Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?

The chivalrous male population of Punjab, the total 60% of total population do have their own way DOING THINGS. This only is the grand reason that we have a nuclear weapon but no law, system or civic sence. In all the instances came up during 10/15 years time, all happened in Punjab, where ladies were raped in front of people, the whole population stood massaging their genitalia instead of doing something to stop this crime. Then international media picks up the news ``IT HAPPENED IN PAKISTAN``, HEY, EXCUSE ME, anybody tell me if this had happened in Karachi...? nada. Sinee the Government is loaded with all major Political figures from Punjab, they try their best to save the culprits as some of them might be their cousins etc. Govt`s attitude towards these rape victim is like these
ladies are ``UNWILLING RECIPIENT OF HUMAN SPERM``. So whats the deal here, I nobody gives an F over there, cause they are busy and willing to put a Pak flag on top fo their houses, AAAAH, FREEDOM TASTES AND SMELL SO GOOOOD.

sifzal #51

Re: # 50
``To say India needs the help of a foreign power is preposterous. It is always Pakistan that has been been afraid of Indian numerical edge. ``

`` bbabu fear from the world is not in the dictionary of a true Muslim. ``

Is the reasoning for this the same as 10 pak soldiers equal to one Indian soldier ?

`` I commented somewhere on Chowk that if India kept on getting their leaders like those of the present times, it has all the potential to assume second largest economy position in next 30 years. But the history and realities of practical life makes it a distant reality, nevertheless it can still perform well and ensure its 250 million people also comes out of poverty line. Another amazing reality is that Pakistan has always come up with surprises. Despite not having India like US and Soviet backing and support in the economic and nuclear fields it has proved to be matching up with India; technical analysis of nuclear testing suggest Pakistan to be more advanced than India. I have a feeling it will remain doing so in future. ``

Pakistan has received three times more foreign aid from USA on a per captia basis than India. Pakistan has received large amounts of money from Gulf states. This offsets any Soviet economic assistance.

What does Pakistan export ? Two thirds of Pakistani exports are textiles. After 57 years Pakistan has one steel mill, one oil refinery and no semiconductor foundries. Just what do you think you are going to export ?

India has underperformed due to license raj and poor infrastructure. The billions of dollars earned from IT is giving the Indian government a second chance to implement infrastructure projects needed to lift millions out of poverty. Why are we talking about a gas pipeline from Iran to India in 2005 ? The natural gas was always there in Iran. India and Pakistan were to the east of Iran. The only thing that is making it possible is the fact India is rich enough to buy the natural gas and make the project financially viable.

`` My all good wishes and prayers for Pakistan`s prosperity with real (not the media hyped extremist) Islamic values and sincere wishes that the two countries do live peacefully (I hope it does not remain a wishful thinking). ``

Until Pakistan wraps up all these dealings with Al Qaeda and Taliban they will be mired in instability.

Re: # 50
``To say India needs the help of a foreign power is preposterous. It is always Pakistan that has been been afraid of Indian numerical edge. ``

bbabu fear from the world is not in the dictionary of a true Muslim.

Nevertheless, I may differ on the logics of your reasoning, but I will respect and appreciate your approach in this discussion which has gradually evolved towards fairness especially since the last two interacts. I also sincerely hope you do get more exposure to the facts of this world. I, for instance, have worked with the premier world organizations at a level where the parameters are designed and finalised based on which categorisation of development and welfare of countries are assessed. This world is a big stage show for words and statistics play. Both of these when projected through clever media the masses are moved. Not many escapes the magic webbed by this stage performance. I have seen this from the back of the stage, and I wish for you the same. I am sure you will agree, personal egos or state bigoted ness should not be allowed to take over the truth and justice.

I commented somewhere on Chowk that if India kept on getting their leaders like those of the present times, it has all the potential to assume second largest economy position in next 30 years. But the history and realities of practical life makes it a distant reality, nevertheless it can still perform well and ensure its 250 million people also comes out of poverty line. Another amazing reality is that Pakistan has always come up with surprises. Despite not having India like US and Soviet backing and support in the economic and nuclear fields it has proved to be matching up with India; technical analysis of nuclear testing suggest Pakistan to be more advanced than India. I have a feeling it will remain doing so in future.

My all good wishes and prayers for Pakistan`s prosperity with real (not the media hyped extremist) Islamic values and sincere wishes that the two countries do live peacefully (I hope it does not remain a wishful thinking).

sifzal #49

````You found it noteworthy to mention Pakistani company wanted to export Suzuki auto parts to Maruti in India. I have a hard time believing that you cannot remember the company name``...``

`` Over here we are talking in all sincerity...not making things up, at least that’s what I am doing, and I hope you are as well. Eventually I did recall the name...I hope you got it in the previous message. ``

okay I will give you the benefit of doubt.


`` Till Mid 1990s India had a very closed economy as compared to Pakistan. Pakistani products being exposed to international competition were therefore of high quality and therefore had an edge over Indian products. India manufacturers on the other hand were manufacturing on a large scale and therefore had advantage over cost as compared to Pakistan. It makes sense for a business person to look for products those are of better quality and are cheaper as well, it therefore did made sense for maruti manufacturer to request Indian government to allow them to buy from Pakistan. I think it would have been much wiser if you could have got in touch with Maruti and got this verified. Merely brushing aside other arguments based on personal whims doesn`t make sense, or does it? ``

It is true Pakistan was exposed to international competition. Usually that meant import of foreign goods.

Indian government liberalized the cement, two wheeler, color television and a bunch of other insignificant industries in the 1980-1985 timeframe. The two wheeler industry has always been competitive since the early 1980s. The TVS group was far more sophisticated than anything Pakistan could have in the 1980s. Search for ``TVS``, ``quality``` and ``awards`` on Google.

It is irrelevant that Maruti could have would have and should have ordered. It never happened. I have seen proposals where Toyota exported trucks from India to Pakistan and Camry sedans from Pakistan to India. Do you really think Pakistani workers can produce better Camry sedans than Japanese workers ? The only reason for silly Japanese proposals was to get around auto part duties and quotas. Japanese car companies are pretty good at that.

`` Let not expand our discussion to other countries ... nevertheless, I am surprised your mentioning of old soviet...yes you sure can say it now, and I am sure you will say it against USA one day too...not now for now it for you what old soviets were once. ``

Given the scope of their power USA is not a hard state. They have exhibited enormous restraint against Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran etc. They have forgiven old adversaries like Vietnam, Libya under Qadafi etc. They could bomb the crap of the Hezbollah in Lebanon. They have maintained intense pressure on human right violators like North Korea, Burma, Sudan etc. There is no reason why North Korean or Burmese generals would not kiss upto Bush if he lifted American sanctions on them.

`` Well India is lucky to have the support of big powers to help it against Pakistan on every occasion. When only once it tried to deal on its own it was losing wasn`t it? ``

First Pakistan never had the ability to seize large amounts of Indian territorry. Right now the Pakistani army would have a hard time marching 50-100 kilometers into Indian Punjab or Rajasthan. They have zero capability to sustain logistics for more than a few days. That is precisely the reason for intruding 5-10 miles in Kargil with a small number of commandos.
Otherwise send a division and seize the whole heights.

Second if Pakistan got lucky and caught India unprepared it does not have the ability to withstand the Indian military counter-attack.

The total number of long range PAF strikes into Indian territorry is one. In 1971 they tried to hit the Agra air force base without any luck.

To say India needs the help of a foreign power is preposterous. It is always Pakistan that has been been afraid of Indian numerical edge.

Re: # 48

``You found it noteworthy to mention Pakistani company wanted to export Suzuki auto parts to Maruti in India. I have a hard time believing that you cannot remember the company name``...

Over here we are talking in all sincerity...not making things up, at least that’s what I am doing, and I hope you are as well. Eventually I did recall the name...I hope you got it in the previous message.

``For the record India has a far more sophisticated auto parts industry than Pakistan``

Till Mid 1990s India had a very closed economy as compared to Pakistan. Pakistani products being exposed to international competition were therefore of high quality and therefore had an edge over Indian products. India manufacturers on the other hand were manufacturing on a large scale and therefore had advantage over cost as compared to Pakistan. It makes sense for a business person to look for products those are of better quality and are cheaper as well, it therefore did made sense for maruti manufacturer to request Indian government to allow them to buy from Pakistan. I think it would have been much wiser if you could have got in touch with Maruti and got this verified. Merely brushing aside other arguments based on personal whims doesn`t make sense, or does it?

``Despite your numerous grievances against India Indian state is a soft state. You want to know countries where might is right. Try North Korea, pre-1990 China, Vietnam, Burma, Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Syria unde late Assad, Sudan, old Soviet Union``

Well bbabu, we sure have different dictionaries that define the term ``soft``....take a look at dec. 2002 times front cover (one of the four), and than explain me what is soft?

Let not expand our discussion to other countries ... nevertheless, I am surprised your mentioning of old soviet...yes you sure can say it now, and I am sure you will say it against USA one day too...not now for now it for you what old soviets were once.

``Try to win a war before you start boasting``
Well India is lucky to have the support of big powers to help it against Pakistan on every occasion. When only once it tried to deal on its own it was losing wasn`t it?

``Do you understand the meaning of freedom ? I have the right to choose my friends. Friendship is a privilege not a right.``

I am surprised still will commend you, the only sentence that does make sense and good one from my standards...so cheers for it is a good one, keep thinking and writing like this and I am sure I will find us on the same path, no need of any more arguments!

``Please spare me this nonsense on behaviour and writing skills. Stick to the facts and arguments. Shall we ?``
Smiles, bbabu, just read your previous and present messages, you will understand why I wrote that message last time

sifzal #44

`` So you find it amazing that a person who has attended over 100 workshops participated by on average 30-40 companies, and seminars all around the world since 1987 is unable to recall name of the one participating company back in 1996! ... I knew I am wasting time here... ``

You found it noteworthy to mention Pakistani company wanted to export Suzuki auto parts to Maruti in India. I have a hard time believing that you cannot remember the company name. For the record India has a far more sophisticated auto parts industry than Pakistan.
Given the political tensions between India and Pakistan it beats me as to why Maruti would purchase those auto parts from Pakistan.

`` Your and arjun statements suggest that unlike me, you believe in might is right, that was the reason first you insisted England to be your masters even after 1947 independence of yours and annexed illegally many states even after accepting either them as part of Pakistan or remain independent, under the same master you were able to get into Kashmir. Then you found another master USSR and now USA, so whatever the Master does you find logics to justify it, and blame all on the others like in Taliban case you feel US justified ``had to do it`` but Pakistan all fully sovereign to make decision on its on!. Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson. ``

Despite your numerous grievances against India Indian state is a soft state. You want to know countries where might is right. Try North Korea, pre-1990 China, Vietnam, Burma, Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Syria unde late Assad, Sudan, old Soviet Union. They can teach you a thing or two about force.

If USSR and USA are masters to India I do not know how to characterize the relationship between Pakistan and other foreign states.

Try to win a war before you start boasting.

`` Come out of this slave mentality if you understand the meaning of freedom and learn to be friends, than slaves...but I know you will never understand for you are not free in mind as yet or in spirit and will keep harping the tune of your masters...Have reverence for Pakistan, for this is the land from which civilization entered into the land you now call India - the name you stole from the motherland Pakistan (India name is associated with Indus Valley; at the time of independence you tricked Jinnah and Mountbatin also mentioned Jinnah was furious...remember India was to be divided into Pakistan and Bharat...look partition time maps). You fall for glitter and not in a habit of doing research to know the truth behind! ``

What slave mentality ? Who is my master ?

Do you understand the meaning of freedom ? I have the right to choose my friends. Friendship is a privilege not a right.

What is this garbage about stealing names ? Did Pakistan steal the name Islamabad from Islam ?

The official name of India is Bharat.

`` Talk on BCCI and the name of the companies of international repute, first take the name of the relatively small company in Pakistan that has been exporting auto-parts to Korea, its Spel group of companies… coming to the next, I will respond when you will learn how to behave and use words while writing. ``

Please spare me this nonsense on behavior and writing skills. Stick to the facts and arguments. Shall we ?

#44 by sifzal

[So you find it amazing that a person who has attended over 100 workshops participated by on average 30-40 companies, and seminars all around the world since 1987 is unable to recall name of the one participating company back in 1996!]

Numbers don`t amount to anything. It is the quality my dear.

[........and annexed illegally many states even after accepting either them as part of Pakistan or remain independent, under the same master you were able to get into Kashmir.]

What a sorry excuse! Just because you are unable to accept that you guys were beaten fair and square in a war, where the Indian troops, scrambled at a short notice routed Paki troops and pushed them back out of Kashmir, you don`t have to cook up stories as to how India was a stooge of some foreign power. That honor belongs entirely to Pakiland.

[Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson.]

What was the end result? Pakiland was kicked out of Kargil. Isn`t that what matters in a war?

[Come out of this slave mentality if you understand the meaning of freedom and learn to be friends, than slaves...but I know you will never understand for you are not free in mind as yet or in spirit and will keep harping the tune of your masters.]

Oh yeah! One glance at any Paki newspaper and you will know who the slave is and has been. First America, then China, and now America again.

[..Have reverence for Pakistan, for this is the land from which civilization entered into the land you now call India - the name you stole from the motherland Pakistan (India name is associated with Indus Valley; at the time of independence you tricked Jinnah and Mountbatin also mentioned Jinnah was furious...remember India was to be divided into Pakistan and Bharat...look partition time maps). You fall for glitter and not in a habit of doing research to know the truth behind!]

Are you sure you conducted `over a hundred workshops`? Can a man who speaks so childishly can ever be called upon to attend a workshop, let alone conduct it?

RE : #44 by sifzal on July 20, 2005 6:24pm PT

Dude the company you mentioned dosent even have its own website. Such companies who make pins and nails are in thousands on this side of the border. Frankly speaking it, seems you havent learnt what automobile industry is, even after hitting a century of workshops.
Industry is not your domain, so go home have some pindi chhole and relax.

BTW I saw the photographs of your famous Sitara car. It looks cute, only its 50 years out of date.

#44 by sifzal on July 20, 2005 6:24pm PT


but Pakistan all fully sovereign to make decision on its on!.


mmmkay...the paki generals make the decision to allow the US military to kill pakis on paki soil...

riiiight


Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson.


your generals never told you why, if India was losing in Kargil, did Nawaz Sharif had to rush to Washington on the 4th of july..and that too uninvited...most non-pakis would expect the leader of the losing side to rush to washington to beg for intervention... Of course, the question wouldn`t arise with most non-pakis who, seeing that India holds the land that was in contention in the Kargil war, would treat that as kind of a defeat for pakiland....

Re: # 42
So you find it amazing that a person who has attended over 100 workshops participated by on average 30-40 companies, and seminars all around the world since 1987 is unable to recall name of the one participating company back in 1996! ... I knew I am wasting time here...

Your and arjun statements suggest that unlike me, you believe in might is right, that was the reason first you insisted England to be your masters even after 1947 independence of yours and annexed illegally many states even after accepting either them as part of Pakistan or remain independent, under the same master you were able to get into Kashmir. Then you found another master USSR and now USA, so whatever the Master does you find logics to justify it, and blame all on the others like in Taliban case you feel US justified ``had to do it`` but Pakistan all fully sovereign to make decision on its on!. Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson.

Come out of this slave mentality if you understand the meaning of freedom and learn to be friends, than slaves...but I know you will never understand for you are not free in mind as yet or in spirit and will keep harping the tune of your masters...Have reverence for Pakistan, for this is the land from which civilization entered into the land you now call India - the name you stole from the motherland Pakistan (India name is associated with Indus Valley; at the time of independence you tricked Jinnah and Mountbatin also mentioned Jinnah was furious...remember India was to be divided into Pakistan and Bharat...look partition time maps). You fall for glitter and not in a habit of doing research to know the truth behind!

Talk on BCCI and the name of the companies of international repute, first take the name of the relatively small company in Pakistan that has been exporting auto-parts to Korea, its Spel group of companies… coming to the next, I will respond when you will learn how to behave and use words while writing.

arjun_m #40

`` Name one Pakistani company that can hold it`s own in the world..an equivalent to Infosys or Wipro...or reliance or Moser-Baer....``

I thought BCCI was a good Pakistani company until they were exposed to be crooks and criminals.

sifzal #39

````Name the company. You conveniently dodged the question twice. ````

`` There are many companies manufacturing and exporting auto components including those for Suzuki in Pakistan. The workshop (1996) I referred to was also attended by many companies, and I do not remember names of the companies exporting those components as that was not the primary motive for me as an organizer and a moderator. Nevertheless, the person who revealed this information in the workshop was, to the best of my memory, Almas Haider (I recall his name because we played tennis once together in Lahore in 1986) who also owns one of such manufacturing plants, and has served one term as the President Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry (LCCI). I am afraid I do not have his direct numbers any more, but if you are really interested, you should be able to get his contacts through LCCI web site and verify the information I provided.``

If the company is worthwhile they would have found customers. Do not give me the BS about not being able to export to India.

````It is you who insists on the virtues of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. If they were so good impose on Pakistani public what was imposed in Afghanistan````

`` OK you request for Iraq like invasion on USA, Australia and India for killing hundreds of thousand of their own people and I will request for Taliban like rule in Pakistan...now this is tit for tat like response and not wish to pursue this sort of discussion, which is not meant for creativeness or knowledge. ``

Pakistani generals who created, financed and equipped the Taliban are capable of imposing Taliban rule on Pakistan. You do not any external help for this. There are plenty of Pakistanis on the chowk which could cheer.

I can request a Iraq style invasion of USA or India or Australia. I just do not know any of any entity that could accomplish it !!!

A couple of things i find really absurd on this board.One comment about Maruti buying from Pak Suzuki.Last year(foggedabout this year) Maruti manufactured half a million cars for domestic consumption in India alone.Pak Suzuki manufactured 29,500 cars.That`s it.Who should be buying from whom??.Also, about India`s relations with Iran.They have always been excellent and will continue.India`s petroleum reserves are maintained by , surprise!!, the Saudis and crude oil is supplied on a priority basis by the Iranians!!.Now, indian oil companies have gone across the oceans to Ecuador and Venezuela and actually bought oilfields to operate and pump oil for consumption in India.Thanks to hte saudis and the iranians, who supply us at negotiated rates, our oil companies have amassed huge currency reserves to branch out on their own.The IOC, the Indian Oil Corporation is the largest oil company in Asia, bar none.

#39 by sifzal on July 19, 2005 1:53am PT


I do not remember names of the companies exporting those components


mmmkay...just like you don`t remember the names of the paki army generals who were prosecuted for the genocide in 71....

Name one Pakistani company that can hold it`s own in the world..an equivalent to Infosys or Wipro...or reliance or Moser-Baer....

#38

``Name the company. You conveniently dodged the question twice. ``

There are many companies manufacturing and exporting auto components including those for Suzuki in Pakistan. The workshop (1996) I referred to was also attended by many companies, and I do not remember names of the companies exporting those components as that was not the primary motive for me as an organizer and a moderator. Nevertheless, the person who revealed this information in the workshop was, to the best of my memory, Almas Haider (I recall his name because we played tennis once together in Lahore in 1986) who also owns one of such manufacturing plants, and has served one term as the President Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry (LCCI). I am afraid I do not have his direct numbers any more, but if you are really interested, you should be able to get his contacts through LCCI web site and verify the information I provided.

``It is you who insists on the virtues of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. If they were so good impose on Pakistani public what was imposed in Afghanistan``

OK you request for Iraq like invasion on USA, Australia and India for killing hundreds of thousand of their own people and I will request for Taliban like rule in Pakistan...now this is tit for tat like response and not wish to pursue this sort of discussion, which is not meant for creativeness or knowledge.

sifzal #35

`` I dont know how you have come to this conclusion...but I find it fruitless to continue with you on this issue... ``

It is you who insists on the virtues of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. If they were so good impose on Pakistani public what was imposed in Afghanistan.

````Why don`t name this Pakistani company that manufactured Suzuki components and spare us all this crap. If they were so good they would have found other buyer````

`` Pakistan exported those components to Kporea...it is on record for your information. ``

Name the company. You conveniently dodged the question twice.

````Your statement that ``Pakistan managed them pretty well`` reflects your opinion. It pretty much sums your credibility.````

`` I know its a waste of time...so it over and all from myside...take care and good bye! ``

If you think Pakistan managed the post 1990 transition in Afghanistan well it is your opinion. You are entitled to it. Do not expect everyone to agree with you.

Who tarnished the image of Pakiland?

Elementary.

The Coffee Peddling Witch, The Cutting & Pasting Obese Hag, The Mad Mullah of Chowk, and the Hippo.

Who is tarnishing the image??? It is the tolerance to these mullahs..........it is the tolerance to terrorism and bigotry in your own house that is causing all this......for now let them say welcome to the new Talibanized regime in NWFP before any one raises this question again.


‘Hasba bill to isolate MMA’

By Raja Asghar

ISLAMABAD, July 9: The NWFP government’s plan to enact a new law to create religious watchdogs has rung alarm bells in the country, some critics seeing it as a move by the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA) government to Talibanise the sensitive region.

While the MMA government was due to introduce the controversial Hasbah Bill in the provincial assembly on Monday, the move was denounced by almost all other major political parties and human rights groups in the country.

But the MMA, which says it only seeks to reform society in line with Islamic teachings, seemed set to get the bill passed by its comfortable majority in the 124-seat house.

Designed to create religious mohtasibs, or ombudsmen, at the provincial, district and tehsil levels who will be helped by a virtual religious police in what will be known as “amar bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar” (promotion of virtue and prevention of evil) department, the bill is likely to further strain the provincial government’s relations with the federal government, political sources said.

#32

``All of us have biases. But I can correct myself when I am wrong. You are blinded to your distorted version of reality.``

I dont know how you have come to this conclusion...but I find it fruitless to continue with you on this issue...

``Why don`t name this Pakistani company that manufactured Suzuki components and spare us all this crap. If they were so good they would have found other buyer``

Pakistan exported those components to Kporea...it is on record for your information.

``To say Afghanistan`s environment is polluted because of US bombing is laughable. ``

Then keep laughing ... I am disappointed in myself for my earlier estimation of your intelligence.

``Your statement that ``Pakistan managed them pretty well`` reflects your opinion. It pretty much sums your credibility.``

I know its a waste of time...so it over and all from myside...take care and good bye!

#30 by ahmedmadani

[Re: # 15 Mr Arjun M ..You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. ]


WHAT good name?

The image is indeed ``tarnished``. There are no signs of recovery in the near future as well.

[This country could have done so much better with a better leader. Politicians everywhere are corrupt, but they still have national interests. Unfortunately our leaders have always belonged to the army or of a feudal background. Either way, common man always suffers. We know however who actually tarnished the image of Pakistan.]

There was something in this article that made me visit it twice. Chowk is posting jargon right and left but there was something here that needed attention. Pakistanis will never be happy with any home grown leader. If there`s a maulvi in picture then the masses will desire a liberal. If there`s a liberal in power then they will wish for a conservative. If he/she is a balanced individual then they will seek for irrational and unbalanced creation of God. Unfortunately, there is no perfect answer. People will never be completely happy and content.

For the leaders (good or bad), there is also very little return on investment. Their lives are at stake all the time. Historically, none of the Pakistani leaders have had a decent end to their tenure. Theyve had a miserable end and added to the misery of the masses. Well, they have certainly attracted enough attention to further tarnish the image of Pakistan. With that said, probably the leadership position needs to be outsourced.

sifzal #31

`` You are in love with your country (and I understand that) so you have to side with them and see Pakistani media through Indian or ``Western`` media eyes.... The issue is that till you get out of that framework, I can’t make you see the realities... ``

All of us have biases. But I can correct myself when I am wrong. You are blinded to your distorted version of reality.

`` In 1996 American Secretary of commerce and industry addressing a workshop organized by us said, Pakistan’s soil for fruits especially Sahiwal is better than Florida’s country soil...the potential of FDI in the engineering industry is great too...but the problem is media, honestly your government should take CNN and BBC by the horns those have distorted the image. Till it does so, people’s image about Pakistan will not change, and a single person like me who knows the truth can’t do anything...`` (Indian media now has joined the two medias, if not surpassed them). It was the same workshop where we were informed that Indian Suzuki (you call it maruti) wanted to import from Pakistan some Suzuki parts as Pakistani manufactured were of very good quality parts and would have costed them cheaper than importing from Japan or Korea, but Indra Ghandi warned the MD in person that she would rather see the factory closed for which even a nut & bolt is to be imported from Pakistan. You can verify it from your suzuki/maruti owner. With such feelings at the top, Indian media needs to follow the same, and Indian public can never appreciate the other side...I don`t know how much to share with you my experiences...but once you have step out of your shell I know you will be able to find a lot more... ``

Your example on Maruti is exactly an illustration of your biases.

Indira Gandhi is elected Prime Minister of India. Maruti used to be owned 50% by the Indian government. She has the right to tell the Maruti MD what to do. I prefer she did concentrated on other things rather than telling Maruti MD what to do. Why should Indira Gandhi do business with Pakistani companies when Gen Zia was arming Khalistanis.

Why don`t name this Pakistani company that manufactured Suzuki components and spare us all this crap. If they were so good they would have found other buyers.

``what environmental degradation ?? ``

`` I don’t know what to say...it so much of ignorance in this sentence, but I understand again as everyone need not to be aware of every thing. The amount of bombs fired were the highest since the Second World War...more than they fired even in Iraq or else where... ``

To say Afghanistan`s environment is polluted because of US bombing is laughable.

`` Ignoring the use of adjective by you here is the fact from my point of view...A generation which is born under the soviets invasion followed by the guerilla war over a period of 22 years, should not be expected to be reasonable like those living in peaceful environment from the day one of coming into power or even in next 5 years...the world ignored them and even US left the after getting its mission completed of Soviet defeat. Pakistan was left alone to deal with the generation that knew nothing but war and was fully equipped by weapons provided by the US. This new generation was a different breed and I would say that Pakistan managed them pretty well during their initial phase, and before things could be brought to better, it was forced by US to change its stance. The ``ethnic bitterness`` you mentioned, should be blamed on first to the soviets and the world at large before putting on Talibans who put all sorts of embargos on them. ``

Your statement that ``Pakistan managed them pretty well`` reflects your opinion. It pretty much sums your credibility.

Re: # 28
``The problem with the some in the biased Pakistani media is that they violate every single facet of journalist ethics. To be fair there is a good share of those in India. The problem is not with American journalists. The real problem in USA is the attention span of the public. Corporate ownership of media is a limited issue. ``

You are in love with your country (and I understand that) so you have to side with them and see Pakistani media through Indian or ``Western`` media eyes.... The issue is that till you get out of that framework, I can’t make you see the realities...

In 1996 American Secretary of commerce and industry addressing a workshop organized by us said, Pakistan’s soil for fruits especially Sahiwal is better than Florida’s country soil...the potential of FDI in the engineering industry is great too...but the problem is media, honestly your government should take CNN and BBC by the horns those have distorted the image. Till it does so, people’s image about Pakistan will not change, and a single person like me who knows the truth can’t do anything...`` (Indian media now has joined the two medias, if not surpassed them). It was the same workshop where we were informed that Indian Suzuki (you call it maruti) wanted to import from Pakistan some Suzuki parts as Pakistani manufactured were of very good quality parts and would have costed them cheaper than importing from Japan or Korea, but Indra Ghandi warned the MD in person that she would rather see the factory closed for which even a nut & bolt is to be imported from Pakistan. You can verify it from your suzuki/maruti owner. With such feelings at the top, Indian media needs to follow the same, and Indian public can never appreciate the other side...I don`t know how much to share with you my experiences...but once you have step out of your shell I know you will be able to find a lot more...

``what environmental degradation ?? ``
I don’t know what to say...it so much of ignorance in this sentence, but I understand again as everyone need not to be aware of every thing. The amount of bombs fired were the highest since the Second World War...more than they fired even in Iraq or else where...

``Your support of the Taliban based on common crime statistics is pathetic. Stalin`s Russia was safe from crime too. The Taliban is largely responsible for ethnic bitterness between Pusthuns and Tajiks, Hazaras etc. May be that is why Pakistanis are so fond of it.``

Ignoring the use of adjective by you here is the fact from my point of view...A generation which is born under the soviets invasion followed by the guerilla war over a period of 22 years, should not be expected to be reasonable like those living in peaceful environment from the day one of coming into power or even in next 5 years...the world ignored them and even US left the after getting its mission completed of Soviet defeat. Pakistan was left alone to deal with the generation that knew nothing but war and was fully equipped by weapons provided by the US. This new generation was a different breed and I would say that Pakistan managed them pretty well during their initial phase, and before things could be brought to better, it was forced by US to change its stance. The ``ethnic bitterness`` you mentioned, should be blamed on first to the soviets and the world at large before putting on Talibans who put all sorts of embargos on them.

``India does not have a border with Afghanistan. India had poor relations with Iran in 1979. I do not think they could do anything to stop the Soviets.``

Re: # 15 Mr Arjun M ..you seems extremely happy due this English terror problem.
You enjoy miseries. You are so happy that this will tarnish good name of pakistan and paksistani people. You should have sad for loss of life but you are having time of your life. Pakistanis are very sad ok. These are ENGLISH not pakistanise so is English problem ot Pakistani problem.
You are recist. The English court majistrate has declared ``Paki`` as detogatory word and person uttering such bad stuff can be prosecuted in England.

For your knowledge refer us as ``Pakistanies `` not pakis as you refer all time. Also refer as Pakistan or Islamic republics of Pakistan and not as ``Pakiland``.
I do not think you are going follow my suggestion.
Anyway you have time of life so please enjoy all time at others miseries.
I never refer Indoa/Bharat as Land of Kafirs or as some refer to India as bunch of chicken headed Kufrstan as we as decent, modest and cultured.

Re: # 11

nidihash

“i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.”

I am sorry dear nidhiash (I don’t know your sex either) that you got personal and serious about an episode which in my view was more comic in nature than tragic. It was, as the story goes, first a mullah, then NGOs and finally the trial Session Court, which blew the matter out of proportion. Naturally the media also stepped in and made the best use of it adding fuel to the fire.

Now coming to the question what I meant by ‘fecking honour’ with reference to the Mai’s rape episode.

You know it was the alleged violation of ‘honour’ of a Mastoi woman which necessitated the holding of village Punchayat (Peoples’ Court). The Mai and her family seemed to be in a compromising situation and therefore wanted to apologize for the misconduct of her brother. Now there are two versions about what happened afterwards. May’s supporters say, the panchayat decided that as a matter of justice, Mai should be raped by Mastoi’s to avenge violation of their ‘honour’ violated by her brother. But according to the other party the Mai was not raped but married (nikahfied) to the brother of the Mastoi woman who was ‘dishonoured’ by Mai’s brother. No independent inquiry having been held in the matter there are as many stories as many mouths. But as the courts inquiry goes the proceedings and judgment of the Multan High Court still holds the ground which did not give any credence to the evidence in support of the accusation of rape of Mai. Do you think dear every body should sit in judgment over a case when one knows nothing even about the bare facts of the case? As you go, you want to dishonour Mai by insisting that she was raped when the court says there was no evidence to that effect.

Now what a display of ‘fecking honour’ was made in Mirwala when allegedly Mai was being dragged for ‘rape’ before the very eyes of her biraadari including her father and her young brother in compliance with the judgement of the Panchayat. I cannot imagine such a scene even in ‘that bazaar’. I can’t believe that people even of the lowest caste can be so devoid of any sense of ‘fecking honour’ that they allow such a thing to happen without any demur. In fact no body stood up as there was perhaps no ground for standing up and it was only the suo moto action taken by the trial court after a number of days that such a halla gulla was raised by NGOs, etc., etc.

In fact I believe sex as such is not a matter falling in the domain of ethics or morals. It is purely a matter of culture. In Shariah if one accuses somebody of ‘Zina’ (irregular sex with a free person, other than one’s own slave) he is obliged to bring forth four valid eye witnesses of the crime otherwise he himself is liable to be penalized severely. As regards rape, you would have learnt about a ‘Fatwa’ issued recently by Deoband in case of a rape of a woman by her father-in-law in India. They held that in consequence of her alleged rape the woman has automatically become the wife of her father-in-law. In fact this is the adoption of a Judaistic law which makes the rapist accept the victim as his wife apparently to mitigate her dishonour. Now listen what the Wiseman of China, the great Confucius, says about rape. He advises that if you feel the rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it. I would personally act upon his advice if ever I were subjected to rape albeit by the opposite sex. I envy Mukhtaran Mai that she is lucky to have the best of the two, nay , rather three worlds and is so happy. Only the NGOs seem now to be feeling chillies in their hinds out of jealousy perhaps.

sifzal #25

`` Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one... ``

The problem with the some in the biased Pakistani media is that they violate every single facet of journalist ethics. To be fair there is a good share of those in India. The problem is not with American journalists. The real problem in USA is the attention span of the public. Corporate ownership of media is a limited issue.

`` over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest.... ``

what environmental degradation ??

The initial phase of the US military action lasted 4-5 weeks. Most of the aircraft F/A-18 took off from two aircraft carriers in the Arabian Sea. The B-52 spent more time wandering around looking for targets than dropping any bombs.

If you accuse the Soviets of destroying the place I can live with you.

Your support of the Taliban based on common crime statistics is pathetic. Stalin`s Russia was safe from crime too. The Taliban is largely responsible for ethnic bitterness between Pusthuns and Tajiks, Hazaras etc. May be that is why Pakistanis are so fond of it.

`` Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention ``

India does not have a border with Afghanistan. India had poor relations with Iran in 1979. I do not think they could do anything to stop the Soviets.

Pakistani elite made a decision to support Islamic groups over secular/nationalist groups in the Afghan civil war. Don`t blame USA. They had no choice but to go along. Don`t blame General Zia and his generals. You want the Taliban and you have them. If you like them so much make Pakistan an Islamic emirate. Most of the Taliban leaders are hiding in Pakistan. Quit being a hypocrite.

Don`t blame USA for the opium. How does the opium get out of Afghanistan ? I am sure nothing comes through Pakistan to the outside world.

`` He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve... ``

Then why criticize USA for toppling Saddam ? For the record I do not support USA invasion of Iraq for other reasons.

A guy spent all of his life while praying and worshiping God so one day he thought about having something very materialistic but satisfactory for a change so he climbed a mountain and asked the God for power, the power to do any good or bad with out being answerable to any one, in reply there was silence.

He thought that he isn’t speaking loud so he yelled and requested God for the Power to do any good or bad, once again silence so the guy thought and this time really yelled with full force and requested God for Power – all of the sudden an angel came from the sky and asked the guy to come with him.

The angel took that person to the Devil and told him that this man desires for The Power.

Devil looked at the guy with a smile, handed him a Pakistani Passport and asked him that would you like to become the Military Dictator, Politician or a Religious Leader in Pakistan?

---

It is sad but very true that today our leaders and protectors have become the biggest abusers of power and authority.

We all can talk and argue about million things related to the posting “Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?” By Xari Jalil but such abusive way of thinking is a part of our heritage and culture.

Good Posting Xari Jalil.

Ref# 19

[Do you have any evidence to prove this ?]

Top 25 countries and the total number of recorded rapes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap

US tops the list with 89,110 rapes, followed by South Africa and Canada. India ranks fifth in that list with 15,468 rapes. Pakistan does not make the top 25 list, though it is the 5th most populous country in the world. The number of rapes appear to be less than 1250/year based on that data (still nothing to be proud off).

Few more stats for your perusal:

Rape Facts (US)

•Rape is the fastest growing violent crime in The United States. (Center for Disease Control and Prevention, 1994)
•In the United States, a woman is raped every 6 minutes. (Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center of the National Victims Center, 1992)
•The rate of sexual assault in the United States is the highest of any industrialized nation in the world. (Reiso and Roth, 1993)
•1 in 4 women will be a victim of sexual violence at some point in her lifetime. (Warshaw, R. 1988. I Never Called It Rape. Harper and Row).
•1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by age 18. (Walker, L. 1988. Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children)
•An estimated 92,700 men are forcibly raped each year in the United States. (Tjaden and Thoennes, 1998)

It is difficult to get the latest numbers for Pakistan. I’ll post as soon as I find them. An excerpt from the US State Department Report is attached for your perusal.

TITLE: PAKISTAN HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES, 1994
AUTHOR: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DATE: FEBRUARY 1995

[“Rape is a widespread problem, although there was a slight
decline in the reported incidence of rape during 1994 compared
to 1993. There were about 800 cases of rape reported in the
press during the year.”]

You can read the complete report at: http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/democracy/1994_hrp_report/94hrp_report_sasia/Pakistan.html

[Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ? ]

The initial trial was handled by the Anti-terrorism court under the
Ordinance; “Anti-Terrorism (Amendment) Ordinance 1999”, for the purpose of providing a speedy trial for the case. That law provides that any act intended to create civil commotion would be triable in ATA court. In retrospect, that “speedy trial” created more problems than it solved.

Don’t get me wrong. I am on your side and have been on “Mai’s side” since the beginning.

Ref# 20

[No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse.]

I am aware of that and thus used only the word “alleged molestation charges”. Please see: Jackson charges in full http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19389-1464844,00.html

With reference to your other questions:

Ejaculation is not a prerequisite. In fact, approximately 30% of rapists are unable to ejaculate.

Penetration of genitalia, however slight is sufficient to establish rape. In oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio) even penetration is not required.

The concept of “force” comes under the “legal consent designation. The common law says: The victim may submit by force, by gesture, or by threat of death, physical injury, pain or kidnapping to be inflicted upon the victim or a third party, or by any other means which would compel a reasonable person under the circumstances to submit. It is not required that the victim resist such force or threat to the utmost, or to resist if resistance would be futile or foolhardy, but the victim need resist only to the extent that it is reasonably necessary to make the victim`s refusal to consent known to the defendant.

Re: # 17
Dear bbabu
``What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine. ``

Please read the two presses together, especially in a third country and you will come to know who is more biased...I never claimed they are not. If you still are unable to, please let me know and I will give you few examples. On the personal experiences sides, It would take me ages to tell you the incidences at various international forums...for instance, ask your Shabana Azami when she represented India and ended her speech with a Pakistani poet’s Urdu words without proper reference in Melbourne in the year 2001...let me move on to the second one...

``tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.``

over 100,000 as per the first report and the carpet bombing has resulted into environment degradation which will last for next 100 years! I personally did not liked Taliban, for the reasons which are pure Islamic, so let it remain with me...but nevertheless let me come to your point. Taliban had placed a law and order situation, which ensured all sorts of criminal activities thinkable by any criminal...no thefts, no rape...the final thing they did was stopping the cultivation of poppy resulting into heroine...few weeks later more than $500 billion loss resulted in a developed country`s banking transactions, and was on a continuous decline...and reaction - well most of us knows the rest....

Tell me where was the world when Afghanistan was raided by a superpower, destroying their economy devastating their land and killing their people, when so called friends turned their back to them because Soviets were more powerful friends?! The only thing done was to put trade and military embargo...the civilised world response! and than came the second superpower with the help of another country to train and supply military to the generation to be known as Taliban! than the world has courage to put blame on the third country alone...amazing isn`t it...! is it because it fears the Superpower? or is it because it gave $3 trillion package despite its policy to have economic embargo for nuclear explosion...no my young fellow thanks to China and Pakistan for being in India`s neighbourhood, else it would not have received so much attention

``I did not see Iraq included in your ratings when Saddam was in charge.``
He was a cruel ruler doing wrong things to his own people...I have not much feelings for him...he is getting what he deserve...

``nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love. ``
Every one is responsible for his own environment. I am doing whatever I am qualified and have gained experienced for. For peace...I have been trainer of the moderators to moderate on behalf of UNESCO around the world. Nevertheless, communicatring my message to madrassas is still on my wish list, which at the moment does not seems to be materializing soon.

My young fellow, you are not too far off the track..keep on researchoing and explore and experience with open mind...you will be amazed of what you were make believed and what is the truth...once you know...it is sad you are unable to tell the whole world about it...many died in the past many will in the future by the civilized societies...!

I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.

Hi arjun,
Yes. I have to keep switching nics to keep them confused. It`s guerilla warfare. I get so mad sometimes that I feel like like .... never mind :)
I notice that you have been quite busy the last few days. That`s a lot of research, my friend.
Salim

hey salim....in trouble with the thread nazis?

Muzzling people so they don`t embarrass the establishment is an age-old practice in Pakistan. Press censorship, selective editing, and coercion are commonplace in the Land of the Pure. What the military regime did is no different than what Chowk does. Messages and threads of individual interactors are blatantly erased, while those of their opponents, usually Chowk`s favorites (so-called ``liberal and progressive`` Pakis) are left intact. I guess this is one way to win arguments and present an untarnished image of the realm. What goes around comes around. The only difference is whose ox is being gored. A thousand curses on Pakis and their suppression of truth.
Salim

KHAMKHWA IS A KHASSEY
KHAmKHWA IS A KHASSEY

DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA

KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO
KHAMKHWA IS A GIGOLO

DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA
DHIN DHINAK DHIN DHA

nauman9 #18

`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``


No child in MJ case ever alleged he sodomized him. There was so semen, no fractured asshole, no evidence of any forced abuse. There were witnesses alleging they saw MJ do something to someone. Their testimonies were discredited owing to their being interested parties.

nauman9 #18

`` 3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out. ``

Why does an anti-terrorism court have to handle a common rape case ?

`` 4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.``

Do you have any evidence to prove this ?


`` Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children. ``

If Michael Jackson was not convicted it is lack of evidence. In USA a jury decides if a defendant is guilty. The jury is twelve of your fellow citizens.

Xari Jalil:

I agree with the sentiment reflected in the article. There is no doubt that putting Mai on exit control list was a lousy PR move on the part of the government. It back-fired.

I failed to acknowledge your effort as an author, initially. Please accept my apologies.

Few corrections for the records:

1) Mai was not raped by twelve men. A total of fourteen people were indicted, four for rape and the rest were from the tribal jirga for their role in the crime.

2) Hudood Ordinance was not passed thirty years ago (close! It passed in 1979).

3) Swift justice was provided by the anti-terrorism court which handed out capital punishments to six convicts. It is unfortunate that it was later overturned by the High court based on technicalities. Now the case is with the Supreme Court. We have to wait and see how it pans out.

4) The incidence of rape in Pakistan is not on the rise, it has remained the same ( much lower than the civilized world). Such crimes including gang-rape does not occur ``everyday`` as you have indicated.

Legal loop holes do exist in other systems, as well. It is not always easy to prosecute all criminals, all the time. One recent example is of the US courts where they failed twice to convict Micheal Jackson on alleged molestations charges of young children.

sifzal #14

`` I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves… ``

What makes you think Pakistani media is not biased ? I get the feeling the Urdu press in Pakistan is no better than Nazi propaganda machine.

`` Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself… ``

His comments were in poor taste.

`` What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on… ``

Tell me how many people died in US military actions in Afghanistan. Contrast that with the mess created by the Taliban which was supported by Pakistani military.

I did not see Iraq included in your rantings when Saddam was in charge.

More people have died in Sudan than Iraq in the past 10 years. Yet you did not include Sudan.

`` I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…” ``

nothing stops you from going to madrassas and preaching love.

who tarnished pakistan`s ``image``.

pakistan tarnished pakistan`s ``image.``

that`s right...the west is racist and ignorant...pakis, OTOH, are just innocent birds of peace....


New wave of British terrorists are taught at schools, not in the mountains

HIS family were perplexed when Shehzad Tanweer decided to drop out of his sports science course at Leeds Metropolitan University at the end of last year so he could travel to Pakistan.

He told them that he desperately wanted to join a group of friends from his local mosque on a two-month visit to a religious school near Lahore.

The 22-year-old joked with his parents that he would pick up his education when he came back, adding that it would also give him the chance to visit relatives in his father’s hometown, Faisalabad, which was only 100 miles away.

Hasib Hussain’s family thought him spending some time with his relatives in Pakistan might curb the teenager’s rebellious streak and stop him spending his time hanging around street corners in Holbeck, drinking beer with local youths.

His parents thought their plan had worked when Hussain got back, a much calmer figure and with a new found enthusiasm about pursuing his Muslim faith.

Both families are now left asking themselves whether it was their sons’ journeys to their homeland that corrupted them.

Tanweer’s uncle, Bashir Ahmed, has no doubts that it was faceless figures in Pakistan who radicalised his sports-mad nephew.

“He was such a calm, loving normal boy. Extremists must have got their hands on him,” the 65-year-old Leeds businessman said yesterday.

“We all thought he had gone to continue his education. I thought he just wanted to improve his pronunciation.

“It wasn’t him. It must have been forces behind him.”

British intelligence has asked its Pakistani counterparts urgently to trace where the young Britons went, and more crucially who they met, during their study tours.

Officers need to know if the four bombers were ever there at the same time, or attended the same radical training schools.

The Pakistani authorities this week angrily denied accusations from India that terror training camps were once more thriving inside their borders.

Natwar Singh, the Indian Foreign Minister, replied that he had the photographs to prove it.

Western intelligence agencies have also long been concerned about the network of madrassas, the hardline religious schools, which have been blamed for turning out a generation of young jihadis. One institution which has been under recent scrutiny is in the industrial city of Gujranwala, which is just north of Lahore — where Tanweer was heading.

This new generation of training centres are nothing like their predecessors which were run by al-Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks on the US and were sited in the inhospitable mountain ranges straddling the Afghan border.

Western volunteers lived rough in the desert with hundreds of other foreign recruits and were taught to handle weapons and explosives, as well as spending hours listening to tape recordings of Osama bin Laden and other zealots.

“Today the camps are more like youth hostels,” one young activist who attended a madrassa in southern Pakistan told The Times.

“Recruits don’t spend hours scrabbling about on outward bound courses. It is more like being in a school room.”

“Organisers don’t want to turn out warriors who can strip down a Kalashnikov rifle blindfolded. They want to shape the mind, not the body.

“They want their recruits to embrace the idea of giving their lives for their cause, and doing nothing more technical than triggering the bomb they carry.”

There are long periods of Koranic study but also what organisers call “the evolution of the jihad”, which teaches how wars are no longer a battle between rival armies.

Heroic accounts of the lives — and deaths — of insurgents in Iraq are told to the class to instruct recruits: “We fight the enemy our way.”

In some cases it is young Britons who have moved from Britain to make a new life for themselves in Pakistan who lecture their fellow citizens, “to make them feel more at ease”.

“These British lecturers know how to give practical instructions like ‘don’t go to well-known radical mosques in the UK as they are under police surveillance. Don’t wander into bookshops which sell violent vidoes and militant literature as they too are being watched’.

“We were told, ‘Continue being an ordinary John’,” the former activist said.

The bombers from the backstreets of Leeds followed their instructions to the letter.

They were always seen in baggy jeans, training shoes, short haircuts and were cleanshaven, even when they turned up at the local mosque for Friday prayers.

Tanweer’s family say they cannot remember him arguing about politics. Hussain’s relatives say there was nothing aggressive in his views about how British Muslims should behave.

Experts say there is little point trying to identify the groups who recruit the young Britons because nowadays they change their names and websites with bewildering frequency.

The Harakat al-Ansar group has had five names in the past two years.

The other practical problems for the security authorities is that there is such an enormous traffic of young Britons travelling to Pakistan to visit family that it is impossible for the police to keep tabs on them, particularly when the vast majority go there for entirely innocent reasons.

There are reports of new training centres springing up around Mansehra in the North West Frontier Province, though it is not known if any British volunteers have pitched up there.

Magnus Ranstorp, director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St Andrews in Scotland said: “Of course there are still training camps.

“I don’t think you can find fully-fledged training camps in Pakistan or even Afghanistan on the same level as we had before.

“But there are many remote areas, many places where the lack of governance can provide excellent training ground. It can be done in underground shelters, abandoned houses. You don’t need large facilities.”

Some Pakistani-based militant groups are reported to still scout for recruits at mosques among Muslim communities in Britain.

Smaller British mosques have their own links with madrassas in the Punjab and other regions of Pakistan though they insist these are genuine schools of Koranic study, not terror training camps.

Well known militant groups, lsuch as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba and Harkat ul Mujahideen have operated openly in the past and in some cases with the military’s support, and boasted of their British recruits.

Mohammed Bilal, a Briton who was associated with Jaish-e-Mohammed, was the UK’s first suicide bomber when in Christmas Day 2000 he rammed a vehicle packed with explosives into an Indian military post in Kashmir.

Officially, the Pakistan government — a key ally of Britain and the US in the war on terror — insists they have eradicated the culture of terror camps inside their borders.

The experiences of Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain tell a different story.

Dear All
I saw the news revealing the tragedy of London, it made me sad and dismayed…but then I have seen things even more deplorable, things that are even worse …ignorance of mass in the west and even in the developing countries under the influence of foreign media which most of the time is biased, racist …or let me think are they ignorant themselves…

Reading #13 one can see in it a scavenger philosophy... worst thing is that the person does not know him/herself…

A Wiseman said, “One can never benefit from mingling up with the low and evil mentality folks…just as no matter how many grapes you put on a thorny bush, they can only get destroyed but would not bring fruit to the thorns…

What racism is, I only came to know when I started living with the “professionals” of the developed nations. When bombs strikes in the west, its terrorism because people not wearing a uniform do it. Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq suffers hundreds of thousands death by hundred of thousands uniform people…no mourning, no photo just a normal thing so move on…

I only wish I could tell the misguided young ones…that taking lives of innocents or for that matter of your own is just not allowed in Islam – its an unforgivable sin…so I turned to their souls and said the same, they responded…”we know and we are sorry, but we had to do it to make them realize how is it to live in pain and fear as they have made many nations to live with...” I responded, “it still not justify your act”…and they whispered away saying…”we did what we thought was right and to make them think…but it doesn’t matter to us anymore, for now we have done our deeds … and finished with the earthly life…”

Latest on the `war on terror`.The british PM says `extremists will be deported`.What if they`re born in britain but of pak descent ?.If i were pak, and in the UK, i would start packing.Every pak can be deemed to be a terrorist.We indians can offer to help you out by buying your properties at 50 pence on the pound.Better than nothing!!!.I try.

Re: # 5

Nauman Sahib.....what part of `pak origin` don`t you understand?.And, please ask the international,oh, the BRIT media especially, why they keep referring to these men as british born of pak descent??.Write to the UN!!!.

#7 by teshah

``No honourable woman would have behaved like her.``

absolutely right. i suppose according to you an `honourable` woman, after being brutally gang-raped, would have either committed suicide or would have shut up and put up.

i don`t know if you are a man or woman, either way i can safely say that you have no fecking clue what honour or being honourable means. in part it means to not stay quiet in the face of injustice, whether it`s perpetrated against others or against yourself.

It is clear that only Pakistanis are to be blamed in such a context just like the Saudis. Very easy to blame economic factors that lead to men becoming fanatics but hasn`t our government policies of socalled Islamization to be blamed equally?

nauman: still in denial?

Pakistan wakes up to the hatred within
(Filed: 14/07/2005)

Ahmed Rashid reports on the link between Lahore and Leeds that has flourished over two generations but may now have been hijacked by militant Islamic fundamentalists

For the past few days at dinner parties, bazaars and newspaper offices in Lahore there has only been one topic of conversation, the fear and expectancy that the London bombers would turn out to be Pakistani.

Most were convinced that that would be the case and when the truth came out they were immediately on their mobiles, spreading the news repeating: ``What did I tell you, I told you so, this will really be the last straw.``

Many were depressed at the thought of being dubbed a nation that could export a handful of terrorists along with T-shirts, Sufi music and mangoes.

Until Tuesday the fear of a Right-wing backlash against Pakistanis living in Britain had also dominated the headlines. That is because Pakistanis are deeply sensitive about their own, even though after 58 years they still cannot agree on the nature of their nation - Islamic fundamentalist or democratic.

Those who have lived in Bradford and Leeds for two generations still come home to marry, party, holiday and celebrate religious festivals such as Eid, or Ramadan, the month of fasting.

Flights to and from London are packed in the summer.

Youngsters in sneakers, the latest jeans and speaking English in broad Yorkshire accents can be heard in Lahore`s shopping malls during any holiday period.

However more conservative parents in Yorkshire take leave of absence for their teenage sons from their British schools and send them home to study for a couple of terms. They either join madrassas - Islamic schools - or secular schools, learning Urdu, the Koran and making friends.

Those boys who join madrassa boarding schools are often indoctrinated with fundamentalist views and return home to Yorkshire changed people - urging their sisters to cover their heads and their friends to pray regularly.

In the winter of 2002 Maulana Akram Awan, a fundamentalist religious leader and politician from Chakwal in central Punjab, set up camp outside Islamabad with thousands of followers. He threatened to march on the capital to force the military regime to enforce Islamic law.

Among those camping out in the fields with him were dozens of madrassa students from Yorkshire. The elite`s fear of a backlash against British Pakistanis is heightened by the fact that London is their second home, the favourite holiday destination to escape the summer heat, shop till they drop and still the best place to send their children to university. Now, during the summer sales, a visiting Pakistani can hardly walk down a street in Knightsbridge or Kensington without bumping into a Pakistani he knows from home.

On Tuesday night the first thought for many of them was how suspiciously they would be viewed when they showed their passports at Heathrow. But when they sit down to reflect as more emerges about the London bombers, they are likely to become even more depressed.

It is already clear that one or two of the bombers visited Pakistan recently, possibly to train with an extremist group.

For the past two decades a small number of militants have killed and maimed their fellow citizens in the name of Islam, various Islamic sects or self-created concepts of male honour. These killing fields in the name of Islam, abhorred by the majority of their fellow citizens, were then exported abroad where Pakistani militant groups supported fellow extremists in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Central Asia, Chechnya and the former Yugoslavia.

Pakistani extremists have been closely linked to the army which saw in them a cheap and non-attributable opportunity to keep India at bay, maintain the country`s Islamic influence abroad and undermine any chance of civilian democracy at home.

This ``military-mullah`` alliance is widely assumed to have been born in 1977 after the army coup that bought General Zia Ul Haq to power. However in a new book called Pakistan - between Mosque and Military, scholar-diplomat Hussain Haqqani shows how the alliance goes back as far as 1951.

Many Pakistanis hoped that September 11 2001 would give the army a chance to change its disastrous policies and end its alliance with the mullahs.

General Pervez Musharraf`s military regime could make peace with Afghanistan and India, crack down hard on militant groups and turn its back on extremism.

Gen Musharraf promised a policy of enlightened moderation but little has been done. Thousands of religious schools still spew out hate against non-Muslims and leaders of militant groups still wander the country giving sermons.

Gen Musharraf has squandered the lavish aid and support given to him by the US and Britain after September 11. Extremism continues to flourish and democracy is further away than ever.

This month the widely circulated magazine Herald reports that a dozen training camps for militants, which closed down after September 11, were revived in May with official blessing.

Last month several Pakistani-Americans arrested on terrorism charges in California, admitted to training in such camps. The London bombers were probably in touch with a local Pakistani group rather than al-Qa`eda.

Pakistanis are fed up with being in the eye of the storm and just want to lead a normal life. They want to see an end to violence at home and a bad image abroad. When that will happen is anybody`s guess.

nauman9 #5

Cayenne and bbabu:

`` The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.

A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations. ``

For the record I do not think the ancestry decides criminal activity. Culture might !!!

Let us not pretend there is no connection between conservative nature of some British Pakistani immigrants, militancy of some Islamic clerics, their visits to Pakistan and their suicide bombings.

The simplest question to ask why should these individuals conduct a suicide bombing. They could placed the bombs anywhere in the subway or on any crowded bus and slipped out. Yeah they could be caught. But the bombs would have killed their targets. By committing suicide who are they protecting. Let me guess the mastermind of the plot wants to protect some murderous thug hiding in Pakistan. I am not referring to Osama Bin Laden.

`` If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.``

Satish and Deepak Kalpoe are Indians probably by genes. They are citizens of Surinam. They are culturally quite alien to contemporary Indian society. There is no record of them visiting India. Indians in Surinam are too poor to afford a plane ticket to India. Plus they might not have any relatives in India.

Xari
A presumptuous harangue, isn`t it? There are contradicting stories about the rape of my, mostly hearsay. The High Court says there was no evidence of rape of Mai. It nevertheless sentenced one accused who confessed that he had sex with Mai but not as a rapist but as her husband. Mai denied having honourable sex as a wife as terming it as rape seemed more preferable and profitable to her. No honourable woman would have behaved like her. As for the rulers less said the better. They all got their faces blackened by bestowing extraordinary favoures on the low-caste Mai who later on got into the hands of NGOs, all with their selfish agendas. Thanks to my, the rulers, the judicial system, the NGOs all stand exposed now. Only the Mai gets rich and famous, proving the truth of the saving of a Punjabi sage-cum-poet Mian Mohammad Bakhsh:

Neechaan di ashnai kolon feiz kisse nah paaya
kikar te angoor charhaya te har guchha zakhmaya

#5 by nauman9 on July 13, 2005 6:34pm PT



I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.


One of the bombers was a wild teen...A trip to Pakiland and hey presto...he becomes a suicide bomber....I`m sure there`s no connection....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693289,00.html
The uncle of Shehzad Tanweer anxiously insists that his nephew must have fallen under the influence of radical Muslims when he went to Pakistan last year.

If your argument is true then it would be fair to say



You could say it and your paki brethren would buy it....but the rest of the world doesn`t see it that way...unfortunately(for you), the world agrees what what the Indians think about a majority of pakis being pro-jihadi if not jihadi...and how Pakiland is a breeding ground for terrorism..

Ref # 2:[Pakistanis tarnish the name of pakistan!!.]
Ref # 3:[Those four Pakistanis in Britain are going to do wonders to Pakistan`s image.]

Cayenne and bbabu:

The suspected bombers are Britons who killed their own people for reasons, unclear at the moment. They are not Pakistanis. Period.

A “particular descent” does not make one prone to a particular type of criminal activity. I do not believe that Pakistani people have “bomber genes” in them, which can be passed on to their successive generations.

If your argument is true then it would be fair to say that “Indians are tarnishing the image of India” as shown by two brothers of Indian descent; Satish and Deepak Kalpoe by their probable involvement in the murder/disappearance of Natalee Holloway in Aruba.

Honestly written (I like this change from some of the garbage being peddled right now.) it could be reorganized slightly to increase its focus and ``punch``.

[On paper we have many laws that claim to protect women, …]
I honestly wish that in the South Asian subcontinent, we would stop “protecting” the women so much! Then, maybe they will have a chance to catch up.

[We are indeed a callous society that such rapes occur everyday and none of us have done anything to pressurize the government.]
Is it mere callousness, or fear for one’s own?

#3 by bbabu
[I don`t know what kind of games the establishment in Islamabad are up to.]
The most popular game is called “protect own rear first”, with “protect your kursi” a close second, and “protect your coterie” in number three position.

I don`t know what kind of games the establishment in Islamabad are upto. Those four Pakistanis in Britain are going to do wonders to Pakistan`s image.

Pakistanis tarnish the name of pakistan!!.Who can best the four pak origin guys in the UK, for tarnishing the name of pakistan.Why beat on this hapless woman, Mai?.

A good article.

``........have become part of our social ( ?????)culture..........``


``......... that it was done so that she wouldn’t blemish the image of the country.............``

What image??

``.......The religious leaders rant and rave almost all the time about various non issues and hold protests off and on, but how many clerics have raised the issue of rape seriously, and have actually done something about it? None. Anyhow, one cannot expect too much from religious leaders as theirs is a myopic point of view that revolves only around tearing off billboards, and attempting to stop mixed marathons; ....................``

well said..........most religious institutions suffer from the same disease..........useless `sosha`............sikhs (religious leaders/bodies) are also infamous for such hijrapan.