Who Tarnished the Image of Pakistan?

The chivalrous male population of Punjab, the total 60% of total population do have their own way DOING THINGS. This only is the grand reason that we have a nuclear weapon but no law, system or civic sence. In all the instances came up during 10/15 years time, all happened in Punjab, where ladies were raped in front of people, the whole population stood massaging their genitalia instead of doing something to stop this crime. Then international media picks up the news ``IT HAPPENED IN PAKISTAN``, HEY, EXCUSE ME, anybody tell me if this had happened in Karachi...? nada. Sinee the Government is loaded with all major Political figures from Punjab, they try their best to save the culprits as some of them might be their cousins etc. Govt`s attitude towards these rape victim is like these
ladies are ``UNWILLING RECIPIENT OF HUMAN SPERM``. So whats the deal here, I nobody gives an F over there, cause they are busy and willing to put a Pak flag on top fo their houses, AAAAH, FREEDOM TASTES AND SMELL SO GOOOOD.

sifzal #51

Re: # 50
``To say India needs the help of a foreign power is preposterous. It is always Pakistan that has been been afraid of Indian numerical edge. ``

`` bbabu fear from the world is not in the dictionary of a true Muslim. ``

Is the reasoning for this the same as 10 pak soldiers equal to one Indian soldier ?

`` I commented somewhere on Chowk that if India kept on getting their leaders like those of the present times, it has all the potential to assume second largest economy position in next 30 years. But the history and realities of practical life makes it a distant reality, nevertheless it can still perform well and ensure its 250 million people also comes out of poverty line. Another amazing reality is that Pakistan has always come up with surprises. Despite not having India like US and Soviet backing and support in the economic and nuclear fields it has proved to be matching up with India; technical analysis of nuclear testing suggest Pakistan to be more advanced than India. I have a feeling it will remain doing so in future. ``

Pakistan has received three times more foreign aid from USA on a per captia basis than India. Pakistan has received large amounts of money from Gulf states. This offsets any Soviet economic assistance.

What does Pakistan export ? Two thirds of Pakistani exports are textiles. After 57 years Pakistan has one steel mill, one oil refinery and no semiconductor foundries. Just what do you think you are going to export ?

India has underperformed due to license raj and poor infrastructure. The billions of dollars earned from IT is giving the Indian government a second chance to implement infrastructure projects needed to lift millions out of poverty. Why are we talking about a gas pipeline from Iran to India in 2005 ? The natural gas was always there in Iran. India and Pakistan were to the east of Iran. The only thing that is making it possible is the fact India is rich enough to buy the natural gas and make the project financially viable.

`` My all good wishes and prayers for Pakistan`s prosperity with real (not the media hyped extremist) Islamic values and sincere wishes that the two countries do live peacefully (I hope it does not remain a wishful thinking). ``

Until Pakistan wraps up all these dealings with Al Qaeda and Taliban they will be mired in instability.

sifzal #49

````You found it noteworthy to mention Pakistani company wanted to export Suzuki auto parts to Maruti in India. I have a hard time believing that you cannot remember the company name``...``

`` Over here we are talking in all sincerity...not making things up, at least that’s what I am doing, and I hope you are as well. Eventually I did recall the name...I hope you got it in the previous message. ``

okay I will give you the benefit of doubt.


`` Till Mid 1990s India had a very closed economy as compared to Pakistan. Pakistani products being exposed to international competition were therefore of high quality and therefore had an edge over Indian products. India manufacturers on the other hand were manufacturing on a large scale and therefore had advantage over cost as compared to Pakistan. It makes sense for a business person to look for products those are of better quality and are cheaper as well, it therefore did made sense for maruti manufacturer to request Indian government to allow them to buy from Pakistan. I think it would have been much wiser if you could have got in touch with Maruti and got this verified. Merely brushing aside other arguments based on personal whims doesn`t make sense, or does it? ``

It is true Pakistan was exposed to international competition. Usually that meant import of foreign goods.

Indian government liberalized the cement, two wheeler, color television and a bunch of other insignificant industries in the 1980-1985 timeframe. The two wheeler industry has always been competitive since the early 1980s. The TVS group was far more sophisticated than anything Pakistan could have in the 1980s. Search for ``TVS``, ``quality``` and ``awards`` on Google.

It is irrelevant that Maruti could have would have and should have ordered. It never happened. I have seen proposals where Toyota exported trucks from India to Pakistan and Camry sedans from Pakistan to India. Do you really think Pakistani workers can produce better Camry sedans than Japanese workers ? The only reason for silly Japanese proposals was to get around auto part duties and quotas. Japanese car companies are pretty good at that.

`` Let not expand our discussion to other countries ... nevertheless, I am surprised your mentioning of old soviet...yes you sure can say it now, and I am sure you will say it against USA one day too...not now for now it for you what old soviets were once. ``

Given the scope of their power USA is not a hard state. They have exhibited enormous restraint against Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran etc. They have forgiven old adversaries like Vietnam, Libya under Qadafi etc. They could bomb the crap of the Hezbollah in Lebanon. They have maintained intense pressure on human right violators like North Korea, Burma, Sudan etc. There is no reason why North Korean or Burmese generals would not kiss upto Bush if he lifted American sanctions on them.

`` Well India is lucky to have the support of big powers to help it against Pakistan on every occasion. When only once it tried to deal on its own it was losing wasn`t it? ``

First Pakistan never had the ability to seize large amounts of Indian territorry. Right now the Pakistani army would have a hard time marching 50-100 kilometers into Indian Punjab or Rajasthan. They have zero capability to sustain logistics for more than a few days. That is precisely the reason for intruding 5-10 miles in Kargil with a small number of commandos.
Otherwise send a division and seize the whole heights.

Second if Pakistan got lucky and caught India unprepared it does not have the ability to withstand the Indian military counter-attack.

The total number of long range PAF strikes into Indian territorry is one. In 1971 they tried to hit the Agra air force base without any luck.

To say India needs the help of a foreign power is preposterous. It is always Pakistan that has been been afraid of Indian numerical edge.

Re: # 50
``To say India needs the help of a foreign power is preposterous. It is always Pakistan that has been been afraid of Indian numerical edge. ``

bbabu fear from the world is not in the dictionary of a true Muslim.

Nevertheless, I may differ on the logics of your reasoning, but I will respect and appreciate your approach in this discussion which has gradually evolved towards fairness especially since the last two interacts. I also sincerely hope you do get more exposure to the facts of this world. I, for instance, have worked with the premier world organizations at a level where the parameters are designed and finalised based on which categorisation of development and welfare of countries are assessed. This world is a big stage show for words and statistics play. Both of these when projected through clever media the masses are moved. Not many escapes the magic webbed by this stage performance. I have seen this from the back of the stage, and I wish for you the same. I am sure you will agree, personal egos or state bigoted ness should not be allowed to take over the truth and justice.

I commented somewhere on Chowk that if India kept on getting their leaders like those of the present times, it has all the potential to assume second largest economy position in next 30 years. But the history and realities of practical life makes it a distant reality, nevertheless it can still perform well and ensure its 250 million people also comes out of poverty line. Another amazing reality is that Pakistan has always come up with surprises. Despite not having India like US and Soviet backing and support in the economic and nuclear fields it has proved to be matching up with India; technical analysis of nuclear testing suggest Pakistan to be more advanced than India. I have a feeling it will remain doing so in future.

My all good wishes and prayers for Pakistan`s prosperity with real (not the media hyped extremist) Islamic values and sincere wishes that the two countries do live peacefully (I hope it does not remain a wishful thinking).

sifzal #44

`` So you find it amazing that a person who has attended over 100 workshops participated by on average 30-40 companies, and seminars all around the world since 1987 is unable to recall name of the one participating company back in 1996! ... I knew I am wasting time here... ``

You found it noteworthy to mention Pakistani company wanted to export Suzuki auto parts to Maruti in India. I have a hard time believing that you cannot remember the company name. For the record India has a far more sophisticated auto parts industry than Pakistan.
Given the political tensions between India and Pakistan it beats me as to why Maruti would purchase those auto parts from Pakistan.

`` Your and arjun statements suggest that unlike me, you believe in might is right, that was the reason first you insisted England to be your masters even after 1947 independence of yours and annexed illegally many states even after accepting either them as part of Pakistan or remain independent, under the same master you were able to get into Kashmir. Then you found another master USSR and now USA, so whatever the Master does you find logics to justify it, and blame all on the others like in Taliban case you feel US justified ``had to do it`` but Pakistan all fully sovereign to make decision on its on!. Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson. ``

Despite your numerous grievances against India Indian state is a soft state. You want to know countries where might is right. Try North Korea, pre-1990 China, Vietnam, Burma, Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Syria unde late Assad, Sudan, old Soviet Union. They can teach you a thing or two about force.

If USSR and USA are masters to India I do not know how to characterize the relationship between Pakistan and other foreign states.

Try to win a war before you start boasting.

`` Come out of this slave mentality if you understand the meaning of freedom and learn to be friends, than slaves...but I know you will never understand for you are not free in mind as yet or in spirit and will keep harping the tune of your masters...Have reverence for Pakistan, for this is the land from which civilization entered into the land you now call India - the name you stole from the motherland Pakistan (India name is associated with Indus Valley; at the time of independence you tricked Jinnah and Mountbatin also mentioned Jinnah was furious...remember India was to be divided into Pakistan and Bharat...look partition time maps). You fall for glitter and not in a habit of doing research to know the truth behind! ``

What slave mentality ? Who is my master ?

Do you understand the meaning of freedom ? I have the right to choose my friends. Friendship is a privilege not a right.

What is this garbage about stealing names ? Did Pakistan steal the name Islamabad from Islam ?

The official name of India is Bharat.

`` Talk on BCCI and the name of the companies of international repute, first take the name of the relatively small company in Pakistan that has been exporting auto-parts to Korea, its Spel group of companies… coming to the next, I will respond when you will learn how to behave and use words while writing. ``

Please spare me this nonsense on behavior and writing skills. Stick to the facts and arguments. Shall we ?

Re: # 48

``You found it noteworthy to mention Pakistani company wanted to export Suzuki auto parts to Maruti in India. I have a hard time believing that you cannot remember the company name``...

Over here we are talking in all sincerity...not making things up, at least that’s what I am doing, and I hope you are as well. Eventually I did recall the name...I hope you got it in the previous message.

``For the record India has a far more sophisticated auto parts industry than Pakistan``

Till Mid 1990s India had a very closed economy as compared to Pakistan. Pakistani products being exposed to international competition were therefore of high quality and therefore had an edge over Indian products. India manufacturers on the other hand were manufacturing on a large scale and therefore had advantage over cost as compared to Pakistan. It makes sense for a business person to look for products those are of better quality and are cheaper as well, it therefore did made sense for maruti manufacturer to request Indian government to allow them to buy from Pakistan. I think it would have been much wiser if you could have got in touch with Maruti and got this verified. Merely brushing aside other arguments based on personal whims doesn`t make sense, or does it?

``Despite your numerous grievances against India Indian state is a soft state. You want to know countries where might is right. Try North Korea, pre-1990 China, Vietnam, Burma, Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Syria unde late Assad, Sudan, old Soviet Union``

Well bbabu, we sure have different dictionaries that define the term ``soft``....take a look at dec. 2002 times front cover (one of the four), and than explain me what is soft?

Let not expand our discussion to other countries ... nevertheless, I am surprised your mentioning of old soviet...yes you sure can say it now, and I am sure you will say it against USA one day too...not now for now it for you what old soviets were once.

``Try to win a war before you start boasting``
Well India is lucky to have the support of big powers to help it against Pakistan on every occasion. When only once it tried to deal on its own it was losing wasn`t it?

``Do you understand the meaning of freedom ? I have the right to choose my friends. Friendship is a privilege not a right.``

I am surprised still will commend you, the only sentence that does make sense and good one from my standards...so cheers for it is a good one, keep thinking and writing like this and I am sure I will find us on the same path, no need of any more arguments!

``Please spare me this nonsense on behaviour and writing skills. Stick to the facts and arguments. Shall we ?``
Smiles, bbabu, just read your previous and present messages, you will understand why I wrote that message last time

#44 by sifzal

[So you find it amazing that a person who has attended over 100 workshops participated by on average 30-40 companies, and seminars all around the world since 1987 is unable to recall name of the one participating company back in 1996!]

Numbers don`t amount to anything. It is the quality my dear.

[........and annexed illegally many states even after accepting either them as part of Pakistan or remain independent, under the same master you were able to get into Kashmir.]

What a sorry excuse! Just because you are unable to accept that you guys were beaten fair and square in a war, where the Indian troops, scrambled at a short notice routed Paki troops and pushed them back out of Kashmir, you don`t have to cook up stories as to how India was a stooge of some foreign power. That honor belongs entirely to Pakiland.

[Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson.]

What was the end result? Pakiland was kicked out of Kargil. Isn`t that what matters in a war?

[Come out of this slave mentality if you understand the meaning of freedom and learn to be friends, than slaves...but I know you will never understand for you are not free in mind as yet or in spirit and will keep harping the tune of your masters.]

Oh yeah! One glance at any Paki newspaper and you will know who the slave is and has been. First America, then China, and now America again.

[..Have reverence for Pakistan, for this is the land from which civilization entered into the land you now call India - the name you stole from the motherland Pakistan (India name is associated with Indus Valley; at the time of independence you tricked Jinnah and Mountbatin also mentioned Jinnah was furious...remember India was to be divided into Pakistan and Bharat...look partition time maps). You fall for glitter and not in a habit of doing research to know the truth behind!]

Are you sure you conducted `over a hundred workshops`? Can a man who speaks so childishly can ever be called upon to attend a workshop, let alone conduct it?

RE : #44 by sifzal on July 20, 2005 6:24pm PT

Dude the company you mentioned dosent even have its own website. Such companies who make pins and nails are in thousands on this side of the border. Frankly speaking it, seems you havent learnt what automobile industry is, even after hitting a century of workshops.
Industry is not your domain, so go home have some pindi chhole and relax.

BTW I saw the photographs of your famous Sitara car. It looks cute, only its 50 years out of date.

#44 by sifzal on July 20, 2005 6:24pm PT


but Pakistan all fully sovereign to make decision on its on!.


mmmkay...the paki generals make the decision to allow the US military to kill pakis on paki soil...

riiiight


Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson.


your generals never told you why, if India was losing in Kargil, did Nawaz Sharif had to rush to Washington on the 4th of july..and that too uninvited...most non-pakis would expect the leader of the losing side to rush to washington to beg for intervention... Of course, the question wouldn`t arise with most non-pakis who, seeing that India holds the land that was in contention in the Kargil war, would treat that as kind of a defeat for pakiland....

Re: # 42
So you find it amazing that a person who has attended over 100 workshops participated by on average 30-40 companies, and seminars all around the world since 1987 is unable to recall name of the one participating company back in 1996! ... I knew I am wasting time here...

Your and arjun statements suggest that unlike me, you believe in might is right, that was the reason first you insisted England to be your masters even after 1947 independence of yours and annexed illegally many states even after accepting either them as part of Pakistan or remain independent, under the same master you were able to get into Kashmir. Then you found another master USSR and now USA, so whatever the Master does you find logics to justify it, and blame all on the others like in Taliban case you feel US justified ``had to do it`` but Pakistan all fully sovereign to make decision on its on!. Pakistani Generals on their own entered into only Kargil and your general went on saying that Indian soldiers are being killed like stray dogs, had it not been your master you would have learned lot more lesson.

Come out of this slave mentality if you understand the meaning of freedom and learn to be friends, than slaves...but I know you will never understand for you are not free in mind as yet or in spirit and will keep harping the tune of your masters...Have reverence for Pakistan, for this is the land from which civilization entered into the land you now call India - the name you stole from the motherland Pakistan (India name is associated with Indus Valley; at the time of independence you tricked Jinnah and Mountbatin also mentioned Jinnah was furious...remember India was to be divided into Pakistan and Bharat...look partition time maps). You fall for glitter and not in a habit of doing research to know the truth behind!

Talk on BCCI and the name of the companies of international repute, first take the name of the relatively small company in Pakistan that has been exporting auto-parts to Korea, its Spel group of companies… coming to the next, I will respond when you will learn how to behave and use words while writing.

arjun_m #40

`` Name one Pakistani company that can hold it`s own in the world..an equivalent to Infosys or Wipro...or reliance or Moser-Baer....``

I thought BCCI was a good Pakistani company until they were exposed to be crooks and criminals.

sifzal #39

````Name the company. You conveniently dodged the question twice. ````

`` There are many companies manufacturing and exporting auto components including those for Suzuki in Pakistan. The workshop (1996) I referred to was also attended by many companies, and I do not remember names of the companies exporting those components as that was not the primary motive for me as an organizer and a moderator. Nevertheless, the person who revealed this information in the workshop was, to the best of my memory, Almas Haider (I recall his name because we played tennis once together in Lahore in 1986) who also owns one of such manufacturing plants, and has served one term as the President Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry (LCCI). I am afraid I do not have his direct numbers any more, but if you are really interested, you should be able to get his contacts through LCCI web site and verify the information I provided.``

If the company is worthwhile they would have found customers. Do not give me the BS about not being able to export to India.

````It is you who insists on the virtues of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. If they were so good impose on Pakistani public what was imposed in Afghanistan````

`` OK you request for Iraq like invasion on USA, Australia and India for killing hundreds of thousand of their own people and I will request for Taliban like rule in Pakistan...now this is tit for tat like response and not wish to pursue this sort of discussion, which is not meant for creativeness or knowledge. ``

Pakistani generals who created, financed and equipped the Taliban are capable of imposing Taliban rule on Pakistan. You do not any external help for this. There are plenty of Pakistanis on the chowk which could cheer.

I can request a Iraq style invasion of USA or India or Australia. I just do not know any of any entity that could accomplish it !!!

A couple of things i find really absurd on this board.One comment about Maruti buying from Pak Suzuki.Last year(foggedabout this year) Maruti manufactured half a million cars for domestic consumption in India alone.Pak Suzuki manufactured 29,500 cars.That`s it.Who should be buying from whom??.Also, about India`s relations with Iran.They have always been excellent and will continue.India`s petroleum reserves are maintained by , surprise!!, the Saudis and crude oil is supplied on a priority basis by the Iranians!!.Now, indian oil companies have gone across the oceans to Ecuador and Venezuela and actually bought oilfields to operate and pump oil for consumption in India.Thanks to hte saudis and the iranians, who supply us at negotiated rates, our oil companies have amassed huge currency reserves to branch out on their own.The IOC, the Indian Oil Corporation is the largest oil company in Asia, bar none.

#39 by sifzal on July 19, 2005 1:53am PT


I do not remember names of the companies exporting those components


mmmkay...just like you don`t remember the names of the paki army generals who were prosecuted for the genocide in 71....

Name one Pakistani company that can hold it`s own in the world..an equivalent to Infosys or Wipro...or reliance or Moser-Baer....

#38

``Name the company. You conveniently dodged the question twice. ``

There are many companies manufacturing and exporting auto components including those for Suzuki in Pakistan. The workshop (1996) I referred to was also attended by many companies, and I do not remember names of the companies exporting those components as that was not the primary motive for me as an organizer and a moderator. Nevertheless, the person who revealed this information in the workshop was, to the best of my memory, Almas Haider (I recall his name because we played tennis once together in Lahore in 1986) who also owns one of such manufacturing plants, and has served one term as the President Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industry (LCCI). I am afraid I do not have his direct numbers any more, but if you are really interested, you should be able to get his contacts through LCCI web site and verify the information I provided.

``It is you who insists on the virtues of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. If they were so good impose on Pakistani public what was imposed in Afghanistan``

OK you request for Iraq like invasion on USA, Australia and India for killing hundreds of thousand of their own people and I will request for Taliban like rule in Pakistan...now this is tit for tat like response and not wish to pursue this sort of discussion, which is not meant for creativeness or knowledge.

sifzal #35

`` I dont know how you have come to this conclusion...but I find it fruitless to continue with you on this issue... ``

It is you who insists on the virtues of Taliban rule in Afghanistan. If they were so good impose on Pakistani public what was imposed in Afghanistan.

````Why don`t name this Pakistani company that manufactured Suzuki components and spare us all this crap. If they were so good they would have found other buyer````

`` Pakistan exported those components to Kporea...it is on record for your information. ``

Name the company. You conveniently dodged the question twice.

````Your statement that ``Pakistan managed them pretty well`` reflects your opinion. It pretty much sums your credibility.````

`` I know its a waste of time...so it over and all from myside...take care and good bye! ``

If you think Pakistan managed the post 1990 transition in Afghanistan well it is your opinion. You are entitled to it. Do not expect everyone to agree with you.