Muslims Not Married in America
Fazeel Chauhan June 28, 2005
#68 Posted by Soulat on June 30, 2005 11:46:34 pm
I never quite figured out why the sexual urge of men and women differ so
much. And I never have figured out the whole Venus and Mars thing. I have
never figured out why men think with their head and women with their heart.
FOR EXAMPLE: One evening last week, my girlfriend and I were getting into
bed.
Well, the passion starts to heat up, and she eventually says ``I don`t feel
like it, I just want you to hold me.``
I said ``WHAT??!! What was that?!``
So she says the words that every boyfriend on the planet dreads to hear...
``You`re just not in touch with my emotional needs as a woman enough for me
to satisfy your physical needs as a man.`` She responded to my puzzled look
by saying, ``Can`t you just love me for who I am and not what I do for you in
the bedroom?``
Realizing that nothing was going to happen that night, I went to sleep.
The very next day I opted to take the day off of work to spend time with
her. We went out to a nice lunch and then went shopping at a big, big
unnamed department store. I walked around with her while she tried on
several different very expensive outfits. She couldn`t decide which one to
take so I told her we`d just buy them all. She wanted new shoes to
compliment her new clothes, so I said lets get a pair for each outfit. We
went onto the jewelry department where she picked out a pair of diamond
earrings. Let me tell you...she was so excited. She must have thought I was
one wave short of a shipwreck. I started to think she was testing me because
she asked for a tennis bracelet when she doesn`t even know how to play
tennis. I think I threw her for a loop when I said, ``That`s fine, honey.``
She was almost nearing sexual satisfaction from all of the excitement.
Smiling with excited anticipation she finally said, ``I think this is all
dear, let`s go to the cashier.``
I could hardly contain myself when I blurted out, ``No honey, I don`t feel
like it.``
Her face just went completely blank as her jaw dropped with a baffled
WHAT?``
I then said ``honey! I just want you to HOLD this stuff for a while. You`re
just not in touch with my financial needs as a man enough for me to satisfy
your shopping needs as a woman.`` And just when she had this look like she
was going to kill me, I added, ``Why can`t you just love me for who I am and
not for the things I buy you?``
Apparently I`m not having sex tonight either.
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#67 Posted by temporal on June 30, 2005 10:48:14 pm
miriam #65:
think universal yaar: it is about relationship between equals
if there are constraints -- religious or social or cultural than it is not a `stirve` on an even field...
just that!
lve
t
think universal yaar: it is about relationship between equals
if there are constraints -- religious or social or cultural than it is not a `stirve` on an even field...
just that!
lve
t
#66 Posted by miriamk on June 30, 2005 7:25:16 pm
Beej:
#73
A total aside: I was not interacting on the Bunty aur Babli board but I did see your post re the refugees. Took me some time to go through the posts to understand what was going on. Hence the late answer which is a vehement NO! I do not subscribe to the narrow definition of conferring refugee status. I agree with anil et al.
#73
A total aside: I was not interacting on the Bunty aur Babli board but I did see your post re the refugees. Took me some time to go through the posts to understand what was going on. Hence the late answer which is a vehement NO! I do not subscribe to the narrow definition of conferring refugee status. I agree with anil et al.
#65 Posted by miriamk on June 30, 2005 7:23:02 pm
#52
A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?
I think these economically independent women don’t need a man to be their provider. That doesn’t mean they don’t want fulfilling and lasting relationships with men. They just want more than the traditional desi husband-wife role allows them. Personally, I think that’s to be celebrated, not admonished. Men should want to be regarded as more than just “providers”. I would hope they have much more to offer on an intellectual and personal level than simply their earning potential.
The liberated woman isn’t looking for an indentured servant; rather she wants the man in her life to assume an active role in the marriage as a partner, and as a father to her children. What’s wrong with that?
There has been a blurring of gender roles (referring to the U.S. here), but again I regard that as a positive development. It allows couples to define what works for them in accordance with their personal brand of life. At the end of the day it’s about being with someone likeminded. If two people don’t share values and goals then it’s difficult to make a marriage work period.
A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?
I think these economically independent women don’t need a man to be their provider. That doesn’t mean they don’t want fulfilling and lasting relationships with men. They just want more than the traditional desi husband-wife role allows them. Personally, I think that’s to be celebrated, not admonished. Men should want to be regarded as more than just “providers”. I would hope they have much more to offer on an intellectual and personal level than simply their earning potential.
The liberated woman isn’t looking for an indentured servant; rather she wants the man in her life to assume an active role in the marriage as a partner, and as a father to her children. What’s wrong with that?
There has been a blurring of gender roles (referring to the U.S. here), but again I regard that as a positive development. It allows couples to define what works for them in accordance with their personal brand of life. At the end of the day it’s about being with someone likeminded. If two people don’t share values and goals then it’s difficult to make a marriage work period.
#64 Posted by _digit on June 30, 2005 6:17:13 pm
qawali,
`` A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?``
``Need`` in what sense, and why is this question asymmetrical wrt men?
`` One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``.``
One could...but the point was the term is NOT to be treated lightly. It`s all nice in the abstract, but the idea that YOU can identify who is and who is not a mushrik, munafiq, etc. opens you up for criticism just as well.
“Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots”
I dunno if colonization explains my mothers refusal to consider anyone from particular parts of India…
`` A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?``
``Need`` in what sense, and why is this question asymmetrical wrt men?
`` One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``.``
One could...but the point was the term is NOT to be treated lightly. It`s all nice in the abstract, but the idea that YOU can identify who is and who is not a mushrik, munafiq, etc. opens you up for criticism just as well.
“Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots”
I dunno if colonization explains my mothers refusal to consider anyone from particular parts of India…
#63 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 5:18:50 pm
Re: # 18
Salam Alaykum Sajal,
I had hoped you were going to answer the specific questions raised in the article, from the point of view of how can we solve this problem. What are the solutions, from a woman`s point of view, other than:
men should just obey, the new and subjective rules thought up by women?
> To create a happy, loving home both men and women have to work ``together``.
I agree
> You can not put more blame on the woman than the man,
For fairness, please quote the specific lines where I did that
> it is an equal task or commitment.
i agree there
> I agree women are becoming more educated and there is a lot of confusion as to what to expect and not to expect but it is not only on the part of women but men also.
sure. Yet since 1960`s, the degree of change that women have gone thru is huge, and men are trying to find ways to deal with that. The change in the women`s role, created a confusion about what is a man`s role with the new woman. What does a lot of damage is when the woman says ``I`ve changed, you just need to adjust``. Meaning she has done all the adjustments which serve her individual self. So the emphasis becomes on self-serving, and she expects the man to serve her too. And a good man will say, sis it`s good that you have become empowered, like my daddy used to be. But can we now go to the next level, where neither the man, nor the woman is self-serving, but instead both are serving the relationship?
> Men are confused too ,
Most of the role-confusion of men, resulted after the women changed. The parts of the new woman which have confusion, are the parts which cause confusion in men
> changing times, values , attitudes, economics make it difficult for both to adjust.
this is true, and sounds like the changes outside the home. And it`s different from what is causing the change in relationship roles in the home
> A sensible couple is one which understands each other and is ready to respect each other and stick to each other through thick and thin.
i agree.
> I am sorry to say that but you have written an article which is extremely biased towards women.
I hope you know that I take great care to not be biased toward any group. If i say that a lot of dentists i encounter, like car mechanics, try to rip people off. Does it mean I am biased against dentists? Help me out and list the specific lines which are extremely biased toward women. So I can clarify them. And if I find that I said something biased, I will be happy to apologize for it
> I will tell you this men are not so perfect either,
I agree, I never said men are perfect. I began the article by saying that too.
> so maybe you need to put on different glasses to look at men.
The breakdown of communication happens when both people say this. The person in power, the woman, is more likely to not want to put on different glasses, and this is what I`m asking her to do
>Divorce is a terrible reality,
A ``terrible reality``, I don`t understand what that means. I don`t define divorce in that way, though there are many complexities in it
> it simply means two people cannot live together for whatever reasons.
I disagree. It simply doesn`t mean that. And it isn`t for ``whatever`` unknown reasons.
How do I define divorce... It is like throwing your children in front of a school bus.
As the purpose of marriage is mostly about children, the effects of divorce are mostly on the children.
The children prefer that both parents died, instead of them getting divorced.
We can come up with lots of cases of successful, well adjusted, high achievers who are the children of divorce. Yet it is said:
It takes a whole village to raise a child.
Does the new woman think she is so powerful that she can do the whole job alone?
So an important question I ask women is:
What do you need a husband for?
> You are an educated man and I am sure you know that we cannot blame just one person for it. We have to look at all angles and then determine.
In psychology, an important idea is the difference between:
Responsibility versus Blame
As a common disease among us daysees is an un-examined life, hum apnay giraybaan may naheen jhaanktay.
As they say in twelve-step programs like AA:
Remember when you are pointing ONE finger at someone, THREE are pointing at yourself. (If we look at our hand, pointing).
Meaning, instead of blame, reframe
Instead of blaming the other person, take responsibility of your own actions.
As you said, to become educated, I have spent a dozen years studying this area of life. So I`ve tried very hard to keep my side of the street clean, to learn as much as I can, to do my best in my role toward a woman.
Women have learned a lot, in other areas. Because she is the main figure, the most inflential member of a family, if she does not learn about how to have good a relationship with her husband, the disintegration of the family will continue.
>Life happens in varying shades of gray and is not just black and white.
For me ``Life happens`` is not empowering, instead I believe:
Haalaat Kay Qadmo`n May Qalandar Naheen Girta
Tootay Bhee Jo Tara To Zameen Par Naheen Girta
Girtay Hain BaRRay Showk Say Samandar May Darya
Laykin Kisee Darya May Samandar Naheen Girta
The human is more powerful than his circumstances:
``Jahaan Hay Tayray Liyay
Tu Naheen Jahaan Kay Liyay``
- Iqbal
Now about life being grey, that`s a female point of view. Which is fine because men and women are different. For men, life is black and white, because we are simple creatures. Another reason why women being more complex, are superior to men.
This is why men play games which have black and white rules. In teams and groups, boys (like boy scouts) and men, always need a ``Code of Honor`` to operate, otherwise we kill each other, if we think in grey.
Men and women are ying and yang, blending into each other, yet each part of the ying yang symbol is clearly identifiable.
An important question I ask is:
As a woman increases her education and income,
Does she decrease her responsibilites toward the relationship with a husband?
Salam Alaykum Sajal,
I had hoped you were going to answer the specific questions raised in the article, from the point of view of how can we solve this problem. What are the solutions, from a woman`s point of view, other than:
men should just obey, the new and subjective rules thought up by women?
> To create a happy, loving home both men and women have to work ``together``.
I agree
> You can not put more blame on the woman than the man,
For fairness, please quote the specific lines where I did that
> it is an equal task or commitment.
i agree there
> I agree women are becoming more educated and there is a lot of confusion as to what to expect and not to expect but it is not only on the part of women but men also.
sure. Yet since 1960`s, the degree of change that women have gone thru is huge, and men are trying to find ways to deal with that. The change in the women`s role, created a confusion about what is a man`s role with the new woman. What does a lot of damage is when the woman says ``I`ve changed, you just need to adjust``. Meaning she has done all the adjustments which serve her individual self. So the emphasis becomes on self-serving, and she expects the man to serve her too. And a good man will say, sis it`s good that you have become empowered, like my daddy used to be. But can we now go to the next level, where neither the man, nor the woman is self-serving, but instead both are serving the relationship?
> Men are confused too ,
Most of the role-confusion of men, resulted after the women changed. The parts of the new woman which have confusion, are the parts which cause confusion in men
> changing times, values , attitudes, economics make it difficult for both to adjust.
this is true, and sounds like the changes outside the home. And it`s different from what is causing the change in relationship roles in the home
> A sensible couple is one which understands each other and is ready to respect each other and stick to each other through thick and thin.
i agree.
> I am sorry to say that but you have written an article which is extremely biased towards women.
I hope you know that I take great care to not be biased toward any group. If i say that a lot of dentists i encounter, like car mechanics, try to rip people off. Does it mean I am biased against dentists? Help me out and list the specific lines which are extremely biased toward women. So I can clarify them. And if I find that I said something biased, I will be happy to apologize for it
> I will tell you this men are not so perfect either,
I agree, I never said men are perfect. I began the article by saying that too.
> so maybe you need to put on different glasses to look at men.
The breakdown of communication happens when both people say this. The person in power, the woman, is more likely to not want to put on different glasses, and this is what I`m asking her to do
>Divorce is a terrible reality,
A ``terrible reality``, I don`t understand what that means. I don`t define divorce in that way, though there are many complexities in it
> it simply means two people cannot live together for whatever reasons.
I disagree. It simply doesn`t mean that. And it isn`t for ``whatever`` unknown reasons.
How do I define divorce... It is like throwing your children in front of a school bus.
As the purpose of marriage is mostly about children, the effects of divorce are mostly on the children.
The children prefer that both parents died, instead of them getting divorced.
We can come up with lots of cases of successful, well adjusted, high achievers who are the children of divorce. Yet it is said:
It takes a whole village to raise a child.
Does the new woman think she is so powerful that she can do the whole job alone?
So an important question I ask women is:
What do you need a husband for?
> You are an educated man and I am sure you know that we cannot blame just one person for it. We have to look at all angles and then determine.
In psychology, an important idea is the difference between:
Responsibility versus Blame
As a common disease among us daysees is an un-examined life, hum apnay giraybaan may naheen jhaanktay.
As they say in twelve-step programs like AA:
Remember when you are pointing ONE finger at someone, THREE are pointing at yourself. (If we look at our hand, pointing).
Meaning, instead of blame, reframe
Instead of blaming the other person, take responsibility of your own actions.
As you said, to become educated, I have spent a dozen years studying this area of life. So I`ve tried very hard to keep my side of the street clean, to learn as much as I can, to do my best in my role toward a woman.
Women have learned a lot, in other areas. Because she is the main figure, the most inflential member of a family, if she does not learn about how to have good a relationship with her husband, the disintegration of the family will continue.
>Life happens in varying shades of gray and is not just black and white.
For me ``Life happens`` is not empowering, instead I believe:
Haalaat Kay Qadmo`n May Qalandar Naheen Girta
Tootay Bhee Jo Tara To Zameen Par Naheen Girta
Girtay Hain BaRRay Showk Say Samandar May Darya
Laykin Kisee Darya May Samandar Naheen Girta
The human is more powerful than his circumstances:
``Jahaan Hay Tayray Liyay
Tu Naheen Jahaan Kay Liyay``
- Iqbal
Now about life being grey, that`s a female point of view. Which is fine because men and women are different. For men, life is black and white, because we are simple creatures. Another reason why women being more complex, are superior to men.
This is why men play games which have black and white rules. In teams and groups, boys (like boy scouts) and men, always need a ``Code of Honor`` to operate, otherwise we kill each other, if we think in grey.
Men and women are ying and yang, blending into each other, yet each part of the ying yang symbol is clearly identifiable.
An important question I ask is:
As a woman increases her education and income,
Does she decrease her responsibilites toward the relationship with a husband?
#62 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:40:23 pm
Re: # 17
Wow!
Thank you for giving us a personal example, from the same household. I agree with everything you`re saying.
Only one thing, I don`t use the word ``subservient``.
Women are the managers of relationships, because as childbirth, they are genetically geared toward relationships, and have been also socially so, for thousands of years.
I also believe women are superior to men in almost every way.
I don`t have anything against working women, or independent, liberated, westernized women. I just ask this question, feminism succeeded in getting lots of rights, and giving lots of power to women, but did it teach women how to have good relationships with men?
Wow!
Thank you for giving us a personal example, from the same household. I agree with everything you`re saying.
Only one thing, I don`t use the word ``subservient``.
Women are the managers of relationships, because as childbirth, they are genetically geared toward relationships, and have been also socially so, for thousands of years.
I also believe women are superior to men in almost every way.
I don`t have anything against working women, or independent, liberated, westernized women. I just ask this question, feminism succeeded in getting lots of rights, and giving lots of power to women, but did it teach women how to have good relationships with men?
#61 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:33:16 pm
Re: # 16
The influence of parents is huge among daysees, specially the mother. Just like Caucasian americans can pass on their bigotry to the future generations, similarly, our parents pass on their biases, which can take time to overcome, but first we have to acknowledge that we have a problem, for example a over-emphasis on fair skin. Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots. So that we end up behaving like we were born yesterday, when disconnected from history
The influence of parents is huge among daysees, specially the mother. Just like Caucasian americans can pass on their bigotry to the future generations, similarly, our parents pass on their biases, which can take time to overcome, but first we have to acknowledge that we have a problem, for example a over-emphasis on fair skin. Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots. So that we end up behaving like we were born yesterday, when disconnected from history
#60 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:27:39 pm
Re: # 14
Yes, you make excellent points, about the role of parents.
Also, as you said, if the person today was looking in the mainstream, they may find more folks, compared to a muslim in america looking specifically for a muslim spouse, which is a very small group set to fill the requirements
Yes, you make excellent points, about the role of parents.
Also, as you said, if the person today was looking in the mainstream, they may find more folks, compared to a muslim in america looking specifically for a muslim spouse, which is a very small group set to fill the requirements
#59 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:21:05 pm
Re: # 11
I`m not hear to condemn anyone. If we look at the statement in a broader context, we can examine the symptoms of the patient. If the patient keeps eating junk food, and pretends he eats good food, then it explains why he`s not healthy today. Hopefully tomorrow he`ll feel better
I`m not hear to condemn anyone. If we look at the statement in a broader context, we can examine the symptoms of the patient. If the patient keeps eating junk food, and pretends he eats good food, then it explains why he`s not healthy today. Hopefully tomorrow he`ll feel better
#57 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:17:21 pm
Re: # 9
Most of my activist friends drink and can still have good conversations, specially in the day time. Getting a date is not a problem, it`s easy, as you said, in a bar, on dating websites, etc.
Depends on what one is looking for. I`m not looking for a date, which is a short-term type relationship. Marriage is a long-term type relationship
As for definitions... Even Iqbal says that even a person who calls himself `muslim` could have behavior which could be identified as `kafir`.
The definitions apply to all humans; muslims and non-muslims alike
Most of my activist friends drink and can still have good conversations, specially in the day time. Getting a date is not a problem, it`s easy, as you said, in a bar, on dating websites, etc.
Depends on what one is looking for. I`m not looking for a date, which is a short-term type relationship. Marriage is a long-term type relationship
As for definitions... Even Iqbal says that even a person who calls himself `muslim` could have behavior which could be identified as `kafir`.
The definitions apply to all humans; muslims and non-muslims alike
#56 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:11:53 pm
Re: # 7
There is a lot of confusion around. And a lot of folks don`t know what they want, except more money and more imitation of what`s on TV. What I want is better relationships near and far
There is a lot of confusion around. And a lot of folks don`t know what they want, except more money and more imitation of what`s on TV. What I want is better relationships near and far
#55 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:09:35 pm
Re: # 5
I have frequently had conversations with people who were high on marijuana or alchol. The next day, the meaninglessness of the conversation is evident.
As for religion, depends on how one defines himself. Based on how you identify yourself, you try to find a compatible partner. For example two people who enjoy drinking, might get along well and have a great time together
I have frequently had conversations with people who were high on marijuana or alchol. The next day, the meaninglessness of the conversation is evident.
As for religion, depends on how one defines himself. Based on how you identify yourself, you try to find a compatible partner. For example two people who enjoy drinking, might get along well and have a great time together
#53 Posted by qawali on June 30, 2005 4:02:55 pm
Re: # 2
Dude from Canada,
One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``. You make some assumptions that I am against conservative Muslims. I am talking about muslims and non-muslims alike, we can all be mushrik, munafiq, momin, kafir, mohsin, etc.
If you`d like solutions, you could visit my website. I`m all about solutions. The main solution is pre-marital training as some Catholics do
Dude from Canada,
One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``. You make some assumptions that I am against conservative Muslims. I am talking about muslims and non-muslims alike, we can all be mushrik, munafiq, momin, kafir, mohsin, etc.
If you`d like solutions, you could visit my website. I`m all about solutions. The main solution is pre-marital training as some Catholics do
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