Muslims Not Married in America

Hush says:
Religion should not be involved in marriage at all. Hard to digest?? Then go to hell!

Hush re-asserts: ``you guys cannot even shit without bringing islam into it. Damn you!``

Let me nip this in the bud.

This article is ridiculously over simplistic, patronizingly sermonizing and places disproportionate burden of maintaining the family on women.

Given the interaction style of many chowkies, I wouldn`t be surprised if the author is a munafiq (in the true sense of the word) trying to mock conservative Muslims living in the West... or to simply get a rise out of the usual suspects here. His mission will be accomplished, no doubt.

When it is said to them: ``Make not mischief on the earth,`` they say: ``Why, we only Want to make peace!`` Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not. (Quran 2:11-12)

Does the author realize the mischief he is engaging in?

But having said that, I must concur that arrogance and self-centeredness on the part of men or women plays a HUGE role in the increase in divorce among second generation-ers of any ethnicity.

What to do? The author has only provided us with his own brand of arrogance...not much in the way of a solution now, is it?

....okay...I think I get it now...author is actively looking but keeps getting rejected by our attractive and sophisticated American sistahs...certainly there are better ways to deal with rejection...

Re: # 3
I agree :D

But brother..you shouldn`t make fun of your Brother fazeel. Allahhh will not be happy with you ;)

Jazakallah-khairun (or whatever ..)

I agree with ``hush``.I`m in Chennai on an office trip and i meet up with a kashmiri muslim friend living in chennai.Somehow the topic of astrology comes up.My friend gives me a tirade about how palm reading is forbidden in islam and he has consulted astrologers and is apparently quite well versed in it.Yet he quoted some scripture about fate and all that bulshit.I could only take so much of his tirade and asked him why bring Allah and islam into astrology and if he`s into it, just enjoy delving into the science and keep your religion out of it.Luckily we had plenty of booze to go around, so there was no dearth of topics to discuss and thankfully he didn`t go into a tirade about boozing and islam.This happens every time i meet him and the first time i met him was in his brother`s house in Pennsylvania.Interestingly, he is from kashmir, lives down south in Chennai, wouldn`t live anywhere else acc. to him , and is staunchly indian.To our pak friends, not all kashmiris think alike, it seems.There is a big group of kashmiri muslims who consider themselves indian.

hush,

Ahhh...and you must be the usual suspect.

_Digit:

Abey I sympathize with this dude. I also had my share of tough times on Shaadi.com...The goddamned ABCD women are all looking for ``serendipity``...and the next chick who tells me that I will send her to fricking Sri Lanka..LOL!!

stuka,

``Serendipity``...for real? LOL :-)

Some of our posters have hard time finding a date so they hang out at Shaadi.com( See posts below)
I mean have they closed nearby bars that you can’t hang out there and pick up a date? For those in DC, try the Georgetown mall. There is a great pick joint right there on the second floor and great margarita on top of that. Then again in Georgetown, there is Safeway, known as “social Safeway” another great pick up place.

Here are some definitions in this article that caught my eyes. I know some Indian would be in knots after reading the definition for Kafir….

“(1) Momin: Those who are the same outside as inside and follow a righteous path in life
(2) Kafir: They are the same inside and out, but don`t believe in living an honorable life, for example, based on the teachings of Islam. Good point is at least you know what you`re getting.
(3) Munafiq: They are different on the inside, from what they appear on the outside. Their major trait is lying. In the psychology of self-deception, they often believe they are good.”

I know Stuka does not believe in living an honorable life :)

fazeel:

i have not read you article...justthe heading...Muslims Not Married in America... and am wondering

is there a hidden joke somewhere?

rgds

t

`` Most people who identify themselves as Muslim are actually Munafiq. ``

Are we going to condemn these poor souls

Mr. Hush in #1, you said: ``Hush re-asserts: ``you guys cannot even shit without bringing islam into it. Damn you!`` ``

Now tell me, don`t you bring God into it yourself? , i.e. ``God! that felt good!`` :)

Re: # 12
Haha.
Even if I did, I wish you were mature enough to differentiate between Islam and God :P

i hail from a respectable muslim family, and i can tell you firsthand what a double standard our parents play in bringing up desi (especially muslim)* kids in the west. The men are babied by the mothers with the expectation that when they are married, they too can expect similar service from their wives; while the daughters are brought up like any other all-american girl. My father personally encouraged my sister to pursue her dreams and become an engineer, while my mother spoiled me rotten with all her love and care, cleaning up after me. Now, when it`s time for both me and my sister to get married, we are finding it difficult to find the right matches. I am looking for the so-called utopian subservient girl (like my mother), and my sister is looking for the utopian sensitive muslim man who will respect her career and help with the household chores. It`s a snafu.

* i know this happens in all south asian cultures, but i emphasized muslim people, because i think muslims are less likely to marry non-muslims than others. No premediated intention to insult anyone on this forum.

peace

i hail from a respectable muslim family, and i can tell you firsthand what a double standard our parents play in bringing up desi (especially muslim)* kids in the west. The men are babied by the mothers with the expectation that when they are married, they too can expect similar service from their wives; while the daughters are brought up like any other all-american girl. My father personally encouraged my sister to pursue her dreams and become an engineer, while my mother spoiled me rotten with all her love and care, cleaning up after me. Now, when it`s time for both me and my sister to get married, we are finding it difficult to find the right matches. I am looking for the so-called utopian subservient girl (like my mother), and my sister is looking for the utopian sensitive muslim man who will respect her career and help with the household chores. It`s a snafu.

* i know this happens in all south asian cultures, but i emphasized muslim people, because i think muslims are less likely to marry non-muslims than others. No premediated intention to insult anyone on this forum.

peace

grunge,

Parents, from what I observe, play a key role in the dissolution of marriages. I hate to say it, but often the culprits are the mothers.

``I am looking for the so-called utopian subservient girl (like my mother), ``

You`re looking or your mom is looking? It`s one thing to know what you yourself want...things get hard when your parents disagree.

Personally, I`m looking for a working professional Muslim. My mother wants someone who`s a bit more `traditional`, whose ancestry is from specific areas of India (my God I never knew she was so bigoted!), certain height, got to have fair skin, and so on. Too much :-)

my preferences for a wife are in complete unison with my mother`s preferences for a daughter-in-law -- a modest damsel who believes in playing the predetermined traditional role of a wife in accordance with islam, i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, raise and take care of the kids.

Has the idea of marrying one of these ``enlightened,`` open-minded, career-oriented muslimas ever crossed my mind? Yes. Well, my sister is a glaring example of one. But i have decided not to go down that route. Because i believe that Allah (SWT) has blessed the woman with something extraordinary-the gift of being a mother. I have absolutely nothing against women being on equal footing or more with men on everything, but i firmly believe that women have a far more gruelling and important task at hand, i.e., to raise the kids (sorry to admit boys, but Allah (SWT) trusts women more with this important task). If women are capable of juggling both /(work and family), then my hats off to them. Having observed in reality how haw hard it for the modern woman, I have decided to marry a traditional woman. The point of my earlier post was to draw attention to the fact that, in the process, its people like my sister who suffer. They are constrained by the parameters imposed on them (has to marry a muslim, educated, preferably who can communcate in english), while the guys, like myself, can go home and marry these traditional women who are available in abundance :)
I end with my sister`s qoute: ``no matter what society you live in, men always have it easy, even mummy loves you more than she loves me.``

Fazeel,
Welcome to chowk!

To create a happy, loving home both men and women have to work ``together``.

You can not put more blame on the woman than the man, it is an equal task or commitment. I agree women are becoming more educated and there is a lot of confusion as to what to expect and not to expect but it is not only on the part of women but men also.
Men are confused too , changing times, values , attitudes, economics make it difficult for both to adjust. A sensible couple is one which understands each other and is ready to respect each other and stick to each other through thick and thin.

I am sorry to say that but you have written an article which is extremely biased towards women. I will tell you this men are not so perfect either, so maybe you need to put on different glasses to look at men.

Divorce is a terrible reality, it simply means two people cannot live together for whatever reasons. You are an educated man and I am sure you know that we cannot blame just one person for it. We have to look at all angles and then determine.

Life happens in varying shades of gray and is not just black and white.

chauhan saheb:

This article is teeming with so many inaccuracies, stereotypes and blatant untruths about women that I don’t even know where to begin.

But to answer your question; “I’m just wondering what should we do as a solution instead of cutting each other down?”:

Well, after you’re done excoriating (read: cutting down) women, how about lending a hand to women who are managing a career, home, children, and unhelpful husbands. That may restore the faith of “high maintenance”, “trigger happy” women in desi men.

Sir, ever dared to envision a partnership between a husband and wife? You know, where instead of the wife being an unwavering vassal, the husband is not only cognizant but God forbid supportive of his partner’s needs (both personal and professional). Neither party lives in servitude. Imagine that.

I think if the author were truly serious about engaging readers in “a deeper study of relationship issues” he would not have made such benighted remarks about women, and as _digit says placed a “disproportionate burden of maintaining the family” on them. You have gone out of your way to unabashedly pander to the insecurities of desi men.

Fazeel Chauhan sahib:

…i hope you forgive me…i do…i mean i forgive you…and your aal…children and their children and their children…for suggesting such a teasing heading…i know..i mean i know!…no, i guess i do not know….but in this free world we can speculate...freely, no?...you must have considered all these titles like:

Single Muslim in America

and after mulling over this you must have discarded it…for it sounds like a comedy movie title… Christopher Columbus in Manhattan or Mirza Ghalib Bunder Road Per…good for you, sir…am in eclipsing agreement with you here…

then you must have considered

Sex and the Single Muslim(ah) and immediately slapped your wrist for even thning of keying in those horrible words, astaghfirullah…am in nodding agreement with you here also

then you must have considered

the Regeneration of Proper Ummah... and you must have sighed a sigh of pleasant relief…but on second thoughts you discarded it oo, because i suspect the ordinary temporals here would fail to understand what you were hinting at so broadly here...

then you must have considered

Unmarried Muslims In America and I suspect you must have immediately deleted this title…for this clearly side tracks the reader into entirely uncharted waters of single parenthood and naozobillah doing that ...and that too without that…astaghfirullah along with naoozobillah again!

so my dear fazeel chauhan, i am all praise for the heading you selected

jazakallah brother…

rgds

t

ps: my comments on the article itself will come later after i read it.

Re: # 20

Good One!

Fazeel,

Thank you for providing an entertaining article. The following passage was quite hilarious. I am impressed by your open heartedness and acceptance of the newly acquired identity. Hats off to you!

[As the Muslima’s become more high maintenance, the men are wondering what is the new definition of being a good enough man. The divorce rate among American Muslims has gone from 2% to 35% in one generation. Men are wondering, how do they need to adapt with the new versions of Muslim women. Are we expected to live as domesticated pets, in a life of servitude?]

This was the best passage in this entertainment :)

I will elaborate later.

grunge,

You`d be surprised at how many working women are family minded. As far as I`m concerned, the so-called ``modern`` arrangements are simply the new tradition. The burden of raising a family in this society is, I argue, best handled by someone who was raised here.

Working mothers was a necessity for low income immigrant families such as mine was, so I`ve seen it work all my life. Dual income families is, in many cases, necessary for many to be squarely in the middle class. I don`t anticipate things being easy, but then a large part of that is how well I step up to bat...

To be sure, by seeking a career woman, I`m simply seeking a like minded person...but in the end I would want one who, like myself, is willing to prioritize family above all else.

grunge,

``in accordance with islam, i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, raise and take care of the kids.``

Woa...I missed this. You`re convoluting 1950s gender roles with ``Islamic`` values. The domestic diva role is hardly ``Islamic`` per sae. Most Pakistani women in the middle class that my mother considered, for example, neither cooked nor cleaned. That was what servants were for.

This offended her rural Indian sensibilities, where one is to wake with sunrise and start working in/out of the house, and retire when the sun has completely set. No doubt people from different ethnic backgrounds and social strata will have a different take. Many well-off Gulf Arab women do NOT take care of their own children, for example.

All can be ``in accordance`` (or reconciled) with Islam...but no single setup can`t please everyone. This hang-up for a sole, unitary way of practicing Islam is a political one. It`s also dangerous.

The fact is, you have a particular tradition in mind…and there is no monolithic Islamic tradition in this regard. Not by a long shot.

The main beef I have with your article is that you could have dropped the “Muslim” word and pretty much still made many of the same points. What you describe is also (by and large) true of Indians, too and the divorce rate is quite high (I know of three cases personally). You also make whole bunch of sweeping statements in the most general way (e.g., “We exhibit the attitude of a closed minded person, instead of having a student’s perspective.”) The tone of the article is also extremely “whine-like”. (If you are trying to make it funny, you need to do more work!)

Notes:
[Usually women put a lot of emphasis on the desire to be entertained and complimented by men. Some even say “Lie to me, to make me happy”.]
Some?

[…women who are looking for a temporary fix: to combat boredom, curiosity, confusion.]
I guess READING just doesn’t give the same level of satisfaction. Perhaps they could try WRITING!

[…developing the illusion that she is the most valuable commodity in heaven and earth. ]
And just when I was getting used to thinking that MEN have that role.

[(2) Kafir: They are the same inside and out, but don’t believe in living an honorable life, for example, based on the teachings of Islam.]
I guess that would rule out all those HINDOOS as potential husband material – talk about narrowing down your own options! (Apne pairon per kulharee!)

[Perhaps the diagnosis could be all summed up into two words.]
Why didn’t you consider this advice while writing this article?

Muslim women in the west creep me out.They all resemble the `alam` woman .Creepy, devious and false.I don`t blame muslim men for putting off marriage or marrying elsewhere.

Re: # 20 haha...good one unkil T!
And do read it away, wud ya? We know it ain`t any use to you, since you are as way past that age as one could get, still it might help your `future` generation in the long run! :) beta jawan ho raha hai, go Amreeka meiN nahiN , per us ke paRos meiN tau hai! ;)

regards

Re: # 26 haha, i wonder how`d u describe a Muslim `man`!
peace :)

Re: # 17

Grunge,

I`d love to marry your sister!!

My god,

As a 27 year old unmarried Muslim American woman, let me say, ur article is scary. someone else interacted and said, she didnt know where to start.

my two cents on this one:
it is difficult to find a man. we also dont really feel like we need men to cook and clean up after UNLESS we loved them for who they are and they loved us for who we are, that includes us, our bodies, our eccentricities, complexities etc (that is normal for all humans). many muslim girls in the US get married since they are supposed to ( i am speaking only from a S. Asian perspective...there are plenty of other muslim communities in the US) and they realize that they were supposed to get married and all that was told to them aboutit was not what it was cracked up to be and excaping their own mothers is really not enough reason to get married into another prison.

It is a problem since as an interactor put it (grunge i think), there are plenty of traditional women to marry (and consequently divorce) who are fair skinned, obedient and sub servient. good for u muslim men if that is what u want out of your life partner...its really sad that ur egos cant handle more but we have again, only ur mothers, women, to blame for that.

i want babies, i like to cook and i have a life that is my own and i am willing to share it with someone who shares my values and thoughts on life. its rally not that much to ask. and why must we worry about getting married later? aint nothing wrong with that. im fine with being a single mom too, though im not sure how well that goes down in islam. not very well culturally for sure but im sure islam is cool with it.

two cents finish.
more later
z.rizvi.

``(2) Kafir: They are the same inside and out, but don`t believe in living an honorable life, for example, based on the teachings of Islam. Good point is at least you know what you`re getting. ``

Yeah, this is Stuka. Lucky Stuka. Hamza Yousaf is a bigot.

This article is so misguided and notion ridden that it reads like camp...thanks for some real satire chowk staff!

These points which you mentioned are not soley found in Muslim women but a lot of women immigrants in the states who have to juggle and find sanity between two cultures share the same problems/confusions etc.But since, i am a desi living in desi land only, i can not speak on behalf of women based there , but, i really want to believe what Zahra J said.

And, pray tell me, y, you have focused so much on single Muslim women?Where are the obvious faults in Single Muslim men in the states?

how, ironic: men always blame women for all their problems. tsk! tsk!

Re: # 24
You say,``..Most Pakistani women in the middle class that my mother considered, for example, neither cooked nor cleaned. That was what servants were for. ...``

That is wonderful! Please tell me what they do with all the time on hand?-

Go to work outside, volunteering, investment, gossiping, politics or partying. or engaing artsy pursuits!

what a waste of webspace this article is, the author sounds like he`s suffering from attention deficit disorder along with another mental illness

this is not a cohesive piece of writing and it sure isn`t coming from a cohesive mind.

The author says,``..The divorce rate among American Muslims has gone from 2% to 35% in one generation. ..

I do not believe this . This claim is supported at any time by CAIR. According to them, most Islamic marriages are made in heaven!

Re: # 36
Sorry I should have said ,`` this claim is NOT supported by CAIR..`` - one finger typing!!

Fazeel:

ok, as i promised i have begun reading this:

Muslims in America are delaying getting married because of a prevalence of role confusion and immaturity.

i just clicked on your intro which informs me: `` Fazeel Azeez Chauhan is an Activist and Poet. He has written extensively on issues related to Pakistani immigrants in America and has been published in Pakistan Link. Studying the Anthropologists in in Los Angeles for twenty years.....hmmmm....digression time: anthropology: anthropology, classification and analysis of humans and their society, descriptively, culturally, historically, and physically. Its unique contribution to studying the bonds of human social relations has been the distinctive concept of culture. It has also differed from other sciences concerned with human social behavior (especially sociology) in its emphasis on data from nonliterate peoples and archaeological exploration.(from net) end digression...

so my query to you would be to cite your sources for this delay in getting married...we need to establish this delay beyond reasonable doubt before we jump to relate it to the prevalence of anything...let alone role confusion...now this you need to establish also...as a good scholar...and while at it you have to establish the same (prevalence) of immaturity...this latter is very important...

...you have to be more explicit in elucidating whose `immaturity` you have in mind...we the readers have a charter of rights too. you know....and this is so loaded and ambiguous this first sentence violates clauses 3, 7, 9 and 13 of the charter of reader`s rights...

...who is immature....Muslim, America as in the USA?...are the muslims confused about the institution of marriage itself? do they think it is out-dated?...or are they confused of who should wear the pants in the new family envisaged?...or is confusion on the prevalence of necessity?...under the laws of necessity drastic and irreparable damage has been done to the national psyche (i cite the late justice munir)...these measures have been the last nail in the enigmatic conundrum facilitating foggy musings on a humid warm day in the aftermath of a lovely barbecue dissertation on the need and victory of rationality over regression in the much touted victory of prevailing winds of change over static back-to-womb charges essayed by the dormancy advocating hirsute...you sir are either a genius or baffling poor me...i need a drink...it is very warm and humid and i am still on the first sentence...

will someone not encourage me to stop.....no i think i have expressed a contrarian desire...will somebody ask me to stop?

rgds

t

ps: just FYI am not a muslimah...but have beed told am high maintenance;)

Fazeel - i think everyone`s pretty much said what I thought when I read the article i.e. i dont know if this is meant to be funny or if its badly expressed dogma. anyway, i found this entertaining although i didnt understand what the second part of the article [culled, apparently, from the posts of several chowkie interactors] had to do with muslim marriage in the US. So i`m looking forward to your post now.

cheers!

kamath.

The problem is that reliance on servants creates the illusion of a poor work ethic and being spoiled. Not that they don`t cook or clean...or are doing something else with their time instead...

---

Zerha,


``...its really sad that ur egos cant handle more but we have again, only ur mothers, women, to blame for that.``

I don`t know if it`s ego exactly...more like fear. I wouldn`t want to marry a traditional woman for probably the same reason grunge doesn`t want to marry a ``modern`` woman...just wouldn`t know how to interact with them.

The brilliance of this essay has left me simply speechless.
How the author arrived at such a magnificent piece of literary prose is an enigma to me!

Bravo!!!!

Such coherence in ideas, what flow, what continuity.

Such creativity used in the placement of an invisible thesis statement.

From Women to Men, Iqbal to Jawab Shikwa, Momin to Munafiq, marriage to divorce! WAh wah
How wonderfully the polarities are represented!!

The Editors at Chowk should be applauded for helping put such fine pieces for our reading pleasure. Bravo, Editors! You guys are just fabulous!!!

grunge,

I just could not resist responding to your post #17...

``my preferences for a wife are in complete unison with my mother`s preferences for a daughter-in-law -- a modest damsel who believes in playing the predetermined traditional role of a wife in accordance with islam, i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, raise and take care of the kids. ``

Your mothers preference doesn`t surprise me, it`s yours that was the shocker! To my mother-in-laws dismay, she didn`t get to pick me...Although my husband, held opinions very similar to yours, till we met of course, it wasn`t after we got married that he realized what he would`ve have missed, if he had married the so called (and personally non-existant) ``ideal wife``
It seems like your not looking for a wife, but rather someone who can tend to your house and kids. What education has given us, as women is the realization that marriage is a partnership. My husband is in no way my superior, but rather my partner, who I have immense love and respect for, as he does for me.

your next statement, ``I have absolutely nothing against women being on equal footing or more with men on everything, but i firmly believe that women have a far more gruelling and important task at hand, i.e., to raise the kids``.

I don`t have kids as yet, but can safely say that the gruelling task really is the giving birth part. As far as raising kids is concerned, again it`s a partnership. Your child needs a father as much as as he/she needs a mother. I won`t deny that a mother is more than likely to get more involved, but it can do no harm for a father to be just as involved. I can safely say that your child will grow up with the values you own, and more than likely be a secure individual. I was blessed with parents who believed in this priniciple, and I felt no distinction in treatment when it came to me and my brother. Most importantly we saw a good marriage, where my father treated my mother with equal respect, and although my mother was highly educated, she chose to stay home when she had kids (somethin that was not enforced by my father).
I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an arranged marriage, but rather your technique. If your trying to shop for a wife, you might find a servant, but not a partner to spend the rest of your life with...I don`t mean to sound harsh, but rather am stating reality.

Imam Hamza Yusuf zindabad!

Second generation Muslims living in the West (especially those who are not ethnically from the host country) are in a crisis--spiritual, emotional and psychological; marriage problems are just one manifestation of this.

Naqshbandi,

In general, `crisis` is an overstatement...

What about Muslims and Muslimahs who would like to have Allah-sanctioned & Mohammad-illustrated Sex but with the same sex as theirs? Or do they have to fear Hazrat Ali sanctioned burning here and in the hereafter? hmm.. hmm?

Zehra: you say ``i am sure islam is cool with it``. hey, Muta`ah is there, some ``progressive`` Sunnis need to bring this tradition into the Sunnism :-) now that would be really cool ! Fazeel Sahib is there any room for Ijmaa or Qiyaas on the legitimacy of Muta`ah. ?

Fazeel,

[I am an ordinary man trying to live an extraordinary life as my teachers told me to do. ]

and

[Men are wondering, how do they need to adapt with the new versions of Muslim women. Are we expected to live as domesticated pets, in a life of servitude?]

The above were million dollar points. The writer clearly admits the process of introspection he is going through. The fact that he is entertaining the idea of being a ``domesticated pet living a life of servitude`` must be applauded. It`s not that he has made the decision to lean in that direction but he is ``considering`` the idea by cross examining it. Wow! Chowk should feel real proud to host this article where the male writer is so forthright about his future possibilities.

If you are ever in or around NY City or NJ, I would definitely like to meet up and be further enlightened.

Z

[We have no time to read relationship books. We even lack the inclination to listen to the other person to get to know them. Rather we want to control them with our subjective conditions and terms, expecting them to obey. We exhibit the attitude of a closed minded person, instead of having a student’s perspective.]

That`s a valuable observation:`` Student`s Perspective``. I think there is a point and time for everything. I do agree with you that ``listening`` is a critical component here. Sometimes, it`s fine to be the student provided the other person is wearing the same lens. On other occasions, you have to read the person very quickly to be on the same wavelength. At times, this student approach can go against you. You may have a goof with you who does not understand your method to this madness.

I think it is necessary not only to read books on relationship but also apply the lessons learned from the books. You can read anything and everything on this planet but if you cannot implement what you read then it`s a waste of time.

How on earth is America a female-dominated society?

Reply to #45 by Raw_Dust on June 29, 2005 5:29pm PT
Mut`ah is a seperate issue we are talking about the rate of falling marriages. The reason I think is that the current generation women are more independant than the previous one`s and they fail to understand the power of compromise. I don`t want to sound like a sexist but this applies to both sexes. We fail to compromise on petty issues and these petty issues result in the break up. This new found liberty and independence of women tends to induce this sense that they can live witout a man and can raise a family I personally admire this thing but rationally thinking this is where the downfall starts. You cant me mother and father at the same time. It took Americans a generation to understand the real meaning of liberty and independence. The hollow promises of liberty of Hyppie era could not last even a decade and they had to turn to their past to seek solace. We desis are passing through that same metamorphisis state we are blindly accepting the norms ofwest without realising the facts that these might not the useful to us in the future. We dont learn from other`s experiences and we will never learn becuase the intelligentsia among us does not have the moral courage to challange the change with valid reasons. Those stupid people that think they will find their IDEAL partner live in fool`s paradise. Their is nothing IDEAL in the real world unless you fake it and marriages dont last long on fake promises. As far as the issue of shadi.com or shodionline is concerned no one takes them seriously. Marriage is a serious issue which you cant resolve on message boards and instant messengers.

ATISHRAJ
atishraj@hotmail.com

Re: # 1

If marriage is to be extracted from religion. Then how is it defined? What principles should be followed which would make a marriage work?

To keep the discussion on track:

There are a lot of QUESTIONS raised in the article. It would be productive if readers respond to those specific questions also. A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?

Re: # 2

Dude from Canada,

One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``. You make some assumptions that I am against conservative Muslims. I am talking about muslims and non-muslims alike, we can all be mushrik, munafiq, momin, kafir, mohsin, etc.

If you`d like solutions, you could visit my website. I`m all about solutions. The main solution is pre-marital training as some Catholics do

Re: # 3

There are millions of fish in the sea

Re: # 5

I have frequently had conversations with people who were high on marijuana or alchol. The next day, the meaninglessness of the conversation is evident.

As for religion, depends on how one defines himself. Based on how you identify yourself, you try to find a compatible partner. For example two people who enjoy drinking, might get along well and have a great time together

Re: # 7

There is a lot of confusion around. And a lot of folks don`t know what they want, except more money and more imitation of what`s on TV. What I want is better relationships near and far

Re: # 9

Most of my activist friends drink and can still have good conversations, specially in the day time. Getting a date is not a problem, it`s easy, as you said, in a bar, on dating websites, etc.

Depends on what one is looking for. I`m not looking for a date, which is a short-term type relationship. Marriage is a long-term type relationship

As for definitions... Even Iqbal says that even a person who calls himself `muslim` could have behavior which could be identified as `kafir`.

The definitions apply to all humans; muslims and non-muslims alike

Re: # 10

I guess the joke`s on future generations?

Re: # 11

I`m not hear to condemn anyone. If we look at the statement in a broader context, we can examine the symptoms of the patient. If the patient keeps eating junk food, and pretends he eats good food, then it explains why he`s not healthy today. Hopefully tomorrow he`ll feel better

Re: # 14

Yes, you make excellent points, about the role of parents.

Also, as you said, if the person today was looking in the mainstream, they may find more folks, compared to a muslim in america looking specifically for a muslim spouse, which is a very small group set to fill the requirements

Re: # 16

The influence of parents is huge among daysees, specially the mother. Just like Caucasian americans can pass on their bigotry to the future generations, similarly, our parents pass on their biases, which can take time to overcome, but first we have to acknowledge that we have a problem, for example a over-emphasis on fair skin. Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots. So that we end up behaving like we were born yesterday, when disconnected from history

Re: # 17

Wow!

Thank you for giving us a personal example, from the same household. I agree with everything you`re saying.

Only one thing, I don`t use the word ``subservient``.

Women are the managers of relationships, because as childbirth, they are genetically geared toward relationships, and have been also socially so, for thousands of years.

I also believe women are superior to men in almost every way.

I don`t have anything against working women, or independent, liberated, westernized women. I just ask this question, feminism succeeded in getting lots of rights, and giving lots of power to women, but did it teach women how to have good relationships with men?

Re: # 18

Salam Alaykum Sajal,

I had hoped you were going to answer the specific questions raised in the article, from the point of view of how can we solve this problem. What are the solutions, from a woman`s point of view, other than:
men should just obey, the new and subjective rules thought up by women?

> To create a happy, loving home both men and women have to work ``together``.

I agree

> You can not put more blame on the woman than the man,

For fairness, please quote the specific lines where I did that

> it is an equal task or commitment.
i agree there

> I agree women are becoming more educated and there is a lot of confusion as to what to expect and not to expect but it is not only on the part of women but men also.

sure. Yet since 1960`s, the degree of change that women have gone thru is huge, and men are trying to find ways to deal with that. The change in the women`s role, created a confusion about what is a man`s role with the new woman. What does a lot of damage is when the woman says ``I`ve changed, you just need to adjust``. Meaning she has done all the adjustments which serve her individual self. So the emphasis becomes on self-serving, and she expects the man to serve her too. And a good man will say, sis it`s good that you have become empowered, like my daddy used to be. But can we now go to the next level, where neither the man, nor the woman is self-serving, but instead both are serving the relationship?

> Men are confused too ,

Most of the role-confusion of men, resulted after the women changed. The parts of the new woman which have confusion, are the parts which cause confusion in men

> changing times, values , attitudes, economics make it difficult for both to adjust.

this is true, and sounds like the changes outside the home. And it`s different from what is causing the change in relationship roles in the home

> A sensible couple is one which understands each other and is ready to respect each other and stick to each other through thick and thin.

i agree.

> I am sorry to say that but you have written an article which is extremely biased towards women.

I hope you know that I take great care to not be biased toward any group. If i say that a lot of dentists i encounter, like car mechanics, try to rip people off. Does it mean I am biased against dentists? Help me out and list the specific lines which are extremely biased toward women. So I can clarify them. And if I find that I said something biased, I will be happy to apologize for it

> I will tell you this men are not so perfect either,

I agree, I never said men are perfect. I began the article by saying that too.

> so maybe you need to put on different glasses to look at men.

The breakdown of communication happens when both people say this. The person in power, the woman, is more likely to not want to put on different glasses, and this is what I`m asking her to do

>Divorce is a terrible reality,

A ``terrible reality``, I don`t understand what that means. I don`t define divorce in that way, though there are many complexities in it

> it simply means two people cannot live together for whatever reasons.

I disagree. It simply doesn`t mean that. And it isn`t for ``whatever`` unknown reasons.

How do I define divorce... It is like throwing your children in front of a school bus.
As the purpose of marriage is mostly about children, the effects of divorce are mostly on the children.
The children prefer that both parents died, instead of them getting divorced.

We can come up with lots of cases of successful, well adjusted, high achievers who are the children of divorce. Yet it is said:
It takes a whole village to raise a child.
Does the new woman think she is so powerful that she can do the whole job alone?

So an important question I ask women is:
What do you need a husband for?

> You are an educated man and I am sure you know that we cannot blame just one person for it. We have to look at all angles and then determine.

In psychology, an important idea is the difference between:
Responsibility versus Blame

As a common disease among us daysees is an un-examined life, hum apnay giraybaan may naheen jhaanktay.

As they say in twelve-step programs like AA:
Remember when you are pointing ONE finger at someone, THREE are pointing at yourself. (If we look at our hand, pointing).
Meaning, instead of blame, reframe

Instead of blaming the other person, take responsibility of your own actions.

As you said, to become educated, I have spent a dozen years studying this area of life. So I`ve tried very hard to keep my side of the street clean, to learn as much as I can, to do my best in my role toward a woman.

Women have learned a lot, in other areas. Because she is the main figure, the most inflential member of a family, if she does not learn about how to have good a relationship with her husband, the disintegration of the family will continue.

>Life happens in varying shades of gray and is not just black and white.

For me ``Life happens`` is not empowering, instead I believe:

Haalaat Kay Qadmo`n May Qalandar Naheen Girta
Tootay Bhee Jo Tara To Zameen Par Naheen Girta
Girtay Hain BaRRay Showk Say Samandar May Darya
Laykin Kisee Darya May Samandar Naheen Girta

The human is more powerful than his circumstances:
``Jahaan Hay Tayray Liyay
Tu Naheen Jahaan Kay Liyay``
- Iqbal

Now about life being grey, that`s a female point of view. Which is fine because men and women are different. For men, life is black and white, because we are simple creatures. Another reason why women being more complex, are superior to men.

This is why men play games which have black and white rules. In teams and groups, boys (like boy scouts) and men, always need a ``Code of Honor`` to operate, otherwise we kill each other, if we think in grey.

Men and women are ying and yang, blending into each other, yet each part of the ying yang symbol is clearly identifiable.

An important question I ask is:
As a woman increases her education and income,
Does she decrease her responsibilites toward the relationship with a husband?

qawali,

`` A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?``

``Need`` in what sense, and why is this question asymmetrical wrt men?

`` One could say that YOU are the one ``creating mischief``.``

One could...but the point was the term is NOT to be treated lightly. It`s all nice in the abstract, but the idea that YOU can identify who is and who is not a mushrik, munafiq, etc. opens you up for criticism just as well.

“Possibly one of the factors is colonization where we were taught to hate ourselves and what looks like us, to sever us from our roots”

I dunno if colonization explains my mothers refusal to consider anyone from particular parts of India…

#52

A general question I`m asking is, why does a woman need a man? Specifically, why does a working woman need a husband?

I think these economically independent women don’t need a man to be their provider. That doesn’t mean they don’t want fulfilling and lasting relationships with men. They just want more than the traditional desi husband-wife role allows them. Personally, I think that’s to be celebrated, not admonished. Men should want to be regarded as more than just “providers”. I would hope they have much more to offer on an intellectual and personal level than simply their earning potential.

The liberated woman isn’t looking for an indentured servant; rather she wants the man in her life to assume an active role in the marriage as a partner, and as a father to her children. What’s wrong with that?

There has been a blurring of gender roles (referring to the U.S. here), but again I regard that as a positive development. It allows couples to define what works for them in accordance with their personal brand of life. At the end of the day it’s about being with someone likeminded. If two people don’t share values and goals then it’s difficult to make a marriage work period.

Beej:
#73

A total aside: I was not interacting on the Bunty aur Babli board but I did see your post re the refugees. Took me some time to go through the posts to understand what was going on. Hence the late answer which is a vehement NO! I do not subscribe to the narrow definition of conferring refugee status. I agree with anil et al.

miriam #65:

think universal yaar: it is about relationship between equals

if there are constraints -- religious or social or cultural than it is not a `stirve` on an even field...

just that!

lve

t

I never quite figured out why the sexual urge of men and women differ so
much. And I never have figured out the whole Venus and Mars thing. I have
never figured out why men think with their head and women with their heart.

FOR EXAMPLE: One evening last week, my girlfriend and I were getting into
bed.

Well, the passion starts to heat up, and she eventually says ``I don`t feel
like it, I just want you to hold me.``

I said ``WHAT??!! What was that?!``

So she says the words that every boyfriend on the planet dreads to hear...
``You`re just not in touch with my emotional needs as a woman enough for me
to satisfy your physical needs as a man.`` She responded to my puzzled look
by saying, ``Can`t you just love me for who I am and not what I do for you in
the bedroom?``

Realizing that nothing was going to happen that night, I went to sleep.

The very next day I opted to take the day off of work to spend time with
her. We went out to a nice lunch and then went shopping at a big, big
unnamed department store. I walked around with her while she tried on
several different very expensive outfits. She couldn`t decide which one to
take so I told her we`d just buy them all. She wanted new shoes to
compliment her new clothes, so I said lets get a pair for each outfit. We
went onto the jewelry department where she picked out a pair of diamond
earrings. Let me tell you...she was so excited. She must have thought I was
one wave short of a shipwreck. I started to think she was testing me because
she asked for a tennis bracelet when she doesn`t even know how to play
tennis. I think I threw her for a loop when I said, ``That`s fine, honey.``
She was almost nearing sexual satisfaction from all of the excitement.
Smiling with excited anticipation she finally said, ``I think this is all
dear, let`s go to the cashier.``

I could hardly contain myself when I blurted out, ``No honey, I don`t feel
like it.``

Her face just went completely blank as her jaw dropped with a baffled
WHAT?``

I then said ``honey! I just want you to HOLD this stuff for a while. You`re
just not in touch with my financial needs as a man enough for me to satisfy
your shopping needs as a woman.`` And just when she had this look like she
was going to kill me, I added, ``Why can`t you just love me for who I am and
not for the things I buy you?``

Apparently I`m not having sex tonight either.

Re: # 68
Apparently not!!

With that remark, I`d be surprised if you`d get any for a very long time.

Yikes, man.

Maybe, ``You need to hold me`` is code for longer foreplay. Get the hint.

Muslim women in islamic countries, oppressed and suppressed in their homes, once they get to the west get consumed by penis envy.They think and act like men, most of them become lesbians and become devious and sly like that `Alam` b*tch, `cause that`s how they think men are.These women are so stupid they creep me out.No wonder no muslim man wants to go near these trolls.

#68 if it was a joke then

but seriously man, you need to get a life and find out, if you a sentient being can waste some much of your time in thinking up this little revenge I wouldnt be surprised if even doormats rebel.
Somehow, my gut instinct tells me that this was all played out in your imagination whilst you lay in bed cursing your girl friend for the KLPD!

So which one is you,

A lawyer married a woman who had previously divorced ten husbands.

On their wedding night, she told her new husband, ``Please be gentle, I`m still a virgin.``

``What?`` said the puzzled groom.

``How can that be if you`ve been married ten times?``

``Well, Husband #1 was a sales representative: he kept telling me how great it was going to be.

Husband #2 was in software services: he was never really sure how it was supposed to function, but he said he`d look into it and get back to me.

Husband #3 was from field services: he said everything checked out diagnostically but he just couldn`t get the system up.

Husband #4 was in telemarketing: even though he knew he had the order, he didn`t know when he would be able to deliver.

Husband #5 was an engineer: he understood the basic process but wanted three years to research, implement, and design a new state-of-the-art method.

Husband #6 was from finance and administration: he thought he knew how, but he wasn`t sure whether it was his job or not.

Husband #7 was in marketing: although he had a nice product, he was never sure how to position it.

Husband #8 was a psychologist: all he ever did was talk about it.

Husband #9 was a gynecologist: all he did was look at it.

Husband #10 was a stamp collector: all he ever did was... God! I miss him! But now that I`ve married you, I`m really excited!``

``Good,`` said the new husband, ``but, why?``

``You`re a lawyer. This time I know I`m gonna get screwed!``

# 68 by Soulat

LOL!! That was funny even if it wasn`t real.

#66 MiriamK

Thanks, you have no idea how reassuring I find that you do not subscribe to the crap mentioned on that board. I am sorry about all the “unladylike” language (that you may have encountered) the janitor in me has been spewing all over the place. However, like all things in life (good and bad) this one shall pass, too! Someday perhaps, so shall the janitor! After his purpose is complete, or perhaps after His purpose is complete (I suppose there must be one (assuming there IS One, right?).) Again, sorry about my language!

Re: # 71

``Somehow, my gut instinct tells me that this was all played out in your imagination whilst you lay in bed cursing your girl friend for the KLPD!``

hahaha...
Its been a long time sinve I heard the word ``KLPD`` used in a sentence. By any chance are you from BITS, Pilani. I had few roommates from there, they used to use it often, along with ``basically``.

#75 by Netizen
[…Its been a long time since I heard the word ``KLPD`` used in a sentence. By any chance are you from BITS, Pilani…..]

Where have you BEEN? KLPD is one of our ancient (most sacred) pearls of thought used extensively in all nooks and corners of the Indian subcontinent, in every university class-room and dorm, day and night, even bathrooms, in every position imaginable, since the early 1950’s. I personally think it was among the few worthwhile legacies the British left behind in the subcontinent, a perfect epitome of our various freedoms of choice, for all sexes! For the benefit of those individuals who are still unclear regarding what the initials KLPD stand for, I produce below my own understanding of it!

KLPD = Kanhaiya Laal Premi-chand Dukhiyare.

Re: # 19
chauhan saheb:

> This article is teeming with so many inaccuracies, stereotypes and blatant untruths about women that I don’t even know where to begin.

* Some specifics would be helpful, which statements?

> Well, after you’re done excoriating (read: cutting down) women, how about lending a hand to women who are managing a career, home, children, and unhelpful husbands. That may restore the faith of “high maintenance”, “trigger happy” women in desi men.

* My intention is to lend a helping hand to women. The issue is, the new working Muslim woman thinks she`s number one, and above the children, above the husband. And also her career is the number one priority, above the children, above the husband.

* If the woman assumes she`s number one, the only way a man can make a relationship ``work`` is if he blindly obeys her. And what does he get in return?

> Sir, ever dared to envision a partnership between a husband and wife? You know, where instead of the wife being an unwavering vassal, the husband is not only cognizant but God forbid supportive of his partner’s needs (both personal and professional). Neither party lives in servitude. Imagine that.

* If you read the article again, without presumptions, you will find that I`m hoping for the same: A successful, respectful partnership

>I think if the author were truly serious about engaging readers in “a deeper study of relationship issues” he would not have made such benighted remarks about women,

* Please help me out here, and list some specific examples so I could respond to them

> and as _digit says placed a “disproportionate burden of maintaining the family” on them.

* Around age 35, a woman usually has to decide:
Do I want to be a career woman, or a woman with a career?

* If she is a career woman, that is her number one priority, which is also above her family.

* A family woman`s number one priority is her family, above all else. Her children are number one, her husband is number two, and she`s number three. Similarly, for a mutually beneficial partnership, the man`s number one priority has to be his children, number two his wife, and number three himself.

* Simply put, it a modified model of the old give before you receive

> You have gone out of your way to unabashedly pander to the insecurities of desi men

* Sounds like you`re saying daysi men are insecure. No one`s perfect, so some daysi men would be insecure. I don`t understand what that has to do with the article?

Re: # 20

Babe, you have way too much time on your hands. Wish you all the best

Re: # 22
: o )
I`m glad you were able to find the humor in that paragraph. Sometimes the situation is so bad, we have to laugh at it

Re: # 46

Very witty! a rare quality
: o )
You are indeed very funny. Thanks for making me laugh.

The truth is, no man worth his salt would become a domesticated pet. As Robert Bly says in his landmark book ``Iron John``...
There are three types of men:
1) The Savage man: Has no principles and boundaries
2) The Wild man: Follows principles and yet is free
3) The Domesticated Man: Weak on principles and not free, thus usually caged by a dominitrix

In New York, you can learn from my teacher:
http://higherpurpose.com

Re: # 23

> I`m simply seeking a like minded person...but in the end I would want one who, like myself, is willing to prioritize family above all else.

* This is one of my main points: What are the woman`s priorities shown in her behavior:
Herself as number one, or is it making money, or power at work via a career,

is it Money, Baby, Hubby?

Re: # 24

> ``in accordance with islam, i.e, stay at home, cook, clean, raise and take care of the kids.``

* Which article did you get that quote from? It`s not in my article. A good principle to follow in life is, don`t make shtuff up

Re: # 34

Watching Indian movies is a common pastime, no?

Re: # 78

too much time on your hands, I meant that only for Mr. digit

Re: # 25

> The main beef I have with your article is that you could have dropped the “Muslim” word and pretty much still made many of the same points. What you describe is also (by and large) true of Indians, too and the divorce rate is quite high (I know of three cases personally)

* Since I am in the subset group, a Muslim, and familiar mostly with that group, I didn`t want to make sweeping generalizations about other communities.

> You also make whole bunch of sweeping statements in the most general way (e.g., “We exhibit the attitude of a closed minded person, instead of having a student’s perspective.”)

* I meant to describe some of the general problems, or common tendencies that cause problems


> Notes:
[Usually women put a lot of emphasis on the desire to be entertained and complimented by men. Some even say “Lie to me, to make me happy”.]
> Some?

* Very funny, and true. Does she want me to become a liar?
: o )

[…women who are looking for a temporary fix: to combat boredom, curiosity, confusion.]
> I guess READING just doesn’t give the same level of satisfaction. Perhaps they could try WRITING!

* Could you please convince them?
: o )

[…developing the illusion that she is the most valuable commodity in heaven and earth. ]
> And just when I was getting used to thinking that MEN have that role.

* Men had that luxury in the home country. But in America, the woman tells the man, mayri khidmat karo, varna...

[(2) Kafir: They are the same inside and out, but don’t believe in living an honorable life, for example, based on the teachings of Islam.]
> I guess that would rule out all those HINDOOS as potential husband material – talk about narrowing down your own options! (Apne pairon per kulharee!)

* I phrased that statement, I thought with care... I think it clearly states, that ONE example of living an honorable life, is for a person who chooses to follow Islamic teachings.

* As Karen Armstrong says in her book ``A History of God``:

* The litmus test of a personal who follows any spiritual principles is, does it make him a more kind and compassionate human being

* In the Islamic tradition, we believe that there were prophets and messengers sent to every nation, in every era. Possibly there were 124,000 of such guides. Per Hamza Yusuf, it is likely that Buddha and Krishna were among such teachers.

Re: # 26

Thanks for understanding our frustrations

Re: # 30

Dear Miss Rizvi,

> As a 27 year old unmarried Muslim American woman, let me say, ur article is scary.

* A a Muslim man, we may be more scared than you?

> someone else interacted and said, she didnt know where to start.

* Yes, it is a huge subject. I hope we can look at the many dimensions and avenues of it

> my two cents on this one:

* sis, I found your interaction valueable, caring and true

> it is difficult to find a man.

* Thus, women could help to send males to places where boys could be initiated into manhood.

> we also dont really feel like we need men to cook and clean up after UNLESS we loved them for who they are and they loved us for who we are, that includes us, our bodies, our eccentricities, complexities etc (that is normal for all humans).

* I agree. A man should get a maid instead, not a wife

> many muslim girls in the US get married since they are supposed to ( i am speaking only from a S. Asian perspective...there are plenty of other muslim communities in the US)

* I agree. Most people get married on auto-pilot

> and they realize that they were supposed to get married and all that was told to them aboutit was not what it was cracked up to be

* As the footnote of the article says, we need training. Also because we were miseducated or uneducated about relationships

* We`re pushed a lot to study and make money. Parents don`t tell you ``Make a million dollar marriage``

> and excaping their own mothers is really not enough reason to get married into another prison.

* Psychologist John Bradshaw calls this, the ``Poisonous Pedigogy``. Parents lacked training, and did the best they could. They pass on their bad habits to their children, who grow up and repeat the same patterns, blindly. And thus the dysfunctional behavior keeps being handed down to future generations

> It is a problem since as an interactor put it (grunge i think), there are plenty of traditional women to marry (and consequently divorce)

* good point about divorce. I guess a man could go back and keep getting married and getting divorced. Sounds painful though.

> who are fair skinned, obedient and sub servient.

* Some men may find those qualities boring. Indeed I know some cases where the men had become somewhat Americanized and a woman who is too submissive, they didn`t know how to deal with.

> good for u muslim men if that is what u want out of your life partner...its really sad that ur egos cant handle more but we have again, only ur mothers, women, to blame for that.

* As Islamic teachings emphasize balance...
I was hoping the article might indicate a need for that. Education is good for women, work may be good for women too. Often, an educated and mature woman, who`s also seen life in the work environment, often desires to quit her job and be a full time mom. Because that brings her more satisfaction than any career. She usually realizes this in her mid-thirties, if not before.

* A divorced single mother, could have a big job, a big house, a big bank account, but an empty heart, because she longs for a fulfilling relationship with a man

> i want babies, i like to cook and i have a life that is my own and i am willing to share it with someone who shares my values and thoughts on life. its rally not that much to ask.

* that`s what I`m saying in the article

> and why must we worry about getting married later? aint nothing wrong with that.

* yes, used to be women worried about the biological clock and wrinkles. But now modern medicine and hundred dollar facial creames can do wonders

> im fine with being a single mom too, though im not sure how well that goes down in islam. not very well culturally for sure but im sure islam is cool with it.

* Yes, that`s a common trend. See, women don`t need a man. They can go to a sperm bank, and have a baby, get the love from the child, like teenage moms do. A married woman can divorce, get half her hubby`s money, house, babies. And make him pay alimony and child support and she can live happily ever after?

Re: # 31

What`s bigoted in that statement. You can use any other word in English, instead of ``Kafir`` as you prefer

Re: # 32

Please list some specific examples

gawali,

Post #24 was in response to grunge, not to you.

I was a Moose Limb living in America for almost fifteen years. Instead of marrying in America to a FOB desi, an ABCD, a kaali, or a gori, I decided to marry a Turk in Turkey. Good decision. I am very happy as a result. :)
Salim

#91 by googenschlaugen on July 2, 2005 10:02am PT


I decided to marry a Turk in Turkey. Good decision. I am very happy as a result. :)
Salim