A Changed Landscape of Kashmir Conflict

Re: # 36

Who `let` you out??.....

Who let the dogs out woo-hoo-hoo-hoo.

Re: # 33

The terrorists who attacked Ayodhya were not indian muslims.They are suspected to be from the Lakshar.They look no different from the local muslim or hindu population and there was nothing amiss in them asking to see tourist places in Ayodhya.Tourists from all over India visit that city.It is time the UPA govt. clamped down on kashmir, expel all paks from the country and fortify the fence along the border.Recently , there has been a spate of sectatian killings in Pakistan, while india has been quiet in contrast.The paks had to do something to stir things up.The parliament attack in Delhi was another example.It is time to crack down.Good fences make good neighbors.

#32 by ranjit

[However, it is time that India exercises its muscle in the subcontinent and gets a favorable resolution on Kashmir and settles the communal issue once and for all.]

For that matter even Israel, a country that has been very proactive in dealing with Palestinian terrorists has been unable to free itself of the terrorist menace. Not a month goes by without a suicide bombing or two. Might does not always make right, especially when you are dealing with your own.

I agree with you that India must deal with Paki-sponsored terrorism with an iron hand, but to hold Indian Muslims hostage to what Pakistan does is utter nonsense and fraught with dangerous consequences.

#33 by ranjit

[Just saw the news that heavily armed jehadis stormed the Ayodhya Ram Mandir. I wonder if harish, arjun, stuka, rahul and other ``secular`` folks would like to comment!!]

I’m all with you if you’re advocating a no-nonsense approach when dealing with Paki-sponsored terrorism. This looks like the handiwork of the LeT, and India just cannot watch idly as Hafiz Mohammed Sayeed, the LeT supremo continues to make inflammatory speeches against Hindus and India.

Also, I feel the peace process is just a superficial attempt to win international acclaim, which will help Mushy legitimize his rule and prove his indispensability to the Americans. The litmus test for Pakistan would be to discredit terrorist groups like the LeT and JeM, and hand over Syed Salahuddin of the HuM.

As to your branding IMs as traitors, what would you call the Tamils (mind you I’m a Tamilian) who sheltered the mastermind behind Rajiv Gandhi’s assassination? Or the Sikhs who assassinated Indira Gandhi?

Just saw the news that heavily armed jehadis stormed the Ayodhya Ram Mandir. I wonder if harish, arjun, stuka, rahul and other ``secular`` folks would like to comment!! Indian muslims are part of India, they do not support jihad.....how delusional can we get!!

Re:rahul_capri and arjun_m

Solving the communal problem will not resolve every problem that India faces e.g. ULFA. However, it is time that India exercises its muscle in the subcontinent and gets a favorable resolution on Kashmir and settles the communal issue once and for all. If there is full, unconditional peace with Pakistan with no territory transfer and normal relations, then the communal chapter can be closed and we can move on.

It is humiliating to see a great country like India demean itself by grovelling in front of Pakistan to halt terrorism. We know that they harbor the jehadis and the terror infrastructure is functional in PoK. Even now we see repeated attempts at infiltration along the LoC, while Syed Salahuddin, the Hizbul chief gives interviews on PTV. No other country of India`s size and power would tolerate this kind of nonsense from a small neighbor, especially when we control their water supply and have overwhelming military superiority. Any other country would have gone for the jugular, after the first soldier was killed. We are still negotiating after losing tens of thousands.

``Secondly if nothing else works, India can hold the 100 million plus IMs as hostage. If you kill Indians in Kashmir, we will retaliate by killing muslims in rest of India in a 1:10 ratio.``

This is utter non-sense and a representative of the chaddiwalas mentality.............typical stereotyping of all the muslims by overemphasizing the acts of the perverse extremists who probably were brainwashed and lured with money by the ISI handlers..............this retaliation theory is actually the basis of the communal approach which has been exhibited succinctly by rascals like hindvi...........and now Ranjit..............

re: googenschlaugen # 26

One of the best ever on the subject of Kashmir.

When parties begin to discuss their real concerns, as opposed to their stated ones, solutions will come.

I have always maintained a very neutral stance on the issue of kashmir. My paucity of knowledge on this matter stands as the primary culprit for this unbiased attitude. I have dabbled into some historical perspective about the issue, and in doing so, i stumbled onto the background over which India and Pakistan fought three wars in the past. I would particularly like to draw attention to the war that occured in 1971, since it was a civil war, when the Pak military junta, in collusion with a few west pakistani politicians, unleashed its army against its own people and ended up losing the eastern wing of the country. To me it`s surprising how Pakistan`s military elites could have managed to remain in power for such a long time after such a colossal blunder in 1971.
The question i have for the educated people in pakistan is that, if you let your own military carve up your own country into two, and with the recent violence in baluchistan, what makes you think the muslims, let alone the Hindus, in kashmir would want to be a part of Pakistan? Do you really care about the kashmiri cause or is the ``real estate`` you are interested in?
On a side note, I dont blame India for the role it played against Pakistan since 1947. If you wanna dance with the devil (indian govt., not the people), like Yahya and Bhutto did in 1971, the devil dont change. The devil changes you.

# various by Ranjit and Mike (gujju)

Yaar, the type of solutions you both seem to be advocating makes the Jihadis next door look like kindergarten kids. Indian Muslims are as much Indian as you and I are. Some IMs may be traitors, but so are some Indian Hindus too.

We may have many grievances with them, as they do with us, but what I`m really proud of is the fact that not a single IM has been involved in international terrorism. India`s democratic polity may be flawed, but it has provided space for everyone of us Hindu or Muslim alike. We should be proud of this fact and work to make it stronger. Such divisive and hateful ideas do no one any good.

Ranjit, what do you say about the ULFA separatists? These problems aint similar, but want to make the point that you cant view everything from the lenses of religion. There are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.If all of them really wanted jihad, just imagine how long we can keep Kashmir or any other part of India in India. Also, the only Al Qaeda recruitee I know of from India is a person who was born Hindu, and then converted to Islam.Some Dheeraj Barot.
You do realize that you are not convincing anybody.I think it would be better for you to move to the hindu country called Nepal if you are so concerned about your Hinduism.

Farooq Bhai,
You are a brave man to raise the Kashmir issue again. I have thought about this, debated with both Indians and Pakis about this, and have finally come to the following conclusion:

Pakistan`s position of ``give us Kashmir, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, it`s a Muslim majority area and therefore belongs to Pakiland`` has rapidly deteriorated into utter nonsense.

Let`s see why?

India is not going to give Kashmir to Pakiland, just because Pakistan insists that it happen. Pakistan wanted Junagadh and Manavadar at one time and considered Hyderabad a disputed area also. I think we all agree that both Junagadh and Manavadar issues have long been settled, thanks to Pakiland finally forgetting about the impossible claims. Hyderabad never attained the level of a claim, and everyone agrees that Hyderabad is firmly in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, both integral parts of India.

Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, although the UN resolution demanded it, is not going to happen. UN resolutions, like old fish, tend to get smelly and disposable. There never was a plebiscite for the 1947 partition. The Muslim League winning majorities in Muslim majority provinces was not a blank check for partition. Also, one could argue that Indian Kashmir has had several elections, there have been elected Muslim Chief Ministers, and elected Muslim representatives more often than in Pakiland over the last 58 years.

Yes, Kashmir is a Muslim majority area and so are Sinkiang, Nazareth, Muradabad, maybe Bhopal, and even Hyderabad, and possibly parts of Southall, Jackson Heights, Mississuaga, and Chicago. A Muslim majority does not necessarily mean that all the people living there need to become citizens of a Pakiland or equivalent. By the way, Bangladesh is also an overwhelmingly Muslim area. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world and Indian Muslims appear to get along with each other much better than their coreligionists in Pakiland. That ought to be good for some points, at least.

Enough time and energy has been wasted in trying to make every excuse in the world to get Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan. If Pakis were more honest, they would say simply that Kashmir is necessary because almost all of Pakiland`s water resources pass through it. Perhaps, if Pakiland agreed to the LoC as the border, then India could provide guarantees for Pakis` liquid concerns.

Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Farooq Bhai,
You are a brave man to raise the Kashmir issue again. I have thought about this, debated with both Indians and Pakis about this, and have finally come to the following conclusion:

Pakistan`s position of ``give us Kashmir, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, it`s a Muslim majority area and therefore belongs to Pakiland`` has rapidly deteriorated into utter nonsense.

Let`s see why?

India is not going to give Kashmir to Pakiland, just because Pakistan insists that it happen. Pakistan wanted Junagadh and Manavadar at one time and considered Hyderabad a disputed area also. I think we all agree that both Junagadh and Manavadar issues have long been settled, thanks to Pakiland finally forgetting about the impossible claims. Hyderabad never attained the level of a claim, and everyone agrees that Hyderabad is firmly in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, both integral parts of India.

Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, although the UN resolution demanded it, is not going to happen. UN resolutions, like old fish, tend to get smelly and disposable. There never was a plebiscite for the 1947 partition. The Muslim League winning majorities in Muslim majority provinces was not a blank check for partition. Also, one could argue that Indian Kashmir has had several elections, there have been elected Muslim Chief Ministers, and elected Muslim representatives more often than in Pakiland over the last 58 years.

Yes, Kashmir is a Muslim majority area and so are Sinkiang, Nazareth, Muradabad, maybe Bhopal, and even Hyderabad, and possibly parts of Southall, Jackson Heights, Mississuaga, and Chicago. A Muslim majority does not necessarily mean that all the people living there need to become citizens of a Pakiland or equivalent. By the way, Bangladesh is also an overwhelmingly Muslim area. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world and Indian Muslims appear to get along with each other much better than their coreligionists in Pakiland. That ought to be good for some points, at least.

Enough time and energy has been wasted in trying to make every excuse in the world to get Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan. If Pakis were more honest, they would say simply that Kashmir is necessary because almost all of Pakiland`s water resources pass through it. Perhaps, if Pakiland agreed to the LoC as the border, then India could provide guarantees for Pakis` liquid concerns.

Salim Ahmed Chauhan

#23 by ranjit on July 4, 2005 4:48pm PT

You`ve got how many people that agree with your point of view...11? The last time I checked, India was a democracy....So just as Indian Kashmir stays with India as long as a majority of Indians say it does, your solutions are just your solutions as long as a majority of people don`t agree with you...good luck trying to convince them...i suspect the pakis have a better chance of concinving a majority of Indians to hand over Indian Kashmir than you do of convincing a majority of people to go along with your solution.......

Re:stuka#21

The solutions are Naziesque because the problem is Naziesque. How do you deal with a religion that actively propagates hatred against you and that religion provides the central and only source of wisdom for its followers? We hindus keep deluding ourselves that Islam is just like any other religion and muslims are basically all ``misunderstood``, ``discrimnated`` people who are yearning for freedom. That is patently false, given that muslims ruled the subcontinent for hundreds of years and then partitioned it themselves at a huge human cost. Even after that for 60 years, we have faced non-stop hostility, terrorism in Punjab, terrorism in Kashmir, you name it. Within Pakistan, there is no trace of democracy or freedom.

We hindus have tried to play nice for centuries, created a secular system, given immense liberties to Kashmir and have repeatedly tried to make peace and reach an understanding. Still, you see non-stop violence, non-stop jihad and a relentless demand for more territory. When do you admit that the opposition is a fascistic force hell bent on our eventual destruction? If we dont recognize the problem, we can never solve it.

#15 by ranjit on July 4, 2005 3:38pm PT


Keeping aside foul language, how about debating the facts? Every day in Kashmir, 10-15 people get killed. Recently school children were killed in a bomb blast.


Umm....most of the people and children killed are muslim...(if not all)..