday to protest against the injustice to Imrana and to demand strict punishment for the rapist father-in-law.
#86 Posted by FarzanaVersey on July 1, 2005 2:37:08 am
There are people who read and people who think they have read…
Re. cultural romanticising, this is what I wrote: “Will the glitterati flock to Bihar in their search for a magic potion?...My anger does not mean that I am indulging in my own version of branding, but because a case has to be made against the cultural romanticising of the witch when for centuries she has been abused” I was positing a village woman like Pedki Devi(the Devi is not an honorific here, but a common name, like Rabri Devi…)and someone like Ipsita Roy.
- - -
#72 by kamath:
It is a long story, and not a pleasant one…suffice to say that I respect the space I write in.
- - -
#73 by BeeJay:
Thank you for sharing the eye-witness account.
- - -
#76 by jang:
Okay, those women were not on Ecstasy…but this business about having the bhoot in the body, ouija boards etc are common tools to alleviate boredom; they are not “formalisation of witchy behaviour”.
[women have a wide spectrum of witchy feelings ... som eare hidden under ``feminine intuition`` ;-) ]
I guess the woman who finds another’s lipstick on your collar (“I knew it!”) is a witch? She probably arranged for it to appear there, a red. pink, burgundy blotch…
- - -
#78 by kaurasach:
I do not know what prompted this response, but thank you. Re. your personal opinion, I always treat it as just that – one wo/man’s personal opinion.
About my aim being ‘controversy’, ideas that one does not agree with do sound controversial. Or a certain style of expression does…
You know Kylie Minogue, right? She sings. But people talk about her butt…her aim is to sing…there are words there that are sometimes saying something important, the voice can be either loud and clear or breathless, the music has its own rhythm…but they still talk about Kylie’s butt – some only about that.
I think you get the drift…
- - -
#81:
[It is not sagacious to irk a ``witch`` for her broomstick has two ends, and only one of them is blunt.......]
But not blunted. Not stunted.
#80 by ozerkhalid:
[Therefore Farzana what seems like “sorcery”, conveniently tagged on by a dismally myopic society is “sanctity” to “witches”. Sorcery or sanctity? -surely two sides of the same coin dissected into separateness by prejudiced-based social labelling ?]
A whore skilful at her job is sanctified for it; a woman outside the bordello realm who arches her sensuality to greater heights is deemed insatiable…her every move seen as cunning.
Trick or treat? The lines get blurred…no one looks beneath the Halloween masks.
[But Farzana the nagging question perseveres: do these Cinderella`s really have a “home” ? Do they not “homelessly” tread the alleyways of life in search for an unattainable sanctuary ?]
I had written ‘home’ in single quotes for precisely this reason. I talked about finding “their way back”…they start with dreams and return to them. Reality will always be, what you called “the outside, the fringes, the periphery” of comfy social landmarks”.
[I assume that you also walk barefoot? For the streaks of blood and their deep wine-red trail leave you inspired even more? Perhaps even energised ?]
My feet are unshod even as I type this. Yes, in that metaphorical terrain of seeking, rather than seeking out (for can there be the certitude of a destination for dreams? Can dreams be trapped within the confines of a stamped ticket?), I walk barefoot. The walking becomes the inspiration, the walking and the falling. Energised? You got me there! The more I sweat, the more I seek the warmth…or is it the heat?
I am sounding like a witch all right…and one could go on…but before your tardiness and my absence meet again, let me thank you for a challenging interaction. I do find this kind of thing challenging, where what might appear as a flimsy line is stretched and probed and taken beyond its limits and beneath its skin. And we did this without quoting scholars.
Your “feline curiosity” will be sated soon. You know where to find ‘me’, the one suspended by the thread of words. One seeks an anchor not when the seas are calm, but when the waters are choppy. For me, therefore, it is almost always high tide.
- - -
#83 by palam123456789:
[Most women are not witches. The only ones I suspect of being witches are those who are blatantly feminazi, bra-burning, sailor swearing, chest thumping, beard scratching, and nasty smelling ChuRayls]
Salim:
In the past you have had the courtesy to conduct yourself with propriety on my boards. I urge you to keep that tradition alive…there is a special forum to discuss the issues you wish to. Personal comments about other Chowkies is a strict no-no here… ask yourself this: would we not benefit, would you not benefit more if you held forth on some element of witchcraft or sorcery or even coquetry?
I would much rather you expressed your views on these. Let me initiate you into the rites of passage myself…your description of witches is so 70s. I have said this often, feminism is not about herded cattle, all branded in the same manner. While we come with our different histories, we develop ideological leanings along the way. Nazism of any kind should only be a problem if the person feels persecuted.
Most of us women who do stand up for ourselves (note, I have not said ‘rights’, for I do believe that if the individual identity is secure, then one commands respect anyway), do not always swear or thump our chests, or scratch beards or burn bras…and if some do, it is a personal choice which they have every right to exercise, or exorcise.
Women today who have the power to buy and choose and enjoy their lingerie wouldn’t dream of burning it. You have listed old stereotypes. Is it because they are comforting in their familiarity? As for “nasty smelling”…that is the peril of trying to get too close. Or your nose is playing tricks. Perhaps that is the reason you have failed to notice the ardour of Elizabeth Arden that sets our pulse points aflame…
Re. cultural romanticising, this is what I wrote: “Will the glitterati flock to Bihar in their search for a magic potion?...My anger does not mean that I am indulging in my own version of branding, but because a case has to be made against the cultural romanticising of the witch when for centuries she has been abused” I was positing a village woman like Pedki Devi(the Devi is not an honorific here, but a common name, like Rabri Devi…)and someone like Ipsita Roy.
- - -
#72 by kamath:
It is a long story, and not a pleasant one…suffice to say that I respect the space I write in.
- - -
#73 by BeeJay:
Thank you for sharing the eye-witness account.
- - -
#76 by jang:
Okay, those women were not on Ecstasy…but this business about having the bhoot in the body, ouija boards etc are common tools to alleviate boredom; they are not “formalisation of witchy behaviour”.
[women have a wide spectrum of witchy feelings ... som eare hidden under ``feminine intuition`` ;-) ]
I guess the woman who finds another’s lipstick on your collar (“I knew it!”) is a witch? She probably arranged for it to appear there, a red. pink, burgundy blotch…
- - -
#78 by kaurasach:
I do not know what prompted this response, but thank you. Re. your personal opinion, I always treat it as just that – one wo/man’s personal opinion.
About my aim being ‘controversy’, ideas that one does not agree with do sound controversial. Or a certain style of expression does…
You know Kylie Minogue, right? She sings. But people talk about her butt…her aim is to sing…there are words there that are sometimes saying something important, the voice can be either loud and clear or breathless, the music has its own rhythm…but they still talk about Kylie’s butt – some only about that.
I think you get the drift…
- - -
#81:
[It is not sagacious to irk a ``witch`` for her broomstick has two ends, and only one of them is blunt.......]
But not blunted. Not stunted.
#80 by ozerkhalid:
[Therefore Farzana what seems like “sorcery”, conveniently tagged on by a dismally myopic society is “sanctity” to “witches”. Sorcery or sanctity? -surely two sides of the same coin dissected into separateness by prejudiced-based social labelling ?]
A whore skilful at her job is sanctified for it; a woman outside the bordello realm who arches her sensuality to greater heights is deemed insatiable…her every move seen as cunning.
Trick or treat? The lines get blurred…no one looks beneath the Halloween masks.
[But Farzana the nagging question perseveres: do these Cinderella`s really have a “home” ? Do they not “homelessly” tread the alleyways of life in search for an unattainable sanctuary ?]
I had written ‘home’ in single quotes for precisely this reason. I talked about finding “their way back”…they start with dreams and return to them. Reality will always be, what you called “the outside, the fringes, the periphery” of comfy social landmarks”.
[I assume that you also walk barefoot? For the streaks of blood and their deep wine-red trail leave you inspired even more? Perhaps even energised ?]
My feet are unshod even as I type this. Yes, in that metaphorical terrain of seeking, rather than seeking out (for can there be the certitude of a destination for dreams? Can dreams be trapped within the confines of a stamped ticket?), I walk barefoot. The walking becomes the inspiration, the walking and the falling. Energised? You got me there! The more I sweat, the more I seek the warmth…or is it the heat?
I am sounding like a witch all right…and one could go on…but before your tardiness and my absence meet again, let me thank you for a challenging interaction. I do find this kind of thing challenging, where what might appear as a flimsy line is stretched and probed and taken beyond its limits and beneath its skin. And we did this without quoting scholars.
Your “feline curiosity” will be sated soon. You know where to find ‘me’, the one suspended by the thread of words. One seeks an anchor not when the seas are calm, but when the waters are choppy. For me, therefore, it is almost always high tide.
- - -
#83 by palam123456789:
[Most women are not witches. The only ones I suspect of being witches are those who are blatantly feminazi, bra-burning, sailor swearing, chest thumping, beard scratching, and nasty smelling ChuRayls]
Salim:
In the past you have had the courtesy to conduct yourself with propriety on my boards. I urge you to keep that tradition alive…there is a special forum to discuss the issues you wish to. Personal comments about other Chowkies is a strict no-no here… ask yourself this: would we not benefit, would you not benefit more if you held forth on some element of witchcraft or sorcery or even coquetry?
I would much rather you expressed your views on these. Let me initiate you into the rites of passage myself…your description of witches is so 70s. I have said this often, feminism is not about herded cattle, all branded in the same manner. While we come with our different histories, we develop ideological leanings along the way. Nazism of any kind should only be a problem if the person feels persecuted.
Most of us women who do stand up for ourselves (note, I have not said ‘rights’, for I do believe that if the individual identity is secure, then one commands respect anyway), do not always swear or thump our chests, or scratch beards or burn bras…and if some do, it is a personal choice which they have every right to exercise, or exorcise.
Women today who have the power to buy and choose and enjoy their lingerie wouldn’t dream of burning it. You have listed old stereotypes. Is it because they are comforting in their familiarity? As for “nasty smelling”…that is the peril of trying to get too close. Or your nose is playing tricks. Perhaps that is the reason you have failed to notice the ardour of Elizabeth Arden that sets our pulse points aflame…
#85 Posted by cayenne on July 1, 2005 12:16:28 am
Re: # 83
All women are witches.Some of them are benign.Combined with penis envy, makes for the sorry state of men in this world, against the onslaught of these witches.That`s why the ancients held a tight rein and kept them penned in like cattle.Now we men have lost the fight.We`ve let the cat out of the bag.
All women are witches.Some of them are benign.Combined with penis envy, makes for the sorry state of men in this world, against the onslaught of these witches.That`s why the ancients held a tight rein and kept them penned in like cattle.Now we men have lost the fight.We`ve let the cat out of the bag.
#84 Posted by cayenne on July 1, 2005 12:02:49 am
Re: # 78
EEEEEEWWWW.......what happened to you???.Groveling like this??.Look in the mirror and slap yourself twice in the face to set yourself straight.
EEEEEEWWWW.......what happened to you???.Groveling like this??.Look in the mirror and slap yourself twice in the face to set yourself straight.
#81 Posted by OzerKhalid on June 30, 2005 6:04:21 pm
It is not sagacious to irk a ``witch`` for her broomstick has two ends, and only one of them is blunt.......
#80 Posted by OzerKhalid on June 30, 2005 5:25:58 pm
Farzana wrote “the certified witch of the fairytales is “sanctified” by her evil…
Therefore Farzana what seems like “sorcery”, conveniently tagged on by a dismally myopic society is “sanctity” to “witches”. Sorcery or sanctity? -surely two sides of the same coin dissected into separateness by prejudiced-based social labelling ?
Farzana further elucidates “but it is the Cinderella who becomes a threat, with her innocence, her dreams. Often, she has no shoes of iron – she walks barefoot on the glass and the trail of blood becomes the only landmark for her to find her way back ‘home’ “
But Farzana the nagging question perseveres: do these Cinderella`s really have a “home” ? Do they not “homelessly” tread the alleyways of life in search for an unattainable sanctuary ?
Since they are uprooted from their domiciles and ditched into the “outside, the fringes, the periphery” of comfy social landmarks ?
Surely Cinderella’s ``homelessly`` meaningful meandering across the maze of existence remains frost-bitten by the blood-streaked shards of glass upon which she trails ?
Farzana types “The latter-day Cinderellas who dare to dream meet this fate. I sometimes smile wryly when I am called a “bloody b!tch”, for I know that the symbolism has met reality right beneath my “feet”.
I assume that you also walk barefoot? For the streaks of blood and their deep wine-red trail leave you inspired even more? Perhaps even energised ?
You stipulate “there are enough real ghosts to talk and walk with in what passes for the actual world for me to imagine a cyber ghost would care to seek out my words in the deluge where not all ‘epics’ are epicurean…
Well let me assure you FV that this “cyber-ghost” has a feline curiosity and will internally strive to seek out “your” words- for in the deluge of his internal desolation your words seem even more epicurean…….
FV posits “by then I had heard whispers about your identity”
Careless “whispers” were they? Seldom healthy, often misleading ?
It is a cyber-pastime here at Chowk to speculate about my true identity...funny since it slowly unleafs itself through every word I type ? .....
“Having said that, I will have to refrain from indulging here in the last bits of your reply – it would fall in the category of an ilog or merely canonise me as ‘liqueur witch’!…perhaps, I might write about those momentous minutiae in the lonesome space I occasionally find anchor in”
If the ``momentous minutiae`` of your ship, no matter how high the tide, manages to “anchor in” please send a cyber-signal to my lighthouse for I will curiously be awaiting at the dock. Sitting expectantly on its bay.......
Lastly FV writes “your “plzzz” denotes the weight of ennui perking up at the thought of a past curiosity”
FV Why do you assume this curiosity is shelved in a transient and ephemeral past?
I can ``hopefully`` assure you It is perked up in the here and now…………………..
#79 Posted by Netizen on June 30, 2005 2:16:08 pm
Re: # 75
Palam
What happened b/t you and chowk staff. Why are you banned? I saw a similar post with your name in another thread but wasn`t sure whether it was from you. I never thought you would meet the same fate as avenger123, echoboom.....
Palam
What happened b/t you and chowk staff. Why are you banned? I saw a similar post with your name in another thread but wasn`t sure whether it was from you. I never thought you would meet the same fate as avenger123, echoboom.....
#78 Posted by kaurasach on June 30, 2005 11:02:21 am
Farzana Bibi,
I`ve been one of the interactors, unfortunately, that have been harsh with you or reacted to your articles and the content with like crudity. I shouldn`t have - not because you may be a lady - because I should be mature and a gentleman towards a woman - to a large extent.
In brief, you come across as a biased and dishonest writer. The writing is reflection of the author. Thus, many interactors have formed negative opinion of you alongwith your writings.
Your intentions in writings are not always clear and honest. Many suspect the aim is controversy; fame amongst a niche audience, special interest, etc. - which also inade verantly and naturally brings infamy among the rest.
Maybe it is weakness in your writing style. Or, may be it is indeed your true reflection. As a writer in public view, it is both the duty and right of the reader/interactor to oppose you/r work.
Still, it doesn`t warrant some of the tone of the responses to you.
Rgrds.
I`ve been one of the interactors, unfortunately, that have been harsh with you or reacted to your articles and the content with like crudity. I shouldn`t have - not because you may be a lady - because I should be mature and a gentleman towards a woman - to a large extent.
In brief, you come across as a biased and dishonest writer. The writing is reflection of the author. Thus, many interactors have formed negative opinion of you alongwith your writings.
Your intentions in writings are not always clear and honest. Many suspect the aim is controversy; fame amongst a niche audience, special interest, etc. - which also inade verantly and naturally brings infamy among the rest.
Maybe it is weakness in your writing style. Or, may be it is indeed your true reflection. As a writer in public view, it is both the duty and right of the reader/interactor to oppose you/r work.
Still, it doesn`t warrant some of the tone of the responses to you.
Rgrds.
#77 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2005 9:30:24 am
shoresahib #74 ha! ha! I didnt think I would ever see you go ballistic sarcastically. But seriously - the entire mukhtar mai episode speaks volumes of the characterless pakistani ``sahibs`` running the country on the one hand and the innate nobility and courage of the average Pakistani on the other.
#76 Posted by jang on June 30, 2005 8:57:52 am
FV
these women were not doing ecstacy...they were involved in a religous ritual, in which, some woman allows herself to be posseses by ``mahalxmi``, and their is a lot of racket. the woman was a lead researcher at tata cancer. so i suspect, this is a formalization of witchy behaviour or feeling women seem to have by hindu religion by assigning it a ceremony. women have a wide spectrum of witchy feelings ... som eare hidden under ``feminine intuition`` ;-)
these women were not doing ecstacy...they were involved in a religous ritual, in which, some woman allows herself to be posseses by ``mahalxmi``, and their is a lot of racket. the woman was a lead researcher at tata cancer. so i suspect, this is a formalization of witchy behaviour or feeling women seem to have by hindu religion by assigning it a ceremony. women have a wide spectrum of witchy feelings ... som eare hidden under ``feminine intuition`` ;-)
#74 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 30, 2005 6:04:28 am
Re: # 68
If a south asian woman screams RAPE,
Goes and Lodges a complaint against her father in law,
She really is covering up for sex she enjoyed having with a really old man.
Infact She was caught having sex with her father in Law and then made up this really shameful story to cover up her deeds. SHE WAS NEVER RAPED! SHE JUST MADE IT UP!
Mukhtar Mai was never raped either, she just made up that story to cover up her orgies with men from the Mastoi Clan.
Dr. Shazia actually did not get raped either. She only started to scream rape after she was caught having consentual sex with that army fella.
Our women dont get raped.
They are simply nymphomaniacs who make up stories of rape after being caught.
If a south asian woman screams RAPE,
Goes and Lodges a complaint against her father in law,
She really is covering up for sex she enjoyed having with a really old man.
Infact She was caught having sex with her father in Law and then made up this really shameful story to cover up her deeds. SHE WAS NEVER RAPED! SHE JUST MADE IT UP!
Mukhtar Mai was never raped either, she just made up that story to cover up her orgies with men from the Mastoi Clan.
Dr. Shazia actually did not get raped either. She only started to scream rape after she was caught having consentual sex with that army fella.
Our women dont get raped.
They are simply nymphomaniacs who make up stories of rape after being caught.
#73 Posted by BeeJay on June 30, 2005 5:06:46 am
Farzana:
I am still seething a bit from that other (recently departed) board (as you and the crowds have probably guessed by now) and will post some “saner” comments there later (when I calm down some more). (NOTE: although it may be difficult to believe, I do regret the hurt to an individual that my strong words perhaps cause, even though I have no intention of sparing the author, now or later, for some of THAT crap (which really drives me up the wall)!)
Of course, the present article stands on its own. It may be my imagination, but some of the words sound so familiar (you have not taken to “borrowing” your OWN past words, have you?) that they appear almost like invitations for certain questions – questions whose forceful and punchy answers you may have already formulated in your mind – a little like a trap move in chess. Therefore, I thought it was important (perhaps even my duty) to come and ask those questions so that you get a chance to unleash the rest of your well-hoarded ammunition. So here it goes!
First of all, I like this article for a very personal reason. Many, many years ago when I was growing up a little lad in a village in that same state, a somewhat similar incident took place there which was witnessed VERY passively by several people (Thank God, not directly by me). Back then, we did not have septic tanks in villages, a fact which didn’t bother the men folks because they would hit the outdoors first thing in the morning, with a “lota” full of water. The women folks were restrained to the house and the house did have bathrooms. However, the system was different – the human excreta would drop through a hole strategically into a large and deep pan placed to collect it. By mid-day, a scheduled-caste woman (termed “domin” or “halkhorin”) would come and pull the pan out, use her tool of trade (a broken piece of an earthen jar) to scrape away the excreta into her own (larger) vessel, replace the pan and carry away the vessel on her head (to empty it at some designated location). Apparently, there was this moneylender (and you probably know about the interest rates village moneylenders charge) who was owed some money by one such lady and in order to make his point regarding the importance of prompt payments, as this lady walked away with her latest load, a couple of his goons grabbed her, forced her mouth open and – you guessed it!
The real case I describe above was a simple exercise of brute power, and made no pretenses of witchcraft. I suspect that the fact that the victims were women (which you really harp on and on in your article) has very little to do with it – the fact that the victims were weak and vulnerable has EVERYTHING to do with it. I have never seen anyone in my village do a “cultural romanticising of the witch” that you allude to – perhaps it’s a literary exercise limited to circles in which you move!
It breaks my heart that so many years later, stuff like that still happens! I am sure that if things continue to go the same way, a few decades later we’ll STILL have such cases – isolated cases of course, but they represent isolated cases even now! Why is it so?
The answer is obvious (to me, at least) – the mindset is still the same in places like that as it was all those years ago. The mindset that creates these weaklings who become the victims and stay victims, year after year – and generation after generation!
Now I have a question for you. Yes, you rant and rave about a problem, and draw attention to it here, but what does that really do? You are preaching to the choir! I am extremely doubtful that anybody in THIS gang personally stuffed any “stuff” into anyone’s mouth (unless you just want to stick to metaphors and limit the WORLD to yourself). So here you are telling people – don’t do what you are already not doing. The net result is – nothing! Is that ALL you want to accomplish?
And of course, the two victims you name are called devis – devis who are supposed to be strong, who have powers that “run of the mill” individuals do not have, powers that indeed have the ability to bring about tremendous changes if used honestly. Yet both of them are so helpless! I wonder who is more a candidate for pity – the victim that does not have the gift from God and suffers in silence – or one who has and realizes the power of such gifts and yet chooses to throw it away so it ends up as mere hot air, or worse – ends up doing damage?!
Farzana, what is to be done to change the problem MINDSET? Isn’t the blind following of what one is taught by the family, the society, and yes the religious hierarchy – at the root of problems like this? I NEVER see you asking THOSE tough questions. I always see you finding excuses to side with some of the most retrogressive ideologies, as long as they belong to (face it) your “own side”. Invariably, you find “faults” (of all kinds) with contemporary characters who (in their own limited ways and using their own limited gifts) try to raise some of the questions – and some of these “faults”, if I may say, ma’m, are the most flimsy and ridiculous! Is that simply because a “fatwa” is not a “good thing in life” or is there something more – an innate identification with those who have time and again (through words and actions) made it plain as daylight that they just want to hurt your country and convert it into one ruled by an orthodoxy that has no intention of even allowing (far from facing) some of these questions!
There are people at this site who have known you for long, very long – so long that they can sense some unstated deep, deep meaning behind your words and interpret your words into something totally different from what these may superficially appear to be! Such individuals can be called fans, friends, family members and perhaps your intimate ones – if any. The janitor makes no such pretenses and is in no position to make them (perhaps, at the moment, not even the first two categories). He sees words the way the world at large sees words and he gauges words’ intent based strictly on the results that they (appear to be designed to) produce again and again and the janitor sees a pattern like anyone else – provided they have not been blinded by the light! You see those results too, and you see the harm they cause (in their own way) to the country that you proclaim to love, and you still go on and on using the same tack. And forgive me ma’m, the janitor is not convinced (at least at the present time) that the pattern is pretty – for, to the janitor, the pattern appears to be emphasizing on the fault-lines in a highly selective manner, to break people apart rather than bring them together and the pattern appears to accompany a determined attitude to look AWAY from the mindset problem rather than to face it!
(I could keep going on and on, but the janitor needs to get to his broom. I am also unable at this time to go through all the interacts – will try perhaps later.)
Now you can go ahead and swing your punches at me! You might as well do it here, or it will probably eventually come out in some i-log anyway! (Oops, I just notice that you have put up another one, sorry I will have to perhaps deal with later, if needed!)
Once again, it may be difficult to understand, but perhaps you do, that I really MEAN what I have written above about not trying to hurt the individual and I sincerely hope the individual can be and remain strong enough, not for any punches that this worthless janitor sends her way, but the larger punch (coming from herself) that she will have to encounter some day! That’s all!
Notes:
[Our broomstick-hands are said to have cast an unholy spell.]
Not unless that broom was used to hurt real human beings, and the woman, with all the power of God-given perception – willingly hands it over to those doing the hurting! And continues to do the same – year after year. Dear Ma’m, that’s when the “duck test” kicks in. You know the one – if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, pecks you like a duck and likes to hang around with ducks – then it IS a duck! I am not in a position to conduct a full-fledged duck test – I only go by what I see here and can admittedly be far off the mark! If that’s the case, then that’s the case (and sorry!).
I am still seething a bit from that other (recently departed) board (as you and the crowds have probably guessed by now) and will post some “saner” comments there later (when I calm down some more). (NOTE: although it may be difficult to believe, I do regret the hurt to an individual that my strong words perhaps cause, even though I have no intention of sparing the author, now or later, for some of THAT crap (which really drives me up the wall)!)
Of course, the present article stands on its own. It may be my imagination, but some of the words sound so familiar (you have not taken to “borrowing” your OWN past words, have you?) that they appear almost like invitations for certain questions – questions whose forceful and punchy answers you may have already formulated in your mind – a little like a trap move in chess. Therefore, I thought it was important (perhaps even my duty) to come and ask those questions so that you get a chance to unleash the rest of your well-hoarded ammunition. So here it goes!
First of all, I like this article for a very personal reason. Many, many years ago when I was growing up a little lad in a village in that same state, a somewhat similar incident took place there which was witnessed VERY passively by several people (Thank God, not directly by me). Back then, we did not have septic tanks in villages, a fact which didn’t bother the men folks because they would hit the outdoors first thing in the morning, with a “lota” full of water. The women folks were restrained to the house and the house did have bathrooms. However, the system was different – the human excreta would drop through a hole strategically into a large and deep pan placed to collect it. By mid-day, a scheduled-caste woman (termed “domin” or “halkhorin”) would come and pull the pan out, use her tool of trade (a broken piece of an earthen jar) to scrape away the excreta into her own (larger) vessel, replace the pan and carry away the vessel on her head (to empty it at some designated location). Apparently, there was this moneylender (and you probably know about the interest rates village moneylenders charge) who was owed some money by one such lady and in order to make his point regarding the importance of prompt payments, as this lady walked away with her latest load, a couple of his goons grabbed her, forced her mouth open and – you guessed it!
The real case I describe above was a simple exercise of brute power, and made no pretenses of witchcraft. I suspect that the fact that the victims were women (which you really harp on and on in your article) has very little to do with it – the fact that the victims were weak and vulnerable has EVERYTHING to do with it. I have never seen anyone in my village do a “cultural romanticising of the witch” that you allude to – perhaps it’s a literary exercise limited to circles in which you move!
It breaks my heart that so many years later, stuff like that still happens! I am sure that if things continue to go the same way, a few decades later we’ll STILL have such cases – isolated cases of course, but they represent isolated cases even now! Why is it so?
The answer is obvious (to me, at least) – the mindset is still the same in places like that as it was all those years ago. The mindset that creates these weaklings who become the victims and stay victims, year after year – and generation after generation!
Now I have a question for you. Yes, you rant and rave about a problem, and draw attention to it here, but what does that really do? You are preaching to the choir! I am extremely doubtful that anybody in THIS gang personally stuffed any “stuff” into anyone’s mouth (unless you just want to stick to metaphors and limit the WORLD to yourself). So here you are telling people – don’t do what you are already not doing. The net result is – nothing! Is that ALL you want to accomplish?
And of course, the two victims you name are called devis – devis who are supposed to be strong, who have powers that “run of the mill” individuals do not have, powers that indeed have the ability to bring about tremendous changes if used honestly. Yet both of them are so helpless! I wonder who is more a candidate for pity – the victim that does not have the gift from God and suffers in silence – or one who has and realizes the power of such gifts and yet chooses to throw it away so it ends up as mere hot air, or worse – ends up doing damage?!
Farzana, what is to be done to change the problem MINDSET? Isn’t the blind following of what one is taught by the family, the society, and yes the religious hierarchy – at the root of problems like this? I NEVER see you asking THOSE tough questions. I always see you finding excuses to side with some of the most retrogressive ideologies, as long as they belong to (face it) your “own side”. Invariably, you find “faults” (of all kinds) with contemporary characters who (in their own limited ways and using their own limited gifts) try to raise some of the questions – and some of these “faults”, if I may say, ma’m, are the most flimsy and ridiculous! Is that simply because a “fatwa” is not a “good thing in life” or is there something more – an innate identification with those who have time and again (through words and actions) made it plain as daylight that they just want to hurt your country and convert it into one ruled by an orthodoxy that has no intention of even allowing (far from facing) some of these questions!
There are people at this site who have known you for long, very long – so long that they can sense some unstated deep, deep meaning behind your words and interpret your words into something totally different from what these may superficially appear to be! Such individuals can be called fans, friends, family members and perhaps your intimate ones – if any. The janitor makes no such pretenses and is in no position to make them (perhaps, at the moment, not even the first two categories). He sees words the way the world at large sees words and he gauges words’ intent based strictly on the results that they (appear to be designed to) produce again and again and the janitor sees a pattern like anyone else – provided they have not been blinded by the light! You see those results too, and you see the harm they cause (in their own way) to the country that you proclaim to love, and you still go on and on using the same tack. And forgive me ma’m, the janitor is not convinced (at least at the present time) that the pattern is pretty – for, to the janitor, the pattern appears to be emphasizing on the fault-lines in a highly selective manner, to break people apart rather than bring them together and the pattern appears to accompany a determined attitude to look AWAY from the mindset problem rather than to face it!
(I could keep going on and on, but the janitor needs to get to his broom. I am also unable at this time to go through all the interacts – will try perhaps later.)
Now you can go ahead and swing your punches at me! You might as well do it here, or it will probably eventually come out in some i-log anyway! (Oops, I just notice that you have put up another one, sorry I will have to perhaps deal with later, if needed!)
Once again, it may be difficult to understand, but perhaps you do, that I really MEAN what I have written above about not trying to hurt the individual and I sincerely hope the individual can be and remain strong enough, not for any punches that this worthless janitor sends her way, but the larger punch (coming from herself) that she will have to encounter some day! That’s all!
Notes:
[Our broomstick-hands are said to have cast an unholy spell.]
Not unless that broom was used to hurt real human beings, and the woman, with all the power of God-given perception – willingly hands it over to those doing the hurting! And continues to do the same – year after year. Dear Ma’m, that’s when the “duck test” kicks in. You know the one – if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, pecks you like a duck and likes to hang around with ducks – then it IS a duck! I am not in a position to conduct a full-fledged duck test – I only go by what I see here and can admittedly be far off the mark! If that’s the case, then that’s the case (and sorry!).
#72 Posted by Kamath on June 30, 2005 4:22:04 am
Re: # 70
Dear Begum Versey:
Why don`t You write these well articulated columns in papers like Times of India (circulation 2.4million!) and not in Chowk or Fridaytimes where the number of readers is less.
Dear Begum Versey:
Why don`t You write these well articulated columns in papers like Times of India (circulation 2.4million!) and not in Chowk or Fridaytimes where the number of readers is less.
#71 Posted by FarzanaVersey on June 30, 2005 1:39:48 am
Ozer:
You may be certain (and not just hope) that I understand the symbolism, for often that is all I understand…
I wish you had ‘bewitched’ the readers with your own take by extrapolating the earlier views with those that might arise anew.
As you would have guessed, I have used the term ‘witch’ expansively. To apply the previous analogy, you quote me, “Isn’t it interesting that it is the gigolos who take charge of the fairytales and the women are left with glass slippers?” and you reply, “that is why the unlucky ``Cinderellas``` of life reflected in your piece have to climb up mountains of ``glass`` in shoes made of iron. This is the harsh and frozen fate that befalls their glacial existence.”
Interestingly, the certified witch of the fairytales is sanctified by her evil…but it is the Cinderella who becomes a threat, with her innocence, her dreams. Often, she has no shoes of iron – she walks barefoot on the glass and the trail of blood becomes the only landmark for her to find her way back ‘home’.
The latter-day Cinderellas who dare to dream meet this fate. I sometimes smile wryly when I am called a “bloody b!tch”, for I know that the symbolism has met reality right beneath my feet.
PS: Your tardiness seemed to have (unintentionally) been well-timed with my absence then. When I did look at your response, it was too late…and there are enough real ghosts to talk and walk with in what passes for the actual world for me to imagine a cyber ghost would care to seek out my words in the deluge where not all ‘epics’ are epicurean…by then I had heard whispers about your identity. Such things do not bother me. Who and what a person is are at best details – what a person says is germane to the momentum any written word gathers. Having said that, I will have to refrain from indulging here in the last bits of your reply – it would fall in the category of an ilog or merely canonise me as ‘liqueur witch’!…perhaps, I might write about those momentous minutiae in the lonesome space I occasionally find anchor in…and should you wish to know (there is such a yawning gap between what one might assume to be a plea; your “plzzz” denotes the weight of ennui perking up at the thought of a past curiosity), you may something…perchance more than a distant lament.
You may be certain (and not just hope) that I understand the symbolism, for often that is all I understand…
I wish you had ‘bewitched’ the readers with your own take by extrapolating the earlier views with those that might arise anew.
As you would have guessed, I have used the term ‘witch’ expansively. To apply the previous analogy, you quote me, “Isn’t it interesting that it is the gigolos who take charge of the fairytales and the women are left with glass slippers?” and you reply, “that is why the unlucky ``Cinderellas``` of life reflected in your piece have to climb up mountains of ``glass`` in shoes made of iron. This is the harsh and frozen fate that befalls their glacial existence.”
Interestingly, the certified witch of the fairytales is sanctified by her evil…but it is the Cinderella who becomes a threat, with her innocence, her dreams. Often, she has no shoes of iron – she walks barefoot on the glass and the trail of blood becomes the only landmark for her to find her way back ‘home’.
The latter-day Cinderellas who dare to dream meet this fate. I sometimes smile wryly when I am called a “bloody b!tch”, for I know that the symbolism has met reality right beneath my feet.
PS: Your tardiness seemed to have (unintentionally) been well-timed with my absence then. When I did look at your response, it was too late…and there are enough real ghosts to talk and walk with in what passes for the actual world for me to imagine a cyber ghost would care to seek out my words in the deluge where not all ‘epics’ are epicurean…by then I had heard whispers about your identity. Such things do not bother me. Who and what a person is are at best details – what a person says is germane to the momentum any written word gathers. Having said that, I will have to refrain from indulging here in the last bits of your reply – it would fall in the category of an ilog or merely canonise me as ‘liqueur witch’!…perhaps, I might write about those momentous minutiae in the lonesome space I occasionally find anchor in…and should you wish to know (there is such a yawning gap between what one might assume to be a plea; your “plzzz” denotes the weight of ennui perking up at the thought of a past curiosity), you may something…perchance more than a distant lament.
#70 Posted by FarzanaVersey on June 30, 2005 1:33:02 am
#55 by HP:
[#48 by FarzanaVersey
FV,
The story of Imrana!
Why do you think it was rape? Could it not be consensual sex, which is now being covered up, and in most likely scenario, local police knows that too? ]
The other sons of the old man moved out of the house with their families…there have been implications that this was not the first time the old man behaved improperly.
[It seems to me that in Imrana case, both FIL and DIL, when caught made up the story of rape and the mullah and the local police know that.]
This is curious. The FIL would agree to be called a rapist? They were not caught; she went and complained about it. For a village woman to do so requires some courage. Heck, for any woman it requires guts.
[With this kind of publicity surrounding the case, do you think that police would have ignored it, if it were NOT a matter of consensual sex?]
You seem to paint the picture of the police as some benign creatures. Remember that this is not an influential family; they are lower middle-class; Imrana’s husband drives an autorickshaw. There have been occasions when the police have come into the picture even in the case of consensual sex.
Here, they have not ignored it – a case has been filed. When I mentioned in my letter that it should be the job of the UP police, it was to emphasise that the mullahs should just lay off.
I do know that illicit relations take place, but you would be aware that often the woman is pressurised – by physical torture, emotional blackmail or threats to her persona and reputation.
PS: Just read your later post… “had sex” is a common way to divert attention…
- - -
And more on the ‘witch’…in today’s newspapers (please note that the term is used in such a cavalier fashion by a head of state for another head of state):
Indira a ‘witch’, Indians ‘bastards’ - By Anne Gearan
Washington, June 29: US President Richard M. Nixon referred privately to Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi as an ``old witch`` and national security adviser Henry Kissinger insulted Indians in general, according to transcripts of Oval Office tapes and newly declassified documents.
Nixon and Kissinger met in the Oval Office on the morning of November 5, 1971, to discuss Nixon’s conversation with Indira Gandhi the day before. ``We really slobbered over the old witch,`` Nixon told Kissinger, according to a transcript of their conversation released on Tuesday as part of a state department compilation of significant documents involving American foreign policy.
Nixon’s remark came as the two men speculated about Indira Gandhi’s motives during the White House meeting and discussed India’s intentions in the looming conflict with Pakistan. The United States was allied with Pakistan and saw India as too closely allied with the Soviet Union. ``The Indians are bastards anyway,`` Kissinger told the President. ``They are starting a war there.`` Kissinger also told his boss that he had bested Indira Gandhi in their meeting. ``While she was a bitch, we got what we wanted too,`` Kissinger said. ``She will not be able to go home and say that the United States didn’t give her a warm reception and therefore in despair she’s got to go to war.``
Other documents chart US contacts with China, as facilitated by Pakistan, and US concern that India was developing nuclear technology. The archive covers US policy in South Asia in 1971 and 1972.
The documents, many declassified only earlier this month, generally cover old ground, several Cold War scholars said. Still, the particulars are intriguing, including rosters of who was in various meetings and quotes from conversations among Nixon, his aides and foreign leaders. ``They see everything through a Cold War prism,`` said Bill Burr, a senior analyst at the National Security Archive at George Washington University. ``It’s a wholly distorted view.``
US-India relations were strained for decades as a result of Cold War alliances and have significantly improved only recently. US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice visited India earlier this year, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will visit Washington in July. (AP)
[#48 by FarzanaVersey
FV,
The story of Imrana!
Why do you think it was rape? Could it not be consensual sex, which is now being covered up, and in most likely scenario, local police knows that too? ]
The other sons of the old man moved out of the house with their families…there have been implications that this was not the first time the old man behaved improperly.
[It seems to me that in Imrana case, both FIL and DIL, when caught made up the story of rape and the mullah and the local police know that.]
This is curious. The FIL would agree to be called a rapist? They were not caught; she went and complained about it. For a village woman to do so requires some courage. Heck, for any woman it requires guts.
[With this kind of publicity surrounding the case, do you think that police would have ignored it, if it were NOT a matter of consensual sex?]
You seem to paint the picture of the police as some benign creatures. Remember that this is not an influential family; they are lower middle-class; Imrana’s husband drives an autorickshaw. There have been occasions when the police have come into the picture even in the case of consensual sex.
Here, they have not ignored it – a case has been filed. When I mentioned in my letter that it should be the job of the UP police, it was to emphasise that the mullahs should just lay off.
I do know that illicit relations take place, but you would be aware that often the woman is pressurised – by physical torture, emotional blackmail or threats to her persona and reputation.
PS: Just read your later post… “had sex” is a common way to divert attention…
- - -
And more on the ‘witch’…in today’s newspapers (please note that the term is used in such a cavalier fashion by a head of state for another head of state):
Indira a ‘witch’, Indians ‘bastards’ - By Anne Gearan
Washington, June 29: US President Richard M. Nixon referred privately to Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi as an ``old witch`` and national security adviser Henry Kissinger insulted Indians in general, according to transcripts of Oval Office tapes and newly declassified documents.
Nixon and Kissinger met in the Oval Office on the morning of November 5, 1971, to discuss Nixon’s conversation with Indira Gandhi the day before. ``We really slobbered over the old witch,`` Nixon told Kissinger, according to a transcript of their conversation released on Tuesday as part of a state department compilation of significant documents involving American foreign policy.
Nixon’s remark came as the two men speculated about Indira Gandhi’s motives during the White House meeting and discussed India’s intentions in the looming conflict with Pakistan. The United States was allied with Pakistan and saw India as too closely allied with the Soviet Union. ``The Indians are bastards anyway,`` Kissinger told the President. ``They are starting a war there.`` Kissinger also told his boss that he had bested Indira Gandhi in their meeting. ``While she was a bitch, we got what we wanted too,`` Kissinger said. ``She will not be able to go home and say that the United States didn’t give her a warm reception and therefore in despair she’s got to go to war.``
Other documents chart US contacts with China, as facilitated by Pakistan, and US concern that India was developing nuclear technology. The archive covers US policy in South Asia in 1971 and 1972.
The documents, many declassified only earlier this month, generally cover old ground, several Cold War scholars said. Still, the particulars are intriguing, including rosters of who was in various meetings and quotes from conversations among Nixon, his aides and foreign leaders. ``They see everything through a Cold War prism,`` said Bill Burr, a senior analyst at the National Security Archive at George Washington University. ``It’s a wholly distorted view.``
US-India relations were strained for decades as a result of Cold War alliances and have significantly improved only recently. US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice visited India earlier this year, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will visit Washington in July. (AP)
#69 Posted by cayenne on June 30, 2005 1:21:49 am
Re: # 68
Do you have a cat?.`Cause your rants look like they`ve been induced by inhaling the fumes from the shit your beloved feline drops into the litter box in your cramped W/C.Go spend some money on some decent cat litter before you type more rubbish.
Do you have a cat?.`Cause your rants look like they`ve been induced by inhaling the fumes from the shit your beloved feline drops into the litter box in your cramped W/C.Go spend some money on some decent cat litter before you type more rubbish.
#68 Posted by HP on June 29, 2005 11:07:46 pm
#67
``Havent your mother ever told you not to believe everything you read. Perhaps you should use your head for some critical thinking once in a while.``
Exactly! How did you know it was a rape!
// Nothing from Louisiana surprises me anymore!
#67 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 29, 2005 10:35:21 pm
Re: # 66
When a Maulvi molests a young boy, he infact has sex with the boy.
When a man rapes a woman, He infact has sex with the woman.
Is rape not a form of sex?
Yes, Mukhtar Mai`s rapists had sex with her.
They raped her body using sex as a tool.
Muhtarma Imrana`s father in law had sex with her while she was being raped.
I guess you conveniently forgot about the first passage, where it mentions that she screamed and called for help.
Atleast I have the courage and balls to cut and paste the whole truth, You on the other hand keep harping on and on like the curved tail of a dog.
So be it. Your reality to you. Mine to me. My religion to me, and yours to you. My Allah for me, and Yours for you.
Havent your mother ever told you not to believe everything you read. Perhaps you should use your head for some critical thinking once in a while.
Please do not respond to me anymore. Talking with you, to you or responding is futile.
I wish you peace.
Fi Aman Allah
When a Maulvi molests a young boy, he infact has sex with the boy.
When a man rapes a woman, He infact has sex with the woman.
Is rape not a form of sex?
Yes, Mukhtar Mai`s rapists had sex with her.
They raped her body using sex as a tool.
Muhtarma Imrana`s father in law had sex with her while she was being raped.
I guess you conveniently forgot about the first passage, where it mentions that she screamed and called for help.
Atleast I have the courage and balls to cut and paste the whole truth, You on the other hand keep harping on and on like the curved tail of a dog.
So be it. Your reality to you. Mine to me. My religion to me, and yours to you. My Allah for me, and Yours for you.
Havent your mother ever told you not to believe everything you read. Perhaps you should use your head for some critical thinking once in a while.
Please do not respond to me anymore. Talking with you, to you or responding is futile.
I wish you peace.
Fi Aman Allah
#66 Posted by HP on June 29, 2005 10:18:40 pm
#65
Shore,
I am not sure you are even capable of a discussion on this issue as you failed to even follow what I said in my post to Farzana.
I have no intention to research the net to prove my point because you are doing it for me. Read this from one of your cut and past “Shahkar” and see for yourself that there is more to the story then just a simple rape.
“According to a fact-find team led by Dr Tasleem Rahmani, president of the
Muslim Political Conference, the alleged rape did not take place (it was a
case of molestation/attempted rape). The issue was settled locally until an
area Hindi newspaper correspondent got wind of it and (as common with small
time journalists in far-off places) tried to blackmail the family to give
him Rs 10,000, failing which he threatened to publish the story in his
newspaper. As the poor family could not afford to offer him the bribe, the
correspondent went ahead and published the story. ZeeTV picked it up from
there and soon all channels and newspapers raided the area and blew the
story out of proportion just like they did a few weeks ago with Gudiya.”
Since you are incapable of reading “between the lines”, let me explain it you from your own copy paste “shahkar” that the mullahs are implying what I said in plain English and that it was possibly consensual sex and that is the reason they want to annul the marriage and are forcing her to marry her father in Law.
Here is an excerpt from your own post. Pay attention to words “had sex” with her own father in law and also pay attention to what the village council of elders decided. It seems that they had the clear picture as to what exactly happened on the ground. Fatwa followed council’s decision.
“The controversy over the rape of a woman by her father-in-law has raised many pertinent issues. After the horrendous incident, the woman, a mother of five children, was told to consider her husband as her son by the local village council of elders. The initial resistance of this edict by the woman and her husband soon gave way to immense pressure put on them by the fatwa of Dar al Uloom, Deoband, which gave very nearly the same verdict, as that of the village council. It stipulated that the women in question could no longer live with her husband, since she
Shore,
I am not sure you are even capable of a discussion on this issue as you failed to even follow what I said in my post to Farzana.
I have no intention to research the net to prove my point because you are doing it for me. Read this from one of your cut and past “Shahkar” and see for yourself that there is more to the story then just a simple rape.
“According to a fact-find team led by Dr Tasleem Rahmani, president of the
Muslim Political Conference, the alleged rape did not take place (it was a
case of molestation/attempted rape). The issue was settled locally until an
area Hindi newspaper correspondent got wind of it and (as common with small
time journalists in far-off places) tried to blackmail the family to give
him Rs 10,000, failing which he threatened to publish the story in his
newspaper. As the poor family could not afford to offer him the bribe, the
correspondent went ahead and published the story. ZeeTV picked it up from
there and soon all channels and newspapers raided the area and blew the
story out of proportion just like they did a few weeks ago with Gudiya.”
Since you are incapable of reading “between the lines”, let me explain it you from your own copy paste “shahkar” that the mullahs are implying what I said in plain English and that it was possibly consensual sex and that is the reason they want to annul the marriage and are forcing her to marry her father in Law.
Here is an excerpt from your own post. Pay attention to words “had sex” with her own father in law and also pay attention to what the village council of elders decided. It seems that they had the clear picture as to what exactly happened on the ground. Fatwa followed council’s decision.
“The controversy over the rape of a woman by her father-in-law has raised many pertinent issues. After the horrendous incident, the woman, a mother of five children, was told to consider her husband as her son by the local village council of elders. The initial resistance of this edict by the woman and her husband soon gave way to immense pressure put on them by the fatwa of Dar al Uloom, Deoband, which gave very nearly the same verdict, as that of the village council. It stipulated that the women in question could no longer live with her husband, since she
- ‘had sex’
#65 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 29, 2005 9:23:05 pm
MR HP: Read and Weep:-
Four Ulema`s response to the Imrana Case:
1. Dr. Mustafa Kamal Sherwani
President, All India Muslim Forum
The `fatwa`(religious edict)given by Deoband
Seminary, and confirmed by All India Muslim Personal
Law Board, that Imrana, after being raped by her
father-in-law, cannot be allowed to stay with her
husband,is most retrograde, and in total violation of
Islamic Shariah. The countless provisions of Quran
bear an ample testimony to the fact that nobody can be
punished or subjected to adverse consequences for any
deed which he or she was compelled to commit, and the
commission of which could not be resisted despite all
human efforts. According to Quranic injunctions, even
if a woman is forced into prostitution by those under
whose custody she is, she is free from any guilt, sin
or whatever might be associated with it. Had the act
of Imrana been voluntary, then the situation would
have been totally different. This is a gross injustice
which can never be authenticated by Shariat, that a
poor woman was firstly raped by her father-in-law, and
then also deprived of her matrimonial life.
Such un-Islamic `Fatwas` are bound to project
Islam as a cruel and unjust religion, and I am sure,
that by acting in this most heinous and negative
manner, these obscurantist clergy class are
ruthlessly damaging the image of Islam as the most
progressive religion of the world. Such developments
amply manifest that these seminaries and `maulvi`
class have lost their utility in the Muslim society,
and the more free hand they are given in tampering
with Shariat, the more disastrous they will prove
themselves for the whole social and religious fabric
of the community. Now it is a time when a sustained
movement must be launced to keep the illiterate Muslim
masses away from the nefarious ideology of these
`Madarsas` and `Maulvis`, if Islam is to survive as a
modern religion in 21st century
Dr. Mustafa Kamal Sherwani
President, All India Muslim Forum
Presently : Dean, Faculty of Law and Shariah
University of Zanzibar
Republic of Tanzania
Email:sherwanimk@yahoo.com
2. Juzar Bandukwala (Profesor, Baroda University)
The Imrana case and the Deoband fatwa, is
generating considerable anxiety . There is a fear that
we may be on the verge of another Shah Banu
disaster.The last thing the country needs at this
stage is another issue to widen the gulf between
Hindus and Muslims. The concern for Imrana is genuine
and admirable among human rights and women
activists.But there is also the Sangh Parivar that
would love to use this issue to increase stereotyping
of Muslims, and shed crocodile tears for the plight of
its women.
It is best that we refer to the actual
Koranic injunction. Surah 4, ayat 23, lays down those
with whom marriage( sexual intercourse) is not
allowed. `` Prohibited in marriage are your mother,
daughters, sisters, father`s sisters, mother`s
sisters, brother`s or sisters`s daughters, foster
mothers or foster daughters, wife`s mother, step
daughters, daughter in laws , and two sisters in
wedlock at the same time.``
In the Imrana case the father in law forced
himself onto his daughter in law. She screamed and
shouted for help. Clearly it was not with consent. The
father in law is obviously guilty, while the daughter
in law is the victim. The above injunction applies
only when consent is involved. The Imrana angle has to
be viewed from the viewpoint of a number of other
injunctions in the Koran, that demands compassion and
kindness to the victim.I am surprised the Deoband
ulemas failed to apply these Koranic commands.
Certainly Imrana, her husband and her five children
deserve these considerations.By declaring this
marriage to be null and void, the final price for this
dastardly act will be paid by the victims.That
violates the spirit and the letter of the Koran. The
Deoband ulemas have erred badly.
Sincerely Yours,
J.S.Bandukwala,
Vadodara [drbandukwala@yahoo.co.in]
3.
OUTRAGE
Victimising The Victim
ARSHAD ALAM
The controversy over the rape of a woman by her father-in-law has raised many pertinent issues. After the horrendous incident, the woman, a mother of five children, was told to consider her husband as her son by the local village council of elders. The initial resistance of this edict by the woman and her husband soon gave way to immense pressure put on them by the fatwa of Dar al Uloom, Deoband, which gave very nearly the same verdict, as that of the village council. It stipulated that the women in question could no longer live with her husband, since she ‘had sex’ with her own father-in-law.
The learned Mufti of Deoband, despite his scholarship, has punished a woman for no fault of hers. Doesn’t he know that remarriage of women in India is still not a norm, be it among Hindus or Muslims? One might ask how such a callous fatwa has been issued. After all, it is the same people who tell us that women and men are the same in Islam. Why then, we see that in cases such as these, it is only women who are at the receiving end?
The case of this woman from Uttar Pradesh is not unique, neither the first. Couple of years ago, a woman in Nigeria complained that she had been raped. The man denied the charge and under the Islamic requirement the woman could not produce witnesses. The end was that she was charged with adultery. The case of Amina Lawal which became internationally known was similarly the result of a ‘blame the victim’ mentality. The present case in India should be seen in this light and not as some isolated incident.
More and more it is becoming clearer that Sharia laws do not give adequate protection to women. It is not without reason therefore that Muslim women’s group are demanding changes in some of the Sharia laws. Their mistrust of Sharia laws only gets strong when we see that while the Dar al Uloom categorically wants the separation of the women in question from her husband, it suggests that the rapist father in law should be tried under the Indian penal code. So while women are to be covered under Personal Law, the men are free to enjoy the reformed secular law. The ‘islamicity’ of Indian Muslim men is therefore based on the degree to which they have control over their women.
The reaction by political parties to this case has shamefully been on predictable lines. The only ones who are raising this issue are the women’s group like AIDWA and All India Women’s Personal Law Board. The male dominated AIMPLB has already acquiesced in to the fatwa of Deoband, making it ever clearer that it is not the sole representative of Muslims in India. The most disgraceful so far has been Mulayam Singh Yadav who has welcomed the Deoband fatwa and has refused to entertain any other opinion than the one from Deoband. The Congress has similarly distanced itself from the issue. Its leader in Uttar Pradesh Salman Khurshid stated that the issue was an ‘individual one’ which should be dealt in accordance with the Shariat. After all what can one expect from a party, whose President had recently spoken from the platform of Jamiat ul-‘Ulama-I Hind, the apex body of the Deobandi Ulama in India?
Mainstream political parties have so far reinforced the impression that the Muslims in India are led by the Maulvis and madrasas, an impression which simplifies the complex character of the Muslims in India. However, in considering the Ulama as guardians of Muslim community in India, they have served to take the Muslims backwards and have throttled alternative progressive voices from within the community.
Muslims need to realize that it is only they who can change the way the community is looked upon by others. There is a need to change outmoded laws since they were drafted many hundred years ago and do not reflect the contemporary reality. So far the Muslims have left their religious affairs in the hands of Ulama. Time and again, they have reminded us that they are not willing to change. After all Personal Laws have been reformed in Pakistan, Malaysia and other Muslim countries and there is no reason why it cannot be done in India. Assigning the task to the Ulama has not brought desired changes. It is time perhaps that ordinary Muslims start taking more interest in the religious affairs of the community and not leave everything to the Ulama.
Arshad Alam is International Ford Fellow, Department of Muslim Religious and Cultural History, University of Erfurt, Germany.
4. Zafar ul-Islam Khan, Editor, `Milli Gazette`, Delhi
Where did the AIMPLB support the fatwa? Iqtidar Naseem is a member but she
is not a scholar. The board has not met and its president (Maulana Rabey
Nadwi) or spokesman (Abudr Raheem Qureshi) have not uttered a single word.
On the other hand, a board member (Maulana Abdul Wahab Khilji) has openly
opposed the ``fatwa`` in a statement issued yesterday and carried by Urdu
papers today. It is still not clear on what basis the Deoband ``fatwa`` was
issued.
Our rep will be in Deoband tomorrow to try to find out how this ``fatwa`` was
issued and what basis was used to pronounce that Imrana no longer remained
wife of Noor Ilahi after the alleged crime.
According to a fact-find team led by Dr Tasleem Rahmani, president of the
Muslim Political Conference, the alleged rape did not take place (it was a
case of molestation/attempted rape). The issue was settled locally until an
area Hindi newspaper correspondent got wind of it and (as common with small
time journalists in far-off places) tried to blackmail the family to give
him Rs 10,000, failing which he threatened to publish the story in his
newspaper. As the poor family could not afford to offer him the bribe, the
correspondent went ahead and published the story. ZeeTV picked it up from
there and soon all channels and newspapers raided the area and blew the
story out of proportion just like they did a few weeks ago with Gudiya.
Zafarul-Islam Khan [zik@vsnl.com]
Four Ulema`s response to the Imrana Case:
1. Dr. Mustafa Kamal Sherwani
President, All India Muslim Forum
The `fatwa`(religious edict)given by Deoband
Seminary, and confirmed by All India Muslim Personal
Law Board, that Imrana, after being raped by her
father-in-law, cannot be allowed to stay with her
husband,is most retrograde, and in total violation of
Islamic Shariah. The countless provisions of Quran
bear an ample testimony to the fact that nobody can be
punished or subjected to adverse consequences for any
deed which he or she was compelled to commit, and the
commission of which could not be resisted despite all
human efforts. According to Quranic injunctions, even
if a woman is forced into prostitution by those under
whose custody she is, she is free from any guilt, sin
or whatever might be associated with it. Had the act
of Imrana been voluntary, then the situation would
have been totally different. This is a gross injustice
which can never be authenticated by Shariat, that a
poor woman was firstly raped by her father-in-law, and
then also deprived of her matrimonial life.
Such un-Islamic `Fatwas` are bound to project
Islam as a cruel and unjust religion, and I am sure,
that by acting in this most heinous and negative
manner, these obscurantist clergy class are
ruthlessly damaging the image of Islam as the most
progressive religion of the world. Such developments
amply manifest that these seminaries and `maulvi`
class have lost their utility in the Muslim society,
and the more free hand they are given in tampering
with Shariat, the more disastrous they will prove
themselves for the whole social and religious fabric
of the community. Now it is a time when a sustained
movement must be launced to keep the illiterate Muslim
masses away from the nefarious ideology of these
`Madarsas` and `Maulvis`, if Islam is to survive as a
modern religion in 21st century
Dr. Mustafa Kamal Sherwani
President, All India Muslim Forum
Presently : Dean, Faculty of Law and Shariah
University of Zanzibar
Republic of Tanzania
Email:sherwanimk@yahoo.com
2. Juzar Bandukwala (Profesor, Baroda University)
The Imrana case and the Deoband fatwa, is
generating considerable anxiety . There is a fear that
we may be on the verge of another Shah Banu
disaster.The last thing the country needs at this
stage is another issue to widen the gulf between
Hindus and Muslims. The concern for Imrana is genuine
and admirable among human rights and women
activists.But there is also the Sangh Parivar that
would love to use this issue to increase stereotyping
of Muslims, and shed crocodile tears for the plight of
its women.
It is best that we refer to the actual
Koranic injunction. Surah 4, ayat 23, lays down those
with whom marriage( sexual intercourse) is not
allowed. `` Prohibited in marriage are your mother,
daughters, sisters, father`s sisters, mother`s
sisters, brother`s or sisters`s daughters, foster
mothers or foster daughters, wife`s mother, step
daughters, daughter in laws , and two sisters in
wedlock at the same time.``
In the Imrana case the father in law forced
himself onto his daughter in law. She screamed and
shouted for help. Clearly it was not with consent. The
father in law is obviously guilty, while the daughter
in law is the victim. The above injunction applies
only when consent is involved. The Imrana angle has to
be viewed from the viewpoint of a number of other
injunctions in the Koran, that demands compassion and
kindness to the victim.I am surprised the Deoband
ulemas failed to apply these Koranic commands.
Certainly Imrana, her husband and her five children
deserve these considerations.By declaring this
marriage to be null and void, the final price for this
dastardly act will be paid by the victims.That
violates the spirit and the letter of the Koran. The
Deoband ulemas have erred badly.
Sincerely Yours,
J.S.Bandukwala,
Vadodara [drbandukwala@yahoo.co.in]
3.
OUTRAGE
Victimising The Victim
ARSHAD ALAM
The controversy over the rape of a woman by her father-in-law has raised many pertinent issues. After the horrendous incident, the woman, a mother of five children, was told to consider her husband as her son by the local village council of elders. The initial resistance of this edict by the woman and her husband soon gave way to immense pressure put on them by the fatwa of Dar al Uloom, Deoband, which gave very nearly the same verdict, as that of the village council. It stipulated that the women in question could no longer live with her husband, since she ‘had sex’ with her own father-in-law.
The learned Mufti of Deoband, despite his scholarship, has punished a woman for no fault of hers. Doesn’t he know that remarriage of women in India is still not a norm, be it among Hindus or Muslims? One might ask how such a callous fatwa has been issued. After all, it is the same people who tell us that women and men are the same in Islam. Why then, we see that in cases such as these, it is only women who are at the receiving end?
The case of this woman from Uttar Pradesh is not unique, neither the first. Couple of years ago, a woman in Nigeria complained that she had been raped. The man denied the charge and under the Islamic requirement the woman could not produce witnesses. The end was that she was charged with adultery. The case of Amina Lawal which became internationally known was similarly the result of a ‘blame the victim’ mentality. The present case in India should be seen in this light and not as some isolated incident.
More and more it is becoming clearer that Sharia laws do not give adequate protection to women. It is not without reason therefore that Muslim women’s group are demanding changes in some of the Sharia laws. Their mistrust of Sharia laws only gets strong when we see that while the Dar al Uloom categorically wants the separation of the women in question from her husband, it suggests that the rapist father in law should be tried under the Indian penal code. So while women are to be covered under Personal Law, the men are free to enjoy the reformed secular law. The ‘islamicity’ of Indian Muslim men is therefore based on the degree to which they have control over their women.
The reaction by political parties to this case has shamefully been on predictable lines. The only ones who are raising this issue are the women’s group like AIDWA and All India Women’s Personal Law Board. The male dominated AIMPLB has already acquiesced in to the fatwa of Deoband, making it ever clearer that it is not the sole representative of Muslims in India. The most disgraceful so far has been Mulayam Singh Yadav who has welcomed the Deoband fatwa and has refused to entertain any other opinion than the one from Deoband. The Congress has similarly distanced itself from the issue. Its leader in Uttar Pradesh Salman Khurshid stated that the issue was an ‘individual one’ which should be dealt in accordance with the Shariat. After all what can one expect from a party, whose President had recently spoken from the platform of Jamiat ul-‘Ulama-I Hind, the apex body of the Deobandi Ulama in India?
Mainstream political parties have so far reinforced the impression that the Muslims in India are led by the Maulvis and madrasas, an impression which simplifies the complex character of the Muslims in India. However, in considering the Ulama as guardians of Muslim community in India, they have served to take the Muslims backwards and have throttled alternative progressive voices from within the community.
Muslims need to realize that it is only they who can change the way the community is looked upon by others. There is a need to change outmoded laws since they were drafted many hundred years ago and do not reflect the contemporary reality. So far the Muslims have left their religious affairs in the hands of Ulama. Time and again, they have reminded us that they are not willing to change. After all Personal Laws have been reformed in Pakistan, Malaysia and other Muslim countries and there is no reason why it cannot be done in India. Assigning the task to the Ulama has not brought desired changes. It is time perhaps that ordinary Muslims start taking more interest in the religious affairs of the community and not leave everything to the Ulama.
Arshad Alam is International Ford Fellow, Department of Muslim Religious and Cultural History, University of Erfurt, Germany.
4. Zafar ul-Islam Khan, Editor, `Milli Gazette`, Delhi
Where did the AIMPLB support the fatwa? Iqtidar Naseem is a member but she
is not a scholar. The board has not met and its president (Maulana Rabey
Nadwi) or spokesman (Abudr Raheem Qureshi) have not uttered a single word.
On the other hand, a board member (Maulana Abdul Wahab Khilji) has openly
opposed the ``fatwa`` in a statement issued yesterday and carried by Urdu
papers today. It is still not clear on what basis the Deoband ``fatwa`` was
issued.
Our rep will be in Deoband tomorrow to try to find out how this ``fatwa`` was
issued and what basis was used to pronounce that Imrana no longer remained
wife of Noor Ilahi after the alleged crime.
According to a fact-find team led by Dr Tasleem Rahmani, president of the
Muslim Political Conference, the alleged rape did not take place (it was a
case of molestation/attempted rape). The issue was settled locally until an
area Hindi newspaper correspondent got wind of it and (as common with small
time journalists in far-off places) tried to blackmail the family to give
him Rs 10,000, failing which he threatened to publish the story in his
newspaper. As the poor family could not afford to offer him the bribe, the
correspondent went ahead and published the story. ZeeTV picked it up from
there and soon all channels and newspapers raided the area and blew the
story out of proportion just like they did a few weeks ago with Gudiya.
Zafarul-Islam Khan [zik@vsnl.com]
#64 Posted by ShoreSahib on June 29, 2005 5:35:30 pm
Re: # 59
OH WOW!
I am startled by your sheer arrogance and ignorance.
Bravo!
Thou Hast Startled me!
OH WOW!
I am startled by your sheer arrogance and ignorance.
Bravo!
Thou Hast Startled me!
#63 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2005 4:01:51 pm
HP/ShoreSahib: Peace, peace good fellows. :-)
(This is a line from my class 3 english language textbook).
(This is a line from my class 3 english language textbook).
#62 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2005 3:58:22 pm
Pakistan`s shame: The other rape case in Pakistan - and no one was found guilty.
Dr. Khalid leaves Pakistan
Dr. Khalid leaves Pakistan