Muslims Not Married in America

Re: # 36

: o )
Interesting.
It was at a CAIR seminar in Los Angeles a couple of years ago, that one of the panelists discussing marriage, said that the divorce rate among American Muslims is estimated at 35%

Other than that, yea, people say life and death is in the hand of God, and matches are made in heaven... I know not.

Re: # 37

* I don`t know CAIR`s official statistics. But one of the speakers at a CAIR conference in Long Beach (Los Angeles) a couple of years ago, did make this claim that among Muslims in America, the divorce rate is estimated at 35%

* You may want to look around, and also check with your local masjid. I know in Los Angeles, #35% seems real. In smaller towns it may be less.

* An old statistic about the overall American population is:
If 100 people get married today, then three years later, only 50 will be left married. Out of those 50 still married, only 25 will remain married seven years after the wedding.

* Meaning the overall divorce rate in America is 50% after 3 years. And 75% after 7 years. So the subset, the Muslims are doing better. But my personal concern is that since we are more confused because of mixing eastern confusion with western confusion, I wouldn`t be surprised that the 35% will increase. Specially because within our group, people are less likely to seek therapy or training, because of the common notion of ``I know it all``, even while suffering.

* I`m asking a lot of questions. But am not trying to put down my own people, daysi, or Muslim, in preference for other groups. I`m just trying to shed some light in some dusty cobwebbed corners so that we can make improvements

Re: # 36

Seems like this statistic scares you and that`s why you are in denial about it?

Re: # 38

> ps: just FYI am not a muslimah...but have beed told am high maintenance;)

* Translation: No matter what my qualifications are, the faulty part of the engine will be refused ``maintenance`` because what you demand does not exist.


> i just clicked on your intro which informs me: `` Fazeel Azeez Chauhan is an Activist and Poet. He has written extensively on issues related to Pakistani immigrants in America and has been published in Pakistan Link. Studying the Anthropologists in in Los Angeles for twenty years.....

* I`m glad you`re reading

> hmmmm....digression time: anthropology: anthropology, classification and analysis of humans and their society, descriptively, culturally, historically, and physically. Its unique contribution to studying the bonds of human social relations has been the distinctive concept of culture. It has also differed from other sciences concerned with human social behavior (especially sociology) in its emphasis on data from nonliterate peoples and archaeological exploration.(from net) end digression...

* You may be reading. But not understanding the meaning.
Anthropology has generally been something created by our western friends, to study the ``dirty natives`` like me. It has generally been the study by Caucasians, about ``the other``, the non-whites usually. It is a labeling and defining of a people (like mine) by somebody who`s looking from the outside, usually making judgements. See the old issues of National Geographic. Or read my poem called ``Invisible Frontears``.

* The point is, who`s studying the anthropoloGISTS.

* Who`s studying the historians?

> so my query to you would be to cite your sources for this delay in getting married...we need to establish this delay beyond reasonable doubt

* Please read the new book by your fellow ``woman``:

Marriage, a History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage

* I heard her on an interview where she said in Europe, it is pretty obvious that people are avoiding marriage.

* So even if it`s only a delay in the U.S.... look around

> ...and while at it you have to establish the same (prevalence) of immaturity...this latter is very important...

* You raise a very crucial point here... IMMATURITY, perhaps a word which encompasses ALL problems.

* Please read the book ``Iron John`` by Robert Bly

* in the recent past, in all cultures, boys were initiated into manhood. The ``Rites of Passage`` were a series of training by the wise elders of a tribe, and they would hand down all the wisdom of previous generations, to the boy, so that he knows all he needs to become a successful man. The emphasis was on overall character, not on money making. And this was how mature old men, instilled maturity in younger men. And that is a main reason why maturity is missing.

* And also because people may go to 4 or 10 years of university. But never take a single class about personal development nor about relationships. Often folks go to college to become money making machines.

> ...you have to be more explicit in elucidating whose `immaturity` you have in mind...we the readers have a charter of rights too. you know....and this is so loaded and ambiguous this first sentence violates clauses 3, 7, 9 and 13 of the charter of reader`s rights...

* what about men`s rights?
: o )

> ...who is immature....Muslim, America as in the USA?

* Those are deep questions, no?

> ...are the muslims confused about the institution of marriage itself? do they think it is out-dated?...or are they confused of who should wear the pants in the new family envisaged?...or is confusion on the prevalence of necessity?

* More good questions, the article`s working. So I`d sure want to hear any positive contribution to a discussion by you answering these important questions.

> ...under the laws of necessity drastic and irreparable damage has been done to the national psyche (i cite the late justice munir)...these measures have been the last nail in the enigmatic conundrum facilitating foggy musings on a humid warm day in the aftermath of a lovely barbecue dissertation on the need and victory of rationality over regression in the much touted victory of prevailing winds of change over static back-to-womb charges essayed by the dormancy advocating hirsute...

* well put
: o )

> you sir are either a genius or baffling poor me...

* I`m not trying to baffle anyone, for sure

> i need a drink...it is very warm and humid and i am still on the first sentence...
oh no, this was only the first sentence?!
lol

Re: # 39

> I thought when I read the article i.e. i dont know if this is meant to be funny or if its badly expressed dogma

* Sure there is some humor in it. There is no dogma in it. But a lot of reasoning, observations, experience, and most of all concerns about relationships and children of divorce.

> anyway, i found this entertaining although i didnt understand what the second part of the article [culled, apparently, from the posts of several chowkie interactors] had to do with muslim marriage in the US. So i`m looking forward to your post now.

* Help me out. I don`t know which is the second part. Perhaps point me to a line or idea, and ask me how it`s related to marriage. I`d be happy to post a reply.

* P.S. I didn`t understand what you said in the brackets [culled ... ]. If you mean did I use quotes from the posts of chowkie interactors, no... my info and sources were all from outside of chowk interactors.

Re: # 41
> by ShoreSahib on June 29, 2005 12:17pm PT

* Payan you are extremely kind.
: o )
Thanks a lot.
So I guess there is hope?

* ShoreSahib, thanks really, cause you so having so much knowledge, your comments mean a lot.

* Wishing you the best in your work also, Fazeel Chauhan

Re: # 42
> by mussarat on June 29, 2005 12:33pm PT
> grunge,

> Your mothers preference doesn`t surprise me, it`s yours that was the shocker! To my mother-in-laws dismay, she didn`t get to pick me...Although my husband, held opinions very similar to yours, till we met of course, it wasn`t after we got married that he realized what he would`ve have missed, if he had married the so called (and personally non-existant) ``ideal wife``

* Any man dare say that the probability of finding the ``ideal husband`` is better than finding the ``ideal wife``?

* If both are non-existent, what role models are we striving toward?
* Or is each person re-inventing the wheel?

> It seems like your not looking for a wife, but rather someone who can tend to your house and kids

* Sure, some men may be looking for a maid. And these days, the ``opportunity cost`` is far less expensive if a man chooses to stay single and hires a maid for household chores, eats out instead of hiring a cook. Is this what women are competing with? The male version of the maid, which career women may be looking for, is the domesticated pet, as mentioned at the beginning of the article.

* The topic of kids is the most important. Perhaps people just want to ``tend to the kids``, and that`s why they grow up to be... part of the powerless masses?

* See a maid can clean house. But a baby sitter is no substitute for his children`s real mom. This is the main problem that men face today.

> What education has given us, as women is the realization that marriage is a partnership. My husband is in no way my superior, but rather my partner, who I have immense love and respect for, as he does for me.

* true partnership is the ``ideal``
: o )

> I don`t have kids as yet, but can safely say that the gruelling task really is the giving birth part. As far as raising kids is concerned, again it`s a partnership. Your child needs a father as much as as he/she needs a mother. I won`t deny that a mother is more than likely to get more involved, but it can do no harm for a father to be just as involved. I can safely say that your child will grow up with the values you own, and more than likely be a secure individual. I was blessed with parents who believed in this priniciple, and I felt no distinction in treatment when it came to me and my brother. Most importantly we saw a good marriage, where my father treated my mother with equal respect, and although my mother was highly educated, she chose to stay home when she had kids (somethin that was not enforced by my father).

* You sound like a good woman, who`s mature and understands her role

> ...I don`t mean to sound harsh, but rather am stating reality.

* can I use the same line to reply to my critics?
: o )

Re: General

* What is the purpose of an InterAct:
(1) In the writings classes, people provided feedback to the writer. The purpose was to assist each other in the development of better writing skills. The method was positive. This process is called to critique, which is different from plain criticism designed to make the writer wrong at any expense
(2) I am happy to respond to any specific questions, if it`s phrased in a way which would be educational for other readers also
(3) If some posts a personal attack. That`s off track. Don`t be a hater
(4) A civil and respectful dialogue can be mutually beneficial, if that goal is kept in mind in the course of the conversation... asking ``Where are we going with this``
(5) I can`t waste my time in trying to change the mind of stubborn person
(6) I don`t get any benefit from making you wrong, nor from ego centered arguments
(7) Let`s have positive interaction which results in a win / win situation

Re: # 1 Will you marry an atheist? Think again before talkin crap.........dont mean to come hard on you but sometimes its better if you pay attention

> re: #1 by shehryar on June 30, 2005 12:20pm PT
* (an interact by shehryar posted under my bio)

> Fazeel, I think you have made some good observations in your article. Unfortunately, it is not in the interest of of the recently ``empowered`` women to admit to their great expectations of men. The bottomline is that whoever has power is abusing it, whether man or woman. Just like a child with a gun; who has the means to detruction but lacks maturity and discipline to restraint.

* I definitely agree with you. And hope the article conveyed this also from a constructive point of view?

> You might like to check this website http://www.savethemales.ca/000180.html

* Thanks.
* I took a quick look, and wasn`t sure about the purpose of the website. Wish Makow had put something like a mission statement. Yet, I saw some articles related to feminism, which tends to validate my observations so far, that most of the feminist pioneers are lesbian, and thus why would they teach women how to have good relationships with men?

*often the message has been to women ``become a man``. As I said before, I believe women are superior to men. If women are told to behave in a masculine manner and men are told to become feminized, then such encouragement toward both to become androgenous would sure be evidence pushing homosexuality, and away from heterosexuality. Sounds also like the melting pot idea, to put both genders in a juicer, or a meat grinder, and come out the other end with something ``homogenous``.

* Just like the Canadian policy of the ``Salad Bowl`` approach versus the American idea of ``melting down`` everyone, I prefer that people from various cultures and genders can maintain their identities and bring their best to contribute to the salad bowl community

> And now a little something for you to think about: You have implied that women are no longer sincere, but rather self-centered and materialistic.

* What I mean is, this is the general trend to be self-centered. As is common in many pop songs that talk about ``me, myself and I``. Or the old trend of N.I.M.B.Y. ... if the event happening is Not In My Back Yard, then I don`t care.

* Or the bumper sticker seen in southern california:
``There is no life east of Pacific Coast Highway``

> Actually, my perception is that men in general do NOT appreciate sincere women. What they appreciate and admire is physical beauty above all. And then wealth, influence, etc. Its a two-way street my dear. Sherry

* There is truth to what you`re saying, that there are such men out there, but your and my friends ain`t among them, right? Physical beauty is desirable for most men, and sincerity is essential to make a marriage last. A WOMAN`S wealth and influence cannot make a marriage last. It is part of masculinity to be a productive member of society and make your own money. Only in rare cases are men living off of women`s wealth and influence.

* sure, in general, it is a two way street. But not in the sense that you mentioned. For me it`s a two-way street meaning both people need to make the effort, and develop the character, and give the devotion toward the partner. Taking advantage of the partner or taking them for granted, is simply just using him, if not abusing him (or her)

General Comment about ``bias``...
If someone says:
she has buck teeth because Condoleeza Rice lies through her teeth

then is this a biased statement against women?

I greatly respect women like the writers and activists Arundhati Roy and

Laura Flanders who is the Author of ``Bush Women``, a book which talks about the estrogen shield, and how the ``images of women in charge`` are used by politicians to distract the world from the real issues

Are you Salim Chauhan`s brother?

I haven`t read such and upsetting and overtly sexist article in a very long time. Excuse me?? How does one react to the new muslim woman? First of all, a professional woman myself, I have never met a muslim woman who believes she does `not need a man`. To the contrary, women in their mid-twenties to thirties after having achieved their academic and professional goals have been desparate to get married, only to find that most Desi men of their caliber are either more interested in whites/filipinos/and latinas or believe they have plenty of time to cruise the marriage market. American raised men are just as piggish as the Pakistani ones, I doubt many of them are assuming servile positions to their wives. The author seems to think that a woman who is earning money and keeping a household has no right to ask her husband to help around the house. Also, I take grave offense to the accusation that sex, alcohol, and racism are American values. Im sorry, I have not known a people more racist than Pakistanis themselves, and if Americans were so racist, I dont think our author friend would even be here. Muslim women in America have no new ``power``. To the contrary, our parents thought our education would be a lasting hope, but really, feminism has earned the Muslim woman an additional burden of providing income, keeping a household, and hearing sexist accusations like those of this author. How is the American Muslim woman to cope with the new muslim man?

An evolved response for a revolutionary:Mirror to Mirror
by. A.A.Long

Mirror me Mirror you
Mirroring what is true
Mirror me Mirror you
The Ugly inside
comes surface too

Your mirror`s silver comes to tarnish
Mirroring Dark pained halls
of the school of life

Mirror me Mirror you
Mirroring and adieu

as I shimmer and reflect the image of your
so called true self
you return to my sight
a chimera visage
of that which is draped in beauty and fine handsomeness
yet quenched and drenched in dark light-
a haze which drowns sight
of who we think we are
and who i think you might be
the silver lined silicone fusion
shows illusion
sending senses allusions of confusion
and creating alliterated expletive hatred.
How can through such unclear shadows
can you truly see?
How can you quote scripture through such mists of the mind.
and of not the divine
Holy thou art NOT
but made as a man
as I made a woman be.
flawed confused conflicted
living on earthly seas
Judge not so harshly your chimera
for she reflects you as you reflect her.
For this evolution of muslimah
the evolution of muslim sons
Leaping to live in the Land of opportunity land of
scurrying and hurrying to and fro
9 to 5 ing , trying to avoid welfare crimes
and the brine of spousal emotional repudiation
with a facade of decoration,education, planned married situations
52- 40 plus hour work weeks and token vacation
sick days to take whose usage of is not ok
but babies you make make babies to burp and slurp,
and if not careful matey left in the 2 income latchkey lurches.
Or the dishonorable Talaq paradise.
Fathers make daughters. Are they not too muslim sons?
Encouraging and cajoling daughters to learn, earn and extol as Sorors in the Titulating Titloscracy Elite for sake of family Name, Titled in the educated finery of RN. AS.BS.JD MD OT PA PHD RN to increase her beauty and worth for higher,more luxurious, Rodeo Drive Mehr Tolls.and wedding Gold.
Quoting facts and Quoting fiction
but with all this quoting do you state the true picture?
reality bites
reality sucks
it hurts when it hurts
and mostly its too much
When he said,she said then we all say togethermostly the same thing.
But keep in mind
keep as foreward dictum: As the lock closes more doors become ajar waiting for you to step through and give it a look with new eyes. your heart cleansed by forge and made new.
Lament no more my brother, as the state of this Ummah changes day to day and person to person.

Pay it forward and one day you will see on the long path of dunya

Mirror to mirror and that mirror is me.

``America is a female-dominated society as Pakistan is a male-dominated society.``

I`ll agree that Pakistan is a male-dominated society...so women learn to stay on the sidelines from day-one.

America is not female-dominated. Females do not have this inate need to dominate. They just want to feel equal and accepted. They feel this is their right. (I`m not saying all females are angels)

Males, on the otherhand, are the same everywhere. They have an inate need to dominate their women.

The difference in American vs Pakistani women is, the American women don`t have any experience with dominating men all around them as they do in Pakistan starting from the family unit, so you can`t blame the women for their ignorance on how to deal with their controlling men.

The women in America know the truth about how men are, that they want submission, and it`s so depressing that no one wants to get married anymore.

``As women enter the corporate world, and experience the economic power and independence, they may feel like they don’t need a man.``

That`s not true..everyone is wishing for true love.

``Yet that aside, it is true that in Pakistan the wife has to serve the man. In America, the husband is told to serve the wife.``

I agree in PK women serve the man, and they see nothing wrong with that. In America, the wives have an expectation to be treated well in return (though I have seen some very mean and controlling women in America). But when the women see that they might not be treated well, and they might not ever be appreciated or accepted for who they are besides a housewife, they think why get married.

Basically this is a real issue, and it is really scary. I want the youth to want to get married. But how can we convince them when it seems so unfulfilling?

At the same time, the negativity in articles like yours, and from ``aunties`` in the community blaming all the divorces on the girls, makes them feel even worse about the idea, and worse about themselves...without them ever really understanding the root problem -- that men are men...they have to dominate...and how to really be ok with that and adjust yourself to that.