Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?

Who tarnished the image of Pakiland?

Elementary.

The Coffee Peddling Witch, The Cutting & Pasting Obese Hag, The Mad Mullah of Chowk, and the Hippo.

Who is tarnishing the image??? It is the tolerance to these mullahs..........it is the tolerance to terrorism and bigotry in your own house that is causing all this......for now let them say welcome to the new Talibanized regime in NWFP before any one raises this question again.


‘Hasba bill to isolate MMA’

By Raja Asghar

ISLAMABAD, July 9: The NWFP government’s plan to enact a new law to create religious watchdogs has rung alarm bells in the country, some critics seeing it as a move by the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA) government to Talibanise the sensitive region.

While the MMA government was due to introduce the controversial Hasbah Bill in the provincial assembly on Monday, the move was denounced by almost all other major political parties and human rights groups in the country.

But the MMA, which says it only seeks to reform society in line with Islamic teachings, seemed set to get the bill passed by its comfortable majority in the 124-seat house.

Designed to create religious mohtasibs, or ombudsmen, at the provincial, district and tehsil levels who will be helped by a virtual religious police in what will be known as “amar bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar” (promotion of virtue and prevention of evil) department, the bill is likely to further strain the provincial government’s relations with the federal government, political sources said.

#32

``All of us have biases. But I can correct myself when I am wrong. You are blinded to your distorted version of reality.``

I dont know how you have come to this conclusion...but I find it fruitless to continue with you on this issue...

``Why don`t name this Pakistani company that manufactured Suzuki components and spare us all this crap. If they were so good they would have found other buyer``

Pakistan exported those components to Kporea...it is on record for your information.

``To say Afghanistan`s environment is polluted because of US bombing is laughable. ``

Then keep laughing ... I am disappointed in myself for my earlier estimation of your intelligence.

``Your statement that ``Pakistan managed them pretty well`` reflects your opinion. It pretty much sums your credibility.``

I know its a waste of time...so it over and all from myside...take care and good bye!

#30 by ahmedmadani

[Re: # 15 Mr Arjun M ..You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. ]


WHAT good name?

The image is indeed ``tarnished``. There are no signs of recovery in the near future as well.

[This country could have done so much better with a better leader. Politicians everywhere are corrupt, but they still have national interests. Unfortunately our leaders have always belonged to the army or of a feudal background. Either way, common man always suffers. We know however who actually tarnished the image of Pakistan.]

There was something in this article that made me visit it twice. Chowk is posting jargon right and left but there was something here that needed attention. Pakistanis will never be happy with any home grown leader. If there`s a maulvi in picture then the masses will desire a liberal. If there`s a liberal in power then they will wish for a conservative. If he/she is a balanced individual then they will seek for irrational and unbalanced creation of God. Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer. People will never be completely happy and content.

For the leaders (good or bad), there is also very little return on investment. Their lives are at stake all the time. Historically, none of the Pakistani leaders have had a decent end to their tenure. Theyve had a miserable end and added to the misery of the masses. Well, they have certainly attracted enough attention to further tarnish the image of Pakistan. With that said, probably the leadership position needs to be outsourced.

sifzal #31

`` You are in love with your country (and I understand that) so you have to side with them and see Pakistani media through Indian or ``Western`` media eyes.... The issue is that till you get out of that framework, I can’t make you see the realities... ``

All of us have biases. But I can correct myself when I am wrong. You are blinded to your distorted version of reality.

`` In 1996 American Secretary of commerce and industry addressing a workshop organized by us said, Pakistan’s soil for fruits especially Sahiwal is better than Florida’s country soil...the potential of FDI in the engineering industry is great too...but the problem is media, honestly your government should take CNN and BBC by the horns those have distorted the image. Till it does so, people’s image about Pakistan will not change, and a single person like me who knows the truth can’t do anything...`` (Indian media now has joined the two medias, if not surpassed them). It was the same workshop where we were informed that Indian Suzuki (you call it maruti) wanted to import from Pakistan some Suzuki parts as Pakistani manufactured were of very good quality parts and would have costed them cheaper than importing from Japan or Korea, but Indra Ghandi warned the MD in person that she would rather see the factory closed for which even a nut & bolt is to be imported from Pakistan. You can verify it from your suzuki/maruti owner. With such feelings at the top, Indian media needs to follow the same, and Indian public can never appreciate the other side...I don`t know how much to share with you my experiences...but once you have step out of your shell I know you will be able to find a lot more... ``

Your example on Maruti is exactly an illustration of your biases.

Indira Gandhi is elected Prime Minister of India. Maruti used to be owned 50% by the Indian government. She has the right to tell the Maruti MD what to do. I prefer she did concentrated on other things rather than telling Maruti MD what to do. Why should Indira Gandhi do business with Pakistani companies when Gen Zia was arming Khalistanis.

Why don`t name this Pakistani company that manufactured Suzuki components and spare us all this crap. If they were so good they would have found other buyers.

``what environmental degradation ?? ``

`` I don’t know what to say...it so much of ignorance in this sentence, but I understand again as everyone need not to be aware of every thing. The amount of bombs fired were the highest since the Second World War...more than they fired even in Iraq or else where... ``

To say Afghanistan`s environment is polluted because of US bombing is laughable.

`` Ignoring the use of adjective by you here is the fact from my point of view...A generation which is born under the soviets invasion followed by the guerilla war over a period of 22 years, should not be expected to be reasonable like those living in peaceful environment from the day one of coming into power or even in next 5 years...the world ignored them and even US left the after getting its mission completed of Soviet defeat. Pakistan was left alone to deal with the generation that knew nothing but war and was fully equipped by weapons provided by the US. This new generation was a different breed and I would say that Pakistan managed them pretty well during their initial phase, and before things could be brought to better, it was forced by US to change its stance. The ``ethnic bitterness`` you mentioned, should be blamed on first to the soviets and the world at large before putting on Talibans who put all sorts of embargos on them. ``

Your statement that ``Pakistan managed them pretty well`` reflects your opinion. It pretty much sums your credibility.

Re: # 28
``The problem with the some in the biased Pakistani media is that they violate every single facet of journalist ethics. To be fair there is a good share of those in India. The problem is not with American journalists. The real problem in USA is the attention span of the public. Corporate ownership of media is a limited issue. ``

You are in love with your country (and I understand that) so you have to side with them and see Pakistani media through Indian or ``Western`` media eyes.... The issue is that till you get out of that framework, I can’t make you see the realities...

In 1996 American Secretary of commerce and industry addressing a workshop organized by us said, Pakistan’s soil for fruits especially Sahiwal is better than Florida’s country soil...the potential of FDI in the engineering industry is great too...but the problem is media, honestly your government should take CNN and BBC by the horns those have distorted the image. Till it does so, people’s image about Pakistan will not change, and a single person like me who knows the truth can’t do anything...`` (Indian media now has joined the two medias, if not surpassed them). It was the same workshop where we were informed that Indian Suzuki (you call it maruti) wanted to import from Pakistan some Suzuki parts as Pakistani manufactured were of very good quality parts and would have costed them cheaper than importing from Japan or Korea, but Indra Ghandi warned the MD in person that she would rather see the factory closed for which even a nut & bolt is to be imported from Pakistan. You can verify it from your suzuki/maruti owner. With such feelings at the top, Indian media needs to follow the same, and Indian public can never appreciate the other side...I don`t know how much to share with you my experiences...but once you have step out of your shell I know you will be able to find a lot more...

``what environmental degradation ?? ``
I don’t know what to say...it so much of ignorance in this sentence, but I understand again as everyone need not to be aware of every thing. The amount of bombs fired were the highest since the Second World War...more than they fired even in Iraq or else where...

``Your support of the Taliban based on common crime statistics is pathetic. Stalin`s Russia was safe from crime too. The Taliban is largely responsible for ethnic bitterness between Pusthuns and Tajiks, Hazaras etc. May be that is why Pakistanis are so fond of it.``

Ignoring the use of adjective by you here is the fact from my point of view...A generation which is born under the soviets invasion followed by the guerilla war over a period of 22 years, should not be expected to be reasonable like those living in peaceful environment from the day one of coming into power or even in next 5 years...the world ignored them and even US left the after getting its mission completed of Soviet defeat. Pakistan was left alone to deal with the generation that knew nothing but war and was fully equipped by weapons provided by the US. This new generation was a different breed and I would say that Pakistan managed them pretty well during their initial phase, and before things could be brought to better, it was forced by US to change its stance. The ``ethnic bitterness`` you mentioned, should be blamed on first to the soviets and the world at large before putting on Talibans who put all sorts of embargos on them.

``India does not have a border with Afghanistan. India had poor relations with Iran in 1979. I do not think they could do anything to stop the Soviets.``

Re: # 15 Mr Arjun M ..you seems extremely happy due this English terror problem.
You enjoy miseries. You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. You should have sad for loss of life but you are having time of your life. Pakistanis are very sad ok. These are ENGLISH not pakistanise so is English problem ot Pakistani problem.
You are recist. The English court majistrate has declared ``Paki`` as detogatory word and person uttering such bad stuff can be prosecuted in England.

For your knowledge refer us as ``Pakistanies `` not pakis as you refer all time. Also refer as Pakistan or Islamic republics of Pakistan and not as ``Pakiland``.
I do not think you are going follow my suggestion.
Anyway you have time of life so please enjoy all time at others miseries.
I never refer Indoa/Bharat as Land of Kafirs or as some refer to India as bunch of chicken headed Kufrstan as we as decent, modest and cultured.

Re: # 11

nidihash

“i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.”

I am sorry dear nidhiash (I don’t know your sex either) that you got personal and serious about an episode which in my view was more comic in nature than tragic. It was, as the story goes, first a mullah, then NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. Naturally the media also stepped in and made the best use of it adding fuel to the fire.

Now coming to the question what I meant by ‘fecking honour’ with reference to the Mai’s rape episode.

You know it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the misconduct of her brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. May’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many mouths. But as the courts inquiry goes the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. Do you think dear every body should sit in judgment over a case when one knows nothing even about the bare facts of the case? As you go, you want to dishonour Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.

Now what a display of ‘fecking honour’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgement of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘that bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of ‘fecking honour’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.

In fact I believe sex as such is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eye witnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to be penalized severely. As regards rape, you would have learnt about a ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India. They held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this is the adoption of a Judaistic law which makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour. Now listen what the Wiseman of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He advises that if you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it. I would personally act upon his advice if ever I were subjected to rape albeit by the opposite sex. I envy Mukhtaran Mai that she is lucky to have the best of the two, nay , rather three worlds and is so happy. Only the NGOs seem now to be feeling chillies in their hinds out of jealousy perhaps.

sifzal #25

`` Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one... ``

The problem with the some in the biased Pakistani media is that they violate every single facet of journalist ethics. To be fair there is a good share of those in India. The problem is not with American journalists. The real problem in USA is the attention span of the public. Corporate ownership of media is a limited issue.

`` over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest.... ``

what environmental degradation ??

The initial phase of the US military action lasted 4-5 weeks. Most of the aircraft F/A-18 took off from two aircraft carriers in the Arabian Sea. The B-52 spent more time wandering around looking for targets than dropping any bombs.

If you accuse the Soviets of destroying the place I can live with you.

Your support of the Taliban based on common crime statistics is pathetic. Stalin`s Russia was safe from crime too. The Taliban is largely responsible for ethnic bitterness between Pusthuns and Tajiks, Hazaras etc. May be that is why Pakistanis are so fond of it.

`` Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention ``

India does not have a border with Afghanistan. India had poor relations with Iran in 1979. I do not think they could do anything to stop the Soviets.

Pakistani elite made a decision to support Islamic groups over secular/nationalist groups in the Afghan civil war. Don`t blame USA. They had no choice but to go along. Don`t blame General Zia and his generals. You want the Taliban and you have them. If you like them so much make Pakistan an Islamic emirate. Most of the Taliban leaders are hiding in Pakistan. Quit being a hypocrite.

Don`t blame USA for the opium. How does the opium get out of Afghanistan ? I am sure nothing comes through Pakistan to the outside world.

`` He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve... ``

Then why criticize USA for toppling Saddam ? For the record I do not support USA invasion of Iraq for other reasons.

A guy spent all of his life while praying and worshiping God so one day he thought about having something very materialistic but satisfactory for a change so he climbed a mountain and asked the God for power, the power to do any good or bad with out being answerable to any one, in reply there was silence.

He thought that he isn’t speaking loud so he yelled and requested God for the Power to do any good or bad, once again silence so the guy thought and this time really yelled with full force and requested God for Power – all of the sudden an angel came from the sky and asked the guy to come with him.

The angel took that person to the Devil and told him that this man desires for The Power.

Devil looked at the guy with a smile, handed him a Pakistani Passport and asked him that would you like to become the Military Dictator, Politician or a Religious Leader in Pakistan?

---

It is sad but very true that today our leaders and protectors have become the biggest abusers of power and authority.

We all can talk and argue about million things related to the posting “Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?” By Xari Jalil but such abusive way of thinking is a part of our heritage and culture.

Good Posting Xari Jalil.

Ref# 19

[Do you have any evidence to prove this ?]

Top 25 countries and the total number of recorded rapes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap

US tops the list with 89,110 rapes, followed by South Africa and Canada. India ranks fifth in that list with 15,468 rapes. Pakistan does not make the top 25 list, though it is the 5th most populous country in the world. The number of rapes appear to be less than 1250/year based on that data (still nothing to be proud off).

Few more stats for your perusal:

Rape Facts (US)

•Rape is the fastest growing violent crime in The United States. (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 1994)
•In the United States, a woman is raped every 6 minutes. (Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center of the National Victims Center, 1992)
•The rate of sexual assault in the United States is the highest of any industrialized nation in the world. (Reiso and Roth, 1993)
•1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual violence at some point in her lifetime. (Warshaw, R. 1988. I Never Called It Rape. Harper and Row).
•1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by age 18. (Walker, L. 1988. Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children)
•An estimated 92,700 men are forcibly raped each year in the United States. (Tjaden and Thoennes, 1998)

It is difficult to get the latest numbers for Pakistan. I’ll post as soon as I find them. An excerpt from the US State Department Report is attached for your perusal.

TITLE: PAKISTAN HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES, 1994
AUTHOR: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DATE: FEBRUARY 1995

[“Rape is a widespread problem, although there was a slight
decline in the reported incidence of rape during 1994 compared
to 1993. There were about 800 cases of rape reported in the
press during the year.”]

You can read the complete report at: http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1994_hrp_report/94hrp_report_sasia/Pakistan.html

[Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ? ]

The initial trial was handled by the Anti-terrorism court under the
Ordinance; “Anti-Terrorism (Amendment) Ordinance 1999”, for the purpose of providing a speedy trial for the case. That law provides that any act intended to create civil commotion would be triable in ATA court. In retrospect, that “speedy trial” created more problems than it solved.

Don’t get me wrong. I am on your side and have been on “Mai’s side” since the beginning.

Ref# 20

[No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse.]

I am aware of that and thus used only the word “alleged molestation charges”. Please see: Jackson charges in full http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19389-1464844,00.html

With reference to your other questions:

Ejaculation is not a prerequisite. In fact, approximately 30% of rapists are unable to ejaculate.

Penetration of genitalia, however slight is sufficient to establish rape. In oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio) even penetration is not required.

The concept of “force” comes under the “legal consent designation. The common law says: The victim may submit by force, by gesture, or by threat of death, physical injury, pain or kidnapping to be inflicted upon the victim or a third party, or by any other means which would compel a reasonable person under the circumstances to submit. It is not required that the victim resist such force or threat to the utmost, or to resist if resistance would be futile or foolhardy, but the victim need resist only to the extent that it is reasonably necessary to make the victim`s refusal to consent known to the defendant.

Re: # 17
Dear bbabu
``What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine. ``

Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one...

``tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.``

over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest....

Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention

``I did not see Iraq included in your ratings when Saddam was in charge.``
He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve...

``nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love. ``
Every one is responsible for his own environment. I am doing whatever I am qualified and have gained experienced for. For peace...I have been trainer of the moderators to moderate on behalf of UNESCO around the world. Nevertheless, communicatring my message to madrassas is still on my wish list, which at the moment does not seems to be materializing soon.

My young fellow, you are not too far off the track..keep on researchoing and explore and experience with open mind...you will be amazed of what you were make believed and what is the truth...once you know...it is sad you are unable to tell the whole world about it...many died in the past many will in the future by the civilized societies...!

I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.

Hi arjun,
Yes. I have to keep switching nics to keep them confused. It`s guerilla warfare. I get so mad sometimes that I feel like like .... never mind :)
I notice that you have been quite busy the last few days. That`s a lot of research, my friend.
Salim

hey salim....in trouble with the thread nazis?

Muzzling people so they don`t embarrass the establishment is an age-old practice in Pakistan. Press censorship, selective editing, and coercion are commonplace in the Land of the Pure. What the military regime did is no different than what Chowk does. Messages and threads of individual interactors are blatantly erased, while those of their opponents, usually Chowk`s favorites (so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Pakis) are left intact. I guess this is one way to win arguments and present an untarnished image of the realm. What goes around comes around. The only difference is whose ox is being gored. A thousand curses on Pakis and their suppression of truth.
Salim