Muslims Not Married in America

Interesting article...I think men and women need to work in `collaboration` rather than in `competition` with each other!!! Also, in relationships, whatever part of the world one belongs, there is always the `respect` factor that does the trick. Accomodating, appreciating and respecting eachother`s differences and moving on from there makes for a healthy relationship. It is important for the couple to see eachother as being `on the same side` rather than pitted `against` eachother. Ultimately, both partners have to `want` to make it work!

divorce rates might be higher now, but whether ur talking about the old world or new world, there have always been marriages that were only in name and were practically divorces in everyway but name.

females couldn`t afford it before, now they can.

divorce rates can be measured, failed marriages aren`t or haven`t been to my knowlegde..the point isn`t the divorce, it`s the marriage that failed...a big difference between now and then is that now its more out in the open.

I believe people should realize that they are suppose to live more for the others [which I konw is pratically very hard to do] and less for themselves. If they do that most probably their domestic problem will be solved.

Sacrifice is all we need. If we sacrifice part of ourself for the others and in response others sacrifice part of theirself for us, the result is sure to be a happy progressive family. What a happiness is worth more than that. So this is how jest of the story goes: Sacrifice and Sacrifice, and Sacrifice, and Sacrifice................ and lets hope God bless you.............

``America is a female-dominated society as Pakistan is a male-dominated society.``

I`ll agree that Pakistan is a male-dominated society...so women learn to stay on the sidelines from day-one.

America is not female-dominated. Females do not have this inate need to dominate. They just want to feel equal and accepted. They feel this is their right. (I`m not saying all females are angels)

Males, on the otherhand, are the same everywhere. They have an inate need to dominate their women.

The difference in American vs Pakistani women is, the American women don`t have any experience with dominating men all around them as they do in Pakistan starting from the family unit, so you can`t blame the women for their ignorance on how to deal with their controlling men.

The women in America know the truth about how men are, that they want submission, and it`s so depressing that no one wants to get married anymore.

``As women enter the corporate world, and experience the economic power and independence, they may feel like they don’t need a man.``

That`s not true..everyone is wishing for true love.

``Yet that aside, it is true that in Pakistan the wife has to serve the man. In America, the husband is told to serve the wife.``

I agree in PK women serve the man, and they see nothing wrong with that. In America, the wives have an expectation to be treated well in return (though I have seen some very mean and controlling women in America). But when the women see that they might not be treated well, and they might not ever be appreciated or accepted for who they are besides a housewife, they think why get married.

Basically this is a real issue, and it is really scary. I want the youth to want to get married. But how can we convince them when it seems so unfulfilling?

At the same time, the negativity in articles like yours, and from ``aunties`` in the community blaming all the divorces on the girls, makes them feel even worse about the idea, and worse about themselves...without them ever really understanding the root problem -- that men are men...they have to dominate...and how to really be ok with that and adjust yourself to that.

An evolved response for a revolutionary:Mirror to Mirror
by. A.A.Long

Mirror me Mirror you
Mirroring what is true
Mirror me Mirror you
The Ugly inside
comes surface too

Your mirror`s silver comes to tarnish
Mirroring Dark pained halls
of the school of life

Mirror me Mirror you
Mirroring and adieu

as I shimmer and reflect the image of your
so called true self
you return to my sight
a chimera visage
of that which is draped in beauty and fine handsomeness
yet quenched and drenched in dark light-
a haze which drowns sight
of who we think we are
and who i think you might be
the silver lined silicone fusion
shows illusion
sending senses allusions of confusion
and creating alliterated expletive hatred.
How can through such unclear shadows
can you truly see?
How can you quote scripture through such mists of the mind.
and of not the divine
Holy thou art NOT
but made as a man
as I made a woman be.
flawed confused conflicted
living on earthly seas
Judge not so harshly your chimera
for she reflects you as you reflect her.
For this evolution of muslimah
the evolution of muslim sons
Leaping to live in the Land of opportunity land of
scurrying and hurrying to and fro
9 to 5 ing , trying to avoid welfare crimes
and the brine of spousal emotional repudiation
with a facade of decoration,education, planned married situations
52- 40 plus hour work weeks and token vacation
sick days to take whose usage of is not ok
but babies you make make babies to burp and slurp,
and if not careful matey left in the 2 income latchkey lurches.
Or the dishonorable Talaq paradise.
Fathers make daughters. Are they not too muslim sons?
Encouraging and cajoling daughters to learn, earn and extol as Sorors in the Titulating Titloscracy Elite for sake of family Name, Titled in the educated finery of RN. AS.BS.JD MD OT PA PHD RN to increase her beauty and worth for higher,more luxurious, Rodeo Drive Mehr Tolls.and wedding Gold.
Quoting facts and Quoting fiction
but with all this quoting do you state the true picture?
reality bites
reality sucks
it hurts when it hurts
and mostly its too much
When he said,she said then we all say togethermostly the same thing.
But keep in mind
keep as foreward dictum: As the lock closes more doors become ajar waiting for you to step through and give it a look with new eyes. your heart cleansed by forge and made new.
Lament no more my brother, as the state of this Ummah changes day to day and person to person.

Pay it forward and one day you will see on the long path of dunya

Mirror to mirror and that mirror is me.

I haven`t read such and upsetting and overtly sexist article in a very long time. Excuse me?? How does one react to the new muslim woman? First of all, a professional woman myself, I have never met a muslim woman who believes she does `not need a man`. To the contrary, women in their mid-twenties to thirties after having achieved their academic and professional goals have been desparate to get married, only to find that most Desi men of their caliber are either more interested in whites/filipinos/and latinas or believe they have plenty of time to cruise the marriage market. American raised men are just as piggish as the Pakistani ones, I doubt many of them are assuming servile positions to their wives. The author seems to think that a woman who is earning money and keeping a household has no right to ask her husband to help around the house. Also, I take grave offense to the accusation that sex, alcohol, and racism are American values. Im sorry, I have not known a people more racist than Pakistanis themselves, and if Americans were so racist, I dont think our author friend would even be here. Muslim women in America have no new ``power``. To the contrary, our parents thought our education would be a lasting hope, but really, feminism has earned the Muslim woman an additional burden of providing income, keeping a household, and hearing sexist accusations like those of this author. How is the American Muslim woman to cope with the new muslim man?

Are you Salim Chauhan`s brother?

General Comment about ``bias``...
If someone says:
she has buck teeth because Condoleeza Rice lies through her teeth

then is this a biased statement against women?

I greatly respect women like the writers and activists Arundhati Roy and

Laura Flanders who is the Author of ``Bush Women``, a book which talks about the estrogen shield, and how the ``images of women in charge`` are used by politicians to distract the world from the real issues

> re: #1 by shehryar on June 30, 2005 12:20pm PT
* (an interact by shehryar posted under my bio)

> Fazeel, I think you have made some good observations in your article. Unfortunately, it is not in the interest of of the recently ``empowered`` women to admit to their great expectations of men. The bottomline is that whoever has power is abusing it, whether man or woman. Just like a child with a gun; who has the means to detruction but lacks maturity and discipline to restraint.

* I definitely agree with you. And hope the article conveyed this also from a constructive point of view?

> You might like to check this website http://www.savethemales.ca/000180.html

* Thanks.
* I took a quick look, and wasn`t sure about the purpose of the website. Wish Makow had put something like a mission statement. Yet, I saw some articles related to feminism, which tends to validate my observations so far, that most of the feminist pioneers are lesbian, and thus why would they teach women how to have good relationships with men?

*often the message has been to women ``become a man``. As I said before, I believe women are superior to men. If women are told to behave in a masculine manner and men are told to become feminized, then such encouragement toward both to become androgenous would sure be evidence pushing homosexuality, and away from heterosexuality. Sounds also like the melting pot idea, to put both genders in a juicer, or a meat grinder, and come out the other end with something ``homogenous``.

* Just like the Canadian policy of the ``Salad Bowl`` approach versus the American idea of ``melting down`` everyone, I prefer that people from various cultures and genders can maintain their identities and bring their best to contribute to the salad bowl community

> And now a little something for you to think about: You have implied that women are no longer sincere, but rather self-centered and materialistic.

* What I mean is, this is the general trend to be self-centered. As is common in many pop songs that talk about ``me, myself and I``. Or the old trend of N.I.M.B.Y. ... if the event happening is Not In My Back Yard, then I don`t care.

* Or the bumper sticker seen in southern california:
``There is no life east of Pacific Coast Highway``

> Actually, my perception is that men in general do NOT appreciate sincere women. What they appreciate and admire is physical beauty above all. And then wealth, influence, etc. Its a two-way street my dear. Sherry

* There is truth to what you`re saying, that there are such men out there, but your and my friends ain`t among them, right? Physical beauty is desirable for most men, and sincerity is essential to make a marriage last. A WOMAN`S wealth and influence cannot make a marriage last. It is part of masculinity to be a productive member of society and make your own money. Only in rare cases are men living off of women`s wealth and influence.

* sure, in general, it is a two way street. But not in the sense that you mentioned. For me it`s a two-way street meaning both people need to make the effort, and develop the character, and give the devotion toward the partner. Taking advantage of the partner or taking them for granted, is simply just using him, if not abusing him (or her)

Re: # 1 Will you marry an atheist? Think again before talkin crap.........dont mean to come hard on you but sometimes its better if you pay attention

Re: General

* What is the purpose of an InterAct:
(1) In the writings classes, people provided feedback to the writer. The purpose was to assist each other in the development of better writing skills. The method was positive. This process is called to critique, which is different from plain criticism designed to make the writer wrong at any expense
(2) I am happy to respond to any specific questions, if it`s phrased in a way which would be educational for other readers also
(3) If some posts a personal attack. That`s off track. Don`t be a hater
(4) A civil and respectful dialogue can be mutually beneficial, if that goal is kept in mind in the course of the conversation... asking ``Where are we going with this``
(5) I can`t waste my time in trying to change the mind of stubborn person
(6) I don`t get any benefit from making you wrong, nor from ego centered arguments
(7) Let`s have positive interaction which results in a win / win situation

Re: # 42
> by mussarat on June 29, 2005 12:33pm PT
> grunge,

> Your mothers preference doesn`t surprise me, it`s yours that was the shocker! To my mother-in-laws dismay, she didn`t get to pick me...Although my husband, held opinions very similar to yours, till we met of course, it wasn`t after we got married that he realized what he would`ve have missed, if he had married the so called (and personally non-existant) ``ideal wife``

* Any man dare say that the probability of finding the ``ideal husband`` is better than finding the ``ideal wife``?

* If both are non-existent, what role models are we striving toward?
* Or is each person re-inventing the wheel?

> It seems like your not looking for a wife, but rather someone who can tend to your house and kids

* Sure, some men may be looking for a maid. And these days, the ``opportunity cost`` is far less expensive if a man chooses to stay single and hires a maid for household chores, eats out instead of hiring a cook. Is this what women are competing with? The male version of the maid, which career women may be looking for, is the domesticated pet, as mentioned at the beginning of the article.

* The topic of kids is the most important. Perhaps people just want to ``tend to the kids``, and that`s why they grow up to be... part of the powerless masses?

* See a maid can clean house. But a baby sitter is no substitute for his children`s real mom. This is the main problem that men face today.

> What education has given us, as women is the realization that marriage is a partnership. My husband is in no way my superior, but rather my partner, who I have immense love and respect for, as he does for me.

* true partnership is the ``ideal``
: o )

> I don`t have kids as yet, but can safely say that the gruelling task really is the giving birth part. As far as raising kids is concerned, again it`s a partnership. Your child needs a father as much as as he/she needs a mother. I won`t deny that a mother is more than likely to get more involved, but it can do no harm for a father to be just as involved. I can safely say that your child will grow up with the values you own, and more than likely be a secure individual. I was blessed with parents who believed in this priniciple, and I felt no distinction in treatment when it came to me and my brother. Most importantly we saw a good marriage, where my father treated my mother with equal respect, and although my mother was highly educated, she chose to stay home when she had kids (somethin that was not enforced by my father).

* You sound like a good woman, who`s mature and understands her role

> ...I don`t mean to sound harsh, but rather am stating reality.

* can I use the same line to reply to my critics?
: o )

Re: # 41
> by ShoreSahib on June 29, 2005 12:17pm PT

* Payan you are extremely kind.
: o )
Thanks a lot.
So I guess there is hope?

* ShoreSahib, thanks really, cause you so having so much knowledge, your comments mean a lot.

* Wishing you the best in your work also, Fazeel Chauhan

Re: # 39

> I thought when I read the article i.e. i dont know if this is meant to be funny or if its badly expressed dogma

* Sure there is some humor in it. There is no dogma in it. But a lot of reasoning, observations, experience, and most of all concerns about relationships and children of divorce.

> anyway, i found this entertaining although i didnt understand what the second part of the article [culled, apparently, from the posts of several chowkie interactors] had to do with muslim marriage in the US. So i`m looking forward to your post now.

* Help me out. I don`t know which is the second part. Perhaps point me to a line or idea, and ask me how it`s related to marriage. I`d be happy to post a reply.

* P.S. I didn`t understand what you said in the brackets [culled ... ]. If you mean did I use quotes from the posts of chowkie interactors, no... my info and sources were all from outside of chowk interactors.

Re: # 38

> ps: just FYI am not a muslimah...but have beed told am high maintenance;)

* Translation: No matter what my qualifications are, the faulty part of the engine will be refused ``maintenance`` because what you demand does not exist.


> i just clicked on your intro which informs me: `` Fazeel Azeez Chauhan is an Activist and Poet. He has written extensively on issues related to Pakistani immigrants in America and has been published in Pakistan Link. Studying the Anthropologists in in Los Angeles for twenty years.....

* I`m glad you`re reading

> hmmmm....digression time: anthropology: anthropology, classification and analysis of humans and their society, descriptively, culturally, historically, and physically. Its unique contribution to studying the bonds of human social relations has been the distinctive concept of culture. It has also differed from other sciences concerned with human social behavior (especially sociology) in its emphasis on data from nonliterate peoples and archaeological exploration.(from net) end digression...

* You may be reading. But not understanding the meaning.
Anthropology has generally been something created by our western friends, to study the ``dirty natives`` like me. It has generally been the study by Caucasians, about ``the other``, the non-whites usually. It is a labeling and defining of a people (like mine) by somebody who`s looking from the outside, usually making judgements. See the old issues of National Geographic. Or read my poem called ``Invisible Frontears``.

* The point is, who`s studying the anthropoloGISTS.

* Who`s studying the historians?

> so my query to you would be to cite your sources for this delay in getting married...we need to establish this delay beyond reasonable doubt

* Please read the new book by your fellow ``woman``:

Marriage, a History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage

* I heard her on an interview where she said in Europe, it is pretty obvious that people are avoiding marriage.

* So even if it`s only a delay in the U.S.... look around

> ...and while at it you have to establish the same (prevalence) of immaturity...this latter is very important...

* You raise a very crucial point here... IMMATURITY, perhaps a word which encompasses ALL problems.

* Please read the book ``Iron John`` by Robert Bly

* in the recent past, in all cultures, boys were initiated into manhood. The ``Rites of Passage`` were a series of training by the wise elders of a tribe, and they would hand down all the wisdom of previous generations, to the boy, so that he knows all he needs to become a successful man. The emphasis was on overall character, not on money making. And this was how mature old men, instilled maturity in younger men. And that is a main reason why maturity is missing.

* And also because people may go to 4 or 10 years of university. But never take a single class about personal development nor about relationships. Often folks go to college to become money making machines.

> ...you have to be more explicit in elucidating whose `immaturity` you have in mind...we the readers have a charter of rights too. you know....and this is so loaded and ambiguous this first sentence violates clauses 3, 7, 9 and 13 of the charter of reader`s rights...

* what about men`s rights?
: o )

> ...who is immature....Muslim, America as in the USA?

* Those are deep questions, no?

> ...are the muslims confused about the institution of marriage itself? do they think it is out-dated?...or are they confused of who should wear the pants in the new family envisaged?...or is confusion on the prevalence of necessity?

* More good questions, the article`s working. So I`d sure want to hear any positive contribution to a discussion by you answering these important questions.

> ...under the laws of necessity drastic and irreparable damage has been done to the national psyche (i cite the late justice munir)...these measures have been the last nail in the enigmatic conundrum facilitating foggy musings on a humid warm day in the aftermath of a lovely barbecue dissertation on the need and victory of rationality over regression in the much touted victory of prevailing winds of change over static back-to-womb charges essayed by the dormancy advocating hirsute...

* well put
: o )

> you sir are either a genius or baffling poor me...

* I`m not trying to baffle anyone, for sure

> i need a drink...it is very warm and humid and i am still on the first sentence...
oh no, this was only the first sentence?!
lol

Re: # 36

Seems like this statistic scares you and that`s why you are in denial about it?

Re: # 37

* I don`t know CAIR`s official statistics. But one of the speakers at a CAIR conference in Long Beach (Los Angeles) a couple of years ago, did make this claim that among Muslims in America, the divorce rate is estimated at 35%

* You may want to look around, and also check with your local masjid. I know in Los Angeles, #35% seems real. In smaller towns it may be less.

* An old statistic about the overall American population is:
If 100 people get married today, then three years later, only 50 will be left married. Out of those 50 still married, only 25 will remain married seven years after the wedding.

* Meaning the overall divorce rate in America is 50% after 3 years. And 75% after 7 years. So the subset, the Muslims are doing better. But my personal concern is that since we are more confused because of mixing eastern confusion with western confusion, I wouldn`t be surprised that the 35% will increase. Specially because within our group, people are less likely to seek therapy or training, because of the common notion of ``I know it all``, even while suffering.

* I`m asking a lot of questions. But am not trying to put down my own people, daysi, or Muslim, in preference for other groups. I`m just trying to shed some light in some dusty cobwebbed corners so that we can make improvements

Re: # 36

: o )
Interesting.
It was at a CAIR seminar in Los Angeles a couple of years ago, that one of the panelists discussing marriage, said that the divorce rate among American Muslims is estimated at 35%

Other than that, yea, people say life and death is in the hand of God, and matches are made in heaven... I know not.

Re: # 35
* There are many forms of art, where the connections are not as ``obvious`` as lazy people would prefer. Deeper forms of art are multi-layered, for example traditional Urdu poetry. For example in Ghazal, the couplets are not required to be connected to each other.

* Some things need reading more than once, like a song. A good example is a musician named ``Immortal Technique``, another is the Simpsons. Both are examples of sub-references within a topic. The references can go from local to global, from something closely connected to the previous paragraph, to something distantly connected to the previous thought

* Another good example is most songs by Pink Floyd, and also their movie ``The Wall``. The first time you watch it, it seems not connected together. Upon seeing it multiple times, and discussing it with friends, one can understand it further. In that example, the teacher`s wife (BLAMING THE WOMAN AGAIN)
: o )
puts her husband down, he goes to school and puts the students down. She applies ``military`` discipline on him, he applies it on the boys, who grow up and admire the military killing machine, become soldiers and are killed, becoming canon fodder for multi-national corporations

Re: # 33

> These points which you mentioned are not soley found in Muslim women but a lot of women immigrants in the states who have to juggle and find sanity between two cultures share the same problems/confusions etc.But since, i am a desi living in desi land only, i can not speak on behalf of women based there

* Since Lollywood follows Bollywood, which follows Hollywood, this trend will keep infiltrating in desi land, like a fashion. Please read my replies to Sajal and others also.

> And, pray tell me, y, you have focused so much on single Muslim women?

* A 32 year old single muslim woman told me a few days ago, that she went to a masjid recently where they had an event for singles to get together. According to HER, most of the women were divorced, and most were in her age group.

* Perhaps read the article again, about why it`s mostly about Muslim women. It`s because in the last 40 years, it is the women who have gone thru a major change, they are confused about their new roles and this CAUSES confusion in men... as the beginning of this article states.

> Where are the obvious faults in Single Muslim men in the states?

* The role of a woman in a family is much more important than a man`s. Because she is a superior being. Specially with very superior relationship skills, this is also according to psychology.

* What men are doing wrong is basically not getting initiated into Manhood, through Rites of Passage, as in the not too distant past

> how, ironic: men always blame women for all their problems

* Usually, it`s the women who blame the man. Men are simple, thus easy to control by women. So it`s easier for a wife to help a husband to correct his problems. But if the wife has problems, it is nearly impossible for the husband to get her to open up and receive the help. Because his methods of motivation are not as effective as a woman`s. Specially when she`s working, she doesn`t have to listen to anything he says, specially about HER problems

Correction:
At the beginning of Sura Baqara, there are 4 Ayaat about Momin and 2 regarding Kafir

Not as slick but just article is as worldly as Amr Khaled`s teachings. Islam has defined roles for men and women specific to avoid such. The issue is not roles changing but Muslims allowing themselves to forget Islam. We can not date we can not be impure before marriage.

My Christian friends ask me why Muslims don`t date and laugh when I tell them about purdah in Pakistan. Then I ask them how they choose a mate - really by chance with no indepth knowledge of their deen. So who`s way is better - us perhaps not knowing a person indepth with selection made by parents or west ones whose parents have no say and do only entertainment dating that really tells nothing about persons character and ability to be good marriage partner? I think both ways help lead to divorce - especially in todays world.

Then again, we can not simply forget the traditions and teachings - Mohammed knew all his wives prior to marriage - and Khadijah persued Mohammed - so that is truly tradition. There is no problem with meeting spouse before marriage, it is the western style of ``knowing someone`` that creates problems. Stick to tradition.

Arjun #92, {:Not been married very long, have you :)
how`s it going man... ``}

No, I have not. Are you sharing something from your experience. :)
It`s great, I am very happy. Just miss the States, especially on the 4th of July.

Thanks for asking.
Salim

#91 by googenschlaugen on July 2, 2005 10:02am PT


I decided to marry a Turk in Turkey. Good decision. I am very happy as a result. :)
Salim

Not been married very long, have you :)

how`s it going man...

I was a Moose Limb living in America for almost fifteen years. Instead of marrying in America to a FOB desi, an ABCD, a kaali, or a gori, I decided to marry a Turk in Turkey. Good decision. I am very happy as a result. :)
Salim

gawali,

Post #24 was in response to grunge, not to you.

Re: # 32

Please list some specific examples

Re: # 31

What`s bigoted in that statement. You can use any other word in English, instead of ``Kafir`` as you prefer

Re: # 30

Dear Miss Rizvi,

> As a 27 year old unmarried Muslim American woman, let me say, ur article is scary.

* A a Muslim man, we may be more scared than you?

> someone else interacted and said, she didnt know where to start.

* Yes, it is a huge subject. I hope we can look at the many dimensions and avenues of it

> my two cents on this one:

* sis, I found your interaction valueable, caring and true

> it is difficult to find a man.

* Thus, women could help to send males to places where boys could be initiated into manhood.

> we also dont really feel like we need men to cook and clean up after UNLESS we loved them for who they are and they loved us for who we are, that includes us, our bodies, our eccentricities, complexities etc (that is normal for all humans).

* I agree. A man should get a maid instead, not a wife

> many muslim girls in the US get married since they are supposed to ( i am speaking only from a S. Asian perspective...there are plenty of other muslim communities in the US)

* I agree. Most people get married on auto-pilot

> and they realize that they were supposed to get married and all that was told to them aboutit was not what it was cracked up to be

* As the footnote of the article says, we need training. Also because we were miseducated or uneducated about relationships

* We`re pushed a lot to study and make money. Parents don`t tell you ``Make a million dollar marriage``

> and excaping their own mothers is really not enough reason to get married into another prison.

* Psychologist John Bradshaw calls this, the ``Poisonous Pedigogy``. Parents lacked training, and did the best they could. They pass on their bad habits to their children, who grow up and repeat the same patterns, blindly. And thus the dysfunctional behavior keeps being handed down to future generations

> It is a problem since as an interactor put it (grunge i think), there are plenty of traditional women to marry (and consequently divorce)

* good point about divorce. I guess a man could go back and keep getting married and getting divorced. Sounds painful though.

> who are fair skinned, obedient and sub servient.

* Some men may find those qualities boring. Indeed I know some cases where the men had become somewhat Americanized and a woman who is too submissive, they didn`t know how to deal with.

> good for u muslim men if that is what u want out of your life partner...its really sad that ur egos cant handle more but we have again, only ur mothers, women, to blame for that.

* As Islamic teachings emphasize balance...
I was hoping the article might indicate a need for that. Education is good for women, work may be good for women too. Often, an educated and mature woman, who`s also seen life in the work environment, often desires to quit her job and be a full time mom. Because that brings her more satisfaction than any career. She usually realizes this in her mid-thirties, if not before.

* A divorced single mother, could have a big job, a big house, a big bank account, but an empty heart, because she longs for a fulfilling relationship with a man

> i want babies, i like to cook and i have a life that is my own and i am willing to share it with someone who shares my values and thoughts on life. its rally not that much to ask.

* that`s what I`m saying in the article

> and why must we worry about getting married later? aint nothing wrong with that.

* yes, used to be women worried about the biological clock and wrinkles. But now modern medicine and hundred dollar facial creames can do wonders

> im fine with being a single mom too, though im not sure how well that goes down in islam. not very well culturally for sure but im sure islam is cool with it.

* Yes, that`s a common trend. See, women don`t need a man. They can go to a sperm bank, and have a baby, get the love from the child, like teenage moms do. A married woman can divorce, get half her hubby`s money, house, babies. And make him pay alimony and child support and she can live happily ever after?

Re: # 26

Thanks for understanding our frustrations

Re: # 25

> The main beef I have with your article is that you could have dropped the “Muslim” word and pretty much still made many of the same points. What you describe is also (by and large) true of Indians, too and the divorce rate is quite high (I know of three cases personally)

* Since I am in the subset group, a Muslim, and familiar mostly with that group, I didn`t want to make sweeping generalizations about other communities.

> You also make whole bunch of sweeping statements in the most general way (e.g., “We exhibit the attitude of a closed minded person, instead of having a student’s perspective.”)

* I meant to describe some of the general problems, or common tendencies that cause problems


> Notes:
[Usually women put a lot of emphasis on the desire to be entertained and complimented by men. Some even say “Lie to me, to make me happy”.]
> Some?

* Very funny, and true. Does she want me to become a liar?
: o )

[…women who are looking for a temporary fix: to combat boredom, curiosity, confusion.]
> I guess READING just doesn’t give the same level of satisfaction. Perhaps they could try WRITING!

* Could you please convince them?
: o )

[…developing the illusion that she is the most valuable commodity in heaven and earth. ]
> And just when I was getting used to thinking that MEN have that role.

* Men had that luxury in the home country. But in America, the woman tells the man, mayri khidmat karo, varna...

[(2) Kafir: They are the same inside and out, but don’t believe in living an honorable life, for example, based on the teachings of Islam.]
> I guess that would rule out all those HINDOOS as potential husband material – talk about narrowing down your own options! (Apne pairon per kulharee!)

* I phrased that statement, I thought with care... I think it clearly states, that ONE example of living an honorable life, is for a person who chooses to follow Islamic teachings.

* As Karen Armstrong says in her book ``A History of God``:

* The litmus test of a personal who follows any spiritual principles is, does it make him a more kind and compassionate human being

* In the Islamic tradition, we believe that there were prophets and messengers sent to every nation, in every era. Possibly there were 124,000 of such guides. Per Hamza Yusuf, it is likely that Buddha and Krishna were among such teachers.

Re: # 78

too much time on your hands, I meant that only for Mr. digit

Re: # 34

Watching Indian movies is a common pastime, no?

Re: # 24

> ``in accordance with islam, i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, raise and take care of the kids.``

* Which article did you get that quote from? It`s not in my article. A good principle to follow in life is, don`t make shtuff up

Re: # 23

> I`m simply seeking a like minded person...but in the end I would want one who, like myself, is willing to prioritize family above all else.

* This is one of my main points: What are the woman`s priorities shown in her behavior:
Herself as number one, or is it making money, or power at work via a career,

is it Money, Baby, Hubby?

Re: # 46

Very witty! a rare quality
: o )
You are indeed very funny. Thanks for making me laugh.

The truth is, no man worth his salt would become a domesticated pet. As Robert Bly says in his landmark book ``Iron John``...
There are three types of men:
1) The Savage man: Has no principles and boundaries
2) The Wild man: Follows principles and yet is free
3) The Domesticated Man: Weak on principles and not free, thus usually caged by a dominitrix

In New York, you can learn from my teacher:
http://higherpurpose.com

Re: # 22
: o )
I`m glad you were able to find the humor in that paragraph. Sometimes the situation is so bad, we have to laugh at it

Re: # 20

Babe, you have way too much time on your hands. Wish you all the best

Re: # 19
chauhan saheb:

> This article is teeming with so many inaccuracies, stereotypes and blatant untruths about women that I don’t even know where to begin.

* Some specifics would be helpful, which statements?

> Well, after you’re done excoriating (read: cutting down) women, how about lending a hand to women who are managing a career, home, children, and unhelpful husbands. That may restore the faith of “high maintenance”, “trigger happy” women in desi men.

* My intention is to lend a helping hand to women. The issue is, the new working Muslim woman thinks she`s number one, and above the children, above the husband. And also her career is the number one priority, above the children, above the husband.

* If the woman assumes she`s number one, the only way a man can make a relationship ``work`` is if he blindly obeys her. And what does he get in return?

> Sir, ever dared to envision a partnership between a husband and wife? You know, where instead of the wife being an unwavering vassal, the husband is not only cognizant but God forbid supportive of his partner’s needs (both personal and professional). Neither party lives in servitude. Imagine that.

* If you read the article again, without presumptions, you will find that I`m hoping for the same: A successful, respectful partnership

>I think if the author were truly serious about engaging readers in “a deeper study of relationship issues” he would not have made such benighted remarks about women,

* Please help me out here, and list some specific examples so I could respond to them

> and as _digit says placed a “disproportionate burden of maintaining the family” on them.

* Around age 35, a woman usually has to decide:
Do I want to be a career woman, or a woman with a career?

* If she is a career woman, that is her number one priority, which is also above her family.

* A family woman`s number one priority is her family, above all else. Her children are number one, her husband is number two, and she`s number three. Similarly, for a mutually beneficial partnership, the man`s number one priority has to be his children, number two his wife, and number three himself.

* Simply put, it a modified model of the old give before you receive

> You have gone out of your way to unabashedly pander to the insecurities of desi men

* Sounds like you`re saying daysi men are insecure. No one`s perfect, so some daysi men would be insecure. I don`t understand what that has to do with the article?

#75 by Netizen
[…Its been a long time since I heard the word ``KLPD`` used in a sentence. By any chance are you from BITS, Pilani…..]

Where have you BEEN? KLPD is one of our ancient (most sacred) pearls of thought used extensively in all nooks and corners of the Indian subcontinent, in every university class-room and dorm, day and night, even bathrooms, in every position imaginable, since the early 1950’s. I personally think it was among the few worthwhile legacies the British left behind in the subcontinent, a perfect epitome of our various freedoms of choice, for all sexes! For the benefit of those individuals who are still unclear regarding what the initials KLPD stand for, I produce below my own understanding of it!

KLPD = Kanhaiya Laal Premi-chand Dukhiyare.

Re: # 71

``Somehow, my gut instinct tells me that this was all played out in your imagination whilst you lay in bed cursing your girl friend for the KLPD!``

hahaha...
Its been a long time sinve I heard the word ``KLPD`` used in a sentence. By any chance are you from BITS, Pilani. I had few roommates from there, they used to use it often, along with ``basically``.

#66 MiriamK

Thanks, you have no idea how reassuring I find that you do not subscribe to the crap mentioned on that board. I am sorry about all the “unladylike” language (that you may have encountered) the janitor in me has been spewing all over the place. However, like all things in life (good and bad) this one shall pass, too! Someday perhaps, so shall the janitor! After his purpose is complete, or perhaps after His purpose is complete (I suppose there must be one (assuming there IS One, right?).) Again, sorry about my language!

# 68 by Soulat

LOL!! That was funny even if it wasn`t real.

So which one is you,

A lawyer married a woman who had previously divorced ten husbands.

On their wedding night, she told her new husband, ``Please be gentle, I`m still a virgin.``

``What?`` said the puzzled groom.

``How can that be if you`ve been married ten times?``

``Well, Husband #1 was a sales representative: he kept telling me how great it was going to be.

Husband #2 was in software services: he was never really sure how it was supposed to function, but he said he`d look into it and get back to me.

Husband #3 was from field services: he said everything checked out diagnostically but he just couldn`t get the system up.

Husband #4 was in telemarketing: even though he knew he had the order, he didn`t know when he would be able to deliver.

Husband #5 was an engineer: he understood the basic process but wanted three years to research, implement, and design a new state-of-the-art method.

Husband #6 was from finance and administration: he thought he knew how, but he wasn`t sure whether it was his job or not.

Husband #7 was in marketing: although he had a nice product, he was never sure how to position it.

Husband #8 was a psychologist: all he ever did was talk about it.

Husband #9 was a gynecologist: all he did was look at it.

Husband #10 was a stamp collector: all he ever did was... God! I miss him! But now that I`ve married you, I`m really excited!``

``Good,`` said the new husband, ``but, why?``

``You`re a lawyer. This time I know I`m gonna get screwed!``

#68 if it was a joke then

but seriously man, you need to get a life and find out, if you a sentient being can waste some much of your time in thinking up this little revenge I wouldnt be surprised if even doormats rebel.
Somehow, my gut instinct tells me that this was all played out in your imagination whilst you lay in bed cursing your girl friend for the KLPD!

Muslim women in islamic countries, oppressed and suppressed in their homes, once they get to the west get consumed by penis envy.They think and act like men, most of them become lesbians and become devious and sly like that `Alam` b*tch, `cause that`s how they think men are.These women are so stupid they creep me out.No wonder no muslim man wants to go near these trolls.

Re: # 68
Apparently not!!

With that remark, I`d be surprised if you`d get any for a very long time.

Yikes, man.

Maybe, ``You need to hold me`` is code for longer foreplay. Get the hint.

I never quite figured out why the sexual urge of men and women differ so
much. And I never have figured out the whole Venus and Mars thing. I have
never figured out why men think with their head and women with their heart.

FOR EXAMPLE: One evening last week, my girlfriend and I were getting into
bed.

Well, the passion starts to heat up, and she eventually says ``I don`t feel
like it, I just want you to hold me.``

I said ``WHAT??!! What was that?!``

So she says the words that every boyfriend on the planet dreads to hear...
``You`re just not in touch with my emotional needs as a woman enough for me
to satisfy your physical needs as a man.`` She responded to my puzzled look
by saying, ``Can`t you just love me for who I am and not what I do for you in
the bedroom?``

Realizing that nothing was going to happen that night, I went to sleep.

The very next day I opted to take the day off of work to spend time with
her. We went out to a nice lunch and then went shopping at a big, big
unnamed department store. I walked around with her while she tried on
several different very expensive outfits. She couldn`t decide which one to
take so I told her we`d just buy them all. She wanted new shoes to
compliment her new clothes, so I said lets get a pair for each outfit. We
went onto the jewelry department where she picked out a pair of diamond
earrings. Let me tell you...she was so excited. She must have thought I was
one wave short of a shipwreck. I started to think she was testing me because
she asked for a tennis bracelet when she doesn`t even know how to play
tennis. I think I threw her for a loop when I said, ``That`s fine, honey.``
She was almost nearing sexual satisfaction from all of the excitement.
Smiling with excited anticipation she finally said, ``I think this is all
dear, let`s go to the cashier.``

I could hardly contain myself when I blurted out, ``No honey, I don`t feel
like it.``

Her face just went completely blank as her jaw dropped with a baffled
WHAT?``

I then said ``honey! I just want you to HOLD this stuff for a while. You`re
just not in touch with my financial needs as a man enough for me to satisfy
your shopping needs as a woman.`` And just when she had this look like she
was going to kill me, I added, ``Why can`t you just love me for who I am and
not for the things I buy you?``

Apparently I`m not having sex tonight either.

miriam #65:

think universal yaar: it is about relationship between equals

if there are constraints -- religious or social or cultural than it is not a `stirve` on an even field...

just that!

lve

t

Beej:
#73

A total aside: I was not interacting on the Bunty aur Babli board but I did see your post re the refugees. Took me some time to go through the posts to understand what was going on. Hence the late answer which is a vehement NO! I do not subscribe to the narrow definition of conferring refugee status. I agree with anil et al.

#52

A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?

I think these economically independent women don’t need a man to be their provider. That doesn’t mean they don’t want fulfilling and lasting relationships with men. They just want more than the traditional desi husband-wife role allows them. Personally, I think that’s to be celebrated, not admonished. Men should want to be regarded as more than just “providers”. I would hope they have much more to offer on an intellectual and personal level than simply their earning potential.

The liberated woman isn’t looking for an indentured servant; rather she wants the man in her life to assume an active role in the marriage as a partner, and as a father to her children. What’s wrong with that?

There has been a blurring of gender roles (referring to the U.S. here), but again I regard that as a positive development. It allows couples to define what works for them in accordance with their personal brand of life. At the end of the day it’s about being with someone likeminded. If two people don’t share values and goals then it’s difficult to make a marriage work period.

qawali,

`` A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?``

``Need`` in what sense, and why is this question asymmetrical wrt men?

`` One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``.``

One could...but the point was the term is NOT to be treated lightly. It`s all nice in the abstract, but the idea that YOU can identify who is and who is not a mushrik, munafiq, etc. opens you up for criticism just as well.

“Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots”

I dunno if colonization explains my mothers refusal to consider anyone from particular parts of India…

Re: # 18

Salam Alaykum Sajal,

I had hoped you were going to answer the specific questions raised in the article, from the point of view of how can we solve this problem. What are the solutions, from a woman`s point of view, other than:
men should just obey, the new and subjective rules thought up by women?

> To create a happy, loving home both men and women have to work ``together``.

I agree

> You can not put more blame on the woman than the man,

For fairness, please quote the specific lines where I did that

> it is an equal task or commitment.
i agree there

> I agree women are becoming more educated and there is a lot of confusion as to what to expect and not to expect but it is not only on the part of women but men also.

sure. Yet since 1960`s, the degree of change that women have gone thru is huge, and men are trying to find ways to deal with that. The change in the women`s role, created a confusion about what is a man`s role with the new woman. What does a lot of damage is when the woman says ``I`ve changed, you just need to adjust``. Meaning she has done all the adjustments which serve her individual self. So the emphasis becomes on self-serving, and she expects the man to serve her too. And a good man will say, sis it`s good that you have become empowered, like my daddy used to be. But can we now go to the next level, where neither the man, nor the woman is self-serving, but instead both are serving the relationship?

> Men are confused too ,

Most of the role-confusion of men, resulted after the women changed. The parts of the new woman which have confusion, are the parts which cause confusion in men

> changing times, values , attitudes, economics make it difficult for both to adjust.

this is true, and sounds like the changes outside the home. And it`s different from what is causing the change in relationship roles in the home

> A sensible couple is one which understands each other and is ready to respect each other and stick to each other through thick and thin.

i agree.

> I am sorry to say that but you have written an article which is extremely biased towards women.

I hope you know that I take great care to not be biased toward any group. If i say that a lot of dentists i encounter, like car mechanics, try to rip people off. Does it mean I am biased against dentists? Help me out and list the specific lines which are extremely biased toward women. So I can clarify them. And if I find that I said something biased, I will be happy to apologize for it

> I will tell you this men are not so perfect either,

I agree, I never said men are perfect. I began the article by saying that too.

> so maybe you need to put on different glasses to look at men.

The breakdown of communication happens when both people say this. The person in power, the woman, is more likely to not want to put on different glasses, and this is what I`m asking her to do

>Divorce is a terrible reality,

A ``terrible reality``, I don`t understand what that means. I don`t define divorce in that way, though there are many complexities in it

> it simply means two people cannot live together for whatever reasons.

I disagree. It simply doesn`t mean that. And it isn`t for ``whatever`` unknown reasons.

How do I define divorce... It is like throwing your children in front of a school bus.
As the purpose of marriage is mostly about children, the effects of divorce are mostly on the children.
The children prefer that both parents died, instead of them getting divorced.

We can come up with lots of cases of successful, well adjusted, high achievers who are the children of divorce. Yet it is said:
It takes a whole village to raise a child.
Does the new woman think she is so powerful that she can do the whole job alone?

So an important question I ask women is:
What do you need a husband for?

> You are an educated man and I am sure you know that we cannot blame just one person for it. We have to look at all angles and then determine.

In psychology, an important idea is the difference between:
Responsibility versus Blame

As a common disease among us daysees is an un-examined life, hum apnay giraybaan may naheen jhaanktay.

As they say in twelve-step programs like AA:
Remember when you are pointing ONE finger at someone, THREE are pointing at yourself. (If we look at our hand, pointing).
Meaning, instead of blame, reframe

Instead of blaming the other person, take responsibility of your own actions.

As you said, to become educated, I have spent a dozen years studying this area of life. So I`ve tried very hard to keep my side of the street clean, to learn as much as I can, to do my best in my role toward a woman.

Women have learned a lot, in other areas. Because she is the main figure, the most inflential member of a family, if she does not learn about how to have good a relationship with her husband, the disintegration of the family will continue.

>Life happens in varying shades of gray and is not just black and white.

For me ``Life happens`` is not empowering, instead I believe:

Haalaat Kay Qadmo`n May Qalandar Naheen Girta
Tootay Bhee Jo Tara To Zameen Par Naheen Girta
Girtay Hain BaRRay Showk Say Samandar May Darya
Laykin Kisee Darya May Samandar Naheen Girta

The human is more powerful than his circumstances:
``Jahaan Hay Tayray Liyay
Tu Naheen Jahaan Kay Liyay``
- Iqbal

Now about life being grey, that`s a female point of view. Which is fine because men and women are different. For men, life is black and white, because we are simple creatures. Another reason why women being more complex, are superior to men.

This is why men play games which have black and white rules. In teams and groups, boys (like boy scouts) and men, always need a ``Code of Honor`` to operate, otherwise we kill each other, if we think in grey.

Men and women are ying and yang, blending into each other, yet each part of the ying yang symbol is clearly identifiable.

An important question I ask is:
As a woman increases her education and income,
Does she decrease her responsibilites toward the relationship with a husband?

Re: # 17

Wow!

Thank you for giving us a personal example, from the same household. I agree with everything you`re saying.

Only one thing, I don`t use the word ``subservient``.

Women are the managers of relationships, because as childbirth, they are genetically geared toward relationships, and have been also socially so, for thousands of years.

I also believe women are superior to men in almost every way.

I don`t have anything against working women, or independent, liberated, westernized women. I just ask this question, feminism succeeded in getting lots of rights, and giving lots of power to women, but did it teach women how to have good relationships with men?

Re: # 16

The influence of parents is huge among daysees, specially the mother. Just like Caucasian americans can pass on their bigotry to the future generations, similarly, our parents pass on their biases, which can take time to overcome, but first we have to acknowledge that we have a problem, for example a over-emphasis on fair skin. Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots. So that we end up behaving like we were born yesterday, when disconnected from history

Re: # 14

Yes, you make excellent points, about the role of parents.

Also, as you said, if the person today was looking in the mainstream, they may find more folks, compared to a muslim in america looking specifically for a muslim spouse, which is a very small group set to fill the requirements

Re: # 11

I`m not hear to condemn anyone. If we look at the statement in a broader context, we can examine the symptoms of the patient. If the patient keeps eating junk food, and pretends he eats good food, then it explains why he`s not healthy today. Hopefully tomorrow he`ll feel better

Re: # 10

I guess the joke`s on future generations?

Re: # 9

Most of my activist friends drink and can still have good conversations, specially in the day time. Getting a date is not a problem, it`s easy, as you said, in a bar, on dating websites, etc.

Depends on what one is looking for. I`m not looking for a date, which is a short-term type relationship. Marriage is a long-term type relationship

As for definitions... Even Iqbal says that even a person who calls himself `muslim` could have behavior which could be identified as `kafir`.

The definitions apply to all humans; muslims and non-muslims alike

Re: # 7

There is a lot of confusion around. And a lot of folks don`t know what they want, except more money and more imitation of what`s on TV. What I want is better relationships near and far

Re: # 5

I have frequently had conversations with people who were high on marijuana or alchol. The next day, the meaninglessness of the conversation is evident.

As for religion, depends on how one defines himself. Based on how you identify yourself, you try to find a compatible partner. For example two people who enjoy drinking, might get along well and have a great time together

Re: # 3

There are millions of fish in the sea

Re: # 2

Dude from Canada,

One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``. You make some assumptions that I am against conservative Muslims. I am talking about muslims and non-muslims alike, we can all be mushrik, munafiq, momin, kafir, mohsin, etc.

If you`d like solutions, you could visit my website. I`m all about solutions. The main solution is pre-marital training as some Catholics do

To keep the discussion on track:

There are a lot of QUESTIONS raised in the article. It would be productive if readers respond to those specific questions also. A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?

Re: # 1

If marriage is to be extracted from religion. Then how is it defined? What principles should be followed which would make a marriage work?

Reply to #45 by Raw_Dust on June 29, 2005 5:29pm PT
Mut`ah is a seperate issue we are talking about the rate of falling marriages. The reason I think is that the current generation women are more independant than the previous one`s and they fail to understand the power of compromise. I don`t want to sound like a sexist but this applies to both sexes. We fail to compromise on petty issues and these petty issues result in the break up. This new found liberty and independence of women tends to induce this sense that they can live witout a man and can raise a family I personally admire this thing but rationally thinking this is where the downfall starts. You cant me mother and father at the same time. It took Americans a generation to understand the real meaning of liberty and independence. The hollow promises of liberty of Hyppie era could not last even a decade and they had to turn to their past to seek solace. We desis are passing through that same metamorphisis state we are blindly accepting the norms ofwest without realising the facts that these might not the useful to us in the future. We dont learn from other`s experiences and we will never learn becuase the intelligentsia among us does not have the moral courage to challange the change with valid reasons. Those stupid people that think they will find their IDEAL partner live in fool`s paradise. Their is nothing IDEAL in the real world unless you fake it and marriages dont last long on fake promises. As far as the issue of shadi.com or shodionline is concerned no one takes them seriously. Marriage is a serious issue which you cant resolve on message boards and instant messengers.

ATISHRAJ
atishraj@hotmail.com

How on earth is America a female-dominated society?

[We have no time to read relationship books. We even lack the inclination to listen to the other person to get to know them. Rather we want to control them with our subjective conditions and terms, expecting them to obey. We exhibit the attitude of a closed minded person, instead of having a student’s perspective.]

That`s a valuable observation:`` Student`s Perspective``. I think there is a point and time for everything. I do agree with you that ``listening`` is a critical component here. Sometimes, it`s fine to be the student provided the other person is wearing the same lens. On other occasions, you have to read the person very quickly to be on the same wavelength. At times, this student approach can go against you. You may have a goof with you who does not understand your method to this madness.

I think it is necessary not only to read books on relationship but also apply the lessons learned from the books. You can read anything and everything on this planet but if you cannot implement what you read then it`s a waste of time.

Fazeel,

[I am an ordinary man trying to live an extraordinary life as my teachers told me to do. ]

and

[Men are wondering, how do they need to adapt with the new versions of Muslim women. Are we expected to live as domesticated pets, in a life of servitude?]

The above were million dollar points. The writer clearly admits the process of introspection he is going through. The fact that he is entertaining the idea of being a ``domesticated pet living a life of servitude`` must be applauded. It`s not that he has made the decision to lean in that direction but he is ``considering`` the idea by cross examining it. Wow! Chowk should feel real proud to host this article where the male writer is so forthright about his future possibilities.

If you are ever in or around NY City or NJ, I would definitely like to meet up and be further enlightened.

Z

What about Muslims and Muslimahs who would like to have Allah-sanctioned & Mohammad-illustrated Sex but with the same sex as theirs? Or do they have to fear Hazrat Ali sanctioned burning here and in the hereafter? hmm.. hmm?

Zehra: you say ``i am sure islam is cool with it``. hey, Muta`ah is there, some ``progressive`` Sunnis need to bring this tradition into the Sunnism :-) now that would be really cool ! Fazeel Sahib is there any room for Ijmaa or Qiyaas on the legitimacy of Muta`ah. ?

Naqshbandi,

In general, `crisis` is an overstatement...

Imam Hamza Yusuf zindabad!

Second generation Muslims living in the West (especially those who are not ethnically from the host country) are in a crisis--spiritual, emotional and psychological; marriage problems are just one manifestation of this.

grunge,

I just could not resist responding to your post #17...

``my preferences for a wife are in complete unison with my mother`s preferences for a daughter-in-law -- a modest damsel who believes in playing the predetermined traditional role of a wife in accordance with islam, i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, raise and take care of the kids. ``

Your mothers preference doesn`t surprise me, it`s yours that was the shocker! To my mother-in-laws dismay, she didn`t get to pick me...Although my husband, held opinions very similar to yours, till we met of course, it wasn`t after we got married that he realized what he would`ve have missed, if he had married the so called (and personally non-existant) ``ideal wife``
It seems like your not looking for a wife, but rather someone who can tend to your house and kids. What education has given us, as women is the realization that marriage is a partnership. My husband is in no way my superior, but rather my partner, who I have immense love and respect for, as he does for me.

your next statement, ``I have absolutely nothing against women being on equal footing or more with men on everything, but i firmly believe that women have a far more gruelling and important task at hand, i.e., to raise the kids``.

I don`t have kids as yet, but can safely say that the gruelling task really is the giving birth part. As far as raising kids is concerned, again it`s a partnership. Your child needs a father as much as as he/she needs a mother. I won`t deny that a mother is more than likely to get more involved, but it can do no harm for a father to be just as involved. I can safely say that your child will grow up with the values you own, and more than likely be a secure individual. I was blessed with parents who believed in this priniciple, and I felt no distinction in treatment when it came to me and my brother. Most importantly we saw a good marriage, where my father treated my mother with equal respect, and although my mother was highly educated, she chose to stay home when she had kids (somethin that was not enforced by my father).
I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an arranged marriage, but rather your technique. If your trying to shop for a wife, you might find a servant, but not a partner to spend the rest of your life with...I don`t mean to sound harsh, but rather am stating reality.

The brilliance of this essay has left me simply speechless.
How the author arrived at such a magnificent piece of literary prose is an enigma to me!

Bravo!!!!

Such coherence in ideas, what flow, what continuity.

Such creativity used in the placement of an invisible thesis statement.

From Women to Men, Iqbal to Jawab Shikwa, Momin to Munafiq, marriage to divorce! WAh wah
How wonderfully the polarities are represented!!

The Editors at Chowk should be applauded for helping put such fine pieces for our reading pleasure. Bravo, Editors! You guys are just fabulous!!!

kamath.

The problem is that reliance on servants creates the illusion of a poor work ethic and being spoiled. Not that they don`t cook or clean...or are doing something else with their time instead...

---

Zerha,


``...its really sad that ur egos cant handle more but we have again, only ur mothers, women, to blame for that.``

I don`t know if it`s ego exactly...more like fear. I wouldn`t want to marry a traditional woman for probably the same reason grunge doesn`t want to marry a ``modern`` woman...just wouldn`t know how to interact with them.

Fazeel - i think everyone`s pretty much said what I thought when I read the article i.e. i dont know if this is meant to be funny or if its badly expressed dogma. anyway, i found this entertaining although i didnt understand what the second part of the article [culled, apparently, from the posts of several chowkie interactors] had to do with muslim marriage in the US. So i`m looking forward to your post now.

cheers!

Fazeel:

ok, as i promised i have begun reading this:

Muslims in America are delaying getting married because of a prevalence of role confusion and immaturity.

i just clicked on your intro which informs me: `` Fazeel Azeez Chauhan is an Activist and Poet. He has written extensively on issues related to Pakistani immigrants in America and has been published in Pakistan Link. Studying the Anthropologists in in Los Angeles for twenty years.....hmmmm....digression time: anthropology: anthropology, classification and analysis of humans and their society, descriptively, culturally, historically, and physically. Its unique contribution to studying the bonds of human social relations has been the distinctive concept of culture. It has also differed from other sciences concerned with human social behavior (especially sociology) in its emphasis on data from nonliterate peoples and archaeological exploration.(from net) end digression...

so my query to you would be to cite your sources for this delay in getting married...we need to establish this delay beyond reasonable doubt before we jump to relate it to the prevalence of anything...let alone role confusion...now this you need to establish also...as a good scholar...and while at it you have to establish the same (prevalence) of immaturity...this latter is very important...

...you have to be more explicit in elucidating whose `immaturity` you have in mind...we the readers have a charter of rights too. you know....and this is so loaded and ambiguous this first sentence violates clauses 3, 7, 9 and 13 of the charter of reader`s rights...

...who is immature....Muslim, America as in the USA?...are the muslims confused about the institution of marriage itself? do they think it is out-dated?...or are they confused of who should wear the pants in the new family envisaged?...or is confusion on the prevalence of necessity?...under the laws of necessity drastic and irreparable damage has been done to the national psyche (i cite the late justice munir)...these measures have been the last nail in the enigmatic conundrum facilitating foggy musings on a humid warm day in the aftermath of a lovely barbecue dissertation on the need and victory of rationality over regression in the much touted victory of prevailing winds of change over static back-to-womb charges essayed by the dormancy advocating hirsute...you sir are either a genius or baffling poor me...i need a drink...it is very warm and humid and i am still on the first sentence...

will someone not encourage me to stop.....no i think i have expressed a contrarian desire...will somebody ask me to stop?

rgds

t

ps: just FYI am not a muslimah...but have beed told am high maintenance;)

Re: # 36
Sorry I should have said ,`` this claim is NOT supported by CAIR..`` - one finger typing!!