A Changed Landscape of Kashmir Conflict
S F Hasnat July 4, 2005
#27 Posted by rahul_capri on July 4, 2005 7:01:56 pm
Ranjit, what do you say about the ULFA separatists? These problems aint similar, but want to make the point that you cant view everything from the lenses of religion. There are more muslims in India than in Pakistan.If all of them really wanted jihad, just imagine how long we can keep Kashmir or any other part of India in India. Also, the only Al Qaeda recruitee I know of from India is a person who was born Hindu, and then converted to Islam.Some Dheeraj Barot.
You do realize that you are not convincing anybody.I think it would be better for you to move to the hindu country called Nepal if you are so concerned about your Hinduism.
You do realize that you are not convincing anybody.I think it would be better for you to move to the hindu country called Nepal if you are so concerned about your Hinduism.
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#26 Posted by googenschlaugen on July 4, 2005 5:25:12 pm
Farooq Bhai,
You are a brave man to raise the Kashmir issue again. I have thought about this, debated with both Indians and Pakis about this, and have finally come to the following conclusion:
Pakistan`s position of ``give us Kashmir, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, it`s a Muslim majority area and therefore belongs to Pakiland`` has rapidly deteriorated into utter nonsense.
Let`s see why?
India is not going to give Kashmir to Pakiland, just because Pakistan insists that it happen. Pakistan wanted Junagadh and Manavadar at one time and considered Hyderabad a disputed area also. I think we all agree that both Junagadh and Manavadar issues have long been settled, thanks to Pakiland finally forgetting about the impossible claims. Hyderabad never attained the level of a claim, and everyone agrees that Hyderabad is firmly in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, both integral parts of India.
Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, although the UN resolution demanded it, is not going to happen. UN resolutions, like old fish, tend to get smelly and disposable. There never was a plebiscite for the 1947 partition. The Muslim League winning majorities in Muslim majority provinces was not a blank check for partition. Also, one could argue that Indian Kashmir has had several elections, there have been elected Muslim Chief Ministers, and elected Muslim representatives more often than in Pakiland over the last 58 years.
Yes, Kashmir is a Muslim majority area and so are Sinkiang, Nazareth, Muradabad, maybe Bhopal, and even Hyderabad, and possibly parts of Southall, Jackson Heights, Mississuaga, and Chicago. A Muslim majority does not necessarily mean that all the people living there need to become citizens of a Pakiland or equivalent. By the way, Bangladesh is also an overwhelmingly Muslim area. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world and Indian Muslims appear to get along with each other much better than their coreligionists in Pakiland. That ought to be good for some points, at least.
Enough time and energy has been wasted in trying to make every excuse in the world to get Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan. If Pakis were more honest, they would say simply that Kashmir is necessary because almost all of Pakiland`s water resources pass through it. Perhaps, if Pakiland agreed to the LoC as the border, then India could provide guarantees for Pakis` liquid concerns.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan
You are a brave man to raise the Kashmir issue again. I have thought about this, debated with both Indians and Pakis about this, and have finally come to the following conclusion:
Pakistan`s position of ``give us Kashmir, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, it`s a Muslim majority area and therefore belongs to Pakiland`` has rapidly deteriorated into utter nonsense.
Let`s see why?
India is not going to give Kashmir to Pakiland, just because Pakistan insists that it happen. Pakistan wanted Junagadh and Manavadar at one time and considered Hyderabad a disputed area also. I think we all agree that both Junagadh and Manavadar issues have long been settled, thanks to Pakiland finally forgetting about the impossible claims. Hyderabad never attained the level of a claim, and everyone agrees that Hyderabad is firmly in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, both integral parts of India.
Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, although the UN resolution demanded it, is not going to happen. UN resolutions, like old fish, tend to get smelly and disposable. There never was a plebiscite for the 1947 partition. The Muslim League winning majorities in Muslim majority provinces was not a blank check for partition. Also, one could argue that Indian Kashmir has had several elections, there have been elected Muslim Chief Ministers, and elected Muslim representatives more often than in Pakiland over the last 58 years.
Yes, Kashmir is a Muslim majority area and so are Sinkiang, Nazareth, Muradabad, maybe Bhopal, and even Hyderabad, and possibly parts of Southall, Jackson Heights, Mississuaga, and Chicago. A Muslim majority does not necessarily mean that all the people living there need to become citizens of a Pakiland or equivalent. By the way, Bangladesh is also an overwhelmingly Muslim area. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world and Indian Muslims appear to get along with each other much better than their coreligionists in Pakiland. That ought to be good for some points, at least.
Enough time and energy has been wasted in trying to make every excuse in the world to get Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan. If Pakis were more honest, they would say simply that Kashmir is necessary because almost all of Pakiland`s water resources pass through it. Perhaps, if Pakiland agreed to the LoC as the border, then India could provide guarantees for Pakis` liquid concerns.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan
#25 Posted by googenschlaugen on July 4, 2005 5:24:25 pm
Farooq Bhai,
You are a brave man to raise the Kashmir issue again. I have thought about this, debated with both Indians and Pakis about this, and have finally come to the following conclusion:
Pakistan`s position of ``give us Kashmir, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, it`s a Muslim majority area and therefore belongs to Pakiland`` has rapidly deteriorated into utter nonsense.
Let`s see why?
India is not going to give Kashmir to Pakiland, just because Pakistan insists that it happen. Pakistan wanted Junagadh and Manavadar at one time and considered Hyderabad a disputed area also. I think we all agree that both Junagadh and Manavadar issues have long been settled, thanks to Pakiland finally forgetting about the impossible claims. Hyderabad never attained the level of a claim, and everyone agrees that Hyderabad is firmly in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, both integral parts of India.
Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, although the UN resolution demanded it, is not going to happen. UN resolutions, like old fish, tend to get smelly and disposable. There never was a plebiscite for the 1947 partition. The Muslim League winning majorities in Muslim majority provinces was not a blank check for partition. Also, one could argue that Indian Kashmir has had several elections, there have been elected Muslim Chief Ministers, and elected Muslim representatives more often than in Pakiland over the last 58 years.
Yes, Kashmir is a Muslim majority area and so are Sinkiang, Nazareth, Muradabad, maybe Bhopal, and even Hyderabad, and possibly parts of Southall, Jackson Heights, Mississuaga, and Chicago. A Muslim majority does not necessarily mean that all the people living there need to become citizens of a Pakiland or equivalent. By the way, Bangladesh is also an overwhelmingly Muslim area. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world and Indian Muslims appear to get along with each other much better than their coreligionists in Pakiland. That ought to be good for some points, at least.
Enough time and energy has been wasted in trying to make every excuse in the world to get Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan. If Pakis were more honest, they would say simply that Kashmir is necessary because almost all of Pakiland`s water resources pass through it. Perhaps, if Pakiland agreed to the LoC as the border, then India could provide guarantees for Pakis` liquid concerns.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan
You are a brave man to raise the Kashmir issue again. I have thought about this, debated with both Indians and Pakis about this, and have finally come to the following conclusion:
Pakistan`s position of ``give us Kashmir, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, it`s a Muslim majority area and therefore belongs to Pakiland`` has rapidly deteriorated into utter nonsense.
Let`s see why?
India is not going to give Kashmir to Pakiland, just because Pakistan insists that it happen. Pakistan wanted Junagadh and Manavadar at one time and considered Hyderabad a disputed area also. I think we all agree that both Junagadh and Manavadar issues have long been settled, thanks to Pakiland finally forgetting about the impossible claims. Hyderabad never attained the level of a claim, and everyone agrees that Hyderabad is firmly in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra, both integral parts of India.
Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir, although the UN resolution demanded it, is not going to happen. UN resolutions, like old fish, tend to get smelly and disposable. There never was a plebiscite for the 1947 partition. The Muslim League winning majorities in Muslim majority provinces was not a blank check for partition. Also, one could argue that Indian Kashmir has had several elections, there have been elected Muslim Chief Ministers, and elected Muslim representatives more often than in Pakiland over the last 58 years.
Yes, Kashmir is a Muslim majority area and so are Sinkiang, Nazareth, Muradabad, maybe Bhopal, and even Hyderabad, and possibly parts of Southall, Jackson Heights, Mississuaga, and Chicago. A Muslim majority does not necessarily mean that all the people living there need to become citizens of a Pakiland or equivalent. By the way, Bangladesh is also an overwhelmingly Muslim area. India has the second largest Muslim population in the world and Indian Muslims appear to get along with each other much better than their coreligionists in Pakiland. That ought to be good for some points, at least.
Enough time and energy has been wasted in trying to make every excuse in the world to get Kashmir to become a part of Pakistan. If Pakis were more honest, they would say simply that Kashmir is necessary because almost all of Pakiland`s water resources pass through it. Perhaps, if Pakiland agreed to the LoC as the border, then India could provide guarantees for Pakis` liquid concerns.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan
#24 Posted by arjun_m on July 4, 2005 5:01:50 pm
#23 by ranjit on July 4, 2005 4:48pm PT
You`ve got how many people that agree with your point of view...11? The last time I checked, India was a democracy....So just as Indian Kashmir stays with India as long as a majority of Indians say it does, your solutions are just your solutions as long as a majority of people don`t agree with you...good luck trying to convince them...i suspect the pakis have a better chance of concinving a majority of Indians to hand over Indian Kashmir than you do of convincing a majority of people to go along with your solution.......
You`ve got how many people that agree with your point of view...11? The last time I checked, India was a democracy....So just as Indian Kashmir stays with India as long as a majority of Indians say it does, your solutions are just your solutions as long as a majority of people don`t agree with you...good luck trying to convince them...i suspect the pakis have a better chance of concinving a majority of Indians to hand over Indian Kashmir than you do of convincing a majority of people to go along with your solution.......
#23 Posted by Ranjit on July 4, 2005 4:48:14 pm
Re:stuka#21
The solutions are Naziesque because the problem is Naziesque. How do you deal with a religion that actively propagates hatred against you and that religion provides the central and only source of wisdom for its followers? We hindus keep deluding ourselves that Islam is just like any other religion and muslims are basically all ``misunderstood``, ``discrimnated`` people who are yearning for freedom. That is patently false, given that muslims ruled the subcontinent for hundreds of years and then partitioned it themselves at a huge human cost. Even after that for 60 years, we have faced non-stop hostility, terrorism in Punjab, terrorism in Kashmir, you name it. Within Pakistan, there is no trace of democracy or freedom.
We hindus have tried to play nice for centuries, created a secular system, given immense liberties to Kashmir and have repeatedly tried to make peace and reach an understanding. Still, you see non-stop violence, non-stop jihad and a relentless demand for more territory. When do you admit that the opposition is a fascistic force hell bent on our eventual destruction? If we dont recognize the problem, we can never solve it.
The solutions are Naziesque because the problem is Naziesque. How do you deal with a religion that actively propagates hatred against you and that religion provides the central and only source of wisdom for its followers? We hindus keep deluding ourselves that Islam is just like any other religion and muslims are basically all ``misunderstood``, ``discrimnated`` people who are yearning for freedom. That is patently false, given that muslims ruled the subcontinent for hundreds of years and then partitioned it themselves at a huge human cost. Even after that for 60 years, we have faced non-stop hostility, terrorism in Punjab, terrorism in Kashmir, you name it. Within Pakistan, there is no trace of democracy or freedom.
We hindus have tried to play nice for centuries, created a secular system, given immense liberties to Kashmir and have repeatedly tried to make peace and reach an understanding. Still, you see non-stop violence, non-stop jihad and a relentless demand for more territory. When do you admit that the opposition is a fascistic force hell bent on our eventual destruction? If we dont recognize the problem, we can never solve it.
#22 Posted by arjun_m on July 4, 2005 4:37:45 pm
#15 by ranjit on July 4, 2005 3:38pm PT
Keeping aside foul language, how about debating the facts? Every day in Kashmir, 10-15 people get killed. Recently school children were killed in a bomb blast.
Umm....most of the people and children killed are muslim...(if not all)..
Keeping aside foul language, how about debating the facts? Every day in Kashmir, 10-15 people get killed. Recently school children were killed in a bomb blast.
Umm....most of the people and children killed are muslim...(if not all)..
#21 Posted by stuka on July 4, 2005 4:34:23 pm
Ranjit:
I have no problem debating the ``facts``. My problem is with the screwed up Naziesque solutions you come up with.
I have no problem debating the ``facts``. My problem is with the screwed up Naziesque solutions you come up with.
#20 Posted by bongdongs on July 4, 2005 4:29:16 pm
#15
And going by the standards of your ilk, your ``hostage`` or ``target`` will be the poorest and weakest person you can find, a powerloom operator in Bhiwandi maybe.
Lets see you take on Dawood`s patrons in Maharashtra goverment like the infamous Chagan Bhujbal then it will be worthy of admiration.
And going by the standards of your ilk, your ``hostage`` or ``target`` will be the poorest and weakest person you can find, a powerloom operator in Bhiwandi maybe.
Lets see you take on Dawood`s patrons in Maharashtra goverment like the infamous Chagan Bhujbal then it will be worthy of admiration.
#19 Posted by Ranjit on July 4, 2005 4:27:43 pm
Re:#16 bongdongs
If you think the islamization of West Bengal is far-fetched, go and talk to some bongs in C.R. Park in Delhi. They are all descendents of refugees in 1947. They will tell you what their parents and grand-parents faced in East Bengal in 1947 in places like Noakhali or how Suhrawardy encourage hindu massacares in Calcutta. As you mindlessly convert West Bengal to a muslim majority state, your only choice may be to get converted as well.
If you think the islamization of West Bengal is far-fetched, go and talk to some bongs in C.R. Park in Delhi. They are all descendents of refugees in 1947. They will tell you what their parents and grand-parents faced in East Bengal in 1947 in places like Noakhali or how Suhrawardy encourage hindu massacares in Calcutta. As you mindlessly convert West Bengal to a muslim majority state, your only choice may be to get converted as well.
#18 Posted by Mike on July 4, 2005 4:27:17 pm
Exactly..stupid bongs have no idea what they are in for. Muslims already constitute 60-70% of the population of 3-4 districts in West Bengal.
#17 Posted by Ranjit on July 4, 2005 4:21:59 pm
#16 bongdongs
Actually you should watch out for your family, as West Bengal becomes a muslim majority state thanks to the commies that you keep electing there mindlessly. Your family may end up taking refuge in Bihar as a muslim west bengal kicks them out.
Actually you should watch out for your family, as West Bengal becomes a muslim majority state thanks to the commies that you keep electing there mindlessly. Your family may end up taking refuge in Bihar as a muslim west bengal kicks them out.
#16 Posted by bongdongs on July 4, 2005 4:16:44 pm
#15
Actually I have a better idea, lets use your family as a hostage and then we will ask Togadia to migrate to Saudia.
what say, deal?
Actually I have a better idea, lets use your family as a hostage and then we will ask Togadia to migrate to Saudia.
what say, deal?
#15 Posted by Ranjit on July 4, 2005 3:38:08 pm
Re:stuka
Keeping aside foul language, how about debating the facts? Every day in Kashmir, 10-15 people get killed. Recently school children were killed in a bomb blast. This is in spite of starting the bus service to Muzaffarabad, allowing the APHC leaders to visit Pakistan, having free and fair elections to let Kashmiris elect their own government and pouring billions of dollars in aid. On top of it hindus have been ethnically cleansed from Kashmir valley, pretty much in the same way your family got ethnically cleansed from Punjab in 1947.
How long are we going to wallow in our impotence? Should we keep on ``negotiating`` while giving a daily human sacrifice of 10-15 people to the God of Islam? When do we say, enough is enough? What is wrong in using the river waters to blackmail Pakistan into submission? Pakistan`s soft spot is Islam. Why not use the Kashmiri and Indian muslims as a hostage to blackmail them into giving up Kashmir?
Keeping aside foul language, how about debating the facts? Every day in Kashmir, 10-15 people get killed. Recently school children were killed in a bomb blast. This is in spite of starting the bus service to Muzaffarabad, allowing the APHC leaders to visit Pakistan, having free and fair elections to let Kashmiris elect their own government and pouring billions of dollars in aid. On top of it hindus have been ethnically cleansed from Kashmir valley, pretty much in the same way your family got ethnically cleansed from Punjab in 1947.
How long are we going to wallow in our impotence? Should we keep on ``negotiating`` while giving a daily human sacrifice of 10-15 people to the God of Islam? When do we say, enough is enough? What is wrong in using the river waters to blackmail Pakistan into submission? Pakistan`s soft spot is Islam. Why not use the Kashmiri and Indian muslims as a hostage to blackmail them into giving up Kashmir?
#49 Posted by kannaraja on July 5, 2005 1:07:25 pm
Re: # 15
Ranjit: What exactly is your concern with Muslims/Islam?
Raja
Ranjit: What exactly is your concern with Muslims/Islam?
Raja
#14 Posted by arjun_m on July 4, 2005 3:23:30 pm
#9 by hassansiddiqi on July 4, 2005 2:01pm PT
There should be no doubt in anyone`s mind that Kashmir is a dispute.
And there should be no doubt in YOUR mind that India isn`t going to agree to a change in boundaries any time soon...
Without its resolution, there can be no peace between India and Pakistan.
What makes you think the resolution will be to your liking?
In my opinion, the solution to this dispute lies in an environment of interdependence between Pakistan and India. Both nations have a lot to offer to each other when it comes to trade. An increase in trade should result in improved economic relations.
Your government begs to differ...They`re saying ``Trade with India linked to Kashmir solution`` i.e. hand over Kashmir in a platter and we`ll be generous enough to give you access to our market(which is worth a 10th of the whole Indian market)...
Maybe they should link an internet connection to India to the resolution of the Kashmir dispute..
However, there should be some adjustments with regards to water supplies and things of that nature for both countries.
That`s what this is about, isn`t it? The water?
Without a win-win situation for Pakistanis, Indians and Kashmiris, there cannot be a resolution.
Sheesh...if there WAS a win-win, don`t you think someone would have thought of it by now?
There should be no doubt in anyone`s mind that Kashmir is a dispute.
And there should be no doubt in YOUR mind that India isn`t going to agree to a change in boundaries any time soon...
Without its resolution, there can be no peace between India and Pakistan.
What makes you think the resolution will be to your liking?
In my opinion, the solution to this dispute lies in an environment of interdependence between Pakistan and India. Both nations have a lot to offer to each other when it comes to trade. An increase in trade should result in improved economic relations.
Your government begs to differ...They`re saying ``Trade with India linked to Kashmir solution`` i.e. hand over Kashmir in a platter and we`ll be generous enough to give you access to our market(which is worth a 10th of the whole Indian market)...
Maybe they should link an internet connection to India to the resolution of the Kashmir dispute..
However, there should be some adjustments with regards to water supplies and things of that nature for both countries.
That`s what this is about, isn`t it? The water?
Without a win-win situation for Pakistanis, Indians and Kashmiris, there cannot be a resolution.
Sheesh...if there WAS a win-win, don`t you think someone would have thought of it by now?
#13 Posted by stuka on July 4, 2005 3:20:37 pm
Wasiey, idiots like Mike and Ranjit sit in front of a computer and salivate over killing people as if it is playing kanchey...have u even stabbed or bashed someone with a hockey stick?
Or are you idiots mirror images of the Pakistani elite that created a Jehadi culture for the poor while sitting in air-conditioned comfort of the Defence club themselves?
Or are you idiots mirror images of the Pakistani elite that created a Jehadi culture for the poor while sitting in air-conditioned comfort of the Defence club themselves?
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