Enigma of the Defence Budget

Enigma of defence budget

Dear Sherry you have written a beautiful article like yourself but, excuse me, you fell short of marshalling the full facts about the actual spendings in the name of defense. What is shown in the budget or even in the accounts in this respect is only, so to say, a tip of the iceberg. But why be so concerned about it when your leader the great Bhutto often used to display his determination to fight a thousand years’ war with India and to make atom bomb even if the nation has to eat grass. We are not eating grass yet though the mighty Bhutto could not defend himself from the `defence` even with all his horses including the FSF.

#62 by faisaluno

[oh look, its chowk`s pagal kutta in residence back to receive his daily dose of gaalis from us much in the same manner as his ancestors did for all those years.]

Abay gadhay ki aulad, our ancestors as well as yours were at the receiving end of the gaalis, but the only difference is that yours were raped as well, which is why you are a katlu.

Why is that some writers do not interact with readers at all ......Sherry sure seems like one or ishe can not due to the faulty SEA-ME-WE-3 cable.

hey doggie whats the big deal? you have been stalking me and begging for my attention even though i have nothing but contempt for your kind.

#62 by faisaluno on July 4, 2005 3:23am PT

Save the bandwidth...Pakiland needs every bit of it...As it is, you`ve lost whatever piddly IT exports you had...now you have to come begging to India for an internet connection...

Pakistan seeks Indian help for Net connectivity

By Muhammad Najeeb, Islamabad: Pakistan Saturday requested India to link it to the worldwide web, five days after its Internet links with most parts of the world were cut off.

``We have asked India to link Pakistan with the international web,`` a spokesman for Pakistan Telecommunication Corp Ltd (PTCL) told IANS.

The response from India was awaited, he added.

Asked how long it would take to connect Pakistan through India, the official said: ``Not more than a few hours.``

Pakistan`s Internet links were snapped Tuesday last due to a fault in an undersea optic fibre cable.

Pakistan has sought international help to rectify the fault but has yet not succeeded in this.

Bad weather has further delayed the arrival of a ship at Karachi from Dubai to repair the cable, which is Pakistan`s sole Internet link with the rest of the world, excepting the satellite links PTCL recently acquired, sources said.

They said 40 and 50 percent of the cable had been damaged and it could take days to detect and remove the faults.

Eighty percent of Pakistan`s Internet users have been facing connectivity problems since Tuesday. Twenty percent have been able to connect through satellite links.

oh look, its chowk`s pagal kutta in residence back to receive his daily dose of gaalis from us much in the same manner as his ancestors did for all those years. waisay i wonder why chowk allows these jaanwers to take take residence here? i think chowk-staff might be indians and the barking of these dogs reminds them of home.

#60 by Romair on July 3, 2005 9:24pm PT


The business sector is different. Pakistan`s business sector is not dominated by feudals and maulvis.


Name one Paki company that rises to the level of Reliance, Infosys or Wipro...Name one Pakistani billionaire...

can`t? didn`t think so...Your BS might work on the retarded bong and that too in the Paki echo-chamber of self-delusion....in the real world, it`s as effective at changing the reality as your t-shirt with paki flags were effective at making pakis the favorites of the american junta...

faisaluno #58: ``however i dont trust people like zardari and nawaz sharif to bring in reform. army acts as a check on these politicians and these people will destroy the army much in the same manner is bhutto destroyed the private sector.``

I`ll explain the detials of plot aloocation and the advantages Generals take out of it, in a separate reply. As well as how military allocations are done for positions in places like PIA, etc. I keep bringing up PIA, since I am familiar with it............

I agree completely that Zardari, NS etc. are far more corrupt. There should be no doubt in anyone`s mind. I doubt there are any Generals with 61 off-shore companies, or who have avoided taxes to the extent that NS has etc.

However, the Army is not a credible check. Sooner or later it will join the gravy train also. Which it has started doing, at the high ranks.

In politics, I actually have nothing against the Army kicking out the likes of BB and NS. If feudals, maulvis and generals are the only choices available, then I would not vote. However, if I had to, then my vote would, in most cases, go to the Generals.

The business sector is different. Pakistan`s business sector is not dominated by feudals and maulvis. There are plenty of genunie competent businessmen and businesswomen available. There is plenty of executive talent available. There are plenty of people settled abroad, who are willing to come back, also. In fact, whenever a level playing field has been made available, the Pakistani businessman and entreprenuer has delivered. It is now starting to deliver again, when Shaukut Aziz and Co. has provided it with a level playing field.............The Pakistani business sector is far more competent, dedicated, genuine, and patriotic than Pakistan`s political sector. It does not need any interference from Generals, or anyone else.

There is absolutely no reason for the military of any country, to be running airlines, cement factories, banks, etc. There is ample competent talent availabe to run banks, and fly airliners, in the civil.

The biggest affect of all this will be that the Army will no longer remain a fighting army.........Even today, it is the Colonels and below who are holding up the flag of the Army. Above these ranks, the Army is becoming hollow by the day. And it is not because of its involvement in politics. It is because of its involvement in business............

in my earlier post, i meant to write that public sector entities cannot attract people from the private sector.

romiar, perhaps you can shed some light on how plot allocation system works in the army and how senior officers take advantage of the system. i know few retired senior army officers in karachi. none of them have a lifestyle that can be described as luxurious. a couple of my uncles retired as generals few years ago. both of them got one plot each in defence. both of them built a house on that property by getting bank loans. both of them have put their houses on rent because they could not afford the payment. they themselves live in rented apts.

i also have friends whose father retired below the rank of general. some of them live in askari apts which were built for the army if i am not mistaken. others live in places like seaview. these places in karachi can be described as upper middle class. btw, if you want to compare lifestyles, sherry rehman`s husband as the number two man at citibank pak was making over a million rupees a month and used to drive around in a mercedes that according to my estimate cost between rs. 6-7 million. btw, i also saw an interesting comment in today`s news on govt and plot allotment:

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/

``...Wife of a retired government employee on this occasion told the prime minister that her husband could not get plot during his service. The prime minister told her that the government would develop some more sectors and added that new allotments would be purely on merit through balloting...``

i also agree with you that public sector companies should not give preference to retired army officers. however you have to realise that there is a huge shortage of senior level skilled manpower in pak. most engineers graduating from places like ned end up moving abroad. the ones who cant end up in places like kesc and wapda. if you were running a public sector entity in pak, would you prefer to hire someone from wapda or someone from the army? and please remember that public sector entities can attract people from the private sector.

overall, i agree with you that reform is necessary. however i dont trust people like zardari and nawaz sharif to bring in reform. army acts as a check on these politicians and these people will destroy the army much in the same manner is bhutto destroyed the private sector.

faisaluno #55: `` have no problems if at retirement after 20 years of loyal service, senior pak army officers are able to afford a 500 yard plot in defence and a toyota corolla.``

Yes, there is nothing wrong with this. In fact, I am all for it. However, there is a better way to do this. The salaries of junior officers should be raised. Specifically those who have high qualifications. My friend, with a Ph.D, teaching at NUST, should not be making 1/8th the salary of my friend, who also has a Ph.D., teaching at LUMS. Which is currently the case. Also, my friend commanding an F-16 squadron should not be making 1/4th to 1/5ht the salary of my friend who is the Captain of an Airbus in PIA...........

However, this is not how the problem is handled. What is done is that people who make it to the General ranks are compensated heavily through multiple plots (not just one) etc. More importantly, those who have contacts, after 20 years of service, end up in lucrative positions, in PIA, Fauji foundations etc.

Why in the world should a pilot who has had a career of 25 years in the PAF, be placed in PIA? Which airline of the world allows that? When there are hundreds of qualified pilots in their 20s, who have never had a single govt. job. What about them? Similarly, why should a General after 35 years of service, not just retire into silent oblivion. Why should he then go on and become an ambassador or be made CEO of Fauji Cement.

All these guys are taking jobs away from someone. And that too, after having a full career in the military, already.......If there were a shortage of pilots in Pakistan, one could understand the PAF sending someone to PIA. But there isn`t. There is actually a large excess. Similary if there were a shortage of people who can run cement factories, one could undersand, Generals runing them, or sitting on their Boards. But there isn`t a shortage........

There are people in Pakistan, who are literally living off the govt. One career in the military. Then another one in another govt. owned organization, like PIA, PIDC, Foreign service. And for some, even a third........They have become very wealthy through this........

``as far as i know, salaries of even generals are much lower than those of their counterpart in the pvt sector.``

This is true. But the solution is not to give them plots galore, to make up for it. Or place them into PIA etc. If they think their salaries are low, they should be allowed to quit and compete in the private sector. They should quit and apply for a job in PIA, or in a bank. If they cannot get such a job, then they are not qualified enough............They shouldn`t just be placed there......

I was hugely underpaid in the military, in comparison to the job I was doing. I eventually quit. And then looked for another job. I thought about trying in PIA, but did not have any contacts to get the job. Then I started another career in IT.......That is how it should work........

#55 by faisaluno on July 3, 2005 7:32am PT

why do you need good people....When you had the heights in Kargil and the Indians counter-attacked, you turned tail and ran...When the Indians had the heights in Siachen, your mission to revocer the heights has been a miserable failure...

the Paki army can achieve the same lack of success if the recruited you....

romair,

i have no problems if at retirement after 20 years of loyal service, senior pak army officers are able to afford a 500 yard plot in defence and a toyota corolla. this is contingent upon pak army selecting and promoting people on merit as much as possible. also it makes no difference to me whether you compensate senior officers by cash or by allocating them a plot. as far as i know, salaries of even generals are much lower than those of their counterpart in the pvt sector. a good bank executive with around 15 years of experience these days makes around rs 3-4 lacs a month. a very senior bank executive with foreign experience makes rs. 5-7 lacs. i would estimate senior officers at the top echelon of pak army earn a fraction of this.

i think you have to pay a decent salary if you want to attract and retain good people and take away incentive for peole to be corrupt. this concept should also apply to police officers as well as bureaucrats. i think there is a proposal with govt to do away with perks and pay govt employess cash instead. this proposal is being resisted by vested interest who benefit by defrauding govt through fake bills etc.

They have also called in to reduce and nearly eliminate the number of servants attached with officers for monetary compensation and for hiring civilian workforce. I am confused about the consequences of that.. however i feel that goes in line with the ``reduction`` of armed personnel.. shame shame sir musharraf..

My tour of indian metros continues.......

pic of CHENNAI (formerly MADRAS)....the 4th largest metro in India...


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=212307&page=4

#45 by fuzair :

``I wouldn`t hold up the example of the CCP and Mao Zedong as ``proving`` the virutes of ``Dictator for Life.`` Mao was arguably the worse thing that ever happened to China (upto and including the Opium Wars and the Japanese invasion). Read some Chinese history and find out what Mao did during the Great Leap Forward and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

Now, if you were to hold up Deng Xiaoping as ``proving`` why a lifetime job is a good thing, that is another matter! ``

I was not intended to proved Mao as the Dictator faced by China, but if you know in China Communist Party the bottom up approach of constituiting leadership always chose him to be the chairman of its party. For the coincidence of Benazir Bhutto who herself proclaimed to be the denominator whereby she is included by the majority people to continue this designation would be proven the same if done democratically. And by that way she is nominating her subordinates and authorities which also should be elected by themselves so reversing the socio political procedures making the party weak.
Mao is criticized for his Laep Forward plan for transforming from rapid agricultural growing economy to modern light industrialization where China faced many droughts at those couple of years. But it was a positive incentive towards uplifting rural growth and making new opportunities in Urban Development. The real picture at macro level can be described by an economist.

faisaluno #49: I know next to nothing about Sherry Rehman.

Zardari is obviously massively corrupt. And has been convicted in Switzerland. And will be convicted in Pakistan also, if the cases are allowed to go through completely. And I have written many times, on the double-speak of PPP urban, ``liberals.`` They, on the one hand, portray themselves as liberals, and on the other hand, support life party presidents, and leaders who have wives married to the Quran. So I agree with you there 100%.

I also agree with you that politicians are much more corrupt than Generals.......

But that does not excuse the fact that the Army Generals are corrupt also. Army has legalized corruption. It is corrupt at a smaller scale than many other groups, but it still practices it. And the more it gets into business ventures the more corrupt it will get. If these business venture opportunities ever go below the rank of Brigadiers, and reach the Leiutenants and Jawans, there will be no fighting Army left.

This is what happened to the Mughal armies and others. All their Generals started getting more interested in getting land and money........

There is absolutely, without an iota of a doubt, no reason for the Army or Air Force or Navy to be in the civilian business sector. It is a huge conflict of interest. It is not where the training of the Generals happens to be. It chokes the private sector. And it corrupts the Army. Not to mention the fact that the Generals cannot run private sector ventures in profit. Fauji industries only run in profit, where there is a near monopoly, or where the Army can fill their coffers with the Army`s assets (e.g. Askari bank).

A corps commander of Lahore should want that position because he wants to defend his country, and progress his professional training and career. He shouldn`t want it because he can get a plot or two, in Lahore Defence Society, which he may not be able to get if he is commanding a corps in Mangla. A retired Colonel should not end up in civilian organizations, and take jobs away from civilians. Imagine if someone from the Foreign Service or PIA or the highway authority etc. was appointed a Brigade commander........

All of this should end. The Army is becoming the butt of jokes now, which highly affects the morale of the junior fighting officers, who do the actual fighting..........

Sherry

When next time PPP comes to power, reduce the regular recruitment in the Army by 10%. Also reduce the Army budget by 10%.

If the Army Chief does some `choon charaan`, fire him. At that time, do not compromise just to keep the `throne`. Appoint the next senior most as Army Chief and not your `favourite`.

It is pointless writing these articles & TV discussions. 50% of blame rests with the spineless and principle-less politicians. Even now, 50% of the paliament (politicians) is with military Government.

nhk

romair,

if you want to gauge the level of political corruption in pak, read the u.s. congress investigation on zardari`s citibank account activity. also fyi, sherry rehman is currently married to the guy who used to head citibank`s retail banking arm in pak in mid to late 90`s . guy`s name is nadeem hussain and he is currently based in london if i am not mistaken. another ineteresting fact about nadeen hussain is that he indirectly reported to shaukat aziz. also if i am not mistaken, shaukat aziz also testified in the hearing because he used to head citi pvt banking globally.

given nadeem hussain`s position within citi, its simply not possible that he does not know details of zardari`s corruption. and since nadeem hussain knows the truth about zardari, so does sherry rehman. and yet she continues to represent him in pak. if this does not tell people how despicable sherry rehman is i dont know will.

details of the investigations are available at the following link:

http://hsgac.senate.gov/110999_report.htm

``...During the period 1994 to1997, Citibank opened and maintained three private bank accounts in Switzerland and a consumer account in Dubai for three corporations under Mr. Zardari`s control. There are allegations that some of these accounts were used to disguise $10 million in kickbacks for a gold importing contract to Pakistan....Two deposits, totaling $10 million were made into the account almost immediately after it was opened. Citibank records show that one $5 million deposit was made on October 5,1994, and another was made on October 6, 1994...The staff invited Ms. Bhutto to provide additional information on the M.S. Capricorn Trading accounts, but she has not yet done so. ...On February 25, 1995, a third deposit of $8 million was made into the Dubai M.S. Capricorn Trading account. Records show that the payment was made through American Express, with the originator of the account listed as ``Morgan NYC.`` Citibank indicated it does not know who Morgan NYC is, nor does it know the source of the $8 million.

HP #3

`` Would someone correct me if I erroneously suggest that specifics of the defense budgets are never discussed in open congress sessions in the US too? AFAIK, this practice is followed by most countries including India, UK and France too. ``

What qualifies as a military expense ?
Subsidized land, medical care for retired military personnel
pensions for ex-servicemen
...


`` Both buy equipment in the international market.
Dollar = Indian RS 45.
Dollar = Pak Rs. 59.
That’s why the Pak percentages are higher. ``

Military equipment including spares and servicing is a fraction of the total military budgets.
Both India and Pakistan have puny procurrement budgets.

`` Nobody ever said that nuclear deterrent capability was to reduce the conventional forces. In fact, it is a downright childish argument. Unless you link the reduction of conventional forces to better relations with India and reduced tension in Kashmir, your argument would always fall flat. There is no history and not even India has reduced its conventional forces because it is nuke ready. The PPP in 1977 used this argument to promote the Nuke option in the international community and the army slammed ZAB’s head on the walls in Adialla. ``

Pakistani Army won`t reduce it size because nukes are useless against internal opponents.


romair # 7
`` I think the author may have missed the biggest financial problem, related to the Army. It is a crisis. There are now more retired Army personnel than serving. And the pension bill for the Army is larger than the salary bill now............ ``

Cut the pensions :-)

`` There is a simple solution to this:

- Cut the General Staff by 2/3rd
- Get the military out of the business sector completely
- Raise the salaries of the qualified young military officers manifold, to at least bring them, in line to some extent, with the public and private sector ``

Your solution makes military burden worse unless you reduce the standing size of the army

faisaluno #46: ``also i agree that there might be some senior army people who might be corrupt. these problems can be tackled with vigourous enforcement of laws.``

It is more than a few Generals, who are corrupt. There are a few who are corrupt at the politicians` level. But quite a few others who are corrupt; albeit at a level below the politicians` level. The second thing is that the corruption system has been legalized. Hence technically it is not viewed as corruption...........

If a person retires from PAF to PIA, after a full career, and takes the seat of a 25 year old civilian. Is it corruption? In my opinion, it is legalized corruption. He should go out in the civilian world and compete for jobs. This is small time legalized corruption.......

Somewhat larger corruption is the creation of all these Fauji industries. They are there to give jobs to retired Generals. And to create a system, where they can make money legally. What is the need for having the Army run banks, software companies, fertilizer companies, housing societies.

Can you name some other countries in the world, where serving Generals are the Chairman of the Boards of privately incorporated banks? What is the need for this?

This corruption pales in comparison to the corruption that was carried out in banks by the ruling MNAs, during the 90s. For example, Habib Bank had 11 Presidents in 10 years, during NS and BB. Each appointed the one who would give out the most corrupt loans to the ruling MNAs.

But the Army`s involvement is still a fraud. A General gets allocated a plot in Defense Housing Authority, for being a Corps Commander at dirt cheap rates. He can sell it in the evening (literally) for 1 crore ruppees. All legal...........

The military should not be allowed to place its officers in other institutions. They should have to compete for jobs, after retiring. And the military should not own, either directly or indirectly, any business venture. It should simply look after its officers and jawans, specifically junior ones, through competitive salaries............

Pakistan`s Army Generals can no longer fight. I am telling you this as first hand knowledge. I know so many of them. Every time I have met them, on my trips to Pakistan, all they talk about are plots. The Air Force ones are still OK. Luckily, Pakistan`s junior officers and sepoys and jawans are some of the best fighters in the world. This again is based on personal experience...........

romair,

i agree with you that conflict of interest is a concern with some of these organisations. also i agree that there might be some senior army people who might be corrupt. these problems can be tackled with vigourous enforcement of laws. this is not as far fetched as it sounds. recently fauji fertilizer has been involved in a tax dispute. here are the details from a research report:

FFC’s plant functioning smoothly

Morning Shout - 17 June 2005
Shagufta Irshad
sirshad@kasb.com


``...We strongly rule out rumors in the market yesterday about plant shut down at Fauji
Fertilizer on account of non-payment of property tax for its plant site....The management also highlighted the fact that any dispute with tax collecting authorities over the property tax cannot lead to suspension of work at any time as closure of FFC plant would not merely mean production losses for FFC but would also be an economic loss for the country which is currently facing urea shortage to meet requirements of the agricultural sector...``

i think if tax authorities can be empowered to move against faujis then so can s.e.c - the govt entity responsible for checking corporate abuse.

also fyi, national bank, a govt owned bank is also the house bank of govt of pak and as a result enjoys a huge advantage over other banks. pak economy in fact is one of the most freest in the world and as a result, there are very few restrictions on businessmen. as a result, mansha can own the largest textile concern and the fourth largest bank. similarly jang newspaper is allowed to run a tv channel. until recently, very few coutries permitted this.

overall, as i said before, i agree that fauji foundation`s operations need to be more transparent. i also think govt needs to make clear that its not going to bail out these foundations if they lose money. govt also needs to audit these entities very throughly every year to insure that these entities do the job for which they were set up which is to invest for the purpose of earning a decent return on the retirement saving of the personnel of armed forces. i know the situation is not perfect. however it is also no where as bad as its made out to be in the liberal press.

Ms. Zehra,

I wouldn`t hold up the example of the CCP and Mao Zedong as ``proving`` the virutes of ``Dictator for Life.`` Mao was arguably the worse thing that ever happened to China (upto and including the Opium Wars and the Japanese invasion). Read some Chinese history and find out what Mao did during the Great Leap Forward and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

Now, if you were to hold up Deng Xiaoping as ``proving`` why a lifetime job is a good thing, that is another matter!

BTW, why do so many otherwise seemingly intelligent people have this hangup about extolling the virutes of socialism? What long term good has socialism ever achieved?

Re: # 40 fais
//...if that does not prove tnt, i dont know what will...//

Looks like I touched a raw nerve with the word ``defang``!!! Mr faislano went straight down to TNT :) ...... Well - I don`t know why you feel compelled to prove TNT at the drop of the hat - but TNT is already proved many times over. So take it easy man - TNT is safe.

But this is not about TNT - this is about the criminal enterprise called paki army. Like I said ``Paki Army has to be defanged``. Of course, I can`t do it - otherwise I wouldn`t be sitting here ``flooding`` chowk, as you put it.
+++

And you said - ``pakistanis have stopped commenting on the article`` ....Well - I see Romair has ``commented`` already.

could the editors of chowk please properly credit the articles -- this first appeared in Dawn, in early June -- this is for the record

Sherry Rehman:

More power to you. I recently happen to listen to your discussions which more look like assails from regime inclined anchors to any PPP representative.

More interestingly here you are asked the same questions about party internal elections which can favor to give space and merge many parallel working bodies leadership to participate according to manifesto.
The till-death chairpersonship of BB is also a issue to be democratized, however we have examples of revolutionary leaders like Mao who served in CCP 1929-1976 carrying Marxism and fight against social imperialism which had been also the primary purpose of PPP`s establishment.

faisaluno #17: There is a difference between theory and practicality. As I stated, I know the stuff from the inside, to some extent. One could make a very good argument that the military generals are not nearly as corrupt as the politicians. I would agree with that. But that cannot be used as an excuse. Corruption - illegal or legalized - is corruption. Two wrongs don`t make a right.............

The purpose of Fauji Foundations etc. is to give jobs to retired generals. They serve no other purpose. They run quite inefficiently, by the way. Hardly any of them make money, barring a few odd companies. There are only two or three companies that keep the whole Fauji group of industries going.

Just like it is not possible for a businessman to command a corps, it is very difficult for a General to run a business. I have seen both sides, and can understand the differences.

There are huge conflicts of interests. I am in the process of opening a software office in Pakistan. It will take about another six months or so. Now, why in the world should I have to compete with Askari computers? What is the world is the Army doing in the private computer industry? How can I ever compete against them, with all the backing and funding they have?

The most profitable venture of the Army off-shoots is Askari Bank. This is what makes the money to support most of the other ventures. How does it make money? It holds the whole Army budget. Due to this, it does not have to take any risks in giving commercial loans, etc. How in the world is any other bank going to compete with it..........

All countries in the world have conflict of interest laws. People in one business cannot buy into another business. For sixty years, till 1999, the Glass Stegall Act, in the USA, forced Commerical Banks and Brokerage houses to remain separate.

Similarly in Pakistan, I believe govt. banks cannot start housing socieites. Probably because, banks could then use there leverage in handing out loans and raising the prices of their societies..........

Yet their is no restriction on the Army in getting into any kind of business!! How in the world will anyone compete with Askari computers, if it applies for a govt. contract. Take a look at the board of directors for Askari Bank (http://www.askaribank.com.pk/visionlinks.htm). The Chairman is a serving Lt. General named Waseem. The Executive Committe head is a retired Lt. Gen. named Masood. And there are four retired brigadiers on the board.

What in the world is a serving General doing heading the board of a bank? Don`t you think makes the bank a property of the Army, even if on paper, it is incorporate as a private company? How can a bank fail if it has the whole Army budget? And access to the vast military corporate empire? Askari Bank will be the last bank in Pakistan to go bankrupt. Simply because no country can let its Army go under........

Isn`t that a clear conflict of interest? This is how all these Fauji entities function. Hardly any makes money on its own. Other than the bank and a few that have almost clear monopolies in their areas.

I am all for paying military men (and women) high salaries. They risk their lives. Which is more than most of us would do for Pakistan. However, they should not be in the corporate sector. Nor should they get cushy jobs in PIA, Banks etc. on retirement. They should have to compete for those jobs...........

hahaha...mohar man, thats quite a brilliant strategy you have come up with...by flooding a website no one has heard about in pak, you will definately defang pak army...and too bad for you lot that chowk was not around a thousand years ago....otherwise imagine all the armies you would have been able to defang...and did you notice how pakistanis have stopped commenting on the article after you posted here....if that does not prove tnt, i dont know what will.

shipshape...
hehehehehe...you`r a good guy...fret not...chowk will toughen you in no time...;)

Re: # 30

We`re poifectly matched then, you in-bred and devious, we ill-bred and retarded.Cousin??.

Re # 35

Must I say it? OK, I took out first three letters.

FaisalUno, I am sorry, this is just Chowk, I should contain such silly outbursts.
Once again, I apologize profusely to you. Hope you are kind enough to accept it.

[Tere Baap ki amanat hai kya Chowk]

...correction...Chowk Tere Baap ki Jageer hai kya?

shipshape...
..what is `sadike`...??

shipshape...
he did use ``kindly``...;)

Re # 30

sadike,

Tere Baap ki amanat hai kya Chowk? Faltu dadagiri nahi chalegi, yeh Pakistan nahi hai.
Tameez say baat karna seekh.

Reading various posts, it seems normally a country has an army, whereas in Pakistan the army has a country.

Re: # 30 fais

Nah - I will stay. Democracy in pakiland will be good for people all around. The criminal enterprise called Paki Army have to be defanged .....

Also - by being a snake-pit of international terrorism - you pakis have partly lost your claim to sovereignity and your excuse for ``internal matters``. So now everybody should have a say in what goes on inside land of pure. You can blow your fuse - but there is nothing you can do about it now.

hey mohar, this is pakistan issue...retarded, ill-bred indians are not welcome here...kindly get the hell out.

This is why pakis are the way they are - ruled by tinpots. The lady wrote a good article on Paki Army`s shenanigans which is no secret. She may have got some numbers wrong - but her point is still valid. But look at how other pakis react - some accuse her as PPP stooge, some say she is didn`t do ``research`` ... some guy wants her to return ill-gotten divoce alimony.

May be all these allegations against her are true, that shouldn`t matter - pakis should overlook each other faults and be united for a greater cause and fight a greater evil, which is paki army. But no - instead, pakis just behave as pakis and shred each other. None of Ms Rehman did could be as damaging as what Paki Army has been doing all this time.

Re: # 3 The revised figures of 272 B are clearly a 40% rise int the initially allocated last year`s budget of Rs 193 B. And also it is certainly a 14 % rise as compared to the `revised`+concealed budget ` of Rs 242 B from last year. May be you got confused with the figures somewhere.
regards

I`m a little antsy over the Indo-US defence pact.


India and US sign defence accord

Mr Mukherjee and Mr Rumsfeld signed the agreement
India and US have signed a 10-year agreement to strengthen defence ties between the two countries.
The landmark agreement will help facilitate joint weapons production, co-operation on missile defence and the transfer of technology.

Indian Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee and US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld signed the agreement.

Or maybe, india is the success story of the subcontinent and we`re the only ones who have the size, clout and resources to stand up to anybody in the region.So, the US wants to get in on the action and get a piece of the indian pie.How times are a changing?

#15 by khamkhwa. on June 29, 2005 9:25pm PT


what was the rank you retired as.


His rank is captain...captain clueless...

He retired as the grand poohbah of everything under the sun.

kudos to Ms Rehman on this article..she is an excellent writer and turned into an excellent MNA...if she focuses more effort into democratising her own party she`d win even more praise ..let (s)he without sin cast the first stone etc..anyway I believe the total net worth of the Fauji assets is at the level of $1.5 billion dollars!

#3 by HP

In India defence spending is handled by Defence Accounts Dept which falls under the Ministry of Defence. DAD is solely responsible for disbursing funds, salaries and pensions, maintaining accounts and conducting audits. Officers are completely civilian though they can avail benefits of military canteens for subsidised goods. Resident officers are also provided with army quarters within cantonment or military base. I wont say that there`s no corruption or financial misappropriation within DAD but the nature of the game is entirely unlike Pakistan`s.

I totally agree with the writer. Pakistan army has destroyed every institution in the country. It has also hijacked the nation by taking self declared duty of scavenging every institution from corruption. No doubt it has taken shape of a mafia controlling not only almost all of the government institution but also many commercial ventures, while keeping itself immune from any kind of accountability or competition. In this way it is not only destroying the working structure of government sector but also depriving people of healthy competitive environment in the private commercial sector too. Every new move of the government is taking people further away from the dream of a free democratic culture. I will like to add some links that highlight the money-making activities of the army.

www.satribune.com/archives/oct7_13_02/LATIMES_story.htm
www.satribune.com/archives/sep23_29_02/P1_armylist.htm
www.msnbc.com/modules/new_battlefield/pakistan.asp
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4491541.stm
www.bm.com.np/bm/news/international.php?newsid=1838

Re: # 21

Oh!!.She`s that kind of pak woman.Well, at least she maintains her figure.Ever take a look at what we got in our parliament in India??.Frump would be a compliment, i say.The likes of Margaret Alva, Najma Heptullah,Mamta Banerjee,Sonia Gandhi,Renuka Choudhary...I rest my case.God bless them though, they`re real MP`s having won their seats through blood , sweat and tears.The only fairly decent looking woman MP in the 14th Lok Sabha is Ingrid Mcleod from Chattisgarh state.

i couldnt agree with Ms. Rehman more! However, it`s interesting to point out two facts here:
1) Ms. Rehman wouldnt be a parliamentarian had it not been for the Mush government`s ``womens` quota``.
2) Ms. Rehman`s ex-husband Bari Mian made a fortune on the submarine deal. Ms. Rehman`s divorce settlement was financed by her ex-husbands` fortune made on defence deals. If Ms. Rehman feels so strongly about shady defence deals maybe she should have returned that money to the public exchequer and put her money where her mouth is.

R.

She`s got nice legs.Pak has a parliament???.I`ll be darned.

Sherry Rehman

Welcome to Chowk.

The rest...

... While I agree with the points raised by Godot... I must disagree with the ``conclusion`` drawn by others... PPP as a political force is not opposed to several of Musharraf`s initiatives... including the women`s seats... It is opposed to Musharraf`s backtracking on several issues including the uniform issue... I don`t see a contradiction between Sherry`s criticism of Musharraf and her membership of the parliament. An objection on this count is akin to saying South Asians shouldn`t have joined the legislatures under the British rule....

The real contradiction is in MMA`s stance which is opposed to women`s seats but still occupies them.

-YLH

re: godot # 9

Bravo! I second your questions to Sherry Rehman, and I too, would like an answer.

re: romair # 14

Excellent points; the hypocritical nature of Pakistani politicans is unbelievable.

Ciao

romair has raised some valid points. here is my response:

1. there is a big difference between (a) armed forces retirement/welfare fund running companies and (b) the army running those businesses directly. (b) is a strict no-no and cannot be justified in any situation and is not the case in pak. (a) is however a perfectly legitimate activity and other large public institutions such as wapda and railways should be encouraged to adapt this model to mange retirement benefits for their employees. the caveat to this should be that companies controlled by welfare funds should not receive any special treatment from the government. i do think that there have been instances this principal has been violated in pak but that is to be expected given our society. i also think welfare fund needs to maintain an arms length relationship with the army which is not the case right now. problem however is not as serious as it is made out to be by politicians and liberal press. btw, public pension funds such as calpers are huge players in the u.s. financial markets

2. businesses controlled by retired army officers such as fauji fertilizer operate far more efficiently than public sector entities whose workforce is populated with flunkies of politicians. entities in the second category include, wapda, pia and steel mills. subsidy to institutions eats up huge chunks of the pakistan budget. restructuring of these entities will free up huge amount of money from the budget besides improving the quality of services for the awam.

3. the reason for rapid growth of army related entities was that bhutto’s nationalization created a huge vacuum. businessmen obviously refused to put up investments after the theft of their property and fauji foundation was able to benefit from this vacuum. fauji foundation should not be penalized for the wrong decision of politicians.

overall, i think its in the army’s interest to make its welfare operations as transparent as possible. i think army is moving along those lines.

as JS Mill said, `a benign dictatorship is worse than a brutal one`.

today we can clearly see why. when there exists a fantastic disconnect between the social, economic and political, it reflects the collapse of civil society. and thus reinforces the fact that this country is a failed state.

[I know them from the inside. And I can tell you its all a big fraud, with huge conflicts of interests.............]

... only senior staff officers are privy to the shenanigans in the forces...what was the rank you retired as...lt. general, major general, brigadier, colonel, lt. colonel, major or was it the lowly captain...

Stuka #10: ``Is the author someone famous?``

Sherry Rahman was the editor of Pakistan`s most famous English monthly, called Herald. When Musharraf created reserved seats for women, in the Assembly, she got in on a PPP ticket. Now she argues for women`s rights etc. Which is a good thing. As is getting the Army`s business concerns out in the open. All these businesses should be privatized.......I know them from the inside. And I can tell you its all a big fraud, with huge conflicts of interests.............

Having said that, she faces the same dilema, which so many urban PPPliyas face. She is in a party, which is led by the most regressive feudals. Amin Fahim the head of her party, has four sisters married to the Quran. Benazir and Zardari, the exiled heads, have been convicted of corruption in Switzerland and face a six month jail sentence. And her party has a lifetime chairperson, and thus never holds elections...........

Everytime she comes on TV, pushing her agenda (much of which is good), she is faced with the above comments. And like most PPPliyas has no answer...............Not to mention, that she, herself, would not be in the assembly, had Musharraf not created so many reserved seats for women. Yet she is his big critic (quite ironic)............

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/pakistan/f.html

#10

she`s a member of the Pak Legislature (ha ha). She was one of the early visitors on the Lahore Delhi bus (mushy boy likes to push the pretty faces out to prove his ``en mo``)

actually, this might be an unfair comparison to fox news given the success it has achieved but the similarities between fox news and chowk are remarkable. both entities claim to have no specific agenda. both entities exist to push lies to lend credibility to their agenda.

the lies mentioned in the article above can be uncovered by anyone who has access to a broadband connection, excel spreadsheet and twenty minutes of free time.

details of fauji foundation`s operations can be found on the entity`s website:

http://www.fauji.org.pk/

here are some lies mentioned in the article are as follows:

1. the author says military`s foundations ``pay no direct taxes on their corporate activities``.
fauji fertilizer (ffc) is a core holding of fauji foundation. financials of fauji fertilizer shows that it tax expense amounted to 37% of its pre tax income in 2004. here is the link to the financials:

http://www.ffc.com.pk/contents/annualrep.htm

details of taxes paid by other commercial army linked entities (ALE) such as askari bank can be verified from their websites. also according to information on fauji`s website, ``The Foundation and its associated companies paid PKR 24 billion in taxes/ duties to the Government during the year 2004.``

2. author says that fauji related entities operate in a monopoly environment. this claim is absolutely hilarious. there is no sector where an ALE has a monopoly and fertilizer is the only sector where an ALE has dominant market share. foundation`s fertilizer companies however are publicly listed and traded and its operations are subjected to the same degree of scrutiny as other publicly listed companies. btw ffc trades at a dividend yield of around 9% and is an absolute investment steal in my opinion.

3. author insinuates that army linked entities survive due to subsidized operations. according to investment analyst, fauji fertilizer has the most efficient operations in the country. i can post those research reports if requested.

4. author claims that there is a ``creeping militarization of the mainstream economy``. actually the only thing ``creeping`` in the pak is arab control of the economy. arabs now completely control the telephone sector (land and mobile), and have huge stakes in the refining and banking sector. also in terms of influence, mansha is the dominant businessman in pak. his influence far outstrips that exercised by the army. mansha controls the largest textile concern (nishat) and the biggest insurance company (adamjee) and the fourth biggest bank (mcb). its widely known in pak that mansha business fortune got a boost because of his relationship with the sharifs.

waisay i am not surprised to see sherry rehman resorting to such lies. she does after all represent a party controlled by a murderer. one of my best friend`s khaloo was appointed the head of steel mills by zardari. in return, he funnled huge amount of cash to zardari. when n.s. came to power, he had my friend`s khaloo arrested who then agreed to sing against zardari. before the case could go to court, zaradri had the guy murdered. here is the reference to the murder. before the murder, zardari`s goon had been threatening murder to my friend`s family:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:7ExQBqZl1LUJ:www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp%3Fpage%3Dstory_6-8-2003_pg7_46+pakistan+steel+murder+zardari&hl=en

Asif Zardari indicted for murder

KARACHI: South Additional District and Session Judge (ADSJ) Abrar Hussain Memon on Tuesday formally indicted Asif Ali Zardari, accused in the murder case of former Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM) chairman Sajjad Hussain.

Mr Hussain was shot dead in September 1997 by unidentified gunmen and a case against unknown attackers was registered. The former chairman was accused of corruption in the PSM and was being investigated by Ehtesab Bureau officials. Mr Zardari was booked after an alleged confessional statement by Muhammed Khan Chachar, on death row for some other case in the Punjab. Mr Chachar allegedly told investigators that Mr Hussain was assassinated at the behest of Mr Zardari.

Is the author someone famous?

Dear Ms Rehman:

You’re brilliant writer and I’ve admired your writing for a long time. It’s so good to see you at Chowk.

However, I do have a question for you before you call the kettle black...

Why your party, the PPP, does not hold inter-party elections, something like the “primary” elections in the US where candidates compete and the voters decide which candidate they would like their party to represent as a leader of the country? Would not that process start a debate on critical issues facing Pakistan and set a standard? Would not that process throw up fresh candidates and force them to come out clean? Is that not a “true” democracy when an individual is not the Party itself? Would it not make the Party outlast the candidates? Would it not give the Party an ideology and a platform to stand on firmly and convincingly?

If you interacted at Chowk to answer questions, you’d prove that the PPP is a true “People’s Party” and that you are a politician of integrity, honesty and principle. Is it and are you?

#7 by Romair on June 29, 2005 5:30pm PT


At the same time, there are people in their mid-40s who have gone onto become entry level pilots, because the military placed them there!! Which airline of the world hires entry level pilots in their mid-40s, when there are so many available, in their 20s, who are qualified?

When I retired, I seriously thought of joining PIA.


Well they hired NHK after he got out of the PAF....and he`s a real fighter jock, not a grease monkey like you...If you`re picking things they do wrong, that`s probably the worst example.

In any case, Pakistan`s loss(gain) is Canuckistan`s gain(loss?)....I`m sure the canuckistanis need your fantastic IT business skills more than the PIA needs pilots...after all, the PIA already had(or had) people like NHK...what does canuckistan have?

The more I research into the Pakistan military (read Army`s) business holdings, the more amazing it gets. They are truly unbelievable. Pakistani generals must be amongst the richest in the world. Perhaps I should have stayed in the military!!

Someday, time permitting, I will try to write about it. People`s jaws will drop, when they find out how much, and how quickly these guys make money. People have made close to a crore ruppees in a day (seriously speaking). Other(s) have gotten plots allocated in green areas and forced banks to finance them..........

Then there is another racket, where every retired guy ends up in PIA, or PIDC, or CAA or somewhere, simply through military placement. Even when they are not needed and someone else can do the same job. When I retired, I seriously thought of joining PIA. I had the licenses, the degrees and the age. But did not have the contacts. At the same time, there are people in their mid-40s who have gone onto become entry level pilots, because the military placed them there!! Which airline of the world hires entry level pilots in their mid-40s, when there are so many available, in their 20s, who are qualified?

Nearly every organization run by the Army is in a loss. I have it from the horse`s mouth. There are only one or two that keep the whole Fauji foundation running. There are unbelievable hostile take-overs of privately owned companies, through arm-twisting.

The PAF`s Shaheen Foundation just got into the call-center busines. While the Army recently got into the software business. Now why are these business set-up. If the Army needs an organization to run its computer systems, why doesn`t it just form a group, inside the Army, under Signals? Becuase it needs to employ retired Generals and their kids in civilian companies...........

Quite a few of the expats on Chowk have dads who were in the Army. Including quite a few, who now criticize it.............

The big saving grace of the Pakistan military is that all of the above is limited to Brigadiers and above. Lt. Cols. and below are still fighting for flag and country, at meagre salaries, in the boondocks of Pakistan, against much much larger armies. People of these ranks, and specifically the jawans, retire as paupers, in many cases..........

I think the author may have missed the biggest financial problem, related to the Army. It is a crisis. There are now more retired Army personnel than serving. And the pension bill for the Army is larger than the salary bill now............

There is a simple solution to this:

- Cut the General Staff by 2/3rd
- Get the military out of the business sector completely
- Raise the salaries of the qualified young military officers manifold, to at least bring them, in line to some extent, with the public and private sector

Stuka,

I am not comparing budgets. All I am pointing out that she should have researched this piece instead of writing childish stuff.


I know what the Pak army is doing and people who oppose the army w/o the accurate knowledge actually end up helping the army.

The army in Pakistan has developed its own interests and it will protect them no matter what.

Bombing the tribals in the NWFP and dropping bombs on the baloch isn`t cheap?

who`da thunk?

HP:

The Indian defence budget includes pensions which is actually one of the higher components. Also, the Armed Forces in India do not have commercial interests outside the miniscule Army Wives Welfare Association etc which handles things like melas etc.

Would someone correct me if I erroneously suggest that specifics of the defense budgets are never discussed in open congress sessions in the US too? AFAIK, this practice is followed by most countries including India, UK and France too.

I have heard her name before I doubt that I have ever read her but from her intro it appears that she has a track record of a respected journalist then why she did not do her math. A 4-percentage increase in the defense budget clearly shows the rate of inflation and yearly increases in the army personal salaries. So in real term there is no increase in the defense budge from the last year.
So here is my math:
Current Budget 223 B
Last years budget 193 B
Another 23 B per revised estimate so the total last year’s budget was 216 B. The current budget is only 7 billion more which is about <4% increase over the last year. What is the problem then? Inflation in Pakistan is approx 10% so we may see another revised estimate to cover for the inflation.

“The second question being asked is why Pakistan now needs a huge defence budget that is close to four per cent of its GDP, when India is spending 2.8 per cent?”

I am amazed at people who make such wild claims.
Pak spending 4%
India spending 2.8%

Both buy equipment in the international market.
Dollar = Indian RS 45.
Dollar = Pak Rs. 59.
That’s why the Pak percentages are higher.

“The question of maintaining the eighth largest standing army in the world, when huge undisclosed amounts on the nuclear option are disbursed, becomes critical, for the simple reason that the nuclear deterrent capability was meant to substantially reduce the need for such a large conventional force.”

Nobody ever said that nuclear deterrent capability was to reduce the conventional forces. In fact, it is a downright childish argument. Unless you link the reduction of conventional forces to better relations with India and reduced tension in Kashmir, your argument would always fall flat. There is no history and not even India has reduced its conventional forces because it is nuke ready. The PPP in 1977 used this argument to promote the Nuke option in the international community and the army slammed ZAB’s head on the walls in Adialla.

Here is the problem with Pakistan Journos, first they don’t research any thing then they write wild things in their articles thus opening themselves up for ridicule. Finally, the politico journalists like Sherry Rehman write about the military budgets when their own party is not in power. I bet that Ms. Rehman would not have bothered to write this much if the PPP was in power.
Charlatans!

A quarter of the budget?.That`s a lot of moola.However, in light of terrorists and inflamatory mullahs lurking in pakistan, not including the need to step in if sectarian violence gets out of hand, it is imperative to maintain a large armed force to maintain order or act as a deterrent.A necessary cost for pakistan.The citizenry has no choice but to grin and bear it.

sherry:

nice to see you here and welcome to chowk:)

this is the crux of the matter Despite defence absorbing more than a quarter of the national wealth, the subject, unlike debt servicing, has become inured from public debate and exempt from any parliamentary accountability.

the militray is not only the gods, it is also the prophets and the companions to boot!

t

ps: please continue your jehad against the hudood ordinance